Mother with BPD

[Yorkie]

After a simpe questions asking my BPD mother for a favor, she flipped out at me making low blow hurtful comments about my ability to mother my children for “working too much” and then taking it further to insult my in laws and husband for planning vacations with me. After I let her know that I do not wish to be belitted or controlled she turned the “fight” into that I must drive to her house today (even though I have two little children and plans today) to resolve this with her. I was told I do not care about my family since im not willing to come to her home. I offered her to call or come to my house but she refuses. I feel like I cannot get her to understand that the comments she said hurt me and It isnt her right to tell me what I can and cannot do pertaining to my life. She has flipped the story so that she is the victim and I am an ungrateful not caring daughter

[Harri]

Hi Yorkie and welcome.  I am glad you are reaching out here.  We get it.

The conversation with your mother reminds me of many I had with mine.  It is hard because we want them to hear us, but the thing is, when they get dysregulated like that, they can't.  They can't really see or hear us and the harder we try the worse the problem becomes as they then feel invalidated and can often take it as further proof that we do not care.

Are you okay with leaving things as they are?   Leaving her to self soothe and not try to get her to see your point and how she is being hurtful?

[Yorkie]

Thank you for your reply! I am ok with allowing her to self soothe but that has not worked in the past. She usually keeps texting or reaching out or having my dad who is her co dependent reach out and tell me things like I dont care arout them or my family and its sad I could hurt them and. Or care rather than taking into account why I feel how I do based on things they have said

[Harri]

Hi again.  Okay, Good point.  Now my question is are you okay with letting this be and working on self soothing yourself?     I am not being facetious when I ask that.  Almost all of us struggle with not stepping in to fix, appease, or to keep explaining in an effort to get them to finally understand.  It almost never goes well.  Do you feel the urge to do any of the above?

[Yorkie]

Yes I feel guilty for not going there to speak or make any further effort to resolve based on her not acknowledging how I feel or any of my points so right now im sitting back trying to determine how to best proceed

[Harri]

   I get it.  It is hard to try to break the pattern of soothing them which in turn helps us feel better.  That plus my need to be heard and have my hurt and even just my perspective acknowledged is what kept me going back and trying to get them to listen. 

Nothing will change unless we change.  If we change what we do and how we respond, over time, we will get to a better place.  It is hard and uncomfortable to change our patterns of behaviors.  We have learned to respond since we were kids and so appealing to them, trying to soothe them and even how we soothe ourselves no longer work for us in terms of keeping us safe.  Now, as adults, rather than interacting with them to survive like we did when we were kids, we need to respond in ways that will allow us to be independent and okay with them being upset.  Recognizing that that is their stuff to deal with and we can not change them.

Trying to talk with them will not change anything, not in the long run anyway.  Short term it may work, but the same thing will keep happening again and again.  Learning to sit with our own discomfort is important.  It will pass over time.  It took a long time to develop these patterns and the emotional reactions we have are almost instinctual.  Remember that.  It is going to take feeling uncomfortable before we can get to a better place.

One thing that might help is to read tis article called Emotional Blackmail: Fear, Obligation and Guilt (FOG).

You might also want to read this on drama triangles.  I see this pattern in what you describe going on here.  Triangles happen quite naturally in all relationships, but the drama triangle is particularly common, and quite unhealthy.  Escaping Conflict and the Karpman Drama Triangle

Let me know what you think and if this all makes sense.   

[Yorkie]

I find the FOG article very helpful! Thank you so much for sending. I keep questioning how I am handling this because it is not like me to not try to resolve things but I think in the long run this will hopefully allow for a change

[Harri]

Glad you liked the article.  It is a favorite here.  The end part, where it says that FOG only works with our permission is important. 

As for doing something different this time around... .if what you have always done does not work or results in only a very short and temporary improvement, then we need to change things up.  Stick with it.  It is going to feel foreign and uncomfortable and your mom may increase her behaviors and so might your dad.  That is common.  Expect it and prepare for it.

How are you with setting boundaries?

