My adult daughter shows traits of BPD - what can I do to help her?

[JeanGenie]

Hello all,
This is really hard for me. It is the first time I have ever posted anything on any site, but I am so desperate, that I am hoping it may help.
I have a daughter who is in her late 20's. She recently came to stay with me after her relationship break up but has since moved out again and now wants to completely cut off from me.   she moved out after a rage because I had asked her if we could moved some of her stuff around a bit, she accused me of wanting to kick her out (absolutely not the case). She had started to be off with me a couple of weeks beforehand when I went out with a friend (I had invited her along but she declined asking me to leave her be). She then said I had left her to rot all weekend (I was out for a few hours), and what kind of mother does that to her child etc. She had started to seek help for her eating disorder when she came here, and was seeing a private therapist. Before she went she was screaming at me that I had made her anorexic, and threw one insult after another. She has since sent me so many emails full of vitriol and messages. I try to ignore them and what she says but I find it so difficult. She has 'cut me off' before, and dint speak to me for 2 years. She brings up so many things from her childhood and I am so low because the information on BPD states it must come from abuse or neglect as a child. I went into hospital when she was 5 and she stayed with my mum. I did struggle as a single parent and had no family geographical near to me, but I always put her first, loved her with all my heart. She now says things like she wouldn't care if I was dead, in fact why don't I just kill myself because I disgust her. We used to be so close before she left home. She is my only child, and I didn't really seek other relationships when she was little as I wanted to keep her safe. She now says that it is because I am such a vile person that I have never had a good relationship. My heart is breaking and I don't know what to do. Because she now will not share if she has had a diagnosis, I don't even know if that BPD is what she has. She has fallen out with practically every work colleague or friend etc, and it has always been because they have failed her in some way. She is an amazing and beautiful person in so many ways, but I am so worried that if she doesn't get the right help, she will always be struggling. I don't know how to help her as I would think she will not accept there is anything wrong with her, and it is all me and my fault. I really need to find someone to talk to, even to see if this may be what she has, and to then find a way to communicate with her. I feel she is lost to me - she now says she hates me so much, and doesn't hold back on her insults and hurtful words. I don't know if she now just really means it and is not a nice person, or if she is really ill. Any help will be so gratefully received. Thank you.

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[Bnonymous]

Hi JG,



I'm sorry to hear you're going through such painful experiences with your daughter. It does very much sound like BPD, but you will find help here in dealing with the traits and behavious she shows, regardless of whether she is diagnosed.

 She brings up so many things from her childhood and I am so low because the information on BPD states it must come from abuse or neglect as a child.

I can see how it would be very upsetting to read that. You may be reading out-of-date information there. It used to be quite widely thought that BPD came from abuse or neglect, but there is much more understanding of the condition now and recognition that people without such histories can nevertheless develop it.

One book describes it in terms of different "pathways" to BPD: one is through abuse or neglect, another is through genetic factors etc. (I'm sorry I don't have the reference to hand - I've read so many books on BPD that I forget which said what. I'll come back to this thread when I've identified which book it is.)

The main point is that this is not your fault.

There is a saying that, for people with BPD traits, "feelings create facts". Your daughter's interpretations and memories around her childhood are likely to reflect the extremely intense emotions she is struggling with. For example, you say she thinks you wouldn't care if she were dead - you know that isn't the case - her words aren't literally true, although they can provide you with helpful hints of how she is feeling. Try to keep that in mind when she talks about her childhood too. It can be important to listen to and validate her feelings, but, at the same time, try to hold fast inside yourself to your truths - you know you always loved and cared for her and put her first, even if she can't see it.

I'm sure others will be along soon with more advice and shared experiences. In the meantime, I just wanted to say welcome and that, if your daughter does have BPD, you are not to blame for that. 

[Harri]

Hi!  I am joining Bnonymous in saying welcome to the board.  I am glad you reached out for help here as so many can relate and are in similar situations with their pwBPD (person with BPD).  We support each other and help each other learn about the behaviors that are all too frequent.

Regarding the origin of BPD, studies have shown that 60% of pwBPD have a genetic link to BPD while 40% of the cases are related to environmental aspects.  That said, many parents struggle with feelings of being responsible for their child's disorder.  You are not alone in this and I think it is only natural because as a parent you want to protect your kids. 

I hope you settle in and read and jump into other threads and posts.  Building a support network here can help a great deal as you relate to other parents who truly understand.   

[JeanGenie]

Thank you so much Bnonymous and Harri. (I think I'm supposed to do an before names? Sorry - I will get the hang of it!). It is just such a relief to actually find a site that I think may be able to help me feel less alone whilst trying to cope with everything.

As I have never posted on any group sites before it may take me a while to navigate it and I am not very computer savvie so it will may take me forever to learn how to actually quote something etc! I have had a quick look and I think I will try and work through the worksheets first and increase my knowledge, and also try to get to grips with all the abbreviations etc! (I have found the explanation list - fabulous, thank you!).

Thank you so much for your kind and encouraging words. I got very emotional reading them, and had a good cry -  but maybe this time with more hope as it felt amazing to actually hear some nice words. I had a lovely greeting message from Cat Familiar, but I couldn't work out how to do the verification code (see previous note re my computer skills

[once removed]

hi JeanGenie, i want to join Bnonymous and Harri and say

im glad you reached out, and youll get the hang of the board!

as youre working through the lessons, it will help to ask questions about what youre reading and learning. most of this is not intuitive.

We used to be so close before she left home.

i can feel your pain here and its heartbreaking to go from that, to being the target of vitriol. i want you to know there is hope. about when (how old was she) would you say things got more difficult between the two of you?

[JeanGenie]

Hi Once removed. Thank you so much for your message.

(I am so sorry - this is so long).

My daughter and I were very close when she was very young. I had no relatives living close to me so there really was only me and her (and the dog!). Her biological father was very abusive both physically and mentally and very controlling, but he lost interest when I became pregnant and went off with someone else, so I moved out of his area and tried to start anew. He has not ever supported her.

I think a lot of what my dwuDBP (now 29) ( not sure if that is right? - I must print off that list!) considers to be my fault in the way she struggles now really is because of me. I am trying to acknowledge that although I tried my best for her, and I thought she was ok, she really did have it hard.

 I have struggled with depression and social phobia since early teens myself, and I had a hospital admission in my early 20's after a suffering a breakdown (this was before I had my daughter). When I had her I pushed myself to make sure that I took her to mum and baby groups, made some friends with other kids, she had lots of friends round etc. I wanted her to be confident with others, unlike myself,  and she seemed a very happy little girl. I always 'put on a brave face' and didn't really have anyone to talk to much or support.

Unfortunately, when she was 5, I became really ill again. It came out of nowhere really, and I was sectioned and my family came and took her. The pressures of taking her to school, standing with all the other parents, some of my friends taking advantage (I never went out to socialise so I was a good baby sitter for others!), the aloneness etc all got too much. My poor daughter got taken from her home, her mum, her friends, her school. I was so desperate to get her back. I fought very hard to get better and appealed against my section and because of this my mother would not give her back to me so I had to go to court to get her back. I had to prove I was well enough. The court threw it out and returned her to me.This process took about 6 months.

When I got her back, she suffered from night terrors and I took her to a child psychiatrist where she had some sessions. And then was discharged. They just said that she would settle ok now she was back and that was that. And she did. Or seemed to. We got on with our lives.

things were difficult with my family for a couple of years. My mother used to talk about me (she does about everyone!) in front of my daughter, and my d must have thought that nanny was 'betraying' me)l my mother doesn't hold back when it comes to nattering and she talked about a lot of things that I would have kept quiet from my d. Things like how I struggled to cope in groups and the strain that I would have had taking my d out, getting her to school etc. I think my d must have thought me being ill wa her fault. Goodness knows what things my d had to listen to - especially through the court proceedings.   I kept I contact with my family after though as my d wanted to continue to see them, and anyway it was what I thought was right for her.

My d eventually cut off from the rest of the family a few years ago. She started to have some therapy, and became very 'anti' my mum. Then the rest of the family. She then did not speak to me for two years because she could not understand why I would have anything to do with them after what they did. I tried to explain to her that my mother was only doing what she felt was right at the time (the rest of my family jumped onto the same bandwagon as my mum and it took me a long time and a lot of work on forgiveness myself to re-engage with them). My d I think took this as me siding with them rather than validating her (I now realise this although didn't see it at the time).

After I came out of hospital when d was now 6 I went back to work full time and also did my degree and my daughter seemed happy with her friends and in herself. We didn't ever have much money. But we went on lovely free nature walks with the dog, we made our Xmas cards together, she had her friends over, we had lots of fun and we had a really close relationship. (Sorry this is now really long ☺️).

Things got bad when she got into her teens. Her anger levels were getting pretty bad, but I just thought this would settle down with hormones etc. Also another trauma instigated a change in her. Our beloved dog had had an operation and I had to go to work on a weekend (daughter was now 15). I had asked her if she wanted to go out if she would make sure the dog had her protective 'lampshade' collar on. It was so awful for my daughter, because she forgot and when I got back my dog had chewed her wound and I had to take her to the vets to be put to sleep. My daughter came to the vets in time to say goodbye but she didn't cry and seemed to shut down. I spent so much time trying to tell her that it wasn't her fault but she's now says I actually said she was to blame. Her anger levels got so high after that. She started skipping school and we ended up having lots of rows. The following year we had an opportunity to move to a better house in the same area and my daughter refused to go with me. It was so difficult. She pretty much told everyone that I had made her homeless, but she had found a house share apparently weeks beforehand and moved in with her friends. I didn't know she had organised this and was so distraught trying to get her to move with me. She met her first boyfriend then who also moved into this house with her. She has always lived independently from me since then. Our relationship has been up and down since then. Her problems with food started in her late teens too. She was bullied for being slightly overweight in her first year of senior school. After she moved out of home, she became bulimic which then turned to anorexia over the years. She was either around me/contacting me etc all the time, or I may say something wrong and she would fly into a temper and then cut off. Any attempts to show any concern for her about her eating she sees as me being 'ashamed' of her. I am not, I have always told her that I am so proud of her, but she just doesn't seem to hear that.

