DD33 willing to do therapy with mother but not dad

[jones54]

My DD33 just emailed her mother and said she would consider doing therapy with her mother but not me. She has been estranged from both of us since early October. She does not want to do therapy with me because she feels I have "hurt" her too much and feels I "will never change". Her mother was the target years past but I have been the target for the past few years. While I am grateful she may take this first step to seek therapy, I am not sure how her mother should respond. Her mother and I are in close contact and try to be consistent with what we do. She will ask my opinion. I do know that a therapist said in the past that she needs to do individual therapy first before we would do family therapy.
Not sure how we (her mother) should respond.

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[Harri]

Hi jones.  I am sorry your daughter is treating you as she has been. 

What are you anticipating as problems if she does go to therapy with just her mom?  Do you see therapy with mom as potentially leading to individual therapy for your D?

[once removed]

what does her mother think?

[jones54]

Thanks for the questions. At this point her mother was going to refuse to do therapy with her unless I was included. I honestly do not think it would be a problem if her mother went alone. We both think she is doing this to control the situation. For some reason I have been the target for her anger the last couple years. Her mother and I feel she should do individual therapy first then include us.

[zachira]

I would go along with however your daughter wants to do therapy. The most important thing is that she is in therapy and getting help. As hard as it, try not to let the fact that your daughter is blaming you be too upsetting, as this is typical behavior of a person with drug addiction problems: It is always someone else's fault.

[Only Human]

Hi  jones54,

The fact you and your ex are working together is so cool. Being on the same page is critical when co-parenting after divorce.

I agree with zachira, the important thing is she's in therapy and getting help.

I would also suggest that your DD be the one to research therapists and make the appointments. This puts the responsibility of follow-through where it belongs, on your DD.

What do you think?

~ OH

[jones54]

Thanks Zachira and Only Human,
My ex and I talked it over. When we were in therapy last year together I had asked the therapist if my DD could come. She said not till she had some therapy on her own. I am not sure whether my DD said what she said simply to manipulate. I hope not. I do agree the most important thing is she gets into therapy. Her mother emailed her back and said she (as well as me) would be more than happy to have a better relationship with her but encouraged her to start on her own first. She received no response back so not sure how serious she was. I also agree that SHE should find the therapist. She has done this in the past on her own. If we do not get a response I may have my ex email her again to see if she was still willing to go with her (my ex does not like it when our DD chooses sides... .I am lucky she supports me). I guess the most important thing is she goes but giving in to her is exactly what she wants. It is all about control with her. Has been forever. We both suspect she was not serious since in the email my DD said she would not have me included since she feels that her Dad would always be the same and never change. I continue to be the target no matter what we are talking about.

[zachira]

Do you have any ideas about why you might be the target? Maybe you are the person whose approval is the most important to her. People with BPD tend to do what will get them the opposite of what they really want, because of their deep fears of abandonment.

[Harri]

Hi and thanks for the update. 

I too hope she follows through but you and your ex know her past behaviors.  I am sorry she is pushing you away the way she is.  You mentioned she likes to control.  Do you think she pushes you away because she can't control you or is it something else?

[jones54]

Hi Harri and Zachira,
I honestly do not know why I am the target and she pushes me away. Years ago we were extremely close. She hated her mother. After our divorce she remained close to me and even was close to my fiance who she now dislikes as well (maybe she thinks I chose my fiance over her?). I do know she repeatedly will say that I abandoned her years ago and would say things like when I sent her to rehab. I honestly did not want to send her but a therapist in addiction almost insisted on it. I have explained this to my DD. Her mother paid for her housing the past two years (inappropriately) but I paid her grad school tuition. I was the enabler before I stopped and my ex stepped in. Harri, she is a controller. But I guess so am I. I think it is a combo of both. If she gets too close to me, she fears I will leave her. Not sure. I am trying to not let her control my emotions but it is difficult. Hardest thing for me is that I want to contact her (only way is email since she got a new phone and did not give her number to us) but every time I have done that in the past she told me to leave her alone and stop contacting her (control?). Very hard with the holidays (she struggles with them and now so do I). I want to reach out and maybe I will but my therapist simply said leave her alone till she decides to come back. I guess maybe I would rather have her lash out at least knowing I made the effort to wish her  a Merry Christmas. Getting tired and frustrated with all of this.