[Yorkie]

I have recently been trying to set boundaries but it does not seem to work long term. Last time my mom blew up on me was because my in laws planned a vacation for my husband myself and our kids. My mom gets the most mad when I do things with my husband and especially when my in laws are involved always stating that we do everything with them and nothing with her even though I constantly try to make plans with her and the kids or even just her and I. That last fight we ended with me stating that if she brings up negative comments about my in laws or husband the conversation will end because I dont want to hear her always putting them down for now reason. This lasted maybe a few weeks before she started makinng small passive aggressive comments again and I just feel like I gave up because its so draining that she doesnt understand. Then this time around of course the fight turned into that I do too much with my in laws again. I simply stated that when things pertain to my decisions in life its not her call. And we are where we are now, im being told I dont respect my family and that I am entitled and that I am “not the victim here”.       My other question for you is at this point I feel like I want to speak with a therapist because I dont envision her changing soon while this board is helpful I feel like a therapist would also be. Can you guide me how to find someone in my area who may specialize in treating a family member of someone with BPD?

[Yorkie]

Now this morning since I havent responded to that last text I get a text stating “I know u dont want to talk to me but I sent u an email that theres a cute coat on sale on zulily”. Do I just respond and say thank you? I think shes now just looking for a reply?

[Yorkie]

I apologize for all the recent posts. Im just a little confused how to proceed because this is a new way of handeling my mother for me. So I replied thanks for the last text about the coat and she continued convi asking if I were going to order to which I replied no because I already own a similar coat to which she replied “yeah but its a good deal hahaha” I wrote “it is a good deal but yeah I dont need it” and she wrote “ok”. Now I am at work so I will not be conversing with her but usually I give her a phone call on my way home from work- do I call today and hope to have a productive conversation or do I not call? Just not sure of the best way to proceed?

[Harri]

That last fight we ended with me stating that if she brings up negative comments about my in laws or husband the conversation will end because I dont want to hear her always putting them down for now reason. This lasted maybe a few weeks before she started makinng small passive aggressive comments again and I just feel like I gave up because its so draining that she doesnt understand. Then this time around of course the fight turned into that I do too much with my in laws again. I simply stated that when things pertain to my decisions in life its not her call. And we are where we are now, im being told I dont respect my family and that I am entitled and that I am “not the victim here”. 

Okay, thank for this information.  Boundaries do work when we make them about us and we put the job of enforcing  and taking action to enforce them on us.  The first one, telling your mom you do not want to hear negative comments about your in-laws is fine.  The problem came in with your enforcement of it. 

Boundaries are what we do to protect ourselves and live our values, by defining our own behavior.  They are not about controlling others' behavior.  In fact, in doing that, we violate their boundaries.  So mastering boundaries means protecting ours and respecting others'.  Boundaries that rely only on our behavior are ones we can implement on our own.  They are much more successful with much less conflict than trying to control someone else.

Expecting a disordered, toxic person to behave in a way we want them to just sets us up for conflict and frustration.  In fact, if they detect that we are trying to control them, they may do the opposite of what they want, so they feel safe and in control.  If your personality disordered people are anything like mine, you know what I'm talking about!

So in the case of your mother making negative comments the conversation ending is a good thing.  Make it clear you will not listen to negative comments about them each and every time she does it.  She might get it for longer periods of time and she might not.  But that is the beauty of boundary based action on your part... .you can choose what to do or say.  Repeat yourself and try to continue a conversation.  Repeat yourself and change the conversation.  Repeat yourself and leave the room.  Repeat yourself and leave her house or tell her to leave yours. 

Here we talk about boundaries being part of and a reflection of our personal values.  So in this case your value may be "I will talk to and treat people with respect and I expect others to do the same when talking with me".  If they talk bad about someone, you set the boundary and you take action.

Because all of the things that you are doing are things you control, you'll likely feel less threatened and upset.  You can congratulate yourself that things went exactly as you planned.  Your parents will be mighty annoyed.  In fact, when boundaries first start being enforced, they will likely display a pattern of activity called an extinction burst, where they try mightily and noisily to get you back in line.  Calmly resist and stick to your boundary behaviors.  Consistency is key -- if you waiver, it will reward them for pushing against your boundaries.

make sense?