I have alway told her I love her, I have always told her that I am always here for her. She is such a complex person. She developed OCD whilst trying to lose weight, and also became a workaholic. She would spend hours and hours on the phone to me off-loading and sharing all the things she was doing to herself, but any attempt to give advice or anything is turned into me just thinking of myself (she now says I was a narcissistic mother), and I was being ashamed of her. There would always be someone in her life that was giving her a hard time (co-worked, friend, family, boyfriend, me etc), and if it wasn't me, she has sometimes been on the phone for 6 hours a day going round and round in circles analysing the ins and outs of it all. If I try to gently nudge her to perhaps being empathic or forgiving towards others, or try to put another view point on it, this is (now I think I see why - I wasn't validating her side), then seen as a betrayal from me and I am a useless mum as I always make her feel bad about herself.

There are a lot of things I sort of understand a bit better now. I think she really always wanted to make things better for me, and I know that when she was a little girl she used to say that she was going to grow up and work really hard and buy us a house and we would live in it together forever. It is like she then struggled with the fact that I did that for myself, and when I got my degree and kept well and sort of moved on with my life, she also struggled. She will go from painstakingly making me the most beautiful presents and cards and labelling the envelopes 'to the most wonderful mummy in the world' to saying she hates me and wouldn't care if I was alive or dead, and cutting off. I am then dead to her. She has recently left me notes that say that and has returned all the cards I have made for her over the years. She used to put them all up on  the wall where ever she lived.

I think that after I came out of hospital when she was 5 she must have been so scared of that happening again. She must have felt too much responibility as a little girl. Not child should feel like that. When she was a teenager I think she was torn between wanting to go and be a 'normal teenager' and go out with her friends, to feeling like she should stay with me because I was on my own.  She acted out a lot to cause rows so then she would storm off and probably get some space.

Now even things she used to talk about in a proud way (so proud of me for being hard working, that I did 'amazing' as a single mum etc), she now says I made her feel bad all the time - which I must have done without knowing. She has turned even what I thought were loving happy nice memories into something that sounds like a horror story for her. (I always saved up for her birthdays and Xmas, and did without so I could get her presents etc, - she now says that every time I gave her something I did this on purpose to make her feel bad - and what kind of warped mother does that kind of thing? Everything seems skewed. I do feel that I have failed her, even though I know that I did try my best. My best just was not in the slightest bit good enough and I have must have gone about things in the totally wrong way.

Since she has left here recently she has changed her phone number. She is contacting me via email. She comes here to pick up her mail which she has asked me to put in the shed so she doesn't have to see me.

Having read a page on here I realise that I have made a huge error in trying to communicate that I have concerns that she may have traits of a BPD. I was ignoring her vitriolic emails and took days to write one to her that I thought was supportive and loving whilst trying to guide her to getting some help. I asked a close cousin to read it through for me as my confidence with anything I say or do  is practically zero, and he thought it came across well. Although I didn't actually say I thought she may have BOD, I mentioned traits of the disorder that I think she may also struggle with. I knew she wouldn't be happy with it, but although she may be seeking help with her eating disorder and drug counselling (she relies on weed to self medicate), which is a huge step forward for her, I was worried that she wouldn't be on the right track with getting some help like DBT if she is a pwBPD. I know now I have made a bad mistake, but I was desperate for her to get the right help. She came back with I am the one with BPD, or NPD, and then I had 13 emails of vitriol and she phone my house phone, withheld her number and left one message after another of horrid stuff. I have since not replied as I don't know now how to undo what I have done by suggesting that some of her difficulties may be because she has some BPD traits. I have said these most likely to have come from her childhood especially the separation from me at age 5/6. I have said that I am 100% willing to attend family counselling but I did try to put boundaries down as well by saying that I would not be emotionally responding to her insults etc.

I am so sorry this is so long. It is nearly our life story. I am still on my own and feel so devastated that she is so hurt and I am so worried that she will cut off forever. If I truly thought that she would be happy in herself doing that, I would work to trying to accept that. But I don't believe deep down that she would lead a happy and healthy life if she doesn't get the right help. Maybe a health practitioner in one of the eating disorder or drug groups may identify these traits and guide her, but what if they don't? I am now scared of contacting her at all because I don't know if I can handle more vitriol from her.

So sorry again for the novel. Thank you again for your all your responses so far. I think it has helped a lot just trying to write all that down even if no one manages to read it all without falling asleep!

[Enabler]

Hi JeanGenie,

The information you have provided is awesome. To me at least it gives a very clear picture of your daughters past. You have described a mother daughter relationship where you have done amazingly well in very challenging circumstances. You have fought hard for your daughter in the face of your mothers interference, you have spent quality time with and developed hugely powerful bonds over the years. You've had some very challenging things to deal with personally and you've picked yourself off the very lows to build yourself up to the level of achieving a college degree and successful employment. Well done.

I am not a physiologist but this is my rough take on the outline of the situation.

It doesn't take a huge leap of faith to see where the genetic building blocks of the disorder (manifests itself in brain structure, emotional sensitivity and stress tolerance) have come from. Her father doesn't seem particularly grounded (emotionally mature) being that he was both abusive, and ran off with another woman when responsibility appeared on the scene. Also, you yourself have had periods of depression from a young age, maybe as a result of 'trauma' from your mothers behaviour growing up, who also presents odd parental behaviour. So looking at her gene pool there's a very good foundation for the disorder.

'Trauma' is normally thought of as something severe, brutal, malicious, intentional and obvious. Often with a child it is not that obvious, it's very subtle. Take for example the child of an alcoholic, maybe it's a family secret so mum tells kids not to talk about it to others, maybe Dad passes out on the lounge floor and Mum says "he's just resting". Children know that something is up, yet they are told that everything is fine. There is a disparity between what they see and what they are told. Being taken into your mothers custody at the age of 5 would likely be very traumatic for your daughter. Questions which were going through her head at the time were likely directed inwards at herself... .'I am to blame', 'Mummy doesn't love me', 'I am wrong' & 'I am bad'. My daughter is 5 and she knows what is going on, she's a smart cookie and she's at an age where she absorbs soo much, BUT, her interpretation of that information is still very childish, still very black and white, good or bad, love or hate. You can't lie to her as she will look at you in that 'you're kidding me' way. You may well have experienced this type of thought process as well especially during your darkest hours. The thing to take away from this is that there was trauma even though it was unintentional and unavoidable, it was traumatic for both of you.

Post your reunification, which was amazing how much you sound like you had to persevere to gain back custody of your daughter you gave her all the love and affection that a busy single mother could, well done. As you mention, your daughter had a pervasive concern that she needed to look after you, she needed to be with you and had significant abandonment fears that you may leave her again. She likely never made sense of why Mummy was taken away (how could she, it's a super adult thing to understand and I bet the vast majority of adults couldn't get their head around severe mental illness) and although she may have consciously forgotten about the original trauma, subconsciously the fear of you being taken from her again was pervasive. Add to the mix your mother sowing seeds of doubt that you were not the safe, secure, source of maternal stability your daughter could use as her rock, I'd imagine there was underlying uncertainty and insecurity.

As your daughter aged, she grew in intelligence, she grew physically and she learnt new ways to cover up these pervasive feelings, which by now had no relevance to her current situation. They were still there and still meddling with the way that she processes information, the way that she interprets other peoples behaviours and the way that she responds to things... .Emotionally, she is still a child. Like my 5yr old daughter, things, people, objects, emotions are very black and white, there's little in the way of grey and situations are very binary. If you were able to step into her mindset you would see that she struggles to understand how you can still be nice to your mother as she is all bad, all black... .by association you too are all bad, all black. Emotional adults think in shades of grey, they see that things are not always all black or all white, sometimes good people do bad things and sometimes bad people do good things. Similarly everyday things like going out or leaving her (physically or emotionally) will cause her an immense amount of anxiety and pain (abandonment fear), no one would know that they are causing her pain by doing this as it's a totally normal thing for someone to do... .but to her it's incredibly painful. She has lived with these odd feelings for so long now, and likely come to the subconscious conclusion that "I wouldn't cause myself any pain, that would be weird, so this pain must come from someone else... .hmmm... .Mum did something and and I feel bad, it must be her fault." She has made you/and others responsible for the bad feelings she experience as a result of your normal actions and reactions. e.g. She asks you to go out for dinner with you, you have a prior arrangement... .she feels disappointed that you couldn't come, she feels abandoned that you aren't coming over, she can't process this as her own generated bad feeling so she blames you for hurting her, maybe she rings you up and leaves a message calling you the worst mother ever. Does she mean it, yes, I'm afraid she kinda does at the time, she's in the red mist of emotional dysregulation where anything goes and everything is meaningful to her and everything is ABOUT HER. My 5yr old thinks the world revolves around her. She also can't differentiate between doing a bad THING and BEING bad. When I tell my daughter off I have to be very very precise about the fact that she has done a bad THING. Why? Because she so easily starts to feel and believe that her whole being is bad and she's a bad person. This is something I have only learnt recently and fear I have already emotionally wounded my emotionally sensitive D10. The tragedy with the dog was your daughters fault, she knew that, however rather than her believing it was a bad think, a mistake or an accident she believed she was bad, it made her a bad person and she was broken. I'm not sure what you could have said that would have meant she processed it in a different way, likely there was very little you could have done differently other than to say "Yes it was your fault, we all make mistakes though, forget things, it's very sad that the consequences of this mistake was that the dog had to be put down. It's incredibly sad but mistakes happen all the time." I'm doubtful that even this wouldn't have changed the outcome.

