Re: The Gap Between Theory and Practice, Part 2

[once removed]

This thread was split from a previous thread that reached its size limit:
https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=330298.0;all
i think you and i, by and large, are in agreement. im not suggesting you take it (only have couples friends) as a black and white rule. i would suggest an openness to what you can take from it, how you might make it work.

the idea of the two of you having couples friends is not something i imagine would happen over night. its a direction to move in.

part of what hes saying, when it comes to your daughter, when it comes to your friends/acquaintances, is that he wants to be included. part of the inherent problem with that is that youre reasonably hesitant to do so, because hes a total pill, and distrustful. so like you say, damned if you do, damned if you dont. meanwhile it isolates both of you, and his general distrust of others remains the same or grows.

its (having mutual friends, not necessarily limited to that) not something youd want to just jump into, and there will be obstacles. its something you might want to work toward, in ways that work for you, slowly.

or not. just one idea  

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[Bnonymous]

Thanks, once removed.

I think you've summed it up there. One thing though, with him, asking for himself to be included tends to be a first step to asking for the other people to be excluded - first, he asks to come along with me and the other person/people, then he very quickly moves to demanding that they don't come and he and I go alone (as you can see in the museum example). It's like, in his head, once I agree that he can come with me, I've agreed that only he can come with me (even though that's not the case).

Although the relationship is committed and long-term, there are limits to its nature which I would be willing to gradually relax/extend once the relationship is more stable. The situation is that we live separately in different towns, and he stays at mine three nights a week (we do it that way round by mutual agreement, for a variety of practical reasons).

I have shared care of my daughter, and he stays at mine on the nights she is at her dad's. She is 16, going on 17 and so is old enough to have some understanding of mental health issues. His daughter is 11; she lives with her mother and he only sees her occasionally. The two kids are both adamant that they don't wish to meet each other, and we respect their right to choose there; we wouldn't push them into anything that they are uncomfortable with.

It is very important to me that both kids are shielded from the instability of the relationship and that they don't witness any abuse or abnormal levels of arguing. Through trial and error, I have found that he is able to behave in stable ways around my daughter when we are out in public, but not at home - therefore, I include him in outings with my daughter, but not in her home life when she's at my house (he stays here on the nights she stays with her dad).

Regarding his daughter, he doesn't behave stably when the three of us are together, not even when in public. He says verbally abusive things to her, such as "You're not normal. You're not right in the head" (said in contemptuous tones). I find myself unable to stand back and witness that, so I say something like "It is not okay to talk to a child like that, especially not your child". He then starts on me. Then he puts all the blame on his daughter for having "caused trouble" between me and him. This situation is just not acceptable from my point of view, and so I have stopped going out with them now for her sake.

I have explained that to him as "You and I argue a lot and we're a bit on-again, off-again. I don't think it's fair on P to have to see that and I think it could make her feel insecure (C is older so understands better, but P is still only 11). I think it's better for her that you and her use your time together as quality alone time - and I'm sure P loves having her dad all to herself".

He understand this and agrees (fortunately). I have bent the truth a little though by emphasising the difference in age between the girls, rather than pointing out that he behaves better around my daughter than he does his own (there might be a place to tentatively raise that conversation, but not in this context, because then he would probably misinterpret my reluctance to go out with them as a barbed suggestion that P is a bad influence on him - I know how he tends to take things).

I have tried thinking of better ways of approaching this. If I had a separate relationship with his daughter, time alone together with her, then I could keep my mouth shut at the time, and then talk to each of them separately about how what he did was not okay - that might be less embarrassing (and thus less triggering) for him. But I don't have that - she lives quite a distance away and only sees him once or twice a month, so I never see her without him there. I don't feel it's a solution to keep quiet at the time and talk to him about it later if I can't also talk to her. Because then she might think that I was condoning his behaviour towards her, and I don't want to model that or make her think that other adults find it acceptable for her to be treated/spoken to that way.

As things stand, I feel it's much more productive for both of them to spend that time alone together. When it's the three of us, he gets jealous in both directions - he doesn't like his daughter giving me any attention and he doesn't like me giving her any attention. It's like he doesn't want a three-way conversation between all of us - he wants to alternate two-way conversations between him and me, and two-way conversations between him and her. It just doesn't work.

