ASD/Asperger's vs BPD

[Family Court Strategies: When Your Partner Has BPD OR NPD Traits.]

Hi BPD family,

For background, I came here six months ago thinking my H had BPD due to his behaviors in the relationship. I (and he) now think he actually has an autism spectrum disorder (ASD - Asperger Syndrome is currently classed in the DSM as the highest-functioning form of this, but it was previously considered a separate diagnosis). According to the T he saw, my H suffers from general anxiety (now being treated with GABA and melatonin supplements) and separation anxiety. The T did not attempt to diagnose the presence or absence of ASD. He thought that BPD was unlikely.

For a disclaimer, I am not any kind of doctor or therapist, I have just read a lot of books and materials on both these disorders in a very short space of time, and attempted to fit them both to my H's behaviors. The following is a summary of behaviors (not all seen in my H, some based on testimony on this website) that seem to me to be characteristic of both BPD and ASD, those that seem to be characteristic of only one or the other (though there are exceptions), and those reactions of the partner that are similar for both. I hope this may be helpful to someone else who comes to this site thinking they are dealing with an undiagnosed pwBPD and it is actually an ASD. Please correct anything you think is wrong here.

Similar behaviors in BPD and ASD

Verbal abuse
Emotional abuse
Sudden, intense anger over a very minor provocation
Talks to you like they hate you and have contempt for you
Verbally attacks your views, especially if they differ from theirs
Makes hurtful comments
Controlling behaviors
Emotional immaturity
Black and white thinking (ASD: may make immediate and permanent judgements about people, hard to change)
Anxiety
Depression
Catastrophizing (ASD: not paranoia, just worst case logical outcome of situation)
Focusing on the negative in a situation / statement
Critical of you
Sensitive to perceived criticism of them
Accuses you of their behaviors (criticism, attacking, anger, mental issues)
Expects you to act as if their behaviors hadn't taken place
Uses you as an "emotional sponge"
Blames you for issues in the relationship and in their life
Rewrites history, gaslights, selective memory, false accusations
Gives out silent treatment
Behavior is worse in the home and in closest relationship
Sometimes acts out in socially unacceptable ways in a social situation (argument, anger, shouting, refusal to drop complaint, walkout)
Bears grudges for a long time, brings up past negative incidents
Views their own needs as a high priority and yours as a low priority
Focuses only on self and panics/acts helpless/gets angry in a crisis that affects them (may be calm and helpful regarding other people's problems)
Very attentive to you during courtship
Low self-esteem (ASD: probably won't verbalize this to you)
Lack of reciprocation in the relationship
Doesn't admit they are/were wrong
Doesn't take into account the consequences of their actions to others
Justifies own wrong behaviors
Finds parenting stressful, tends to put own needs first in this respect
Similar issues are likely to occur elsewhere in the family (parent, sibling, child)

Common behaviors in BPD that are rare in ASD (with exceptions)

Has periods of highs and lows in themselves and the relationship, the highs are really great and the lows are really bad (ASD: Reasonably constant "meh" to poor level of self-image and relationship)
Lying (ASD: Unconvincing if attempted, inappropriate honesty is more of a problem)
Drinks to excess, takes drugs, smokes
Self-harms or makes suicide attempts or threats
Overspending and reckless spending (ASD: May overspend on a special interest)
Infidelity, adultery, multiple overlapping relationships (ASD: May end up in compromising situations because they misread others' intentions as innocent, are attracted to others' attention, and/or do not know how to define infidelity)
Says explicitly that they hate you or will leave you or divorce you (ASD: You might infer this from their behaviors but they are likely to be offended if you accuse them of thinking this. May "offer" to leave as a logical fix to a stressful relationship situation)
Physically abuses you (ASD: Physical violence is usually isolated and non-extreme, e.g. pushing rather than hitting)
Destroys property/possessions (ASD: Rarely, may break nearest object when angry)

