Giving therapy a try... but...

[Ozzie101]

I guess secretive and controlling are his words. He said elsewhere in the letter that other women he'd been with had been manipulative and controlling like I was being. Yet I don't really see myself that way. I do tend to keep some things private. I would expect the same from him. He's said before regarding a friend of mine, "How would you feel if I texted my friends and you didn't know what I was saying?" It wouldn't bother me in the least. He has a right to relationships with his friends and I trust him. He didn't believe me that I wouldn't be bothered. He texts with his sister multiple times a day. I don't know what they text about. My sisters and I text maybe once a week -- if that. Yet it bothers him that I may text with my sisters without him being in the loop.

I don't recall ever trying to control what he does. I have done things to try to make things easier for him and smooth out rough edges with family or with myself. That could be controlling in a way, I suppose. But I don't try to manipulate him or exert control over him. More over myself and situations where I know he'll be triggered.

And, yes, I see a pattern. I try to fix. It doesn't help. I need to stop trying to fix. I guess where it's hard is that he blames me for a lot of the problems and the way he spins it, I can see where he's coming from. And therefore, if it's my fault, then I should be the one to fix it. To him, if I don't fix it, then it's a sign that I'm self-centered and don't care about him. I hate for him (or anyone) to think that way, so I bend over backwards to accommodate.

But you're right. It doesn't work.

We have a meeting tonight with his psychiatrist and he's planning to bring up the idea of anger management therapy. Hopefully that will go somewhere and will at least be a step in the right direction. He's still very resistant to couples or individual therapy for either one of us. But maybe approaching it in a different way -- his concern for my mental health, etc. -- would be the way to go. I tried that the other night and it didn't go over well but I may be able to come at it in a different way.

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[formflier]

We have a meeting tonight with his psychiatrist and he's planning to bring up the idea of anger management therapy. 

Wait... what?  All stop.

He has a psychiatrist, yet you are not allowed to have a therapist?

I'm all kinda confused here.

Please take a COPY of the letter to the psychiatrist meeting.  Shine light on what is actually happening in your relationship.  Doctors can't treat what they don't know.

Please explain more about his views on therapists... .and Psychiatrists... I'm having trouble connecting the dots.

FF

[Ozzie101]

Yes. He's been seeing a psychiatrist (well, several) for a number of years now. He's gone through quite a few. That's been to treat anxiety and depression.

He has tried talk therapy before but he says it hasn't worked for him. He doesn't have the time or patience to "answer a lot of questions." Plus, he feels like they do nothing but pry and then get people hooked on them so they keep going for years with no results but fatter pockets for the therapist. He doesn't like spilling private stuff to someone -- or for me to do that either.

He'd prefer to take a pill that will fix the anxiety and depression and psychiatrists these days (at least the ones he sees) are almost purely med management.

That said, he doesn't fully trust psychiatrists either. He's been on many different drugs over the last few years with mixed results. And he's gone through several doctors. He starts out liking them, then when they can't fix him, he gets frustrated and goes to someone else.

The last doctor prescribed a drug that actually worked but also caused weight gain, despite H making it clear (I was there) that he will not take anything that could cause weight gain. He still bears a lot of hatred for that doctor. That whole situation was part of what triggered his current state.

Anyway, he's occasionally mentioned taking a break from psychiatrists since nothing works and he's tired of being a guinea pig but he keeps going back in hopes of finding the right one.

It's only been since his last meeting (two months ago) that I've really come to see what could be going on with him. And if I'm right, that's a pretty good explanation for why therapy and drugs haven't completely worked for him. For therapy, he needs someone who specializes in BPD.

I haven't mentioned BPD to him (was advised against it) but I have mentioned DBT to him in one of his more receptive moments and plan to continue to encourage him to consider that.

I don't feel like I can take a copy of the letter. Neither of us has mentioned it in a long time and he would see that as a betrayal and, under the circumstances, I wouldn't blame him. But I do plan to be very honest about what I've witnessed and experienced from him lately -- the rages, the long conversations, the irrationality.

[formflier]

If you had test results showing a heart patient had a bad heart, how would it be a betrayal to show that to a heart doctor, that could do something about it?

If you don't feel like taking the letter, I can't imagine it would be helpful to not mention general claims of molestation.

Remember... .stick with the principles.  Is it better or worse to shine light on a problem.  Notice I didn't say anything about peoples feelings.

