Moving Forward and Healing?

[Depression = 72% of members]

So, what steps does one need to take to move forward in developing good life skills? I've spent over 30 years being (what I feel is) brainwashed by a BPDm and would like to know what do I do now? I cannot afford therapy right. I have moved out and far away with LC with her. I feel like I'm afraid of developing relationships with anyone and it would be safer for others if I don't interact with them because I don't really know what I'm like outside of dealing with her (which I know I had a lot of bad coping habits due to trying to maintain peace in the whole family). I had gone into avoidance mode my last year and a half of living with my BPDm.

I guess what I'm really asking is how do you know you are safe with others? How do you interact and have a voice (because I feel I've never really had one due to my BPDm's control and constant talking for me and over me)? How do you interact with others without over-reacting or avoiding conflict? For instance, my class started a full on argument with each other and I interrupted it to ask the teacher a question on a different subject because the intensity started to freak me out. I'm worried I'll always prefer my own company and only interact with other people when I have to (i.e. school or work situations) and I won't develop good friendships. I really only have one friend whom I'm comfortable enough with talking to and mostly because she is blunt and honest with me.

I feel like I'm only ever "polite" in public and this lends to most people leaving me alone. I also have days where I don't want to do anything and everything is overwhelming. I would love some suggestions for having a good personal response to myself. I know I'm not good at just being and I do better being out and trying new things, even if that means going to Starbucks and forcing myself to write (I'm trying to finish some pre-work for my thesis). How do you go from being constantly afraid of every interaction with someone to being comfortable communicating with other people and trying to be friends?

Thank you for your advice.

[guineap]

So, what steps does one need to take to move forward in developing good life skills? I've spent over 30 years being (what I feel is) brainwashed by a BPDm and would like to know what do I do now? I cannot afford therapy right. I have moved out and far away with LC with her. I feel like I'm afraid of developing relationships with anyone and it would be safer for others if I don't interact with them because I don't really know what I'm like outside of dealing with her (which I know I had a lot of bad coping habits due to trying to maintain peace in the whole family). I had gone into avoidance mode my last year and a half of living with my BPDm.

I guess what I'm really asking is how do you know you are safe with others? How do you interact and have a voice (because I feel I've never really had one due to my BPDm's control and constant talking for me and over me)? How do you interact with others without over-reacting or avoiding conflict? For instance, my class started a full on argument with each other and I interrupted it to ask the teacher a question on a different subject because the intensity started to freak me out. I'm worried I'll always prefer my own company and only interact with other people when I have to (i.e. school or work situations) and I won't develop good friendships. I really only have one friend whom I'm comfortable enough with talking to and mostly because she is blunt and honest with me.

I feel like I'm only ever "polite" in public and this lends to most people leaving me alone. I also have days where I don't want to do anything and everything is overwhelming. I would love some suggestions for having a good personal response to myself. I know I'm not good at just being and I do better being out and trying new things, even if that means going to Starbucks and forcing myself to write (I'm trying to finish some pre-work for my thesis). How do you go from being constantly afraid of every interaction with someone to being comfortable communicating with other people and trying to be friends?

Thank you for your advice.

[Turkish]

What feelings arise which result in you not trusting people? What is your fear given everyday interactions?

[Kwamina]

Hi guineap

Maybe we can help you find ways to cope with your fears  With a talking wolf and parrot in your thread, there's sure to be some magic happening

In what ways do you feel brainwashed by your BPD mother? What do you consider the unhealthy things you've learned that you now would like to unlearn or at least better manage?

Why do you currently feel like you aren't safe with others? Do you feel like you are a threat to their safety or perhaps that they threaten your safety? (or perhaps a mixture of both)

How do you go from being constantly afraid of every interaction with someone to being comfortable communicating with other people and trying to be friends?

What is your biggest fear when thinking about interacting with other people? Can you identify the exact thoughts going through your mind, what do you tell yourself?