Common behaviors in ASD that are not characteristic of BPD

Takes things said to them very literally
Awkwardness, mistakes, difficulties, or unusual habits in verbal and non-verbal communication
Devotion to one or a series of special interests with obsessive fact-gathering and monologues about them (note, may be a person, and may have been you during courtship)
Solitude is de-stressing
Avoids or is uncomfortable in social situations, especially large ones
Unimaginative
Reticent about physical contact with people
Gives few or no compliments
Creates little sense of intimacy
Sex may be absent, replaced by solo masturbation, present but unvaried or showing no concern for partner's wants, or an obsessive special interest
Takes little or no initiative regarding birthdays, anniversaries, gifting, making social arrangements
Sensory sensitivities (e.g. fussy eating, dislike of certain touch or textures, dislike of certain strong smells, reacts badly in overstimulating environments e.g. shopping mall)
Rigid preferences, attitudes, views and opinions
Needs/enforces routines, may have obsessions
Finds it hard to discuss and empathize with feelings/emotions

Partner reactions to both BPD and ASD

Stress, depression
Loss of sense of self
Walking on eggshells
Caretaking
Loneliness within the relationship
Wonder if you are the problem/crazy
Conceal and rescue partner's behaviors and failings
Think that you cannot confide in others
Cannot trust them to carry out adult responsibilities
Cannot trust them to act appropriately in social situations

As ever I hope that helps,
BetterLanes x

PS On the same Asperger's/ASD online tests as my H, I tested very much neurotypical (non-ASD). This surprised me slightly, but the books say that NT partners may pick up an ASD affect from a long term relationship.

[BetterLanes]

Hi BPD family,

For background, I came here six months ago thinking my H had BPD due to his behaviors in the relationship. I (and he) now think he actually has an autism spectrum disorder (ASD - Asperger Syndrome is currently classed in the DSM as the highest-functioning form of this, but it was previously considered a separate diagnosis). According to the T he saw, my H suffers from general anxiety (now being treated with GABA and melatonin supplements) and separation anxiety. The T did not attempt to diagnose the presence or absence of ASD. He thought that BPD was unlikely.

For a disclaimer, I am not any kind of doctor or therapist, I have just read a lot of books and materials on both these disorders in a very short space of time, and attempted to fit them both to my H's behaviors. The following is a summary of behaviors (not all seen in my H, some based on testimony on this website) that seem to me to be characteristic of both BPD and ASD, those that seem to be characteristic of only one or the other (though there are exceptions), and those reactions of the partner that are similar for both. I hope this may be helpful to someone else who comes to this site thinking they are dealing with an undiagnosed pwBPD and it is actually an ASD. Please correct anything you think is wrong here.

Similar behaviors in BPD and ASD

Verbal abuse
Emotional abuse
Sudden, intense anger over a very minor provocation
Talks to you like they hate you and have contempt for you
Verbally attacks your views, especially if they differ from theirs
Makes hurtful comments
Controlling behaviors
Emotional immaturity
Black and white thinking (ASD: may make immediate and permanent judgements about people, hard to change)
Anxiety
Depression
Catastrophizing (ASD: not paranoia, just worst case logical outcome of situation)
Focusing on the negative in a situation / statement
Critical of you
Sensitive to perceived criticism of them
Accuses you of their behaviors (criticism, attacking, anger, mental issues)
Expects you to act as if their behaviors hadn't taken place
Uses you as an "emotional sponge"
Blames you for issues in the relationship and in their life
Rewrites history, gaslights, selective memory, false accusations
Gives out silent treatment
Behavior is worse in the home and in closest relationship
Sometimes acts out in socially unacceptable ways in a social situation (argument, anger, shouting, refusal to drop complaint, walkout)
Bears grudges for a long time, brings up past negative incidents
Views their own needs as a high priority and yours as a low priority
Focuses only on self and panics/acts helpless/gets angry in a crisis that affects them (may be calm and helpful regarding other people's problems)
Very attentive to you during courtship
Low self-esteem (ASD: probably won't verbalize this to you)
Lack of reciprocation in the relationship
Doesn't admit they are/were wrong
Doesn't take into account the consequences of their actions to others
Justifies own wrong behaviors
Finds parenting stressful, tends to put own needs first in this respect
Similar issues are likely to occur elsewhere in the family (parent, sibling, child)