So, we likely have the genetic building blocks, we have a trauma or a series of traumas resulting in a long standing mindset and emotional immaturity. We have a set of coping mechanisms to deal with unwanted heightened negative emotions principally rejecting personal responsibility for those emotions. She has sought therapy so she at least has awareness of her feelings and pain. Often Therapy is a bit like an onion, you peel back one layer at a time, each layer is painful to remove but comes with a sense of liberation of years and years of pent up trauma. At each layer there is a risk that either the patient feels like THAT was the last layer and therefore they don't need any more therapy sessions, or that the next layer will be too painful to pull back so they pronounce 'I'm healed'. You're right, announcing to her that she had traits of BPD wouldn't have gone down very well at all, she has been this way since she was a toddler, this is her normal. It maybe normal to see a trail of destruction behind her so she knows no difference. as far as she is concerned everyone feels the things she feels... .you've just called her abnormal, broken, wrong... .the feelings she's had since she was a toddler. Over the coming days, weeks, months, years coming to bpdfamily, talking with other like-minded people, people with a vast swathe of experience will help you to understand what is going on, understand how your daughter maybe thinking about situations and importantly working out how to communicate with her such that you listen to her, and she feels more comfortable.

We're all here for you JG,

Enabler xx

[JeanGenie]

Thank you so much  Enabler for taking all that effort to reply.

It has only really been in the last 6 months or so that I have been able to try and piece things together at all, and I am still so new to learning about this disorder. i didn't even think about possible links to BPD before a friend suggested it. I think one of the easing why my daughter left home and stayed independent for so long was because she was worried about how she kept losing her temper and what effect her behaviour was having on me. I  think it has taken her a long time to try and apportion all the blame to me, and maybe some therapy has started that process and as you say, not all the layers are peeled yet.

I am so gutted that I didn't read the article on how NOT to try and help the person with possible BPD traits get some treatment BEFORE I thought about making these suggestions to my d. It was out of desperation that it may help her get the right kind of help. I am so grateful to have found a place to learn more about the right kind of way to communicate with her. I would do anything to try and help make things better for her.

Can I ask if anyone has any advice on how I can now move forward with communications? Is it better to start a new thread with a new heading when asking a new question like this? I am ashamed to admit that I am really scared of contacting my d. I am still shocked by how hurtful her words are, and am finding it hard to cope afterwards. I have read another post and the advice is to just respond with limited words. I have always tried to just say - 'no matter what you think or feel I will always love you and am here for you', but this seems to just fuel her anger. I have left it this time after her last lot of emails, and not yet responded, but now do not know what I can say that may help her feel better or try and amend what I have said to her. We have always spoken openly about my mental health and other people's mental health issues - and no matter what they are have always been viewed in our house without stigma or judgement and without shame. Which is why I struggled to understand why she would accuse me of being 'ashamed' of her eating disorder. I do not believe any mental ill health is any different from any physical ill health. Maybe I was so clouded by my desperation to steer her towards help that I stupidly 'took a punt' with a suggestion. Normally I do always walk on eggshells and try and be very careful what I say, but I panicked that she may never get the right help for herself.

I have always apologised to her for anything that I have felt I may have done to upset her. I have found through my own experiences that it means a lot to have a parent just say they are sorry for making me feel bad, because I know that people make mistakes, and I know that it helps if they acknowledge them. But this doesn't seem to have helped much with my d. But I am learning that maybe she does not think like me because of her own story? I have always tried to bring her up to be a compassionate and forgiving person towards others and yes, even compassionate and forgiving towards ourselves, but she has always struggled to forgive others for their failings.

Is it better to continue to apologise and be honest and say that I was so worried about her that I thought I was helping or is that further re confirming that she is 'broken' in her eyes? I didn't actually say I thought she had BPD, but I did suggest that treatment such as DBT which is used in treating people with BPD may help her with coping with painful fears such as fear of abandonment etc (Probably just as bad in her eyes though, and I so regret saying anything).

As she has not had a proper diagnosis (or if she has, as an adult she has not shared that with me and I would not be able to have access to that info), it is so hard to move forward I how to communicate as I feel I am second guessing a bit. I know this probably sounds awful but I really struggle with not knowing if she has a disorder or if she is just being horrible. I have family members and friends  who have seen how she is and how she can be with me and have told me that she is in complete control, knows what she is doing, knows how to hurt, is able to function, is trying to make me feel awful on purpose, is just a mean person and is genetically 'like her dad' etc etc. Is it normal to question your own offspring's true nature when they can say terrible things? I have to fight my own natural dendencies to just want run away and tell her she is better off without me if that is how she feels and all this just helps to add to the guilt.

I just want to say to all you ambassadors and other responders that have taken the time to reply that I am so grateful and I think you are amazing to take all this time to look after people on here.  I have only been a member of this group for a few days and I have learnt so much already. I just wish I had found you earlier.

Thank you again x

[Feeling Better]

Hello JeanGenie

My heart goes out to you, reading your posts took me back to when I first came here, I was just like you, desperate, blaming myself and feeling a complete failure as a mother. I believed everything that my uBPD son said about me, I too was broken. Thank goodness that like you I found this site, the support that I have received here has helped me immensely. It is so hard I know, not to take what our adult children say about us personally, it’s obvious that you are a very loving mother and you are not the terrible mother that your daughter says you are.

You are not to blame for your daughters disorder, you didn’t cause it and it’s not your fault that your daughter is predisposed to developing it  

I understand completely why you mentioned about BPD traits to your daughter, sadly that is often not what someone with BPD wants to hear and they just retaliate saying that you are the one with the problem. I wanted to help my son, just like you wanted to help your daughter, unfortunately unless they ask for help there is nothing that you can do. Your daughter is an adult, as is my son and that was a hard lesson for me to learn. My son is in denial that there is anything wrong with him, preferring to believe that it is me who needs help.

My son is currently NC (no contact) with me and I have found it really difficult to come to terms with. You have previously had a period of two years of NC from your daughter, that must have been devastating for you, and now you are facing NC again. I really feel for you.

JeanGenie, don’t sacrifice yourself for the sake of your relationship with your daughter, I say this because that is precisely what I did. I feel the desperation in what you write because you write the same things that I did. You need to take care of yourself, self care is extremely important for you right now. And support, what support are you getting?

I am so pleased for you that you have reached out to us, you have taken the first step x  

[Feeling Better]

JeanGenie

You posted while I was writing my post and I just want to say something about all the apologising you say that you did in your most recent post. I did that too, whatever my son said to me about his childhood, about me, what was wrong in his life, I apologised for all of it. And then he told me that I’d apologised so many times that my apologies were meaningless. You ask whether you should continue to apologise and I have to say, in my opinion, I would stop apologising.

FB x

[JeanGenie]

Hello FB,

Thank you so much for your reply and such kind words. I am so sorry that you have had these experiences too. I know it is a relief to speak to others with similar experiences, but I'm sure none of us would want any one else to go through it, or for our poor pwu/dBPD (if that is right?) to feel like they must do.

Can I ask if you have any other children? I feel that if I had had other children then a lot of the pressure that my D was feeling (feeling too responsible etc) whilst she grew up may have not been so acute. But maybe it wouldn't have mattered as other people must have other children who may not have the same genetic predisposition and have been ok? (I'm just learning about that!).

I am so scared of making a wrong move now, but I absolutely take on board your advice about the apologising, thank you for that insight. Part of me is so confused and gets repeatedly shocked that I feel almost like a rabbit in the headlights, pretty much stuck on any clear thoughts as to what to do for the best for her. I am so glad I found this site   (not sure if that bouncy up and down emoji thing worked!). I am like a dinosaur with a computer!

Do you mind if I ask - if you feel like things will ever change with your son or has it helped you to just try and work on acceptance of how things are now? I know I need to look after myself more (notes that it is really stupid o'clock again and needs to be up early!). I have limited support from my family as I dont really share all with my mum anymore, I sometimes talk to one of my sisters, but she is quite anti my D as she just believes she is being nasty. If I try to defend my D by saying she must be ill, my sister will get a bit irritated. She empathises I think, but is trying to protect me I suppose.

My best support (this may sound sad - but it is just me!), is from my dog. Ironically my lovely D actually bought her for me just before she cut off for that long period last time. It was during a 'nice' phase and she insisted on buying her for me, did all the research and found her etc. very shortly after that she cut off. I wonder if subconsciously she bought her for me so that she would feel able to cut off? She may have felt that I could have coped better with another dog - a reason for me to live if I didn't have her? I don't know. (Tbh, this is probably true, I am not sure that I could have coped with that cut off if I hadn't had my dog). My D has done some amazingly good and lovely things for me and others, but then can be so awful if she has a 'bad' phase. My dog and my garden are my good things. I am so lucky to have my dog and I have always been lucky to love connecting with nature - which is free! (Well, sort of, if i don't go mad at the garden centre!). I have a few good friends, but try to be careful not to share too much with them as I don't want to put on them, and for them to get fed up with me. I am still a bit over sensitive myself in a social phobic way, so try very hard to put on a brave face and a smile around others. But I do sometimes struggle when they are all talking about how wonderful their families and adult children are  - or sometimes even when I see a healthy mother/daughter adult relationship on TV or out and about it makes me so sad to think how things are between me and my daughter, or how she is struggling with just trying to live her life feeling like she does. Last Xmas we had contact and I felt almost normal-ish on the run up becasue I could actually buy her advent calendar presents etc, and I made her loads of stuff and could actually give her things. The previous Xmas I hand made her card  and took a photo of it to email it to her as I didn't even have an address to send it to. This year will be the same again. Another Mother's Day without hearing from her. I try to hold onto the fact that although she has changed her number and not told me where she is, she has still kept her email address, and she did this last time. However, she tells me to not contact her as hearing from me ruins her day etc. she will be quiet for a while and then I get a barrage of abuse for not contacting her. She still has all her stuff here so will at some point have to come and get it, so that may be why she is keeping the email address active.

