Struggling with enormous guilt surrounding issues with BPD mother

[Guilty_Daughter]

Hi,
I am new to this support group but, at 35 years old, this is a very old problem for me.  I'll try to be succinct while giving the necessary information to get the advice I am seeking.  My mother is diagnosed BPD, and looms very large in my life (although we do not live in the same town anymore).  She is hard to describe:  extremely smart intellectually, but no emotional iq -- and very difficult, mean, jealous, and judgmental.  At the same time, she can act very loving to me, and sometimes she does things that are quite kind.   In a way, this makes it all the more difficult because when she is being nice, I feel overwhelming guilt about my dislike for her and the way I talk about her to others.  Despite my mother's serious mental illness, which cast a dark shadow over my childhood, I have somehow turned out pretty well -- I don't struggle with any significant mental health issues, and those around me consider me happy, well-adjusted, and normal.  I attribute this to the fact I had a normal father (by all accounts my mother tricked him into pregnancy early on and he was too good to leave) who passed away recently.  I have thereby lost a significant source of support in this region-- he used to help me deal with issues relating to my mom all the time.

 I have been dating my boyfriend for about a year and a half, and for the first time brought him home for the holidays.  She behaved as I expected and feared:  made many subtle and less subtle but nasty remarks, expressed a lot of judgment and superiority, showed she does not understand other people in the slightest, cried and made a scene when her pie didn't work out, etc.  It's hard to describe, but I know most on here understand what I am talking about.  My boyfriend (who is wonderful, and very empathetic about the situation) made it clear he does not want to visit anytime in the near future again, he wants limited contact with her, and if we are to move forward in our relationship as we both want I must find a way to move her more towards the sidelines.   He has voiced concern over her playing any role in our lives if we have children. Limiting my mother's role in my life is something I have long struggled with, but it's very hard to maintain boundaries with her, and I usually just lose because I feel too guilty about hurting her feelings, so I am willing to tolerate the misery of her company.  But now the stakes are higher, as this relationship is incredibly important to me.   I simply don't know how to balance the guilt I feel over trying to distance myself from her with the fact I feel that is the only rational and necessary choice, both for my personal mental health and the health of the relationship.   I also don't know what to do when she asks -- as she surely, surely will -- why he never visits, why she can't come visit for the weekend, etc. If anyone has any thoughts, advice, etc. I would be most appreciative.

[Notwendy]

Hi Guilty_daughter-

You are in a difficult position. I don't have a solution but perhaps defining the issues will help. In my situation, it was my decision to have boundaries with my BPD mother. In yours, it is your boyfriend urging you to have these boundaries. This is difficult as it is not coming from you. You may agree with him, but it is you who is part of your family dynamic and you need to have the skills and willingness to do it. Your BF is not part of your original dynamic - he may see the issues,  but the solution has to come within you.

I can understand how your boyfriend would be uncomfortable with your mother and not want to spend time with her, and also not have her involved with children. However, unless you cut complete contact with her, she is likely to have some involvement in your family. I think it is important for you and your boyfriend to explore this further and be clear about how the two of you would handle this.

I can also understand your boyfriend's concern about being involved with someone who may not have strong boundaries with their BPD mother. Yet, this takes some work on your part. It isn't as simple as choosing him and going along with it for you. The next question is about you- how do you feel about his request? Do you feel pressured?

How do you and your boyfriend manage disagreements? This is important because the request to limit contact with your mother is only one of many issues that can come up in a marriage. I ask because our FOO influences our relationships in some ways. If we have poor boundaries with a parent, we may also have poor boundaries with a romantic partner and tend to give in to keep the relationship. I know he is special to you, but I also think this is worth looking at in yourself- do you feel you have to accommodate his requests out of fear of losing him?

I see his point, but also I hope he is willing to understand yours. I think having stronger boundaries with your mother is a good thing, but it may take some help to get there. Even though you don't have major issues, a counselor can help you with boundaries. If you are willing to do this, it may help your relationship. This also takes the situation away from being between you and your BF and in the hands of a professional and removes the potential for a triangle between him, you and your mother.