Common behaviors in BPD that are rare in ASD (with exceptions)

Has periods of highs and lows in themselves and the relationship, the highs are really great and the lows are really bad (ASD: Reasonably constant "meh" to poor level of self-image and relationship)
Lying (ASD: Unconvincing if attempted, inappropriate honesty is more of a problem)
Drinks to excess, takes drugs, smokes
Self-harms or makes suicide attempts or threats
Overspending and reckless spending (ASD: May overspend on a special interest)
Infidelity, adultery, multiple overlapping relationships (ASD: May end up in compromising situations because they misread others' intentions as innocent, are attracted to others' attention, and/or do not know how to define infidelity)
Says explicitly that they hate you or will leave you or divorce you (ASD: You might infer this from their behaviors but they are likely to be offended if you accuse them of thinking this. May "offer" to leave as a logical fix to a stressful relationship situation)
Physically abuses you (ASD: Physical violence is usually isolated and non-extreme, e.g. pushing rather than hitting)
Destroys property/possessions (ASD: Rarely, may break nearest object when angry)

Common behaviors in ASD that are not characteristic of BPD

Takes things said to them very literally
Awkwardness, mistakes, difficulties, or unusual habits in verbal and non-verbal communication
Devotion to one or a series of special interests with obsessive fact-gathering and monologues about them (note, may be a person, and may have been you during courtship)
Solitude is de-stressing
Avoids or is uncomfortable in social situations, especially large ones
Unimaginative
Reticent about physical contact with people
Gives few or no compliments
Creates little sense of intimacy
Sex may be absent, replaced by solo masturbation, present but unvaried or showing no concern for partner's wants, or an obsessive special interest
Takes little or no initiative regarding birthdays, anniversaries, gifting, making social arrangements
Sensory sensitivities (e.g. fussy eating, dislike of certain touch or textures, dislike of certain strong smells, reacts badly in overstimulating environments e.g. shopping mall)
Rigid preferences, attitudes, views and opinions
Needs/enforces routines, may have obsessions
Finds it hard to discuss and empathize with feelings/emotions

Partner reactions to both BPD and ASD

Stress, depression
Loss of sense of self
Walking on eggshells
Caretaking
Loneliness within the relationship
Wonder if you are the problem/crazy
Conceal and rescue partner's behaviors and failings
Think that you cannot confide in others
Cannot trust them to carry out adult responsibilities
Cannot trust them to act appropriately in social situations

As ever I hope that helps,
BetterLanes x

PS On the same Asperger's/ASD online tests as my H, I tested very much neurotypical (non-ASD). This surprised me slightly, but the books say that NT partners may pick up an ASD affect from a long term relationship.

[BetterLanes]

PPS, Special disclaimer for Red5! Don't take anything here as any criticism of your autistic S31, who is a holy innocent before God. This is about the ASD person whose level of functioning is such that they seem just "eccentric" or "shy" or "a bit odd" at first, and get into long-term romantic relationships, and the effects of the unrecognised or unacknowledged ASD traits on that relationship. Your S31 has had the benefit of a (presumably early) diagnosis, and I can see from what you write about his life and his relationship with you that he has had loving and appropriate expectations, training, help and life management to be the best person he can be.

BetterLanes x

[Red5]

PPS, Special disclaimer for Red5

Hey BetterLanes!

Absolutely no worries... .autism and aspergers are both points on the galactic spectrum... .a person can have some or all or most traits... .there are endless variations... .extremely interesting to study and try to understand... .

My Son’s “official dx” is mental retardation (mild) autism, developmentally delayed.

He has a “dislocation” of part of his DNA strand/chromosomes?

He was dx with Craniosynostosis and was declared “developmentally delayed” at age three, later autistic.

If I had to describe him as far as his daily demeanor and behavior... .I’d say he is a mixed configuration of Forrest Gump,  Raymond “The Rain Man” Babbitt, and the Arnie Grape character from the film “What’s Eating Gilbert Grape”... .