The Board Parrot

[itsmeSnap]

There are a few things you're trying to address, lets see them one at a time shall we:

I'm afraid of developing relationships with anyone and it would be safer for others if I don't interact with them

I myself have problems trusting others close to me, made a whole thread about. Interestingly enough when it comes to dealing with people "professionally" I have no problems with its.

One point that sticks out in your description is "it would be safer for others". It might be because of your BPDm, do you feel like you have to defer to "their" safety instead of yours?

This "protecting others" is something out of your control, they will protect themselves better than anyone else could anyway  as long as you're not entering the relationship with malicious intent then you are probably safe engaging them; of course not everyone is compatible with each other, keep that in mind when a newly forming relationship "doesn't seem to be working".

I don't really know what I'm like outside of dealing with her

This will take some soul searching of your own to figure that out. If you feel like a blank slate, it might be a good opportunity to redefine yourself: Who would you like to be?

I had gone into avoidance mode my last year and a half

You have reached out for support, that is a very important first step. Be proud! 

I guess what I'm really asking is how do you know you are safe with others?

Tough question, it seems like you have to figure it out on a "per relationship basis".

There is no general answer here, coming from a background of repeated breaches of trust and looking for answers to this myself and based on what many other have recommended me I can tell you: you will have to take the risk

Don't plunge into it if you don't feel comfortable, take it a little at a time.

I'm worried I'll always prefer my own company and only interact with other people when I have to (i.e. school or work situations) and I won't develop good friendships. I really only have one friend whom I'm comfortable enough with talking to and mostly because she is blunt and honest with me.

Not all friendships have to be "good friendships", its a continuous from acquaintance to casual friend to regular friend to good friend to close friend to best friend. its ok if some friendships don't develop further, it doesn't have to mean that it failed because of that.

I know I'm not good at just being and I do better being out and trying new things

Well there you go, try doing more of that   

How do you go from being constantly afraid of every interaction with someone to being comfortable communicating with other people and trying to be friends?

Stop caring about the outcome.

I know right, let me explain.

I used to have serious anxiety (I tell this story a lot haha), I would sometimes end up in the ER thinking my heart was going to explode. I got checked by doctors every time and there was nothing wrong with me.

I learned about anxiety and panic attacks. At some point when I had a really bad episode I just realized something: "You know what, its ok, whatever happens I'm ok with it, my heart can explode for all I care, I won't go on like this, this will not stop me"

It didn't go away overnight, but whenever the panic and anxiety started creeping in I was ready, I knew what this was, I could let myself feel it instead of making it worse knowing it would go away. It worked.

That simple realization that "whatever happens is ok" also made me realize that I was living the worse case scenario: it was all "improvement" from there.

In your case, being "just polite" doesn't allow for the relationship you want. Think of it this way: right now the "not working" is given, if you try something else and "it doesn't work" then nothing changed, if it does work then congratulations! improvement achieved.

makes sense?

So there's that, at the very least something to think about.
Good luck!

[Harri]

Hi guineap!

Forgive me please but I *have* to say this.  I can relate very well to what you say here about anxiety, friends, withdrawing, etc.  Especially the part about wanting to stay away from others to protect them.   I have gotten a lot better but used to believe I was wrong, evil, not fit to be around people because I always managed to somehow mess them up.  Sure, I messed up some but not enough for me to have a warning label that said "not fit for human consumption"  .  It has been a long road to get better with that.  I did a lot of digging here and Turkish and Kwamina were two of the people who helped me walk through the hell... .with me kind of kicking and screaming all the way.   In spite of the kicking and screaming, I really was determined to get better and heal (still am).  A few other people here helped me as well.  I wasn't able to go to therapy for a long time and the work I did here was healing, and challenging and helped me in ways formal therapy (once I started) really couldn't. 

So anyway, I just wanted to let you know I can relate.  I can't say it is the exact same as you experience but I think it sounds close enough.