I rarely see anyone when I am really down. But my dog is always there, I really don't know how I would cope without her. Sometimes, even on a really dark day that lunatic of a joyful hound can raise a smile and if not she gives the best cuddles! The first support I have had directly about my D is here really.

Thank you so much again FB

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[Enabler]

Morning FB,

Some of the best in things in life are free... .dogs and a walk in the wild. They are great motivators to get out and about at least once a day come rain or shine. It's not something a person might normally do without a dog but earlier this year I found myself wishing for it to rain so I could go for a walk in it. There's something great about putting a waterproof on and going out in the tipping rain for a brisk walk. The feeling of sensory connection is awesome. Endorphines are natures anti-depressants as I'm sure you'll agree.

For obvious reasons, no doubt your sense of helplessness, you want to 'solve' this for your daughter. I get that, I would do anything including put my life on the line for my 3 girls. The reality is that you can't 'solve' this for her, you can't change the way she processes information and you can't change the way that she responds when she's emotionally triggered... .only she can. She's enlightened herself to some extent, maybe opened some very very deep historic wounds, but she's not yet sought to heal them. Only once she has worked on healing the wound will she be able to work on the behavioural side of herself. The way I understand it is that each of us have an emotional bucket inside us. 'Healthy' adults have a virtually water tight bucket which we have full of parental love, I can love myself, I can love other people because I have love in my love bucket to give. Your daughters history 'core' wounds mean that the love you provide to her leaks out, this means that she can hardly love herself let alone others. That bucket needs to be fixed. My feeling is that the only way that she can do that is by coming to terms with the fact that you were sick, which was no fault of your own, you did your best and were a good mother, personally own the fact that her concerns for your safety and mental stability were her feelings, not something you imposed on her and finally free herself from the incorrect pervasive need to worry about you abandoning her. My guess is that she is trying to break free from this mindset by pushing you away mentally and physically. By 'painting you black' and mentally blaming her for all her anxieties.

People with BPD pwBPD, are exceptionally good at depicting one sided stories where they are not to blame for anything at all... .this returns to the core allergy to guilt and shame. Therapist sessions especially incomplete therapy i.e. where she stops early, can easily lead to a situation where they uncover some information which leads to a narrative which they commit to. This narrative could be where someone else is completely to blame for the problems they have since addressing their own participation in a situation is much much harder to conceptualise. You are making yourself accountable for your part in the narrative, being accountable is important and requires true adult emotional strength to lay yourself bare, put your hand up and say "I did that"... .well done. BUT, there comes a point where you have made yourself accountable, what is done and now she needs to make herself accountable for her own emotions and her own actions. By constantly apologising, in some respects you are rescuing her from her own accountability, you are providing her with an emotional dumping ground for her feelings... .feelings that since she is an adult you are now not responsible for. It's tough for both of you. My mother in-law for example is a very volatile individual, she has no ability to accept responsibility and an inability to control her frustration over the smallest thing. I believe the only way for my wife to accept the wounds of her childhood (and adulthood) is for her to accept that her mother has BPD. Once she radically accepts this she will then be able to rationalise how her loving mother could also lambaste her, act like she hated her and act like she was totally unwanted at other times. Once she has healed this wound, accepted things for the way they were/are she can move through her persistent sense of being a victim to see how she is actually hurting others around her NOW.

You are still important to your daughter... .the opposite to Love is not hate, it's indifference. Hate implies that she still cares. From what you have written, despite all you historical problems, you have the capacity to love. Love is ability to put someone else first, to self sacrifice, to think of others above yourself, to have compassion, to want the best for others, seeing joy in what they do what they achieve and what they experience. I am sure a little piece of you would die, but if you knew with absolute certainty that your D would be happy forever if she never saw you again... .you would do that. Your D is finding herself at the moment, she checks in (with insults) every now and again to make sure you are there, possibly to receive a loving response, an apology. Change your behaviour... .if she sends a rude abusive email, come to the board and discuss it, don't send an apologetic response immediately. Have you read anything on validation? It's very very powerful, it enhances the kindness in your communication, and suppresses unintentionally painful parts:

https://bpdfamily.com/content/communication-skills-dont-be-invalidating

Be as strong as you can, kindness and compassion for your daughter can never be seen as a bad thing... .but sometimes the kindest and most compassionate thing is to allow shoes to drop and act as a coach to help piece lives back together.

Enabler

P.S. Keeping one thread is good, it helps other board members to keep track of your story and saves people going over old ground. If it's been a while since you posted by all means start a new thread with any specific concerns that you want answers to.

P.P.S. You're doing just fine on the IT front (thumbs up)

[JeanGenie]

Hi Enabler,

You have really explained some things to me in such a clear way, thank you so much. The 'broken bucket' analogy especially.

My D has had quite a lot of attempts at therapy in the past. She has said (with the hint of a bit of pride maybe at times), that most therapists she has had have had to stop working with her because she is so 'complex'. Or a therapist that she has liked initially suddenly becomes too challenging and then she has disengaged. She hasn't been able to cope with eating disorder groups before because she finds them too restrictive/prescriptive/too controlling, and it makes her feel like someone is trying to control her too much.

Thank you for the link on validation. It looks really useful. I have had a quick look, but will definitely go through it properly. I have not yet responded after her last bout of insults, but was really thinking of trying to apologise  in order to try and start up a better, more positive period of contact. But I am so glad that I can now talk to people on here now first to check that I am more along the right track in the best way to respond. In the past the only way that she has come round or softened a bit is if I disect her emails bit by bit and accept responsibly for each point she has made, or apologise or maybe a lot of it was just validating what she was saying. But I do not think that is working anymore and you and Feeling Better are so right, I need to change my behaviour to try and halt this pattern or cycle, and enevitably do the best thing for her.

Is it usual for a pwBPD to not ever apologise for their outbursts etc? My D has occasionally said 'I'm sorry if you got upset, but... .' In the past, but she will not ever actually apologise for anything she has said or done. Is this because they really feel they are right in that moment, or is it another form of not being able to take responsibility for their actions? Perhaps both? I am not looking for apologies (I am well beyond that!), but I am just interested to try and learn how that part ticks.

Also, is it possible for someone wBPD traits during their lucid times, to actively take information on board, and then reuse it in a skewed way in an outburst? For example - my D is very articulate and some of her perfectionist traits lead her to be very enquiring and she can research things very thoroughly at times. When we have been close, she will push me to talk about subjects or people that I know she has had issues with. She will seem very together and can respond very positively. It sounds bad, but I also feel she almost 'goads' me into talking about a sensitive subject. She can then throw something back at me when in a rage - something from a 'nice' conversation we had years ago but twist what I said all around. My query is, do pwBPD actually HEAR things differently when they receive the info, or are they reflecting and then trying to search for any 'ammunition' to throw back during a rage? I don't know if I am explaining it well or not. I think it is about them trying to devalue. So do they process the original information wrong at the time, and then ruminate on it till eventually it eats away at them, or does this process take a more complex path in order to use it as a devaluation - which I suppose is a coping strategy? I think I've just confuse myself more and not explained what I was getting at very well, but if it's ok, I will leave that in to see if anyone can make any sense! I am really trying to understand. I was thinking about good examples s I walked the dog earlier, but now my brain has gone on strike.

As she is currently gone very quiet, Would it now be a good time to send a quick email, just saying 'hope you are safe, always thinking of you and love you'? I expect another barrage perhaps, but I don't want her to think i have 'abandoned' her. Is doing this actually re confirming to her that her behaviour is acceptable? I fear that I got near to the point where I would have just not tried to contact her myself again, but I think in myself, that feels like I am regressing myself to a child-like emotion of hiding away because of being afraid of getting hurt again, or being scared that I myself could not cope with anymore horrible stuff/being a coward (I therefore need to get a grip!). I have always struggled with fear of confrontation myself, and was always quite in awe (and quite proud) of my D's ability to stand up for herself when she was younger. It is now like her 'standing up for herself' skills have been reinforced with steroids.

Thank you again, I have to try and make her Xmas card now. I thought about not doing it this year, as I will have to photograph it and send it via email again. (and she has also recently given me back every other one I have made for her in the past). This was such a significant message from her, as it has always been a very special thing I do for her each Xmas and birthday. However, Although it was very upsetting that she had given them back, she hadn't ripped them up. She had ripped the decorated envelopes up, but not the cards. I thought that was quite hopeful (I grab that straw no matter how small I'm afraid).

Also, (sorry, I do feel like I have been going on), your comment on the 'opposite of love being indifference, not hate'. I properly welled up then (in a good way). Thank you so much for that. Something to really hold onto. Does this also apply when someone makes a huge effort to go out of their way to say they hate you when they are 'calm'? My D filled up my landline answering machine with very calm, cold,, concisely worded - (although very sarcastic at times) narrative on how much she hated me. She wanted to point out time and time again that she meant it, and that she wasn't angry and then couldn't care less if I was alive or dead etc... .This was harder to process and more scary than when she has screamed at me in a rage.

JeanGenie

[Enabler]

Hey JG,

You've made some great points which are worth some discussion and hopefully some learning here... .MEMORIES... .