My Son is just the most likable, sweat and loving soul... .completely inocent and content in his world of stuffed animals... .fire trucks and steam trains... .and eighteen wheelers : )

Although he is a child in a grown mans body, he’s very powerful and strong... .sometimes he does get into trouble... .he likes to “crush things” as he is simulating what he sees on one of his fav tv shows... .“highway through hell”... .“Jamie Davis and his heavy wrecker show on the weather channel “... .Jacob will also watch endless YouTube videos of real steam locomotives... .if I were to let him... .he is also a huge country misic fan, Mrs. Faith Hill being his all time fav, most times no matter who is on the radio... .’he can name the artist singer’ immediately !

As we presently sitting in our fav hibachi grill joint... .He just polished off some California rolls and a whole plate of yaki soba : )

This pretty much what he is like most days

Love y’all !

Red5

[Baglady]

Hi Betterlanes,
In my professional life, I work extensively with a wide range of students on the autism spectrum (both low and high functioning).  Prior to my divorce from exBPDh, I really wrestled with the "Does my ex have autism" question because so much matched an ASD diagnosis but ultimately, I discounted this notion because it never quite fit.  I had never heard of BPD prior to my exBPDh's breakdown so I had no knowledge of this disorder.  I've been extensively researching BPD for the past year and while I see some overlap between ASD and BPD, the main divider in my experience is that people with BPD have an ability to lie and manipulate people to benefit themselves in a way that people with ASD simply do not (although I can't say if this skill in BPD's is intentional or not).  People with ASD are very guileless and authentic in their interactions and simply don't know/or don't care about how to play to an audience and how their behavior comes across to others.  My exBPDh knew exactly how he presented to others and he is very careful to groom his image and promote his personal reputation in a very self-serving way.  However, in my experience, people with both disorders are ultimately very challenged with regard to understanding and managing typical social interactions.
Just my 2 cents.
Warmly,
B

[Turkish]

People with ASD are very guileless and authentic in their interactions and simply don't know/or don't care about how to play to an audience and how their behavior comes across to others. 

Aside from the hyper-focusing and stimming as anxiety reduction,  I'd say that the above is ast the core of ASD. My son, not quite 9 and on third grade, is well described by what Baglady quoted, also how Red5 describes his son. He was Dx'd with ASD1 when I he was 6. He's the kindest kid though (and wicked smart), but misses a lot.  Working with him helps and he's gotten better at eye contact,  for instance. 

I don't think it would be helpful for me to go through your list, BetterLanes, and cross things off.   My son is still young and we will face challenges about how his ASD1 (what they used to call Asperger's) will affect him.  That being said,  I imagined how it would be if my BPD mother had raised me if I had ASD1. I think she would have destroyed me. 

My ex is maybe 75% good with him,  but see has her moments.  I'll still hear the,  "you need to quit crying and toughen up!" Machisma. Or when he locked them out off the condo by accident this summer and he couldn't stop laughing.  He even articulates that he doesn't like that he can't stop laughing sometimes.  She slammed his leg with her coffee mug hard enough to bruise him. He cried like the Dickens. She felt guilty enough to take him to the doctor and be truthful. 

My mom criticized me after one of his meltdowns  in the car over not getting ice cream.  She said,  "the problem with kids these days is that parents aren't hard enough on them!" She expected me to pull over and spank or smack the crap out of him.  I did yell when he was kicking my seat hard (and yelling made it worse), but I let him go to his room and be angry when we got home.  It's usually about 20 minutes and then he calms himself.  He was right as rain not soon after. 

My point is that someone with ASD can be made much worse growing up in an invalidating or abusive household.  I've experienced verbal abuse and hitting when he's triggered (it's getting a lot better). I can imagine a child with ASD learning that this "works" to cope,  much like a pwBPD learns that lying helps them survive. Translated into an adult,  I can see how it might seem BPD like. 

That all being said,  the validation and communication tools here can help, as they can with anybody. 

[BetterLanes]

Thanks Red5, Baglady and Turkish!

Red5,

there are endless variations ... .extremely interesting to study and try to understand ... .

Absolutely, one of the authors I read likes to say "If you've met one person with autism, you've met one person with autism". You and his caregivers know the score and it sounds like your son has a wonderful life.