Snap said: 

I learned about anxiety and panic attacks. At some point when I had a really bad episode I just realized something: "You know what, its ok, whatever happens I'm ok with it, my heart can explode for all I care, I won't go on like this, this will not stop me"

I have anxiety and panic attacks.  I used to dissociate quite a bit and never realized how anxious I was until I stopped  dissociating almost all day (no exaggeration there).  Anyway, my T would tell me just what Snap said:  You will survive.  It feels horrible but you will not die.  Do not feed the fear or the anxiety.  Just tell yourself this will pass and keep doing what you have to do.

Hahaha, there I was sitting in my T's office having one of the worst panic attacks ever, drenched in sweat, clutching a waste basket in case I got sick, shaking like crazy and I think I even whimpered... .and my T was basically telling me to suck it up.  haha 

I also have social anxiety, still pretty bad, and prefer to be alone.  My T has encouraged me to take small steps.  For me, it is just getting out, but you are ahead of me there.  Maybe ask someone in class to join you for coffee?  Something simple, still within a structure you are familiar with (school) and you can limit the time?

Small steps.   

[guineap]

Thank you for the replies. It does really help to talk to people I don't have to "explain" or "downplay" things to because they have no conception or ability to understand. I do feel that explaining things that happened out loud, even just to myself doesn't really give the full comprehension of what went on in my relationships for most of my life. I'm sorry I haven't responded sooner. My master class started back up and I am trying to finish my thesis proposal.

My professor and a classmate (who doesn't know about any of it) actually described me almost to a T (my class is on directing and acting and basically giving a backstory for characters). The nicest thing that someone has said to me recently is that no one here at school knows the old me, so I can decide who I want to be and really craft that person. This is both freeing and exceptionally hard. Freeing in that I don't have to be the girl my parents say I have to be and hard because I am still dealing with the drama without anyone here knowing about it.

I feel brainwashed in areas relating mostly to how families are supposed to be the main focus of everyone's individual life and that you have to do things for other people. I feel like my sensors on how to tell the difference in people that could be good relationships versus people that are toxic for me.

I've tried asking people to hang out. Some of the problems is that my classmates were a group before I got here and they are all wealthy class (I'm just above poverty level and have been my whole life), about 10 years younger than me, and (I'm going to explain this badly) world/culture experienced while I'm responsible (been working since I was 16) and basically already raised a family and was a surrogate spouse to both parents. I feel like I've gone through a divorce and empty-nest syndrome and that makes it hard to relate to 20-somethings who are talking about having kids. I've only ever been in relationships with family (1 date in my life) and find it hard to empathize with people who've gone through multiple relationships or have found a life partner that is better suited for them than a parent. Also, I'm finding out that I'm a "keep moving forward and constantly busy" person while everyone else has a better work/life balance. I have very different values and beliefs than anyone in the group as well and I don't believe in forcing my values on others, but it is hard not to tell people off when they are noticeably different from me on occasion.

I pulled out my "happy light" and that helps some days, but I still find people exhausting and hard to relate to. In regards to safety, a friend once said that if I ever got angry, everyone else should hide. I agree that I don't feel safe talking to most people about in-depth things, in part because of my mom and also because I am not good with confrontation. The T I was seeing said I was a "peacemaker." I know that I have to work out what lies I was told about my personality from both parents and what I really am. I've been told my whole life that I am "bossy, controlling, too intense, and too rough," among other things. I've worked really hard (basically if someone tells me something I am or do that is a "negative" thing I try to curb the thing) to be super nice and flexible and allow others to "team work" input with me. The problem is that I don't ever feel like I can have an honest conversation about my own beliefs because I'm working so hard to be nice. I know that I can argue with people, but this always leaves me feeling awful and I fear that it scares people from wanting to be around me. I don't feel (outside my siblings) like I can have a constructive discussion from opposing viewpoints.

I just think that I hoped trying to get out of the really toxic relationship of dealing with my BPDm daily (it is still an issue I have to figure out eventually) I would be more able to focus on actually having relationships with other people and not being so alone all the time. I am finding that I may have to adjust to being a loner for life, which some days is really great and other days is hard to swallow. I know that a lot of the people around me don't mean to exclude me, but it still happens.  I think I was so used to attention, albeit negative attention, from my parents and having to be the parent to my siblings that not having any attention at all is really challenging. And I feel like I don't know how to be a good friend or interact in healthy ways with other people. It is a daily issue, where I think I'm doing ok and then a comment from someone says that I really didn't and that (while knowing that it is a learning process) still is hard to swallow.