[Harri]

Now this morning since I havent responded to that last text I get a text stating “I know u dont want to talk to me but I sent u an email that theres a cute coat on sale on zulily”. Do I just respond and say thank you? I think shes now just looking for a reply?

I could go either way on this.  Respond with Yes, I got your email thank you but I don't need a coat.  You can set boundaries about how you want to handle phone calls and texts.  You can have a limit or gradually increase how long it takes to reply or whether you will accept them or not. 

The email may be her way of reaching out, it is hard to say.  She is who she is Yorkie.  You know her best.  Would responding give her a foot in the door to bust boundaries or abuse you?  What risk is there to you if you do respond?

[Yorkie]

Thank you for your reply. In response to setting boundaries what u said makes sense I just need to stay consistant. In terms of the text I replied which led to light convo. Followed by I called at my usual time of day to discuss the recent fight. She denied saying all of the hurtful comments made about me and my family and changed the story to how they were meant even though she was on speaker phone unknowingly and my husband heard loud and clear there was no denying how she meant the things she said. She demanded apologies for things that I never said- basically she twisted my words conpletely. I told her that im sorry she heard things that way but it was 100% not what was said and maybe her anger got in her way of actually hearing me. She said that was acceptable but that I need to accept that I also misheard her. I just agreed because she is In complete denial and im not really sure how to get her to comprehend otherwise. I did tho however let her know I will not tolerate her telling me how often im allowed to work, how often I vacation, what I do with my In laws, or say mean hurtful below the belt things to me. She claimed that shes allowed to tel me how to parent my children because she has a degree in early education and counseling (which is true she was an elementary school counselor, which is slightly scary to me seeing how she flies off the handle- however never in public or with people not close to her). I Informed her that if I ask her addvice with my children then fine if I dont then I do not want unnecessary advice unless she feels my kids are in danger whicch is obviously not the case. I know these boundaries and resolution is short term like it always is. I hope I did a good job of communicating what I wanted her to hear im just not sure that she actually will take it in and make the appropriate changes

[Harri]

I hope I did a good job of communicating what I wanted her to hear im just not sure that she actually will take it in and make the appropriate changes

Chances are she probably won't make permanent changes. 

That is okay though because boundaries put us in charge of our responses and give us choices about how to enforce our boundaries by changing our behaviors.

Boundaries are not about changing another persons behaviors.  They are about changing our own.

[Yorkie]

Understandable but do you think its typical behavior of a BPD to twist stories to how they want it portrayed? Is it more of she believes what she is saying or is her denial and changing of stories a tactic to manipulate things her way?

[Harri]

Changing the story, re-writing history can very much be a part of BPD behaviors.  It is hard to say for sure what is driving the behavior but in general, I believe pwBPD are not being deliberately manipulative. 

BPD is a disorder of emotional regulation.  When pwBPD are dysregulated they are frantically trying to push away emotions and will do it in different ways, including denial.  Sometimes I think they truly may not remember if they said something impulsively and in an emotionally dysregulated state.

We hear a lot of people talk about BPDs being purposely manipulative and most of the experts disagree with that.  Usually that sort of planned, purposeful manipulative behavior is related to something else (NPD or AsPD for example).  On the internet though, you will hear a lot of stuff that is not accurate.  You will also hear from people who like to generalize and apply what their pwBPD did or was like to everyone with the disorder.  Sometimes my mother was deliberately lying or cruel but not always and I don't think all moms with BPD do that.

Whew... .that got me off on a bit of a tangent there.  Sorry.  Just how my thoughts are flowing this evening.

[LottaO]

Hi Yorkie,

I know its been a while since you posted, so you may not get this but I just wanted to say how much I can relate to your situation. Down to the complaints against my husband, his family, and how I don't put my own family first. I came on this site to get some insight on these kinds of situations. It is so draining, especially when you have kids and you want family to get along if for no other reason but the children alone.  Thank you for posting, reading the threat has been helpful. It is incredibly hard to put up boundaries, its hard not to do what we can to appease the situation - however doing that with a new family (I just had a baby) is harder. I've been at points this past year where I just don't know if I can handle it if things get worse - and I know they can. But it is encouraging to hear I'm not alone, all families go through this, and everyone makes their own choices in life.