So, I think the typical way we think about memories is maybe like a book on the shelf of a library, we pick the book up, read and place it back on the shelf in exactly the same place as before in it's perfectly unaltered way... .well this is not the case, each time we access a memory we take the book off the shelf, ascribe some alterations to it based on our current emotional interpretation and then file the new memory in a totally different place. So, over time memories can be manipulated, polished of imperfections or situations remembered in a vastly worse way than they actually were. This article explains (it's quite long):

https://www.thecut.com/2016/11/remembering-childhood-trauma-and-abuse-that-never-happened.html

So, the more times we access a memory the more it's likely to be corrupted by our emotional manipulation, and the more emotionally extreme we are when we recall these memories the greater they are likely to be corrupted. This brings me on to the next important part of BPD. Studies found that pwBPD had a tenancy to spend more time ruminating, mulling things, churning things over often in a negative depressive cycle. This rumination cycle is one of the drivers of maladaptive coping mechanisms, the individual may be so worked up/depressed by their constant negative unproductive rumination about a subject they may well hurt themselves, get drunk, do drugs or have sex just to stop the thinking/pain. Please see link below to a particularly good set of slides which builds up the Emotional Cascade Model:

https://borderlinepersonalitydisorder.org//wp-content/uploads/2015/03/EMOTIONAL-CASCADES.pdf 

These 2 things can certainly work on memories short and long to manipulate memories in an emotional slant which tends to be negative, and also importantly in a way that makes them innocent of any wrongdoing. A pwBPD can recall memories, twist them over time to a point where they have absolved themselves of any guilt or shame and remember them perfectly to the smallest detail... .AND THEY BELIEVE THEM WHOLEHEARTEDLY AS FACT.

If someone wanted you to feel their pain and feel hurt regardless of whether or not they meant it, would it be painful and believable if they said it in a joking voice? The desire is for you to feel as bad as they do... .as bad as they do about themselves... .and that needs to be believable.Can you think of anyone that you genuinely, to the core hate? Do you actually feel like ringing them up and telling them so? I can't say I do.

Sorry this is brief and a bit delayed, it's the season for office Christmas Parties... .things are awfully slow for me today!

Keep sharing your thoughts and unravelling that ball of string. It will take time, be patient but it will come with knowledge and time. Have a great weekend.

Enabler 

[Feeling Better]

Can I ask if you have any other children? I feel that if I had had other children then a lot of the pressure that my D was feeling (feeling too responsible etc) whilst she grew up may have not been so acute. But maybe it wouldn't have mattered as other people must have other children who may not have the same genetic predisposition and have been ok? (I'm just learning about that!).

I have two daughters as well as my son, he is the youngest, so theoretically my parenting skills should have been quite good by the time he came along. I personally don’t think that if your daughter had siblings that it would have made any difference. In fact you could have had a lot more to cope with as you would have potentially been dealing with the effects of living with a pwBPD on them as well as yourself. In my case my son also has nothing to do with one of his sisters, the sister he was closest to growing up, the one who would have done anything for him, and quite often did.

I am so scared of making a wrong move now, but I absolutely take on board your advice about the apologising, thank you for that insight. Part of me is so confused and gets repeatedly shocked that I feel almost like a rabbit in the headlights, pretty much stuck on any clear thoughts as to what to do for the best for her.

I often used to feel like that rabbit in the headlights that you describe here, frightened, not knowing what to do next, terrified of making things worse. Have you read about FOG? Here is the link for you in case you’ve not come across it before:

Emotional Blackmail. Fear, Obligation and Guilt FOG

Do you mind if I ask - if you feel like things will ever change with your son or has it helped you to just try and work on acceptance of how things are now?

I would like to hope that things might change with my son. It has helped me so much though to accept that I have no control over what choices he makes and unless he seeks help for himself I don’t see that anything will change, however that doesn’t stop me from periodically reaching out to him.

I have limited support from my family as I dont really share all with my mum anymore

I don’t share anymore with my mum either. Does this make you feel sad?

I am so glad that you have your dog, I have my dog too and like you I tend to think things through while I am out with my dog. I have worked many things out that way and I usually return home in a much better frame of mind than when I left.

I get how you feel about your friends, it can be difficult sharing what is going on in your life, quite often they don’t understand, especially if they know your daughter too, they probably wouldn’t see that side of her.

FB x

[once removed]

I am so sorry this is so long. It is nearly our life story.

no worries JG... .it all gives us a better picture of how we can support you. lets take it in pieces. it sounds like your daughter had a series of tragedies from an early age, and BPD, by definition, makes for a set of poor coping mechanisms.

so, you have a complicated relationship with your mom, huh? do i have it right that she had custody of your daughter when she was removed?

being separated from ones parents, especially at that age, is traumatic. it would not have helped for her to hear you being badmouthed. she was in a difficult enough position, and to hear that would be like being told to take sides against her mother, along with everything else she was experiencing.

I think a lot of what my dwuDBP (now 29) ( not sure if that is right? - I must print off that list!) considers to be my fault in the way she struggles now really is because of me.

I think my d must have thought me being ill was her fault.

and it may have been the origin of these kinds of conflicting thoughts.

whats your relationship with your mom like right now? does you daughter have any contact with her?

[JeanGenie]

Hello all,

Firstly thank you so much for your replies to my posts. I am so grateful to you for spending so much time and effort in replying. I wrote a post last night responding to all the points and queries, but unfortunately I came off the page to look up a link and lost it all when I returned to this page! Lesson learnt! I will try to repeat what I wrote.

I can't remember how to do excerpts (I know I found it once but brain like a chocolate tea pot - holds nothing for long). But Once Removed, in response to your query about my mum, my D cut off from the rest of the family about 5 years ago. She had  contact with them during her childhood, but my D and my mum had 'words' when they last met, and my D has not spoken to her since. My D has cut off from me in the past because she does not understand why I would have anything to do with 'the evil grandmother' and other family members and thinks I am weak.

After they had had their fall out, my D kept continually trying to bring up all the issues she has with the family. I did think I was trying to be supportive, as I did agree with a lot of what she was saying. Having looked more into the validation lessons and links (thank you again for the link Enabler), I know now that the one time I tried to change the subject (for fear of having to go over the same things yet again and knowing that my D would get very wound up about it all), I was being invalidating to her. I think she took it that I was betraying her and siding with my mother I think. I think also she used to see 'me and her against the world' I think, and she just did not understand why I needed anyone else - especially when they had caused such hurt.

When I became ill (when D was 5), I had gone to be with good friends and they would have happily looked after her. She could have gone to the same school and she was very close to their children. When they called my mother to let her know I had been taken into hospital, my mother came and took her against my wishes. She was taken a long way away and my mother sent her to a new school. So my poor daughter lost her mum (and wasn't close enough to visit me), all her friends, her home, school and everything she knew. My mother had never even had her for an overnight stay prior to this. Also, whilst in her 'care', my mother reinstated contact back with my daughter's father - (even though months before I had been advised by my mother, and all my family not to give him my new address because he had displayed threatening and abusive behaviour towards me and my daughter). It was all a big mess really. And I was stuck in hospital trying to get better as soon as possible. When I appealed against my section (and won), my mother decided to say that I was still not well enough to have my daughter back and wouldn't even allow me to see her. I then had to go to court to get her back (it was immediately settled in my favour). 

I have always tried to practice forgiveness towards others, and after working hard at it for a couple of years, I came to terms with how my family have been. I chose to believe that my mother was doing what she felt was best at the time. My daughter had access to the family after that. Her father lost interest and still would not pay any support for her, when pressed on this, he chose to not have any more contact (he also did not like it that I insisted on any contact being supervised). This I believed had a very damaging affect on her.

I did not realise that my D was harbouring resentment or anger against my mother and other family members for a long time. She never talked about it or gave a inclination that this was brewing inside her. My D was distant anyway with the family after she left home, but we organised a 21st birthday do for her which was held near my mum's, and she always sent/received birthday and Xmas cards and presents etc. She was 24 (now 29) when she last saw any of them, this was at my mother's 70th. My D agreed to go, but would not stay for the meal (her eating disorder had well taken hold by then). This was when my mum and her fell out Initially.

I try not to share too much with my mum because the last time I did that she contacted my D and after that my D cut off from me for about 2 years. My D had called me distressed about issues with her flat mate and threatened suicide but then immediately put the phone down. so as I couldn't find her, in shear desperation  I texted her ex-boyfriend (who she was still in contact with at the time) to ask if he had seen her. My D went into a huge rage with me when she found out I had contacted him, and was badgering me with abusive texts and calls. I saved with my mum how bad things had been so she then called my D. I think my mother was trying to 'help' but what ever was said, my D was so enraged that from her point of view that was that.

So D still not in contact with any of the family. Although during this last period of contact with me, she would constantly ask about them  - (odd as this is sensitive territory), and she would often become very agitated  during discussions about them. When she came to stay with me recently after the break up of her relationship (her first time back 'home' since she left home), she was adamant that I not tell any of them she was here. She did not want me to tell them anything about her etc. however, when I had contact with my family and she checked with me that I had not told them anything - which I initially hadn't, she flew into a huge rage telling me that I was 'obviously ashamed' of her, as why wouldn't I tell anyone she was here and how I should deal with my shame issues etc.

Nowadays I tell my mum just a précis version of events. She likes to make a drama out of most things, and likes to be the 'saviour' of the hour (she is currently 'saving' 3 foster kids!). She will tell anyone anything, and I know that she will sit down with complete strangers to me (she lives I a rural close knit community) and tell them all about my past mental health and how I'm now having to cope with my D etc. she likes to tell a story, and she is very good at it!  I don't want to be the centre of any of that. I love her, and accept her, as I do all my family but am happy not living anywhere near them! I keep in contact by phone and a few visits a year.

Feeling Better, So sorry, I can see what you mean about having other siblings and the possible effect on them being around a pwBPD. I alway thought that everything would have seemed so intensely focused on her for my D - being an only child with a single mum (and that this may have attributed to her feelings of guilt leaving me growing up etc), but my heart goes out to you and anyone else who does have those extra stresses of supporting other siblings through it too. I have had a look at the FOG info, and read some of the posts following that link. I realise that my fears and guilts especially are many, but I see now that I am lucky to not have to worry about another/other children.

The article on Memories was very interesting, thank you Enabler. I am still trying to process the processes that a pwBPD may go through - and unravel that ball of string.