Baglady, thank you, that's very interesting. I hadn't heard of BPD either and it initially seemed like a good match, like ASD seemed for your H. I would agree about the authenticity, whenever I say to my H something like "I thought you meant... ." he responds "I'm not clever enough to use double meanings". This from a man with a PhD. He also struggles to make any modifications to his behavior in response to a situation/audience, which makes me feel I need to be responsible for managing his behavior in that situation. He does sometimes say very hurtful things to me if he is not getting something he wants, but I don't know if this is manipulative as such, it's more like a combination of having no filters and using what is logically his "best shot" at getting something he wants.

Turkish, thanks for sharing. I understand that children like your son who get diagnosed early now do very well because of the appropriate help and support they get. Regarding adult relationships, the books I read say if the presence of an ASD is known and acknowledged by both partners from the start of a relationship, the relationship works much better. One key is for the partner to not tolerate from the start any behaviors they find unacceptable, otherwise these can easily become habits. It also means the partner can understand how to communicate clearly for best results, and understand things like a need for solitude or discomfort with social stuff are not personal. The lists I wrote were referring to the results of an undiagnosed ASD in an adult relationship. My H is in what they call the "diagnosis gap" where there was insufficient awareness of higher functioning ASD during his childhood, so no specific support was given. He also transitioned straight from living at home to being in a relationship with me (we met literally on our first day at university) so he has always had an "executive assistant" available to help with practical, emotional, and social needs. Things would have been very different in our relationship if he had had a diagnosis and we had had the knowledge that is available today.

BetterLanes x

[formflier]

BetterLanes,

I struggled with the Dx issue for a while.  

I'm wondering how things change for you (or maybe they don't) if they said it is X and not BPD?

Certainly if you think the doctors are missing something or have something completely wrong... I could see how that matters, but it appears to me that the issues are being acknowledged... .yet the providers come to a conclusion other than BPD.

Do I have that pretty much right?

I like the thoughtful way you are working through this and posting the issues!  Makes it much easier for "T" (ESTJ) guys like me to follow and understand your story.

FF

[SweetCharlotte]

Thanks so much, BetterLanes! Your lists ring so true that my jaw simply dropped.

My exH has an autistic spectrum disorder (probably high-functioning, but he has never wanted to go in for a diagnosis; he lives a marginal existence, is under-employed for his educational level, and is a hoarder). My S21 with him is diagnosed as mild Asperger's (now called Autism Level 1). My current H is uBPD.

So I am intimately acquainted with the challenges of all three "men in my life." These lists are gospel. My son cannot seem to get a relationship started with ANY female, despite being very attractive and intelligent. He has special musical talents, like many with Asperger's. He composes beautiful pieces of music, and already has a copyright or two.

My uBPDh, as the lists show, knows how he is coming off, is able to be charming and impressive in the idealization phase. Then the instabilities set in.

I feel that if my son could just get started with a young lady who is low-maintenance and loves music too, he might be able to have a good relationship. As for my uBPDh, I am stuck with him; I feel the burnout described in the list about partners' feelings. Incidentally, I test positive for some BPD and ASD traits; I guess this is how I wound up with these men in my life. Love'em or leave'em.

[BetterLanes]

Hi Sweet Charlotte,

Thank you! I am glad you thought the lists were good, you are in an excellent position to know, as you say.

Regarding your son, I was reading that Aspie men often find relationships through a shared special interest. You might want to give him this book:
What Men with Asperger Syndrome Want to Know About Women, Dating and Relationships
by Maxine Aston (Author), Tony Attwood (Foreword)
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00CQ8OBUE/ref=dp-kindle-redirect?_encoding=UTF8&btkr=1
I have not read it myself but I have read her books "Aspergers in Love" and "The Other Half of Asperger Syndrome", which are directed at women, and they were very good. I wouldn't recommend those to your son, get the one above that is designed as a handbook for Aspie men. The materials I have read for women are more around the problems and solutions in relationships where the man with an ASD has not been diagnosed before. They all say that if the man and woman involved are aware of the diagnosis from the start of the relationship and aware of appropriate corrective measures, the relationship can be very rewarding for both. A simple example is for the woman to always ask directly for what she wants rather than dropping hints... .that would probably improve most relationships anyway

