Sister is BPD and refuses therapy

[turquoise1]

My sister has been visiting my mother's house ( where I currently live) for the last week.  I am just a ball of nerves is all I can say.  She has two children- 4 and 1.  I wake up in the night to the baby crying and her yelling "shut the f*** up" to the baby.  My mom realizes there is a problem, but refuses to address it.  My mother is afraid she will not get to see her grandchildren if she "upsets" my sister.  My sister is mean, manipulative, and a bully.  Last Thanksgiving she exploded at me for no reason, then let the air out of my SIL's tires so that we couldn't leave.  When she doesn't get her "way" she threatens suicide.  I am really considering cutting ties with her due to the fact that she is so toxic.  My heart just aches for her children, and I am wondering if anyone has experienced anything similar or has ideas. Thanks!

[Harri]

Hi Turquoise and welcome.  I am sorry for what brings you here but glad you found us.  As you read more, you will find there are many who are in similar situations with their BPD family member and we all pull together and support each other.

It is hard to hear that your sister behaves the way she does and especially hard to hear that she is yelling at her kids.  What is your relationship like with her children?  Your mothers fear is not uncommon and unfortunately it is all too common that saying something causes a rift... .but not saying something enables the abuse.  It is a tough place to be for sure.

I understand the desire to cut contact with your sister.  Several here have done so so again, you are not alone.  I hope as you read more and post in other peoples threads you will find some way to making a decision about what is right for you. 

Again, welcome.

[turquoise1]

Harri,
        Thank you so much for your reply.  My nieces and I are somewhat close, but they live in South Florida so I only see them a few times a year.  That sounds like not much, but when my sister "visits" it is always for a couple of weeks, then she extends her visits.  I feel like this is a form of manipulation and control as well.  My mom says she "knows" there is a problem, but says it is a double edged sword.  I want a relationship with my nieces, but cannot keep having my life in shambles around every holiday, etc.
         Again, Thank you

[Harri]

A visit for a few weeks a couple times a year sounds like a lot to deal with.

When she is yelling at the kids are you able to walk away?  Often when we start to set limits there will be push back from the pwBPD.  It makes it difficult as the behaviors escalate and cause more problems.  But limits and boundaries can work when we make them so they apply to our choices.  So if she is yelling at you, rather than say 'don't yell at me' and expect her to stop, you say 'I can't listen to you when you are yelling at me.  I would be happy to listen when you can talk to me without yelling' and then you get up and walk away.  I am just throwing out an example.  I am not sure what will work for you.  The important thing is making your boundary around your personal values and enforcing it with an action that you can actually control:  your behavior.  The other vital thing to know about boundaries is that you must be consistent with them.  Intermittent enforcement just reinforces the behavior and you will see an increase in it, so stand firm.

Does that make sense?  Are you already familiar with boundaries?  I am just wondering if this is something you have tried as the situation sounds quite troubling.

[turquoise1]

Hi- thank you for the reply.  I am familiar with boundaries and have a career as a school counselor ( interestingly enough). I guess I just have the problem applying them in my life and this particular situation. When she yells at the kids it is usually in a situation that I can't escape ( in the car, in the middle of the night while I am sleeping, etc).  This time she came to my parents' she demanded that I give her my bedroom.  There are 3 bedrooms upstairs, one of which is mine.  I practiced standing my ground and boundaries with her this visit.  I simply told her that this wouldn't work for me, and she would have to make the other 2 bedrooms work for her and the girls.  She has done everything she could think of to push me into leaving my room, but I have not.  She is leaving on Wednesday thankfully!

[Harri]

Yep, it is totally different when applying boundaries and knowledge to our own situations!  I get that.

I am glad she will be leaving soon.  That she feels entitled to your room kind of says it all about her mindset.  Great work on saying no.  I imagine it must not have been easy. 

Have you shared with your mom that you think your sister has BPD?  I ask because we have a board for people with a son or daughter who have BPD that she might benefit by reading.  Just a thought.  I think when it comes to yelling in the middle of the night your mom has the right to say it is not allowed in her house... .but as you said she is reluctant to say anything.

Such a tough situation. 

Will she be visiting for the next round of holidays?