I have been thinking a lot about validating. I absolutely agree that this way of communicating is a great approach for everyone - not just for pwBPD. Can i ask though - as we are human, and we can't possibly give a perfect response every single time a pwBPD communicates with us - does trying our best to validate increase the 'walking on egg shells' anxiety even more?

for example: I have spent 6 hours a day some days on the phone to my D (I realise now this may have not been good - or enabling/disabling her ability to develop better coping skills?). I have spent days and days trying my best to listen to her, be there for her, trying to help her through things (normally issues with work colleagues, boyfriend, house mates etc). I have done this whilst trying to work full time, do additional studies/support others (friends/some family), etc. if only once she calls and I am not 100% on the ball, she will start by saying 'what's up with you - you sound off'. I then say sorry, I'm a bit tired. Then it's 'well, obviously talking to me is not doing you any good is it?' - phone slams down. then it will escalate till she is calling me a rubbish (obviously much more colourfully!), mum who can't even offer emotional support to her only daughter etc etc.

If my D does give me a chance to have contact with her again. (Hopefully I will have learnt a lot more by then with the help of this site), how can I maintain things? If I am not doing everything 'perfectly' my D will get upset. Especially if she is not diagnosed, or gets treatment? I suppose that is where boundaries come in? But how can you set boundaries around just 'being human' (wrong tone of voice, being distracted, being tired, not being perfect)?

Again, I am not sure if I am making sense. Can I also ask - do some pwBPD also tend to be very driven, tenacious people? My D was a very 'strong willed' child, and quite 'stubborn'. She did seem to 'cut her nose off to spite her face' quite a lot. I worry that this tendency means that when she cuts off she won't back down. It has always had to be me that almost has to grovel enough until she comes round a bit. (Again, I take on board the previous advice about apologising too much etc). It is like I have to give her a 'way out' of the corner she has backed herself into. Is this a good thing to try and do or is it not allowing a pwBPD to develop better coping strategies? Again, will some of the techniques of better ways of communicating with a pwBPD only work if that person is also getting the right kind of therapy?

One last thing (sorry!) -  Feeling  Better (I should put an excerpt to your reply here?),  - when you said about accepting the fact that you have no control over the choices your son makes has helped you, that reminded me that that working on acceptance has saved me a bit in the past. I have had some ACT (Acceptance and Commitment Therapy) in the past though the NHS (for depression),  and it did really help me. I struggled a bit with CBT, as it kind of made me feel a bit worse as 'these thoughts/feelings are wrong - do this to change them'. CBT absolutely works very well for an awful lot of people, but it didn't really for me. ACT is about accepting that the way you feel now is 'normal' for you at this present moment as we are all human, and will have times of struggle. This is normal, This is being human (the feelings aren't 'wrong'). Then the work is about how you accept things through committing to looking after yourself, (using mindfulness, finding and connecting to your 'purpose' etc). I went looking for a link last night (this is where I lost the post!), but you may possibly have had a link already approved for this site? I perhaps need to revisit the paperwork and redo the workshop myself.

Well, thank you all very much again. You have all give me a lot of pointers for further learning, and I really appreciate your feedback on questions that have come up for me. I will continue to read and go through the lessons.

All the very best

JeanGenie x

[Enabler]

Morning JG,

Thank you for the lovely post, it was a real pleasure reading even if the topic itself isn't that pleasurable. There's lots of parts so apologies if I don't address all of the things you raised. My holistic thought is that you have been reacting in a certain way, maybe out of FOG... .

Fear that you may not speak to your daughter, or that she may do something to harm herself.
Obligation as a mother to be there for your daughter. She plays on this and defines to you what does and does not constitute good/bad maternal behaviour. In essence it's emotional blackmail. She knows that you want to be a good parent and that's important to you (especially since it sounds like you define your mother as not very good)... .it's the important things that are most likely to be weaponised.
Guilt from your own emotional troubles, the period of time your daughter spent in your mothers care and the knowledge that your D spent many years concerned for your emotional strength.

Reacting out of FOG makes for survival but it's rarely the solution to the problem. It leads to behaviours such as appeasement, self sacrifice, Enabling (I know this world very well, and still do).  I believe you are getting to the point of radical acceptance. This means that you are reaching a point where you understand where you are at, you understand that you cannot solve this for your daughter and you realise that the ways you have 'handled' her in the past somewhat enable the continuation of her behaviours. This isn't a comfortable place to be in, the comfortable place was the place where you spent your time and effort solving or at least attempting to solve your daughters frustrations... .it likely felt comfortable, at least she needed you and was communicating with you... .whenever you push back she runs away and ignores you for periods of time.

In reality I am not going to pretend I have anything other than theoretical teaching for you. In practice the idea is to use the push pull in your favour... .when they pull, you pull them HARD... .they push, you push back small... .net net they should get closer. As much as she wants to hurt you, she also wants to have a respectful and loving relationship with her. Minimising the damage she thinks she may have done when she dysregulates maybe one way of helping her feel that she doesn't have anything to be ashamed about when she wants to return to loving you again. I don't know if any of the other board members have experience of saying "I am going to ignore all calls from you for the next 24 hours, all text messages and voice mails will be deleted without reading or listening to." On the one hand I guess this could be invalidating to her, but on the other hand it reduces the damage done and sets a boundary of "I will take my ears elsewhere". Another method that comes to mind is the Ju-Jitsu Parenting model... .it's very effective BUT since your daughter is an adult, intelligent and very articulate it may frustrate her quickly.

www.drcachildress.org/asp/admin/getFile.asp?RID=63&TID=6&FN=pdf

I hope other board members with experience on how to keep the emotional ball in her court can help you here.

Enabler

[JeanGenie]

Thank you so much again Enabler. Another great informative response. You have summed up really well ( and clarified for me), the FOG process by relating it directly to my situation.

Do you call 'pushing back' setting boundaries? The paragraph (I still can't quote!), where you say 'when they pull - pull them hard' do you mean when they try to come back or reconnect? are there some examples in terms of what someone actually does when they push or pull? I am trying to read as much as I can but haven't got through it all by any means yet!

I definitely think you are right that the less effect she thinks she is having on me emotionally when she is  dysregulated the less of a hard time she may give herself when she has calmed down. I do not know though if there has been a change in her after this last episode. I feel that she tried to say such specifically hurtful things this time it has worried me more than ever. When we connected again after her last cutting off period, she once shared with me that not having contact made her very suicidal (she did also say that it was the best thing she had ever done during a few rants). She mentioned once that she would not do that to me. What if she has done it even more to the extreme this time to free herself in her mind of an obligation to me as her mum (I have been so bad my mum is better off without me etc)? It is something that I have been churning over so much in my mind, I'm very tearful all the time and can feel that downward spiral taking hold a bit more as the days go by. She was/is my world. There was only me and her, and it's all just gone so horribly wrong for her. I do feel that I have failed her completely and no matter how hard I tried over the last 29 years I have just succeeded in making  her life so difficult and hard and unhappy.
i know the key is acceptance, and I'm trying hard to work on that. I can't help but think all the time now that she would have been better off if I had given her to someone better. I never once thought of giving her up. Even though I knew I was going to be on my own bringing her up, I just loved her so much from the moment I had her, as we all do with our children. I never wanted this little being to ever feel like she had been abandoned, that I didn't want her. And now that is exactly how she thinks, even after everything.

[once removed]

I have been thinking a lot about validating. I absolutely agree that this way of communicating is a great approach for everyone - not just for pwBPD. Can i ask though - as we are human, and we can't possibly give a perfect response every single time a pwBPD communicates with us - does trying our best to validate increase the 'walking on egg shells' anxiety even more?

validation is an important life skill. it helps us build trust, it can help open up the lines of communication.

its not something that is meant to solve every problem. you cant, for example, validate your way out of a dysregulation. or we can run the risk of validating the invalid.

once you master proactive validation (learn to express it sincerely), its often best to think in terms of "dont be invalidating". invalidation makes everything worse.

for example: I have spent 6 hours a day some days on the phone to my D (I realise now this may have not been good - or enabling/disabling her ability to develop better coping skills?).

its reasonable to set limits. being supportive of your daughter is great. a lot of us have probably supported someone for six hours here and there. dont do it out of fear or obligation. you need to be able to do what you need to do. you can let her know you can talk later.

from your example, shes not going to like it at first, if ever. you may need to adjust your approach. finding a good time to take a break, and saying you need to do this or that, but that youll talk to her in a few hours, few days, whatever, might help.

Again, will some of the techniques of better ways of communicating with a pwBPD only work if that person is also getting the right kind of therapy?

they are techniques that work with anyone and everyone. they work best when they are delivered sincerely, not as if youre reading from a script. it will take some practice. you can work it out here, and you can practice with anyone you know. i use the techniques all the time.

are there some examples in terms of what someone actually does when they push or pull?

there is a book on BPD entitled "i hate you, dont leave me". that is the essence of push/pull... .push/pull is "come here, go away". at a certain point, it can really become a dynamic between two people, not just something pwBPD do. its best not to get caught up in the cycle.

boundaries are often misunderstood... .good boundaries are a lifestyle, that revolves around living our values. more here: https://bpdfamily.com/content/setting-boundaries

[Enabler]

Hi JG,

Reading your post I sensed that you are starting to blame yourself for your daughters emotional problems. As much as the course of events that contributed (or didn’t) to your daughter developing an emotional sensitivity disorder maybe to do with you, I’m pretty certain that holding yourself culpable for the way things have happened is misplaced. What if you’d been involved in a car accident that was not your fault and was in a coma for 6m? Your daughter may have developed similar abandonment fears could she have not? From what you have told us you have acted as a great role model, provided bountiful love and attention post the problems... .where do you draw the line with regards to what is and isn’t your fault? The majority of parents do their best, we all mess up, we’re all responsible for some bad memories, wiring issue or cognitive blips... .what has been has been, what is... .is. Next time you start thinking about how you’ve messed up, I challenge you to ‘turn the other way’ take a walk and remember all those awesome times you gave your daughter, what did you do that other mums didn’t do? Spiral up, not down.