[zachira]

I hear how sad, frustrated, and tired you feel about your daughter, especially at this time of year, when families are supposed to get together and enjoy each other. You cannot figure out your daughter's motives for doing what she does, because she really doesn't seem to have much self awareness, so if she doesn't understand why she is so self destructive, how can she possibly have reasons that make much sense about why she treats others the way she does. While reading your post, I feel admiration for how you have left no stone unturned in trying to help your daughter, including looking how you might have contributed to her problems. You are now left waiting and hoping. Know that we are thinking of you, and hoping that things will improve. Keep us posted as always.

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[once removed]

I do know she repeatedly will say that I abandoned her years ago and would say things like when I sent her to rehab. I honestly did not want to send her but a therapist in addiction almost insisted on it. I have explained this to my DD.

what did you say by way of explaining?

[jones54]

Thanks Zachira for your kind words and support. I am heading to see my son, daughter in law as well as my new grand daughter this weekend to celebrate Christmas. Looking forward to that.
Once Removed, when she said I abandoned her when I sent her to rehab I explained it was something that I did not want to do but was highly recommended by her addiction therapist. I reminded her about how I flew with her to Minneapolis. I explained it was one of the most difficult things for me to do and when I left her I broke down. Not sure if she understood when I said this. She seems to focus on anything to make me out to be a bad person. She keeps saying "you will never change".  I believe it probably is mostly related to recent events where her mother and I had to step back due to her on going heroin use. This was all carried out with the guidance of a therapist. So I feel she thinks we have abandoned her by doing this and now she brings up anything in the past to confirm in her mind I (we) abandoned her.
What bothers me more than anything, I feel she thinks I do not care about her and for some reason I cannot express to her how difficult this has all been for me. Not sure why I feel I cannot spill my feelings to her (although I am sure she would discount them and continue to say I treated her poorly).  I know when she was homeless living in a motel she would ask "why won't you help me?". I honestly did not know what to say so I said nothing. Maybe it was my fear she would ask for me to pay for her housing and that was a boundary that her mother and I would no longer do. I guess I was afraid to have to say no. 

[zachira]

Glad to hear you will be enjoying Christmas with your son and his family.
I sometimes wonder if you are the person your daughter wants approval from the most, so you get most of the blame when things go wrong. You have a wonderful son, so you do know how to be a good father. Sometimes we get a child that no matter we do, we cannot help them. Have a great Christmas. If you feel comfortable sharing, we would love to hear about how you enjoy your son, his wife, and granddaughter. Sometimes we have to focus on what is going right, to be able to step back and help those who are not doing so well, as it is your daughter's responsibility to make changes for the better.

[wendydarling]

Hi jones

It's a journey, I hope you don't feel disheartened as you, and your ex continue forwards.

when she said I abandoned her when I sent her to rehab I explained it was something that I did not want to do but was highly recommended by her addiction therapist. I reminded her about how I flew with her to Minneapolis. I explained it was one of the most difficult things for me to do and when I left her I broke down.  She seems to focus on anything to make me out to be a bad person. She keeps saying "you will never change".  I believe it probably is mostly related to recent events where her mother and I had to step back due to her on going heroin use. This was all carried out with the guidance of a therapist. So I feel she thinks we have abandoned her by doing this and now she brings up anything in the past to confirm in her mind I (we) abandoned her.

It helps to not JADE, justify, argue, defend, explain, are you familiar with this?