[turquoise1]

Oh dear! I can't even fathom thinking she will visit the next round of holidays.  My mom just refuses to say anything about anything bc she walks on eggshells.  Any time my sister doesn't like what she hears from a family member, etc. she threatens suicide.  When I moved with my parents over the summer she threatened suicide.  It's her go to if she's jealous, doesn't like what she hears, or feels she isn't getting enough attention.  I asked my mom if she heard the yelling- she says she didn't because her bedroom is downstairs.  In the last month or so, she fabricated a story that my 4 year old niece was "molested" at her preschool by another 4 year old in the bathroom.  Called and cussed them out, called DCS, and threatened to sue the school ( which is a synagogue).  When my mom said she didn't want to discuss this, my sister threatened suicide again and didn't speak to my mom for over a week.  She never apologizes for her behavior ( or even acknowledges it)  she just pretends as if it never happened.  I guess that was about three weeks ago, then she just calls my mom letting her know when she'll be arriving.

[Harri]

I am curious what you say after she threatens suicide? 

It is unfortunate that she reported that her daughter was molested by another 4 year old.  Do you think it really happened? 

[turquoise1]

No- it didn’t happen. Her 4 year old walked in the bathroom while the other 4 year old was using the bathroom and she saw him.

[turquoise1]

She hasn’t threatened suicide with me in quite some time, but does with my mom and brother. He will report to me- I just tell him or my mom to call the police which they never do. Since she doesn’t say it to me, should I just call the police myself? I know the obligations to report ( as does my brother). He is a therapist, so he knows the drill.

[Panda39]

Hi turquoise1,

If this were me I would call the police, not calling to me is enabling the behavior.  If this happens again you might just call and tell them your sister said xyz to your brother, you are concerned and could they do a wellness check. By calling you get professionals involved in your sisters care and you are sure that she is safe. Getting professionals involved takes you (your family) out of caretaker mode.  Be prepared to be the bad guy though. 

Is your sister married?  Is the kids dad in their lives? Do you feel the kids are safe in her care?

I also agree with Harri about boundaries they are a key tool and nice job holding your ground around your bedroom. 

Those false allegations are concerning, if she will do that to a 4 year old she will do that to others.

In terms of going no contact that is an option, but there is a lot in between full contact and no contact.  How often are you typically in contact with your sister?  Where do you have the most difficulty? 

Panda39

[turquoise1]

That’s the thing she IS married, but he never comes
With her. It’s like he dumps her on us and wants to  take no
Responsibilities for his kids. No, I absolutely do not think the children are safe with her... I asked my mom again today if she heard all of the yelling last night. She said she didn’t but I was welcome to sleep downstairs in the guest room. She is MISSING THE POINT! The yelling is very concerning. Especially “shut the f—- up “to a 16 mo old! So my mom’s philosophy basically is if I don’t  like it, just move downstairs. I guess that’s the denial that’s easier for her? Easier or not it is wrong and deeply disturbing. Yes! I am definitely concerned for the children.

[Pina colada]

Hi turquoise.  Sound like a challenging situation for you.  The holidays can be so stressful when one has a disordered family member.  It sounds like she puts you in impossible situations and it is probably intentional.  Cluster B personality disorders are the worst.  These people are so unhappy and they have deep scars of hurt.  Remember, "hurt people, HURT people" and so it goes misery loves company.  I know in my family, my mom stood up to sister later in life and has passed away.  Once my mom stood up to my disordered sister, my sister launched a terrible smear campaign against her.  It continues now even though mom has been gone 14 years.  My dad was more like your mom.  He had uNPD traits and while he knew something was off with sis, he kind did what your mom is doing.  He passed last year and sis makes him out to be a saint.  Mind you, she never helped or visited when he was sick and dying, and skipped out on his funeral.  As soon as she got her hands on his money, her whole demeanor changed, so happy.  I hope you can manage Christmas.  Please post here, great support.

[Panda39]

That’s the thing she IS married, but he never comes
With her. It’s like he dumps her on us and wants to  take no
Responsibilities for his kids.

Do you think he might need a break from her so he takes one when she visits you?  Is it possible that she might tell him to stay home?  Do you think your sister may not "allow" him much interaction with the kids?  Do you think he's a disinterested dad or a worn down dad or an alienated parent? 