[Guilty_Daughter]

thank you so much for the thoughtful reply.  I want to be clear that while my boyfriend is providing external motivation, the direction he has been pushing me in is one that I have long wanted to go -- less frequent contact, firmer boundaries with my mom.  The more I see of her or talk to her, the less happy I am -- I just feel so guilty about minimizing contact I haven't done it on my own.  I simply don't know what to say when she inevitably wants to visit, asks us to come, etc.  I should also mention that I have three brothers (I am the only daughter) who have gradually stopped visiting her; because I can't bring myself to do that, she has now kind of doubled down on our relationship--I think she sees I am the only one who will tolerate her.  This makes it all the more difficult for me, because I feel responsible; i.e. when I learned no one else was going home for the holidays, I felt I had to although I knew it would be miserable, as it was.

[zachira]

It is so confusing and painful when you have a mother with BPD who at times does all kinds of nice things for you and then at the flip of a switch is incredibly mean. You struggle with enormous guilt surrounding issues with your BPD mother. Now it is even more difficult because your mother acted just terrible when your boyfriend came for the holidays, and he does not want to come for the holidays again, and if you have children he has concerns about involving her in your children's lives. First and foremost, you are not alone in having these feelings about having dealt throughout your life with a mother like this. So many of us in this group have similar challenges with our mothers with BPD. Quite frankly, your mother sounds a lot like mine. There are no easy solutions yet with time and more understanding, you will be less overwhelmed with guilt and her behaviors, though always will regret having a mother that did not know how to love and respect her daughter. Probably the first step is understanding that a mother with BPD  is terribly threatened by having her child be a separate person from her. She will do everything she can to keep you enmeshed with her including being incredibly loving at times, and acting like a wild bull when she feels threatened by your becoming a separate person from her. My mother did not want any of her children to get married, and did everything she could  to undermine our relationships. When one of my brothers was just six, mom was having an absolute melt down that he and another little girl in kindergarten liked each other. The last time one of my brothers had a girlfriend I told mom right in front of my brother, I did not want to hear one unkind word about the girlfriend. You will find ways to set boundaries with your mother that will help though not change who she is fundamentally. It sounds like you already have a pretty good grasp of who your mother is and were anticipating that she would behave badly before your boyfriend came for the holidays. What you could not predict is just how badly she would behave. Now you have to protect your relationship at all costs, and any attempts your mother makes to prevent you from marrying, having a significant other. How often do you see your mother? What kind of contact do you have with her now: Do you talk on the phone, email, visit her alone? We are here to listen and help in any way we can. Keep us posted on how you are doing, what is working the best, and how we can be the most helpful.There are many people who have posted in this group for long periods of time, and are now leading happier lives even with the challenges that come from having a mother with BPD.

[Notwendy]

I am glad your BF is supportive. Would you consider seeing a counselor trained in helping adult children with BPD parents? I think it helps to get expert advise and also to keep your boyfriend out of the Karpman ( drama) triangle with you and your mother.

When it comes to you and your boyfriend setting boundaries, she will take victim perspective on the triangle and place you in persecutor position. You will likely recognize some of the roles you have taken with her. Going to see her at Christmas may have been taking rescuer role. Even if you ( thankfully) don't have a major issue - these roles and dynamics with our BPD parent are habitual for us. We fear the consequences and feel guilty when we don't take them on.

A counselor can provide advice as well as emotional support without being wrapped up in the dynamics. Your BF is connected to you. The counselor has an objective perspective. In your dealings with your mother, you can leave your BF out of the triangle dynamics. This becomes between you, the counselor and her. You can then vent to the counselor. Of course your BF can be aware of what is going on but is spared the drama of the triangle dynamics.

[Guilty_Daughter]

zachira--thanks so much for your thoughtful response.  you are spot-on with almost all of what to say.   One big difference is that I think my mom doesn't want to end my relationships -- she's always liked my boyfriends (although of course after interacting four about 5 minutes none of them like her!) and if anything tries to be annoyingly close to them.  In fact, when my dad divorced her she had an affair with a married man who wouldn't leave his wife, and she would call my then-boyfriend sobbing about it and threatening suicide all the time-- rather than me!   So if anything, she tries to get inappropriately close to them.
 with regard to your questions, I talk on the phone to my mom about once a week.  I only go visit about once a year -- it is just too difficult for me, I'll frequently make arrangements but cancel last minute because I just can't stomach it with an excuse about work, etc.  But she wants to visit with some frequency, and she also comes to the city where I live for work conferences about once a month, and typically wants to see me then for dinner.  Sometimes I make up an excuse, sometimes she is having a breakdown about work and cancels on me, and sometimes it happens.   So I'd say I see her about 6 times per year. 