What I mean by push pull... .eg

Mum, I’m in a terrible way, I’m depressed and really miss you.

Okay sweetie, I’m here for you, tell me what’s going on... .PUUUUUUUULLLLLLLLLL

Mum, I just wanted to say you’re a terrible mum and I hate you

I’m sorry you feel this way and I’m saddened that you feel I was a terrible mother to you. I want to speak to you and would love to catch up but when things are more respectful. I love you so much and miss you so dearly... .click... .no response until communication is respectful... .  STANDING FIRM SMALL PUSH

She called you because she needed you. You are there for her if she is going to be respectful and NOT abusive. I know you love her dearly but you are not an emotional punching bag. Note there is no blame, no heightened emotion, you are her emotional rock. You are there for her through thick and thin but only if she is not abusive to you.

Enabler

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[Feeling Better]

When we connected again after her last cutting off period, she once shared with me that not having contact made her very suicidal (she did also say that it was the best thing she had ever done during a few rants). She mentioned once that she would not do that to me. What if she has done it even more to the extreme this time to free herself in her mind of an obligation to me as her mum (I have been so bad my mum is better off without me etc)? It is something that I have been churning over so much in my mind,

I get this, churning things over in your mind, it’s a constant worry, being fearful of what may or may not happen. Think back to the previous time when your daughter cut you off for two years. How did the reconnection come about? Is there anything that you can take from that time that can help you now in your current situation?

I'm very tearful all the time and can feel that downward spiral taking hold a bit more as the days go by. She was/is my world. There was only me and her, and it's all just gone so horribly wrong for her. I do feel that I have failed her completely and no matter how hard I tried over the last 29 years I have just succeeded in making  her life so difficult and hard and unhappy.

JeanGenie, you need a hug 
Boy, can I relate to that feeling of being a failure as a mother, it’s horrible, but the truth is, you did the best that you could. Did you intentionally want to hurt your girl, was it your intention to cause all this? Of course not, you love her and you fought for her when your mum was trying to withhold her from you. None of this is your fault, you didn’t ask to be sectioned and have your daughter taken away from you. You were ill and as soon as you recovered you got your daughter back, you did everything that a loving mother would do, please don’t feel bad about that time, you did your very best.

 

i know the key is acceptance, and I'm trying hard to work on that.

JeanGenie, you mentioned in an earlier post that you had accessed ACT treatment from the NHS, and that it really helped you, have you considered re-accessing it? Do you think that it would help you some more? x 

[JeanGenie]

Thank you so much for your replies.

You are right Enabler, I do blame myself a lot. I do try to have some sense of balance about it when I am feeling a bit stronger, but there really was only me about - so I was solely responsible. When I am not so strong, I feel that she deserved much better. But I promise I take on board what you have said, and educating myself  through this site may hopefully help me see a bit clearer.

Thank you and Once Removed for the clarification of the push/pull. It makes a lot of sense. Also, what you said Once Removed about practicing validation and that thinking in terms of not being invalidating is a very useful thing to keep in mind. Especially as validating the invalid could be a big risk.

FB - thank you for that hug and your kind words! I know what you are saying, and you are right - I wouldn't never have done anything intentionally to hurt my daughter, and I really need to try and work through all these guilt feelings. Also accepting that what is gone is gone, and I can't change the past would be a help.

After the last cut off period, the reconnection came about because I did periodically try to reach out to her via email. Sometimes I would get a lot of vitriol back, a lot of times I wouldn't get a response. Then I sent one after I didn't hear from her on Mother's Day again that went sort of 'no matter how much time goes by I will always be thinking of you and love you with all my heart, hope that you are safe'. She responded with an email pages long. Not as vitriolic this time, but a lot of stuff about my mum, the rest of the family etc, and how she felt about me having contact with them. I'm afraid that I apologised for practically everything. She did soften then (I felt that I must have 'got it just about right this time') and gradually we conversed more by email (I was very careful what I said all the time, I am afraid that I knew I was telling her what she wanted to hear I think, to keep her happy). I know now that this would have not helped her in the long run. Eventually she texted me and then asked to call me. When she moved again, she gave me her new address (big step forward - yay!).  It was good for a bit. She came to visit me and it went well. She was so full of life as she can be, full of her plans - how she was trying to address her eating etc. she seemed to have made some progress. That was last summer. She came here last Xmas (not for a meal obviously), with her partner (they had been on/off for years) and we had a nice visit. The first real rocky bit was her reaction to me sending  them a load of logs as a house 'warming' gift. She went crazy. Things just became tense after that and yet another Mother's Day without hearing from her. She was off with me then mostly until she decided to leave her partner and called me in distress. I realise now I did that big PULL that Enabler was describing. So nice to be of use and needed by her. I suppose I felt of some value to her. And that was the start of her coming back here - which pretty much lasted about 6 weeks.

So I am tempted to do the grovelling email thing again. But I think after what I have learnt so far from here, that doing that would not be helping her. I have a feeling things have got a lot more 'set' now in her head though. But I do not know how else to encourage her to reconnect. I have sent a quick 'I think of you all the time, I hope you are safe', but have refrained so far from a lengthy one. She is so stubborn/proud - it has always had to be me that does the reconnecting. Or I have always had to give her a way out of the holes she digs for herself. I think I have felt before that she didn't really mean to say 'those things', or she was 'upset' , so maybe underneath she regretted it/cut her nose off to spite her face etc.  But now I'm not so sure. I felt that she really mean all those things this time. I do not know how long true BPD traits take to manifest themselves fully, but this has escalated a lot now.

Anyone got any ideas of how best I can move forward with encouraging her to reconnect? Or is it best to just periodically send short 'thinking of you' emails until she is ready and she is the one who comes to me? I don't want her to do anything out of guilt or put any stress on her. I have read another recent post and there are similarities in that she has told me in the past that hearing from me completely upsets her day/could push her over the edge etc. I think we are back in FOG territory.

FB, I have thought about finding out whether they are still doing the ACT  groups. They were going to have a refresher after a year and call us back but I didn't hear anything. It may have been a casualty of one of the many cutbacks - but I will investigate after the New Year. In the meantime - if I could be bothered to get any Xmas decs out of the attic (not happening!), I could also look for the ACT workbook!

Thank you all again, I am so grateful to you and learning lots from you all  

[Enabler]

Morning JG,

Ultimately what you are dealing with is Silent Treatment. Yes there are a bunch of other things that are in the mix and plenty of other parts of the disorder in play, but at the moment the current situation is she is ignoring you. There are tons of different reasons why she could be doing this and they range from the desire to 'punish' you, shame of the things she may have said or done to you in the past, shame about her current position or the fact that contact with you is too painful (you might be invalidating for example). It's super tricky to work out why she is doing what she is doing, however, it was interesting that she was more responsive when things in her world were going kinda well e.g. moving into a new home with her partner. This must have been an exciting time for her, maybe a time where she thought she was getting her life in order. Personally I feel more inclined to connect with my Mum when I have positive things to say to her, I feel less inclined to contact her when life is chaotic... .it's embarrassing and I feel judged by my Mum.

My wife uses the tool of silent treatment with me, it's horrible and very discombobulating, I know she is angry with me but she refuses to tell me what she is angry about... .sometimes I just think she's wrapped up in her own world of hate, guilt, shame and opening the trap-door may just result in her losing her loose grip on sanity. It's painful but I have to accept it and any attempt to force her to communicate just results in conflict. One has to 'test the water' and check the temperature. It's pretty easy to find out what the temperature is and very apparent after the first response. Doing this over email appears to be what you've done in the past. I don't think the emails have to be long, or even have much in the way of detail in them. Make them up-beat, brief, some details about what's been going on and avoid any hot topics like talking about your FOO. Avoid suggestions like "Hope you are doing well" because maybe she isn't doing well, in favour of "Miss chatting to you, would love to hear how you're getting on, love you always."... .other board members chime in pls

Because I like to make sure that my advice to you is balanced and covers all angles... .here's the other side of the proverbial coin PLEASE READ TO THE END. I read a very good article not so long ago (I don't have it to hand but it was posted by another bpdfamily member) about a review of "estranged parent" forums. Parents complaining about the fact that their children no longer speak to them, don't give them access to granchildren etc etc. On closer inspection the other board members of these forums helped reinforce to the original complainant that their thought process and their behaviour was okay, and the estranged son/daughter was totally out of order. In some cases the estranged son/daughter had clearly stated why they were taking the action of estrangement and the board member had just ignored them. It was pretty evident that these parents had little or no sense of personal boundaries and as such was likely a reason why the son/daughter felt the need to 'cut them off'. The parents had little or no ability to self reflect on how their actions may have impacted their estranged son/daughter. I DO NOT see this kind of inability to self reflect in the things you have written, you have made no attempt to justify  or excuse the impact of even the things that were out of your control which YOU KNOW impacted your daughters childhood. HOWEVER, the subjective nature of BPD and how a sufferer may interpret information, historical facts and even body language may mean that your daughter see's herself as abused. Abuse is individual, what hurts for me, may not hurt for you and vice-versa. People perception is that if you hurt me you are abusive and if you are emotionally hurt by someone or something on a regular basis... .well that person must be abusive. The commonly taught (on these boards as well) tool for abusive people is... .you guessed it... .no contact (which looks very similar to silent treatment especially if you have an emotional disorder). I've often wondered whether or not this is playing out in my own life... .I am perceived as being abusive by my wife, her supporters are armchair psychologists (and professional) and maybe jump to the 'no contact' or 'low contact' approach as a solution. I can see a scenario where your daughter went 'no contact' with your FOO as a 'healthy choice' to what she perceived as abusive behaviour towards her when she was a child. Since you do not see your mothers behaviour in the same way as your daughter her 'healthy response' of NC has been widened to include you. The healthy response of no contact would be an attempt to avoid the drama of FOO whilst she made healthy choices to continue her life... .That is the balanced argument.