The books I read for women are:
Asperger Marriage and Relationships - Insights from the Front Line by Karen Slee (aka Rowlands)
(I have given this to my H also as it is written for both partners, and he identifies with the man in it, but doesn't like his wife's attitude. I don't recommend it for your son - she is trying to get the message across to her previously undiagnosed husband about the problems that caused in the relationship, hence the attitude. It is very good though.)
Walking on Eggshells - Confessions from an Asperger Marriage and how we made it work, by Karen Slee (aka Rowlands)
(The other Walking on Eggshells! This is her autobiography about the marriage.)
Aspergers in Love - Maxine Aston
The Other Half of Asperger Syndrome - Maxine Aston
The Complete Guide to Asperger Syndrome - Tony Attwood
Alone Together - Making an Asperger Marriage Work by Katrin Bentley (mainly autobiographical)

All the best to you and your son!

Hope that helps,
BetterLanes x

[BetterLanes]

Hi Formflier,

Thanks for replying! My H only had six T sessions and the T didn't attempt to diagnose and treat anything beyond the anxiety and presenting relationship issues. He did say based on his experience he thought it was definitely not BPD. So we have not had any formal diagnosis. However, my H scored very high on the pretty reputable AQ test (https://www.wired.com/2001/12/aqtest/ and other places) - his score was 40, well above the cutoff for a likelihood of an ASD, and mine was 14, similar to the neurotypical control group. His results on the Aspie Quiz (www.rdos.net/eng/Aspie-quiz.php) were less clear and said he had a mix of traits. He was hampered on that quiz by the fact that a fair number of the questions are about romantic relationships and he has only ever really had one!

Things that I think are important regarding having a correct working model/probable diagnosis are:
- My H identifies with ASD/Asperger's but not with BPD. He suggested ASD himself. He is therefore willing to read, and identifies with, materials offering solutions.
- In activities such as therapy, relationship counselling, and relationship discussions it is important to take into account the differences in thinking and perception of pwASD.
- It helps with my understanding of my H's behaviors and prediction of his reactions. For example, his reactions to my first raising relationship issues were different to what I predicted on the basis of a BPD model. It is most helpful to use the model that gives the best explanations and predictions.
- A best fit label is important if the eventual outcome is an annulment process.
- I have had lots of wonderful support and learning and working through of things from you all on this board, and from reading your stories and statements, but there are other support communities for partners of pwASD and I plan to move my online relationship researching/venting to one of those shortly. So I never will have to pick between a move to Bettering or Detaching in the end!

BetterLanes x

[formflier]

I suppose the thing I would want you to consider deeply is if your reaction/action to presenting behaviors should be different based on ASD versus BPD.

My broad understanding is that they wouldn't be different... which is the source of my comments of focus on the behavior... .let the professionals worry about Dx an if that matters.

I would suspect that within ASD there are lots of nuances.  I would suggest the most helpful thing is to get a therapist that can understand and guide your husband as best as possible.  Most importantly... that same therapist can educate you about your husbands likely reactions to situations and what change is probable... and what change is unlikely.

I'm blessed to have such a relationship with my P.  She has spent enough time with my wife and has enough experience in these things to accurately predict my wife's reactions... .and suggest courses of action for me. 

Sometimes you would think my P had been a fly on the wall to a conversation... based on how accurately she can predict what my wife does.

For my wife... .something about her childhood left her highly triggered at being wrong.  So... .anytime I need to take a stand about my wife being wrong... .I "bubble wrap" it and/or realize I'm in a mindfield. 

Whatever I can do to avoid those conversations and leave those judgments about herself up to her... .calm things in our relationship.

FF

[SweetCharlotte]

Regarding your son, I was reading that Aspie men often find relationships through a shared special interest. You might want to give him this book:
What Men with Asperger Syndrome Want to Know About Women, Dating and Relationships
by Maxine Aston (Author), Tony Attwood (Foreword)
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00CQ8OBUE/ref=dp-kindle-redirect?_encoding=UTF8&btkr=1

Thank you, BetterLanes! I have just ordered him the book as a holiday present. Since Amazon currently has a $5 discount on book orders $20 and over, I added a book by a man with Asperger's who works in special education, called DECODING DATING. It sounded good too.
I'm sure my S21 will eventually thank you too!