WDx

[once removed]

So I feel she thinks we have abandoned her by doing this and now she brings up anything in the past to confirm in her mind I (we) abandoned her.

people with BPD traits are inherently distrustful of others... .family, friends, loved ones, acquaintances. what might be hard, but ultimately understandable to you or me may feel like catastrophic betrayal to someone with BPD traits.

if you think about it, thats very hard to overcome. she has to trust to do so, when trust is the issue. for her, it would feel like literally sticking her neck and heart on the line.

I feel she thinks I do not care about her and for some reason I cannot express to her how difficult this has all been for me

by explaining to her why you did it, you are probably trying to communicate some regret, or at least get her to understand your perspective, the "why".

its likely she hears it as justification, and feels that its more about you and not her.

shes lashing out a lot which indicates three things: she has a lot of hurt and resentment, she wants that to be acknowledged, she wants to be heard.

trust can be (re)built. it will likely require a great deal of listening (https://bpdfamily.com/content/listen-with-empathy), over time, multiple times, putting yourself in her shoes, understanding not only how she sees things, but why. asking validating questions in order to demonstrate you hear her, acknowledge her feelings, and want to better understand her perspective... .putting aside, for a time, your explanation or perspective, which is challenging for all of us.

what do you think?

[Harri]

Hi jones54.

I just read that you are seeing your son, DIL and *new grand daughter*.  Congratulations!  

I think wendydarling and once removed have made some excellent comments about how your daughter may be interpreting your words to her.  It is so hard when we try to express ourselves and show love only to find that the words do not penetrate, or even worse, push them away.  

Did you have a chance to look at the links they gave before taking off for the holiday?  If not, you can do it when you get home and then we can talk more about them.  I think you will find them quite helpful.

[Hyacinth Bucket]

Hi Jones,

I'm late to the game bit since you and I recently discussed this very topic regarding my own DD - my Ph.D. psychologist said  (or rather this is what I heard her say so I might be wrong) the standard  is for addicts to have been in treatment for a long and consistent amount of time before they would consider doing family therapy.  Hence why your therapist said no to your original request.  I doubt she has looked into it at all with an actual professional even if she is serious, it's just an idea.    

[jones54]

Thanks so much for everyone’s comments. They are extremely helpful. You all are absolutely correct in that my responses ( explanations ) have been more to defend my position rather than acknowledge her perspective even if I feel it is totally wrong. It has always been my nature to defend my perspective and I need to know that does not work well with the BPD. That may be why she states I will never change.  I also need to understand the difference between true validation of her feelings and not looking at to not validate the invalid. As much as I want her to  understand the truth it makes no difference if her feelings and perspective are true to her even though they are not to me. This has been very hard for me since she has belittled me for so long and in so many ways.
I suspect that for so long she feels like I do not understand her.  It has been hard because both her mother and my fiancée say how totally wrong she is with what she says. Trying to agree with someone who is totally wrong is difficult. Again I guess I just need to agree with her feelings and worry about the facts later. I am not sure at this point she would even listen to me if I wrote her to validate her feelings. She wants nothing to do with me. Maybe she wants my approval more than others. I guess I need to look at the small things since there has not been much for me to approve of with all she has done in the past. I have for so long wanted to express my feelings to her but that would be about me and not her. Any time I have done this in the past it has fallen on deaf ears. She has never acknowledged what I have said and the best response I would get would be a neutral response and not a negative one.
As far as not doing family therapy until she seeks therapy on her own, I am not sure it makes a difference since we do not think she is even serious about getting any therapy. One of the many things we cannot control.
My one question now is would it be worth reaching out to her to try to validate her feelings in regard to what she recently has said? Or should I just step back and leave her alone. Not sure it would make a difference at this point but as always I am willing to do anything if it would help.

[Harri]

Hi again!

As much as I want her to  understand the truth it makes no difference if her feelings and perspective are true to her even though they are not to me. This has been very hard for me since she has belittled me for so long and in so many ways.

