Cluster B lbehavoirs and trauma

[Stillstruggling]

This was a response in a locked thread. It probably seems out of context. The conversation was why do some people in wars get trauma while other don't. This was in a larger conversation about whether exposure to a person with cluster b might be enough to cause some  type of trauma

I'm not underestimating how difficult and damaging a person with a mental illness can be in a close relationship. But look at the people coming back from war. Since WWII, psychologists have studied why some people exposed to the same trauma end up living on the street or shooting themselves, and others go on to me motivational speakers and win special Olympics. Family theory was born out of these initial investigations.

Well I've analyzed this thing inside and out. With war trauma or trauma of any kind there is the event but then there is also often another element. Often it's an element where they experienced disillusionment with authority, when their experiences are denied, or a psychological aspect that's hard to process. I spent a lot of time researching trauma and it's usually not simple fearing for your life. You can get trauma from a car accident but I've never encountered a person who got it from a simple straight forward cause. There is usually a psychological element involved

With molestation survivors a lot of time the experience was denied by an enabler and it was not just the molestation but the denial of the experience that causes the trauma.

I have a thoery that gaslighting and psychological projecting are actually present in a variety of trauma and things that made a difference to whether the trauma developed into chronic trauma.

Things like gaslighting and blame shifting etc. are in concentrated form in people with cluster b disorders. So in experiencing trauma you might not have a fear for your life situation but you do have the other factors and elements that are often present in the conditions in which trauma often develops.

Of course I've thought about this inside and out and this is just an observation. I think there is something uniquely difficult for humans to process when it comes to gas lighting, denial, blame shifting etc. I don't think we fully understand why these.things are so harmful or hard to process.

[JNChell]

Hi, Stillstruggling. I’ve been following your threads on trauma. They’re interesting. Trauma is a big topic for a lot of us here and sometimes it’s hard to pinpoint. It can be caused by many different things in many different ways to many different people. I can’t imagine that placing statistics on the subject to be easy. It’s not as fledgling of a subject as BPD and the like, but it’s still on the horizon of really being understood by clinicians.

I like to read your posts about trauma because they come from a place of self reflection. You have the most important part nailed down here. With that being said, be mindful of your information sources. There’s a lot of hungry stuff out there that is the ocean of the Internet.

With war trauma or trauma of any kind there is the event but then there is also often another element.

Sometimes yes, and sometimes no. Sometimes there is a single traumatic event in a short amount of time. Sometimes there are multiple and compiling traumatic events that can last for weeks, months or even years. Between the two, where do you see yourself? The symptoms can look similar, but sometimes it requires a deeper look.

when their experiences are denied,

Gaslighting, enabling or denial as you’ve already stated. This can be extremely traumatizing.

With molestation survivors a lot of time the experience was denied by an enabler and it was not just the molestation but the denial of the experience that causes the trauma.

This happened to my son’s mother at 12 years old. I think the denial and neglect by her mother caused more damage than the act that was perpetrated on her.

I think there is something uniquely difficult for humans to process when it comes to gas lighting, denial, blame shifting etc. I don't think we fully understand why these.things are so harmful or hard to process.

I agree with you. I often wonder if society has taken a shift. I personally think that the negative feelings that you mentioned here come down to the dichotomy of being able to trust and not being alone. By nature, humans are drawn to one another. IMHO, technology has outrun that natural human aspect in its evolution. I think that that aspect can contribute to trauma.

Trauma is pretty prevelant these days. Where do you feel that your trauma stems from? You’re right, it was first noticed in soldiers that made it back from war. It’s also discussed on this site quite a bit on how trauma can become multigenerational. Trauma breeds trauma if it’s not processed and put to rest. Our kids. Our grandchildren.

This is a good topic, Stillstruggling. Trauma is being recognized a little more these days. What’s your story with it.

[Stillstruggling]

I've actually been struggling with it for 9 years. I got completely better for two or three years. Like completely better. Then this friend of mine with BPD moved here. It took two years for him to trigger me into trauma again.  And now I've been suffering this past year again.

The people who know me well all feel it's trauma. I experienced a complete transformation over night from a specific event and within that week had symptoms.

Sometimes I doubt it like when I had that two-three year break. Like is it trauma. Even was it trauma. But when I have it there is no mistaking it. It's unlike anything I've experienced prior to it in my life.

It's a different level than sad. It's a different level than anything.

[JNChell]

Hi, Stillstruggling. You’ve shared some things in your last post that I’m currently becoming familiar with myself.

I've actually been struggling with it for 9 years. I got completely better for two or three years. Like completely better. Then this friend of mine with BPD moved here. It took two years for him to trigger me into trauma again.  And now I've been suffering this past year again.