[BetterLanes]

Hi Sweet Charlotte, that's great! I hope your son and his future partner find the books useful

Hi Formflier, thanks for your reply. I was waiting to respond because I was due a counsellor appointment today but she didn't phone. My H believes he has finished with therapy for now (meaning: unless I leave him) and that I need to work on my issues - in fact he was yelling this at me just the other day. His anxiety medications are working well, but they aren't attitude medications, and he still doesn't really own his responsibility for the relationship issues. Everything I say about my part in these comes back out of his mouth as blame very soon on (an example was about 1 hour from telling him that "things are complicated" in my head, to him saying that if we did break up he should ask for full custody of DD11 because I am "wrong in the head"). I'm sure there are other women who would have done better than me in terms of managing and reacting to his behaviors and keeping their spirits up and whatnot, but that doesn't make the things he has done my fault, and he doesn't really get this yet.

I hear what you say about avoiding difficult conversations and keeping things calm, but this is not the stage in the relationship at which to do that. Every time I am able to tell my H some piece of truth which I have never told him before (or not in a situation where he would listen to it) it feels wonderful. I'm currently trying to make a choice as to whether to end this, and if I don't I know I will need to manage behaviors and avoid triggers and enforce boundaries and all these other things for the next 25 years, and then I can focus on learning how to do that. Right now, it's about gradually getting the truth out from inside me where it's been hidden, now that I know (since May) that the likely outcomes of this do not include committing a mortal sin, which I thought they did. Apart from that, bring it all on as far as I'm concerned.

BetterLanes x

[formflier]

I hear what you say about avoiding difficult conversations and keeping things calm, but this is not the stage in the relationship at which to do that. Every time I am able to tell my H some piece of truth which I have never told him before (or not in a situation where he would listen to it) it feels wonderful.

I'm glad you husband is enjoying hearing your truth and feels wonderful about it.  Do I have this right?

Does his counselor agree this is the proper time to be telling him these things? 

Does your counselor agree this is the proper time for you to be telling him these things?

Regarding him being done with his counseling.  Are you, he and all counselors in mutual agreement?

How much time do you guys spend discussing what goes on in your therapy?   When you discuss that... what strategies do you use to avoid the blame game so you can each talk about your own issues?

FF

[lostandconfused6]

I made a post a couple weeks ago regarding Aspergers VS BPD and if they are often co morbid? or if they get the diagnoses mixed up often. My now (as of 3 days ago) EX pwBPD was diagnosed with BPD but something always seemed off because there were a couple of the big symptoms that he never fit into but i chalked it up to everyone being dif. and not all pwBPD having the same things. Then i started really noticing his inability to talk about anything but 3 or 4 subjects and couldn't make small talk to save his life VERY socially awkward and about 100 other things that fell into Aspergers. I'll post the link below of the article that made the light bulb go off for me

 www.heartlessaspergers.com/how-to-spot-a-man-with-aspergers-syndrome/

Just a brief story of  why he is recently my EX. My friend happened to pass his house and a girls car was there, a girl that he has history with and always seemed to keep popping up, that he swore he was done with because she is such a low life and he would never hurt me like that. I sent him the picture he denied it said he didn't know whose car that was then threatened to kill me and my son and all my friends because they were starting s*it. There is a lot more threats that he made towards me but that's the very short version of it. Still after all that never admitted to what he did.

[BetterLanes]

Thanks lostandconfused6! I didn't see your post, which board was it on? I will take a look. I'll read some more on that website too, that article is very interesting. I am sorry to hear about what your ex said, that is very nasty stuff.