I think these two things, 1. that her reality and perceptions are different but valid to her and 2. working though all the bottled up hurt and or resentment are the very hardest things to get through.

Validating feelings can be easy once you get the hang of it.  The hard part for me is ignoring the factual errors and the rewriting of history that happens so often.  It takes time and practice.  One thing I do know is that it took a long time for your relationship with her to get to the point it is now and it will take more time to get things back on better terms.  It will require a lot of patience too, something I am not very good with, at least not for this stuff.  It hurts immensely and I am saying that as someone whose pwBPD is not my own child. 

My one question now is would it be worth reaching out to her to try to validate her feelings in regard to what she recently has said? Or should I just step back and leave her alone. Not sure it would make a difference at this point but as always I am willing to do anything if it would help.

What would you say?  Write it out here and we can all share input.  I know some members do periodically reach out so lets see what they say.

I can see how much you love and care about your daughter Jones.  I hope you can get some peace and resolution with all of this.   

[Feeling Better]

Hi Jones

I get totally what you are saying and I feel your pain.

What bothers me more than anything, I feel she thinks I do not care about her and for some reason I cannot express to her how difficult this has all been for me. Not sure why I feel I cannot spill my feelings to her (although I am sure she would discount them and continue to say I treated her poorly).  I know when she was homeless living in a motel she would ask "why won't you help me?". I honestly did not know what to say so I said nothing. Maybe it was my fear she would ask for me to pay for her housing and that was a boundary that her mother and I would no longer do. I guess I was afraid to have to say no. 

I’m not sure if expressing your feelings to her would help in any way. If she is anything like my son, once he was locked into black and white thinking nothing would shift him so when he’d got it in his head that I didn’t love him it didn’t matter what I did to try to prove otherwise. I can relate to the fear that you write about, I too was frozen into silence many times, too scared to say anything. I see now, after being here, had I known about validation back then things might have been different today. But then again, that is just speculation on my part.

once removed writes about trust, sadly once the trust is broken it is so difficult to rebuild, and especially so if there is no communication.

I wish I had answers for you, I really do. I think you have to work out what feels right for you. My son told me to leave him alone, so I did just that, gave him some space and some time. When I contacted him again I asked him to let me know if he was ok. “I’m ok” was the reply I got. I reach out to him periodically, I no longer ask him if he is ok because at that time I couldn’t handle his abrupt reply. The advice I have consistently read and been given is to keep letting him know that I love him and I am here for him. I recently let him know that I have sought help for myself and that I continue to work on myself. It’s a long, hard slog and many times I have thought of just letting him go, but then that’s not the person that I am, he’s my son and I will do whatever I can to try and regain his trust.

I’m sorry if I’ve rambled on a bit and I don’t know whether anything that I have written will help you at all. I just wanted to let you know that you are not going through this alone 

FB x

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[jones54]

Hi Harri and feeling better,
Thanks for your input. I decided I am going to respond and try to validate her feelings without saying she is correct in what happened.
I thought something along the lines of... .I see that all of this bothers you since you have said it many times to me. The feeling of abandonment would be difficult for anyone. What happened in the past was never done in anyway to hurt you.
  I guess something along those lines. Any input or advice would be appreciated.

[Only Human]

Hello,

I also struggle with the right words and having family here to help is a great comfort for me.

I've highlighted the text below because, if I said this to my DD, she might take it as, "you're a broken record,"   (but not funny) It may be better to leave this out or think of another way to express that you've heard her, you understand that she's feeling something.

I see that all of this bothers you since you have said it many times to me. The feeling of abandonment would be difficult for anyone. What happened in the past was never done in anyway to hurt you.

My one question now is would it be worth reaching out to her to try to validate her feelings in regard to what she recently has said?

Sorry if I've missed it, what has she recently said? Is this it?:

she feels that her Dad would always be the same and never change.

~ OH