I think he has difficulty in group situations. I'd guess there are a few BPD factors involved there - possessiveness/jealousy (fear of abandonment), paranoia, and maybe the unstable identity issue is at work there too? Maybe he is used to playing different roles, one role with one person and another with another, and he just doesn't know who to be and how to act when presented with more than one person at a time, so gets stressed more easily?

[once removed]

One thing though, with him, asking for himself to be included tends to be a first step to asking for the other people to be excluded - first, he asks to come along with me and the other person/people, then he very quickly moves to demanding that they don't come and he and I go alone

yes, i notice he did that with your daughter. its an uphill battle, to be sure. does it make any difference if you invite him/plan something with him first? maybe a little bit more than "include me", hes saying "make me the priority", in a not so healthy way.

Although the relationship is committed and long-term, there are limits to its nature which I would be willing to gradually relax/extend once the relationship is more stable.

the circumstances with each of your children is pretty tough. are there other limits? do you foresee things becoming more stable?

He understand this and agrees (fortunately). I have bent the truth a little though by emphasising the difference in age between the girls, rather than pointing out that he behaves better around my daughter than he does his own

smart thinking!

[Bnonymous]

That's a really interesting point, onceremoved, thank you. You have made me realise that I've never tried it that way round. I have always just assumed that he won't want to invite other people along on outings we've planned together - maybe I shouldn't have assumed - maybe I should have asked. I will give that a try, thanks.

The limits are that we are not going to live together, get married, or play a step-parent type role in the lives of each other's kids, until things are more stable. Do I foresee that happening? Hmm... .

Tbh, yes. I'm not banking on it and I'm not just here waiting for the pay-off of when things get better - I am here for how they are now, because, despite the problems, there's a lot of good in the relationship (and in him). But, yes, I do foresee things getting better and the relationship growing more stable with time. I think that's because of 1/ the incredible amount of insight and self-awareness he shows when he'd not dysregulated, and 2/ the trust we have in those moments, even though it disappears when he's triggered and/or paranoid. Those things aren't stable at the moment but they are there, and I think they provide a really strong foundation to build on.

And there has been progress. He used to be physical in acting out - smashing things and mild violence - neither of those things has happened for over a year (though he can still be very violent/threatening verbally). On my part, I have tried trusting in his better nature, knowing that even when he says he will do xyz terrible things, he actually won't. Because he's better than that. And I communicate that to him. We are slowly building and showing trust on both sides.

So, yes, I do think things will get more settled and stable. And, once my daughter's flown the nest and his daughter is older, we will be free to make choices about what imperfections we can live with, without having to consider what we'd be making them live with too.

[once removed]

I will give that a try

its worth a shot. no guarantee, of course.

The limits are that we are not going to live together, get married, or play a step-parent type role in the lives of each other's kids, until things are more stable.

it sounds like hes on the same page with this, yes? not pushing to get married or move in together, or be more involved with your daughter, or does he do these things?

[once removed]

hows it going today Bnonymous? any update?

[Bnonymous]

Hi Once Removed,

Things are okay at the moment, thanks. I'm making the most of the calm and the chance to rest and recuperate before the next storm.

Just seen that I missed your earlier question, sorry: yes, we're on the same page about it, fortunately.

[Radcliff]

Hi Bnonymous,

How is your rest and recuperation going?  Do you have any plans over the holiday week?

RC

[Bnonymous]

Hi Radcliff,

I'm in the UK, so it's not holidays here.

As to how it's going: don't ask! *laughs*

Suffice to say, it's been dreadful today. Really bad. To the point where I'm seriously considering moving to the conflicted board.

I might post about it soon, but, for now, I'm trying to give myself a bit of mental space, do my own thing (reading, watching movies, and reading other threads on this board) to try and ground myself and calm down. Then I'll be in a better place to process latest developments and decide whether I want to share them here.

Thank you for asking - I appreciate your concern. This site is incredible - really supportive and validating. Thank you all.

[Bnonymous]

I have now posted about it on the conflicted board.


Bnonymous' follow-on thread can be found here:
https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=331258.0