9 years is a long time to be grappling with trauma. I’m sorry that you’ve had to go through this. It helps to have support, knowledge and tools when working through the trauma. I’m with you on feeling better for an extended amount of time. I’ve recently learned that the trauma can go dormant for extended periods if it isn’t in a place or around people that trigger it. If it’s unprocessed, it’s still there. It’s just sleeping. pwBPD can definitely trigger past trauma. Especially if some or most of that dormant trauma was caused by a pwBPD.

My best (past) days unfolded when I moved out of my parents home. I built my physical health, met a great girl and was doing well in my career for my age. I can remember how good I felt. My trauma was allowed to go to sleep, but I didn’t kick it out. I had no idea about this stuff 20 years ago. I sure do now. Is this friendship romantic or platonic? Are you two still in contact?

I experienced a complete transformation over night from a specific event and within that week had symptoms.

This sounds very familiar. When the initial shock of the event wears off the trauma is screaming “listen to me!”. If you’re comfortable sharing, what happened here?

Stillstruggling, you’re not alone in this. It definitely can feel like nothing else. It’s a deep seeded pain that is hard to describe. It’s understood here. Thanks for sharing.

[Stillstruggling]

Thank you  @JNChell. Sorry I'm really bad at quoting. Not sure if people even see responses if I don't quote. You strick me as a very sweet and gentle person which is great and about my speed. It is hard talking about this and it's largely because I have a sensitivity to not being believed. I think if a person hasn't experienced this there is the temptation to apply their own experiences to it. But the thing is this isn't something everyone expwriences.

I feel like the people who are very close to me are able to  understand because they see me and they know me. And I guess when I say they understand what I mean is how much I have suffered or am suffering and also how abnormal that is for me.

 For me I just look at it like what happened to me should not have caused this degree of suffering. It's a little mysterious to me that it did and I think the people close to me feel that exact same way. In a way they also experienced the same things from my sister and while it was hard for then it did not switch them into trauma. My mom commenting that she never even knew it was possible that THIS  could happen to someone and I feel the same way.

I think maybe the only ones who can understand are those people closest to me and perhaps someone with similar experiences.

Everyone has been supportive and no one is invaludating me here. I guess under the framework if c-ptsd my experiences make sense. I guess I'm just saying that I have a really tender area with not being believed around this stuff. I am going to answer all of those questions but now I've already written too much. I'm just saying this so when I explain I don't have to spend so much time defending and expanding on what I say and I can just explain. Because I feel like otherwise I spend a lot of time essentially saying no but really.
 

[Stillstruggling]

There are a couple of things I want to make clear. One is that it really wasn't technically bad enough that it should have triggered  this response in me. And also that I had really solid mental health before this happened to me.

I feel like edmr therapy edmr didn't work because I felt pressure to try to find really horrible things about my sister to make it edmr worthy.

But it wouldn't benefit me to attempt to exaggerate and I even tried searching for things.

The truth that my therapist wasn't able to get to is that this stuff (ie the behaviours that come common in cluster B) are in themselves hard enough to deal with. I think that they are uniquely hard to deal with because of reasons that I think we might not fully understand

Just wanted to address those two points. I hope nobody hates me after that. It probably sound nausating but I just wanted to say I wasn't already messed up and I wish I could remember something severe enough to make this trauma make sense. But beyond stress and anxiety and actual or imagined  peer rejection there just isn't anything.

[Panda39]

Hi Stillstruggling,

I just wanted to pop in briefly, I just finished a really good book on Trauma and you may have read it already... .but wanted to share it just in case you hadn't.

The Body Keeps the Score: Brain, Mind, and Body in the Healing of Trauma
by Bessel van der Kolk M.D.

Very interesting book and yes there are differences between childhood trauma and traumatic event trauma (War, Twin Towers, Car Accident etc.)

Panda39

[Harri]

Hi again!

Just wanted to address those two points. I hope nobody hates me after that. It probably sound nausating but I just wanted to say I wasn't already messed up and I wish I could remember something severe enough to make this trauma make sense. But beyond stress and anxiety and actual or imagined  peer rejection there just isn't anything.

No one here is going to hate you for stating what is true for you and for sticking to it!  You do not need to justify your experience or how you view your experiences.  You know what they are and we don't. 

I believe you.

You are right that exaggerating is not good nor is it healthy.

I think we can focus on your feelings and the symptoms that do sound like a PTSD response without necessarily sticking the label on you.   

Addressing those things seem to be the most important thing to do right now. 