I ask the above questions because I have read many stories of fathers that come here and their BPD spouses control a lot of what goes on in the home, to the point that some of them cut off their own families of origin, you see her controlling behaviors when she visits you, you grew up with her so you probably have an idea of what it's like living with her day in and day out.

She comes and rules with FOG (Fear, Obligation, Guilt) or emotional blackmail.  In my personal situation my SO's uBPDxw rules her children with Guilt in particular and it sounds like your sister uses Fear.  Everyone is afraid of her having a rage explosion or that she will take the children away (your mom... .her husband?) or she will hurt herself.

More on FOG... .
https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=82926.0

Why is it that no one calls the police when she makes a suicide threat... .Fear.

What if she made a suicide threat and the police were called?  She gets taken to the Emergency Room, she might get referred to inpatient treatment, professionals get involved with her care and her family (which in turn helps her kids) and she is kept safe. In my opinion Suicide Threats should always be taken seriously. 

What if you created a boundary around these threats... .every time she makes one you call the police.  You are no longer enabling the behavior, she no longer gets the reward of everyone's attention, she gets help, and she is kept safe.  Will she like you, probably not pwBPD are often black and white thinkers you would likely be painted black, will she punish you by not allow you to see her kids possibly, will she cut contact with you, she might those are her choices and you can't control her choices.  What you can control is what you do.  If you are already considering going no contact with her what do you have to lose by taking the bull by the horns?

How likely do you think those suicide threats would continue if she found the police at her door every time?

More on boundaries... .
https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=61684.0
https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=167368.0

I know what I'm suggesting is pretty big, very hard, could lead to "crisis", but a crisis is not necessarily a bad thing. This is only my opinion and my suggestion, but to me it is the most direct route to getting her the help she needs. There are other ways you could go approach this... .other boundaries, using validation to attempt to de-escalate her, don't JADE (Justify, Argue, Defend, Explain) in other words don't feed the drama, communication tools etc.  All of these tools can be used at anytime and we can help you with those too.

Or you can just be done, and go no contact sometimes that is what we have to do to protect ourselves.  One of my SO's daughters has been no contact with her uBPDmother for the last 3 years.  It isn't easy and comes with it's own set of problems but it is what she has had to do to protect herself and I support her decision no matter what kind of relationship she chooses to have or not have with her mom.

There are a lot of options and ways to approach this I'm just throwing one idea out there.  I know other members will have ideas and suggestions too.

Yikes!  Gotta get ready for work.

Panda39

[turquoise1]

Panda,
         Thank you for all of the information. I have been in a Suicide prevention training for work the last 2 days . I agree with calling the police every time she makes a threat. She just left today after being here for 10 days and holding everyone emotionallg hostage. My relationship with my mom is strained bc of this. I have talked to her about the bully’s behavior, and she just wants to avoid all of it. I know she knows there is a problem but refuses to address it. My sister’s husband came here last night after a job interview nearby . Even though he had a rental car, my sister insisted my mom drive  her to the airport ( 120 miles round trip) and follow him in the rental bc she didn’t want to check the car seats. This is the most ridiculous demand yet.
Then, I come home from work today and find all of the upstairs bedrooms rearranged. This just worries me bc I fear that she is planning to come back in a few weeks. I just can’t go through this again so soon. I am wanting to buy a house , but obviously can’t do this and move before Christmas. I am feeling stuck in the dysfunctional family and do not like it. I am fed up- if my mom wants to continue enabling  her, fine. I can’t sit back and watch the circus and verbal abuse of her children any longer.

[turquoise1]

As for her husband needing a break , I am sure that is the case. I am  certain she is controlling of him and what goes on in the house as well. That being said, he has horrible temper and explosive anger. I fear for the lives of these children.

[once removed]

I can’t sit back and watch the circus and verbal abuse of her children any longer.

when shes around, how often are you able to get out of the house for some "me time"?