Formflier, ah no, unfortunately you don't have that right  I feel wonderful. He doesn't like it at all, but he listens now, which he wouldn't have before. Usually the response is stating some problem that I have, but he heard it. To clarify:
My H and his T agreed that there was no more work they needed to do at the moment - the T stopped diagnosing at anxiety, and didn't investigate Aspergers. They (H and T) are essentially waiting on me to clarify the relationship status before taking further action. The T is pretty harsh to him and about me, and it is him that set my H to focusing on my childhood issues and blaming those for the relationship issues.
My MC asked me to quit with my individual T which I did. We have not gotten a very long way with those calls yet (2 so far). She is also focusing on choice at the moment. I have not told my H the content of these sessions. He has reached the stage where he is able to listen without immediately voicing blame and objections in the moment, but as I said he still turns it all back on me either in the course of the same conversation or in subsequent conversations. It's like whatever I reveal to him about myself is just chucked straight into a box marked "Ammunition" in his head and brought out in response to my statements. That's a strategy I guess, and mine in response is to duck and cover... .all very amateurish and conflict escalating.

BetterLanes x

[formflier]

So... to clarify... .are all the Ts you guys are involved with in agreement that you should be telling your husband things that make him feel "bad" and you feel "good"?

Are those things told in a session or some sort of structure?

Have you had a session with your husband's T and heard that T's judgments directly from him?  Same question for your husband... has he heard directly from T's involved with you?

Is there a MC involved that talks to both of you guys and helps you communicate?

So... .can you look back on where you started (you pick that) and share with us what you have learned  and applied to get a positive change in the relationship?

What do you think your husband would say if asked the same question?

FF

[BetterLanes]

Hi FF,

My H has told me a reasonable amount of what his T said, and it was clear that his T wanted me to give my H an honest statement of my feelings and position towards the relationship. He sent my H home after one session with three homework questions to ask me about how I saw the future of the relationship at the outset, how I see it now, and another one I forget now, but the point was he said I should be open with my H. We haven't talked to each other's Ts. No formal joint sessions, no assistance with communication.

Being open with my H has actually made a positive change in the relationship in terms of things changing. To what goal is still up in the air, but before I spoke up my H had no idea there was a problem in the marriage (his words) and I was dying of compliance. My options were:

(1) Just leave, and not bother telling him any truth (I seriously considered this, but decided it wasn't fair to do that without ever having raised any issues to his face in a significant way that he couldn't immediately deny or write off)
(2) Stay put for the moment and tell him some truth and see what happens and what changes as a result of that
(3) Stay put indefinitely and carry on not raising any issues as before (that hurt so much that the only reason I was able to sustain this was that I believed it was what God wanted, but when I found out that wasn't the case there was no longer any compelling reason to do this option)

I hope you can see from this that telling the truth to my H is an important part of my chosen course of action (2). I have never liked the idea of manipulating my H into better behaviors without his conscious consent by a system of rewards and boundaries. That approach means it's still always on me to manage his behaviors, just by a more proactive and empowering method than compliance which I did before. I need him to be able to acknowledge and manage his own behaviors. He is making some progress on this but also with large negative reactions in the mix, and it is too early to tell if this will (or can, considering the probable ASD) be a permanent or pervasive change.

BetterLanes x

[formflier]

Have you had a session with your husbands T... .or has all your information been "filtered" through your hubby?

Is there a joint T or MC involved?

I get what you are saying and generally agree with what is going on as you sort things out. 

In my opinion... it's just as bad for one person to stuff feelings to keep the peace (broad description of what seemed to be going on for most of your marriage) as it is for one person to "tell their truth" and the other person to feel bad about it.

What I would think is the helpful thing is for you to tell your truth... your hubby feels bad.  You also tell your truth to the T... .and your hubby tells the T why and how that makes him feel bad.

From that I think there could be a lot of growth and understanding of the dynamics and "real" feedback.  It's likely you should alter your delivery and he should alter his reception.

A  I've seen pop up a time on two in your threads is where a therapist supposedly informs a person that the issue is the other person (your hubby's T telling your hubby you are the problem... or your childhood) and then you hubby informing you of this.

My best guess is your hubby didn't understand the lesson the T was trying to teach.  If you were periodically involved... .this could be straightened out.

Last thing for you.  I'm not at all suggesting you don't share your truth... .I'm much more interested in how you share your truth. 

FF

[lostandconfused6]

It was on bettering a relationship.