Thoughts? 

[JNChell]

Hi again, Stillstruggling.

Not sure if people even see responses if I don't quote.

No worries. We see ya!

It is hard talking about this and it's largely because I have a sensitivity to not being believed.

I understand. You know what? We believe you, too. It’s hard to know who to talk to about this stuff. I was afraid to join and post when I first discovered this community. I’ve learned that the key to overcoming this fear is to just find the right people to talk to about it. This can be difficult. A common narrative here is that if a person hasn’t been through similar things that we have, they really have no way of truly comprehending the magnitude of it. You stated this well in your post. We do and you’re safe here with us. We understand and we “get it”. Just like you.

I feel like the people who are very close to me are able to  understand because they see me and they know me.

I’m glad to hear you say this. You have trusted people that are close to you that can listen and comfort you. This is good. Don’t be afraid to rely on them. I’m giving advice that I should take because I’m not very good at relying on others. In fact, I’m terrible at it. There have been many times when I should’ve reached out to the support that I know is there instead of making bad choices. This is something that I’m really struggling with and have been for some time now. Lean on your loved ones when you need them.

For me I just look at it like what happened to me should not have caused this degree of suffering. It's a little mysterious to me that it did and I think the people close to me feel that exact same way. In a way they also experienced the same things from my sister and while it was hard for then it did not switch them into trauma. My mom commenting that she never even knew it was possible that THIS  could happen to someone and I feel the same way.

I can see what you’re saying here. I get it, but keep in mind that everyone is different. We will all react and be affected in different ways by the same thing. The human experience is in no way a standardized experience. Allow yourself to think about how complex the human mind and existence really are. It’s pretty complex stuff. How do you feel about allowing yourself the space to feel what you feel without anything influencing that for you? Those are your feelings and they mean something to you on a personal level. What do you think?

I guess I'm just saying that I have a really tender area with not being believed around this stuff.

This is understandable.  Maybe give this some consideration. Perhaps there are those that don’t believe when they hear snippets of our stories. On the flip side of the coin, maybe it can be incomprehensible to them as well. Just like we agree upon if they’ve never been there, they can’t really understand. That’s ok. We all do here, together.

[Harri]

I've been thinking about you.  How are your symptoms doing? 

Are you familiar with mindfulness?  It can help a lot with managing anxiety and panic attacks, at least I know it has helped me and several others here on the site.

Here is a link:  Triggering, Mindfulness and Wise Mind  It might even help with management of your OCD, though I know you said it is under control, I wonder if you think that might have something to do with the way you are feeling?  I don't know much about it so forgive me if I am off track here.  Though I still think Mindfulness will help anyone feeling the way you do. 

[JNChell]

Excerpt:

By paying attention to ourselves in real time. There are books written about this, but the short answer is to pay attention to yourself, observe yourself in a purposeful way, in the present moment, and without immediately overlaying the old filters on the situation.

Without immediately overlaying old filters on the situation.

Reactivity or not staying grounded with the emotions at hand.

[Kwamina]

Hi again Stillstruggling

You can get trauma from a car accident but I've never encountered a person who got it from a simple straight forward cause.

What do you consider a simple straight forward cause?

I've actually been struggling with it for 9 years. I got completely better for two or three years. Like completely better.

You've been struggling with this for 9 years. How did it all start those 9 years ago? What were the circumstances of your life back then? Did you experience any particular changes in your life back then?

You also say you got completely better for two or three years. To what do you attribute that recovery? Did you take any particular steps to help you recover or experience any particular other changes in your life which preceded or coincided with your recovery?

Then this friend of mine with BPD moved here. It took two years for him to trigger me into trauma again.

Can you identify the specific thoughts and emotions you are experiencing when interacting with this friend?

I experienced a complete transformation over night from a specific event and within that week had symptoms.

If you are willing to share, what were some of the characteristics of the specific event you mention?

For me I just look at it like what happened to me should not have caused this degree of suffering... .My mom commenting that she never even knew it was possible that THIS  could happen to someone and I feel the same way.

One is that it really wasn't technically bad enough that it should have triggered  this response in me. And also that I had really solid mental health before this happened to me.

It might help to consider that the subjects we are exploring aren't an exact science, the mechanics and relationships aren't necessarily as strict as for instance in the fundamental laws of physics.

Whether it should happen or not, and whether you or anyone else previously believed it could happen or not, from your own posts it has become clear that it has happened and that's the reality you are now dealing with. Are there any steps you think you can take to help you cope with accepting this reality as it is (and not how you believe or feel it should be) and then try to get yourself on a path of recovery?

The Board Parrot