FF

[Ozzie101]

True. I need to give that some thought.

[Ozzie101]

I think the thing I struggle with with this is how to address these problems honestly while not betraying him. If I bring things up to the doctor without also talking to him about it, that would be blindsiding. It's not just a matter of feelings. If I find I can mention the molestation claims, I do plan to. But, if I betray him, doesn't that help to destroy what trust we do have?

I have been honest with him about his anger and about the things he says and his reactions to things. And in his "normal" moments, he's aware of them too. He's made comments about how he's afraid that his behavior will someday drive me away.

When I bring things up when he's not in the right frame of mind, then these things get twisted around so they're my fault and he's just responding to me, my selfishness, etc.

My goal is to get him to seek help and we seem to be making some progress in that direction. If he feels I've betrayed him and he stops trusting me, will all that be destroyed? I'm just afraid of doing it the wrong way and ending up in worse shape than I'm in now.

[stolencrumbs]

Hi Ozzie,
I've been following along on your posts and I see a lot of similarities between your situation and my own. Not just in how you describe the other person, but also with your own ways of thinking about it, approaching it, etc. I think my own relationship is a little further down a not-very-good road than yours, but I see a lot of the same patterns.

I definitely get where you're coming from on this particular worry about not betraying your partner in a therapy setting. In my own experience, that is something to worry about. My wife has often felt "attacked" or "blindsided" by me in a therapy setting, and this has never helped anything. Usually she stops going to the therapist, and then nobody's being helped. There is always a lot *I* want to bring up and say, but if she's not prepared for that, or sees it as me "throwing her under the bus," only bad things happen as a result.

My wife has now been seeing a T for about six months, which is the longest she's seen any one person. I think the key was focusing on exactly what I wanted to happen and trying not to do anything to derail that. My goal was the same as yours--I wanted her to get help. So in the sessions we've had together, I don't say much. I am careful about what I do say. It is not a "safe place" for me, because I know anything I say can and will be used against me. That's fine. For now. My goal is for my wife to keep seeing a professional, and at the moment, the best chance of that is to not bring up lots of things that I think should probably be discussed.

This is a long-term process. We're dealing with someone who has a lifetime of distorted thinking patterns and maladaptive coping strategies. I can hold off on "getting it all on the table" if it means she can build some trust with the T, not feel betrayed by me, and start working on things at a pace she can handle. It's not the pace I want, but it's better than standing still or moving backwards.

That's all just to say I don't think it's necessarily a bad idea to be cautious about what you bring up, or about how much you say to the T or P. It's good to shine light on a problem, but if someone's been in a dark room for a long time and comes out into the bright sunlight, they might not be able to see anything.

[Ozzie101]

Thank you, stolencrumbs. Sounds like we are in a similar place. That's exactly what I worry about: making him feel betrayed and setting us back even further. I feel like I'm making progress on moving him to other forms of therapy and I want to make sure I don't disrupt that, while also being honest about what I've seen and felt.

I know from experience that while he's aware of his behavior and that it's problematic, he also continues to see me as the provocateur who's responsible for his moods and the way he reacts.

[formflier]

Why not just be honest about your conundrum, without details.

Flip it around.  Is it reasonable that "every" word you say get pre-approved by him before you say it to his medical professionals... .so he won't feel betrayed?

If you do that... .what are the chances he will twist your words and accuse you of betraying him anyway.

There is value in not dumping "everything" out there at once, that's for sure.  This has to be balanced by the value of actually addressing the problem.  There are legions of stories on here of pwBPD going to therapists, yet living in a fantasy world by not addressing what is "really" ... ."objectively" happening.

Here is the value in the letter.  It's objective.  It's not an opinion.  Letting a professional read it and then have follow up conversations allows the professional to put it in the proper context.

Last thought... .how has trying "not to make him angry" worked?  How do you think doing things so "he won't feel betrayed" will work? 

How often do you see psychiatrists together? 

So tonight the primary focus is on anger?  Perhaps at least ask when it's appropriate to bring up related topics.  I would think he was quite angry about your family molesting you.  I would also think he got more angry that you didn't buy his theory and cut off your family.

Do you see the connection? 

FF

[Ozzie101]

No, I don't need to get everything pre-approved. I plan to be honest about what I'm witnessing without going too far into "dumping" territory. Addressing the problem without betraying him.

You're right. Depending on his mood, he could still see it as a betrayal.