I think what I would really like to know is does the feeling of being a loner get better or worse with time after trying to change the dynamics of living in such dysfunction for so long? I've been reading up on FOG and realize that at some point (when I don't have a huge homework list), I really probably need to try to come up with a list of boundaries or things that my BPDm needs to know and tell her. Does anyone have any suggestions? I've honestly been too busy between class, homework and desperately trying to find a job to really be able to give this some dedicated thought.

As always, thank you for listening and letting me try to unload here. Otherwise, I fear I might explode someday and I really don't feel that is fair to other people around me.

[Kwamina]

Hi again guineap

My master class started back up and I am trying to finish my thesis proposal.

Very exciting! Good luck

My professor and a classmate (who doesn't know about any of it) actually described me almost to a T (my class is on directing and acting and basically giving a backstory for characters).

How did it make you feel to hear them describe you this way?

Also, I'm finding out that I'm a "keep moving forward and constantly busy" person while everyone else has a better work/life balance.

What do you think would happen if you were too slow down, even just for a moment an stop whatever it is you're doing? How does the thought of slowing down and 'just being' make you feel?

I have very different values and beliefs than anyone in the group as well and I don't believe in forcing my values on others, but it is hard not to tell people off when they are noticeably different from me on occasion.

What do you consider the biggest differences in values and beliefs between you and others in the group?

I know that I have to work out what lies I was told about my personality from both parents and what I really am. I've been told my whole life that I am "bossy, controlling, too intense, and too rough," among other things.

Many of our members (including me) have struggled with an inner critic, our disordered parents' negative critical voice which we internalized. Cognitive behavior techniques can be helpful to deal with an internalized negative voice.

On this board we often quote Pete Walker who specializes in complex PTSD as a result of trauma people endured during childhood. He discusses so-called emotional flashbacks and also the inner critic. It might be helpful for you to take a look at his list of 14 common inner critic attacks:

Shrinking the Inner Critic in Complex PTSD

Two of the things he says are:

"My perfectionism arose as an attempt to gain safety and support in my dangerous family. Perfection is a self-persecutory myth. I do not have to be perfect to be safe or loved in the present. I am letting go of relationships that require perfection. I have a right to make mistakes. Mistakes do not make me a mistake. Every mistake or mishap is an opportunity to practice loving myself in the places I have never been loved. "

"Feeling guilty does not mean I am guilty. I refuse to make my decisions and choices from guilt; sometimes I need to feel the guilt and do it anyway. In the inevitable instance when I inadvertently hurt someone, I will apologize, make amends, and let go of my guilt. I will not apologize over and over. I am no longer a victim. I will not accept unfair blame. Guilt is sometimes camouflaged fear. – “I am afraid, but I am not guilty or in danger”."

The Board Parrot
 

[guineap]

How did it make you feel to hear them describe you this way?

I was a little shocked because it wasn't a direct reference to myself, but a character they both cast me to play. I think the shocking bit was that they way they described the character was how I feel on a daily basis and I didn't realize that people outside of the board or my family could perceive that. It also hit home that I am not really ok and moving forward and that I'll be dealing with the issues and trauma for a while. I feel like

What do you think would happen if you were too slow down, even just for a moment an stop whatever it is you're doing? How does the thought of slowing down and 'just being' make you feel?

I'm not sure I can right now because homework and thesis is a huge task. But, I worry that if I do stop, I won't be able to deal with all the issues. My brain is constantly going and if I have nothing to focus on, I worry that I'll sink into depression from everything that's happened with my BPDm and my life. I don't know how to cope with this. Any suggestions? I want to stop, but I'm not sure I know how. I sort of feel like I need a support system or accountability group for this, but I don't really have anyone at the moment. Thoughts?

What do you consider the biggest differences in values and beliefs between you and others in the group?