The approach is likely the same, check the temperature via un-intrusive methods such as emails. NO attempt to place any guilt on her for her choices or imply that she is hurting you in any way by her choice. Respect and empathise (as far as you can) with her choice to cut contact with your family and show a completely non-judgemental stance with regards to what is happening in her life. What she thinks about you may not be true... .but that's somewhat irrelevant when it comes to finding a solution here.

I hope I haven't fried your brain with my message and believe you can see hope through understanding. True empathy is challenging because it involves looking through a different lens on how things were and how things are, but it may be necessary to connect with her on another level.

Enabler 

[JeanGenie]

Thank you Enabler.

I think I can understand what you are saying, and thank you for providing the balanced view. A while ago I sort of figured out (too late) that my D could have seen my attempt at 'forgiving' my family as a betrayal to her from me.  I agreed with her about a lot of what she said, but I think from her point of view the fact that I chose to still have some contact (no matter how minimal), was very difficult for her. I was caught between a rock and a hard place, but regardless of that  I think she may have expected me to cut them off too in order to show her that I agreed with her, acknowledged her feelings and understood things from her point of view.

(I tried to do a quote here but it ended up with the whole of Enabler's post here after some bracketed text so I cut it all out! I can't seem to get the hang of the quotes!).

Enabler - what you said about abuse being subjective etc and how my D may perceive her hurt is something that I understand but need to fully absorb in this situation and come to terms with. My D was very well looked after (in the conventional sense) while she was in my family's care. I would never have had contact again with my family had there been any indication that they had actively abused her in any way. She was in a safe environment whilst she was with my mother. I do however, know that my D has very complex emotions about that whole period in time, and her pain is real to her. Cutting off from the family that had such an impact which in part helped to create this pain, I can see would have been good for her, and the right thing for her to do. At the time, however, i did not see that she wouldn't be able to accept my decision to maintain contact. I just wanted everyone to be happy, get on and move on. But I know now, that it isn't going to be like that ever.

At the end of the day, I just want her to have the best chance of moving towards being healthy and happy. I have distanced myself even more from my family now, but I think my D may never forgive me for what she perceives as a betrayal from me. i don't want to put any pressure on her, especially if it may hinder any chance of recovery - whether that be of her eating disorder, drug dependancy or managing an emotional disorder. If cutting off from me is right for her, at this time, I understand more about it thanks to what I have learnt here. I hope that if ever she gets to the stage where she may want contact again, that I am ready, knowledgable and strong enough not to mess it up.

[Feeling Better]

So I am tempted to do the grovelling email thing again. But I think after what I have learnt so far from here, that doing that would not be helping her.

You are right, grovelling to her would not be helping her and more importantly, it would not be helping you. I personally think that by grovelling you could lose her respect. My son was always big on respect and didn’t hesitate in telling me that he had no respect for me.

I think I have felt before that she didn't really mean to say 'those things', or she was 'upset' , so maybe underneath she regretted it/cut her nose off to spite her face etc.  But now I'm not so sure. I felt that she really mean all those things this time.

I have felt all these feelings too, just like you. In the moment, when words are spoken with such venom, it is hard to not believe that they mean what they say, and they probably do mean what they say... .in that moment. Or they could just believe it, full stop. For me, I have to believe that my son doesn’t mean all the hurtful things that he has said or done, that it is the disorder and not him.

Anyone got any ideas of how best I can move forward with encouraging her to reconnect?

I wish with all my heart that I could help you here. Reconnecting is something that I too am working on, periodically sending short emails, just to let him know that I love him and that I am here for him.
The reason that I asked you previously about how you and your daughter reconnected, was because I thought that there might be something that would click in your mind that had got through to her and worked before.

It is such a difficult place to be in JG, all we can do is learn and keep learning in the hope that our newfound knowledge will enable us to reconnect, whilst at the same time being mindful of the fact that when we do try, it might not necessarily be the right time for our loved one.

FB x

[Enabler]

My D was very well looked after (in the conventional sense) while she was in my family's care. I would never have had contact again with my family had there been any indication that they had actively abused her in any way. She was in a safe environment whilst she was with my mother. I do however, know that my D has very complex emotions about that whole period in time, and her pain is real to her.

One of the things to understand is that what your D may believe and what actually happened maybe 2 different things. The great saying of 'time is a great healer' isn't necessarily that true. The thing is that the emotional memory is not on a time continuum i.e. emotional experiences of the past are felt with exactly the same intensity as if they were yesterday... .this is one of the reasons why people suffer from PTSD or CPTSD... .a simple example of a soldier cowering in a corner when he hears something that sounds like a gunshot. Typical memories fade with time, they are compartmentalized, stored away in the depths of our recollection... .no so with traumatic emotional memories, these float around in the conscience memory like lost souls. The way I understand it is that these traumatic emotional memories can't be rationalised and therefore can't be compartmentalised. There's something called EMDR (Eye movement desensitization reprocessing), the therapist gets a patient to recall painful experiences, they discuss them whilst doing eye movements. Somehow and I don't know how or why, these eye movements coupled with recalling the painful experiences allow the memory to be housed in the depths where they belong... .so, how does this link to your daughter? She has painful memories of the past, she relives them regularly and may also see them for more than they were... .maybe because she cannot rationalise them. They are probably as painful today as they were then and she still has little in the way of explanation for it.

Things seem very black and white with your daughter... .she knows your FOO caused her this pain... .she can't rationalise why you would still want to connect with people who 'hurt' her. To put in a different context, and I don't know how she sees thing, but could it be like you are friends with a person who abducted her and held her hostage? The facts don't reflect this... .but facts don't really matter when it comes to her feelings about the experience.

Enabler

[JeanGenie]

Thank you so much again, for your insight and support.

I'm so sorry FB that you are in the same position, and my heart goes out to you and all those others out there that are also trying to come to terms with this type of estrangement. It is a mammoth task to try and understand it all.

Enabler - I have looked at the link you sent me previously  about memories, and it is a very complex area I can see. I have come to realise  that my D is holding a world of pain around that time in her childhood (understandably) - it is hard to accept that she feels the way she does about me because of it all, but I can relate to your analogy of her seeing me as perhaps befriending an abductor. I need to keep reminding myself that her thought processes are different from mine.

I am wondering that perhaps should I have recently cut the rest of my family out entirely from my life in order to try and salvage her trust in me? Or  would that have been a sort of 'validating the invalid'? I did distance myself from them more again, but it would have caused a lot of pain to others to have cut off after years of relatively amicable contact and I was so stuck as to what to do. In hindsight I should have put her needs first above all else perhaps? I think she would have only accepted me as 'being on her side' if I had cut them out completely. I dont think I realised the depth of her feelings at the time. It is ironic that when it all happened I only kept contact with them for her sake, and for me to have cut off from them at that time in order to more easily deal with my own pain (which is precisely what I felt like doing!) and help in my own recovery would have been seen as withholding her from people she loved at the time and therefore, potential abuse. I had to work very hard to be able to maintain the contact I have, and now that seems to have caused such a load more pain for my D. I feel a lot of frustration about that when I look at the long picture and where we are today. I don't think I could have done anything else at the time, and it has been only in recent years that all these feelings that she holds have manifest themselves to this extent. It is such a shame all round.

It will take me some time to try and come to terms with the thoughts I have around the mistakes I have made. These mistakes that have had such an impact on her. The 'trying to do the right thing', but apparently getting it all so wrong in her eyes. I was/am easily led by wanting to please others and not hurting others - this includes her, but also the family (she has told me that she sees this as a weakness in me). But you can't please all the people all the time. She should have been my priority though, I think she very much feels that. Even if I had done what she may have wanted me to, and completely cut off from family, I don't know how long that would have appeased her.

Thank you again for taking time to respond. I am so grateful for your input and all your knowledgeable advice.

JG x 

[once removed]

I am wondering that perhaps should I have recently cut the rest of my family out entirely from my life in order to try and salvage her trust in me?

setting aside whether it would be the right thing or not, people with BPD traits are inherently distrustful of others. its hard to say that doing so would achieve trust.

[Enabler]

Hey JG,

Like you say, you have spent a long period of your life, maybe all of your life being a people pleaser. Accepting that we can please some of the people some of the time but not all of the people all of the time may stop you from tying yourself in knots trying to achieve the impossible. Hindsight is a wonderful thing, and to my knowledge no one has invented a reliable crystal ball or time machine. All said, living in the knowledge that we did our best given the knowledge we had at the time, and our learnt experience of how to respond to that information... .the same can be said for your daughter. Very very few people intentionally do bad things, good people do bad things believing they are doing the right thing... .right to them at the time. Your decision to continue contact with your FOO was a conscious decision based on what you thought was the right thing for you to do at the time.

The question you should be asking yourself is not if maintaining connection with your FOO is the right thing to do given your daughters reaction, but is maintaining contact with your FOO a healthy relationship to maintain. Does the loss of contact with your FOO represent a greater long term bereavement than you might gain from not being hurt by their behaviors. Trying to appease the reactions of a disordered person is a road to nowhere. Her venom towards you because you maintain that relationship is irrational (given the information you have shared), do you think she will find another irrational reason with which to quench her need to hurt someone other than herself if she didn't have this stick to beat you with?

You are doing an amazing job keeping up with my ramblings. I hope I am helpful and hope I am making sense to you. Your D has a lot to be grateful for, spend some time reading these boards and you will soon see the depths of depravity some adults can stoop. Maybe take some time to be honest with yourself... .and sometimes that means patting yourself on the back for your achievements as well as your failures. IT'S NOT BAD TO BE PROUD OF OURSELVES... .despite what you may have been taught when you were younger.

Enabler xx