Sometimes not making him angry has worked. On small stuff, like dinner decisions and whether to stay in or go out. But it's setting up a bad pattern of me giving up any feelings or opinions of my own to please him.

The P appointments have been irregular. This is only our second time with this one and the first meeting was almost two months ago. Maybe we'll get more on a regular schedule. It was this summer when things started to ramp up and only the end of October when I started to figure out what was really going on. We've only seen the P once since I discovered BPD.

I definitely see how that could fit in with the anger. I just need to see how things go. But I plan to be as honest as I feel is safe (for me) to do so about what's been going on.

[formflier]

Definitely ask about more regular visits. 

If you hubby doesn't want to do that... ask for your P's opinion.  Are regular or irregular visits better.

Follow the advice of professionals...

FF

[stolencrumbs]

Thank you, stolencrumbs. Sounds like we are in a similar place. That's exactly what I worry about: making him feel betrayed and setting us back even further. I feel like I'm making progress on moving him to other forms of therapy and I want to make sure I don't disrupt that, while also being honest about what I've seen and felt.

I know from experience that while he's aware of his behavior and that it's problematic, he also continues to see me as the provocateur who's responsible for his moods and the way he reacts.

Yes, very familiar with being held responsible for moods and reactions.

I don't know if this is accurate for you, but for me, the issue isn't *just* about whether my wife *feels* betrayed. It is about whether I have actually betrayed her trust in some way. I think this stuff is complicated. It's especially complicated in a BPD relationship, because we can't talk about it and get input from the other person. I don't want to betray my wife, even if I think doing so could possibly make something better. Despite acting like a child sometimes, she's not a child and I don't want to treat her as one. For me, I worry not just about what works, but also about what's right, and those two things are not always the same.

I don't have any real insight here, except that I get that it's complicated. My suggestion would be to think about what you think does or does not count as a betrayal. What kinds of things can you bring up that you are comfortable bringing up and comfortable (at least in your head, since doing this in reality will be ineffective) defending having brought up. I know I tend to get in trouble (with myself) when I do something that I think may help without thinking through whether I'm acting contrary to other values or principles I have. It's hard to balance it all and to sort it all out.

It sounds like that's what you're doing. You're figuring out what you're comfortable talking about or bringing up, and trying to do so in a way that is consistent with who you are and with respecting the other person.

[Ozzie101]

I feel the same way, stolen. It's very hard for me to act in ways I don't feel are right. That's why I cannot go along with some of the things H wants me to do -- like being "forceful" and chewing someone out or using a lot of profanity and cutting someone off. I don't think it's right. I just can't do it.

But when I agree with him that someone has done something unfair, I will handle it -- my own way.

Similarly, I can't act in ways toward him that I think are wrong. That's why I can talk about some of these things in a therapy session but I don't think it's right to blindside him. It's a tricky tightrope to walk.

[formflier]

That it is complicated is an understatement.

That's precisely why trying to stay above details is important and find a couple principles that you will "cling" to.

1.  Is "keeping secrets" healthy or is "shining a light" appropriate.  
2.  Does it matter who you are "betraying" him to?  
3.  Do you want to validate to someone that you will keep their "dysfunctional secrets"?

Let's examine number 3.  Let's assume the OP keeps the secret and the P never finds out about the molestation claims.  Then... .new claims arise she was molested and was pregnant and hid the pregnancy.  However, OP is sworn to secrecy and doesn't "betray".  

Then... .more claims.  Was molested, had a pregnancy and was sold as a prostitute by her family for money.  At this point... OP breaks and "betrays".  Hubby goes nuclear about the "betrayal" and the debate centers around the "details" of if human trafficking (prostitution) is "worthy" of a betrayal.  Especially since the other secrets were kept.

Alternate life:

OP "betrays" now and husband realizes that these types of secrets will be "shown" or "betrayed" to appropriate professionals.  He pitches a fit that is bad, but much less than the nuclear fit about the prostitution.

However, in this life hubby doesn't "share" any more secrets... .so the OP never hears about the pregnancy claims and prostitution.


Which relationship is likely more stable?  Which "life" would you want for yourself or someone else?

I'm obviously a fan of "shining the light".  It has worked for me, but I can tell you it was horrible going through it and having to stand firm.

Best,

FF

[Ozzie101]

Thanks, formflier. You have a really good way of putting things in a different light and helping me think things through in a different way. Something to consider there.

[Harri]

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