I'm a devout, Independent Protestant in a group of violently-non-religious Democrats. Also, the current cultural climate is that is that "we don't judge unless you say you are wrong." I try to like everyone, but I disagree with some of their personal behavioral choices. I try to listen and ask questions and say "hey, I don't agree, but I'm not going to get in your face about my disagreement," while they are in your face if you have different political beliefs or don't agree with some current cultural trends. In this respect, they remind me of my BPDm who was adamant that her way was the only way and my actions of listening and respectfully saying that we could still be friends even if we disagree were not "holding to my morals and duty." Just because I don't agree with what someone is doing doesn't mean that I will treat you like you awful. People mess up. I mess up. I figure that I will be wrong about things. I feel like most people aren't open to honest discussion about differences. I don't openly shove my opinions at people, only offering if they ask or I've seen them be open to a honest discussion. Is this wrong?

Thank you for the notes from Pete Walker. I'm trying to work out what my FOGs are. I am also trying to figure out what I'd really like to tell my BPDm in writing. She hasn't contacted me directly since around Christmas, so I've not had any immediate confrontation to deal with, but I know that I need to have something in place for the next time. A lot of it is doing too many "what ifs" in my head. I am not even really sure what I want from a relationship with her at this point. Suggestions? She is still using guilt and obligation in her text messages (to most of the siblings and this list changes every time on who she messages). She uses a lot of statements and then gets upset when she doesn't get a response. I honestly feel like playing dumb and saying that "I must have missed the question." I am not sure that this is a good response though. Thoughts?

Thank you again.

[Harri]

Hi guineap.

I don't think you are wrong with your approach to talking with friends about things.  Your way sounds quite balanced to me, though i am not exactly good at this sort of thing.  I think a lot of things get polarized these days and it makes it very difficult especially when the people preaching tolerance are intolerant and it seems both sides can be that way.  Before I isolated myself so much, what I learned to do is just nod and say "I understand" which was true and worked quite well for the most part.  If I would would sometimes say more depending on my read of the people or the situation but saying I understood got me through quite a bit and I could still have a good conversation.  I learned to be less black and white in my thinking and to allow others to have their own opinions.  Granted, some were not able to give me the same courtesy and that is where I learned the difference between friends and acquaintances.  Or who i could talk with about certain subjects.  It took a while to sort things out though.  It sounds like you have all that down though?

Why not work out what you want to write to your mom here?  We can work on the 'what ifs' with you. 

She is still using guilt and obligation in her text messages

She can use these things but that does not mean you have to respond or react to them.  FOG only works with our consent so i think trying to work out which are the big ones for you is a good idea.  Come up with ways of responding, even if you only respond in your head.  That can help break the patterns.

[itsmeSnap]

I would really like to know is does the feeling of being a loner get better or worse with time

Calling it "being a loner" tells me you probably don't really want to do it, which makes me want to go on a limb and say it probably won't get better for you.

Don't get me wrong, people who don't care to be around others often call themselves "free spirits", "citizens of the world", "wandering souls" or something poetic to romanticize their own choice of limited contact with others. You can always take that path if you feel like it, just make sure you really want it. Also, it doesn't have to be forever, take a "spiritual retreat" if you feel like it.

I want to stop, but I'm not sure I know how.

Like taking a vacation: save up, pack your luggage, schedule for away time at work/school, tell the neighbor to water your plants and take off to a nice place.

Then actually stop. Like, literally: leave the phone at the hotel room, enjoy the view, enjoy yourself. Then, after you're ready and refreshed, pick back up where you left off with renewed energy and a new perspective on life.

The world will most likely not fall apart while you're away, and if it does then at least you're recharged enough to build it back up again right? 

I sort of feel like I need a support system or accountability group for this, but I don't really have anyone at the moment. Thoughts?

I hereby, irrevocably and effective immediately, grant you permission to take time for yourself. Tell us how it went.

Seriously.

We sometimes just need to be told its ok. I know I used to ask for permission for doing things for me which I really needed, basic things, and yet I would deny myself for the sake of others. Don't.

Take care