[turquoise1]

Hi Once Removed,
     I was away as much as I could be this last time, and now my mother is acting rude and hateful towards me. She has pulled the whole guilt trip that I’m ripping the family apart when I haven’t participated in holidays bc of my sister. I am feeling damned if I do damned if I don’t. I know that none of this is normal, but I am really struggling right now. I stood my ground with my sister, didn’t let her bully me and didn’t give her any opportunities to unleash on me this time. Now it feels like my mother is punishing me. We have always been close, and she’s acting like a child giving me the silent treatment for the most part. When she does say something to me it is hateful. I just need help.

[Harri]

It is unfortunate that your mom is reacting to you this way.  I hate the silent treatment more than I hate the hateful comments that used to come my way. 

Lets try to put this in a context that might help with depersonalizing your mom's behaviors and possibly make it easier for you to deal with her at this time.  She is probably scared and stressed out, worried about having to deal with your sister, the 'unstable one' and she is taking it out on you and probably blaming you.  That will happen when a family member (you) changes the way you normally work within the family system.  Any change throws things out of whack. 

It sounds like the system has always been calibrated to deal with your sister and appease her and tip-toe around her.   It is going to take time and finesse for you to remain on your course of setting boundaries and working on you and dealing with your mother.  It is going to take time.  In a weird way, getting push back like this means that your changes are working.  I don't mean because people are getting upset as that is never the goal, but if what you were doing had no effect at all what would that tell you?  Sorry, I tend to look for and find the positive in just about anything... .sometimes it is not helpful. 

I stood my ground with my sister, didn’t let her bully me and didn’t give her any opportunities to unleash on me this time.

  Yes, you did and I think we need to put this in the right context too.  You did great.  It was hard but it will get easier each time as you get better at setting boundaries and detaching emotionally.  Don't give up and just keep on setting boundaries that are consistent with your own personal values.
 

I just need help.

  We've got you.  Can you think of anything else we can do for you?  If what I wrote is not helpful, please say so otherwise I will probably repeat it.

 

[turquoise1]

I think it is all extremely helpful and I appreciate the support. This is not easy. At all.
Thank you

[once removed]

conflict and drama move on a triangle, sometimes in a healthy way, and sometimes in dysfunctional ways. it is especially prominent in families (all families), in ways both good and bad.

can you have a read of this (its one of my personal favorite lessons here), and tell us a bit about where you see all of the "players", including how they might see it?

https://bpdfamily.com/content/karpman-drama-triangle

it will take some thought and some work to navigate this, and none of it will be easy, but the article could give you a good picture of whats happening, and next steps.

[Harri]

How are you doing turquoise?  Did you have a chance to read about the drama triangle?

Don't mean to nag.     I mostly just want to check in and see how you are.

[turquoise1]

I did read about the drama triangle , and felt as  if it were written  just for me! Meanwhile I  had to call 911 for my stepdad, and now he is in icu and not doing well. You are not  nagging at all! Thanks so much for checking in.

[Harri]

Hi turquoise.  I am sorry to hear about your step dad.  Want to talk about it?

I am glad you found the article helpful.  I struggle with staying out of the drama triangle and find it helpful to read it through again and again... .though I still allow myself to get drawn in.  It is hard to change behavior and thought patterns that have been there since forever, but I know it can be done... .I just don't like being on the learning curve for this kind of stuff. 

Take care and try to get rest.  I hope your step dad gets better.

[once removed]

Meanwhile I  had to call 911 for my stepdad, and now he is in icu and not doing well.

what happened?

[zachira]

So heartbreaking and sad to see your sister abusing others, especially her young children. You would like to perhaps cut ties with your sister, yet you are torn because of the concern you have for your nieces. I grew up with an abusive mother, and the positive contact I had with other family members outside the immediate family, and kindness showed by friends and neighbors made a big difference in my life. I fondly remember just a few minutes of contact with strangers and how it made a difference, in addition to others who spent considerable time giving me the love and appreciation my immediate family could not provide. When you have the chance, even though you may see your nieces infrequently, perhaps there will be many months between visits, do what you can to show that they matter to you. Also, you may want to keep documentation of all the abuse you observe or have observed, because ongoing written documentation can make a big difference to Child Protective Services if you ever decide to do a report, whereas just telling them what you have observed can just make it your word against your sister's. My heart goes out to you with such a challenging situation with your sister and her children. Keep us posted on how you are doing and let us know how we can be the most helpful.