Notwendy--thanks for your thoughtful responses, too.  Seeing a counselor is something I would definitely consider.  I actually had a therapist for a while to deal with these issues, she was only ok though and I stopped seeing her a few months ago.  Maybe it's time for a new therapist who is better at understanding these situations.

[Harri]

Hi and welcome.  You have received some great replies from both zachira and Notwendy.   

We talk a lot here about how our mothers look to us for emotional support and stability and how they see us as an extension of their self.  It can be quite difficult to break through the guilt we feel when trying to break that bond.  Boundaries can help with that as can self differentiation. 

Can you talk more about how it was for you when you felt you had to visit your mom at Christmas because none of your brothers were going to see her? 

You mentioned you tried boundaries with her but you always lose.  What does that mean?

[Guilty_Daughter]

Hi Harri--thanks for your response and questions.  and I agree-great responses so far.

So, with regard to your question about visiting at Christmas -- I would say the overwhelming emotion I experienced was anxiety, for weeks leading up to it.  When I learned none of my brothers were going, I would say I felt as though I had to - I felt responsible.   For some reason, I feel the need to protect her from the consequences of her 60 years of awful behavior and prevent her from being lonely and having to face the fact that no one can stand her (neither her siblings nor mine do anymore, and she has no friends).
 At the same time, I knew that it wasn't going to be a good experience, because it never can be with her .  Initially I had planned to go alone, as I vowed a while back not to subject my boyfriend (I'll call him Adam) to her.   When she repeatedly asked why Adam wasn't coming, I felt very bad, so I asked him if he could endure a short, 36 hour visit.  He agreed, but it was even worse than I expected.  Both she and her partner -- who I don't know very well and I don't think is borderline, but is just mean -- made repeated nasty, cutting and derogatory remarks (many clearly spurred by jealousy/insecurity) about us and others.  My mother in particular has a very disturbing habit of saying something very cruel and then chuckling, which is off-putting, to say the least.
When we got back to our hotel (I did insist we stay at a hotel) Adam was very upset and said that he just could not believe how awful they were, he had never met such a cold, mean mother in his life.  I felt extremely conflicting emotions:  guilty that I had subjected him to this experience, guilty that I knew my mom had been trying, within her capabilities, of having a nice time so she probably had no idea that we were miserable, etc.  Just really a lot of guilt.  I cried myself to sleep and then we had to go back for the entire next day, which was more or less a repeat experience.  

As far as your question about trying to set boundaries and always losing, I guess the above is a good example.  The guilt overwhelms me, so whatever vow I have made (I'll never bring Adam there; I'll never go for the holidays, etc) end up being thrown to the wind when she pushes an issue.  I just can't tell her I don't want to go, I don't want to be around her, and as soon as I sense she's not buying the excuse (I'm too busy; he's too busy), I just say "ok, we'll both come" or "ok, you can stay with us for the weekend."  It always ends up being miserable, and takes me weeks to recover from the emotional abuse/drain.

[zachira]

I hear your confusion on trying to set boundaries with your mother. It takes time to figure out what works best for you, and there will likely be times when certain types of responses work better than others. It is so hard because you never know when the mean out of control behaviors are coming. One thing my therapist encouraged me to do was to maintain contact with my family and not just cut them off. Over the years, it has helped me to maintain the contact, work on my being overwhelmed by their responses (My two siblings have BPD and NPD just like mom.), and to continue to set the necessary boundaries. The family eventually responded very badly to some of my boundaries, yet I have increasingly had the strength to set better boundaries, and am now no longer feeling guilty about what I have to do. If I had just cut them off, I think the wounds would be still be festering, as I would not have really dealt with my own emotional reactions which caused me so much turmoil whether I was with them or not. Deciding on how much contact to have if any, and what kind of contact to have is different for everyone, and can be different at different times. Certainly, it is important to heal from all the past and ongoing trauma. For some people, a phone call a week from their BPD parent is too overwhelming, and enough to prevent them from being able to overcome the negative emotional affects of being raised by a parent with BPD. I recently took a several week long trip abroad in which I only had extremely limited contact with my family members with BPD and NPD, either by mail or email, and it really healed my soul and relieved the feelings of overwhelming guilt I felt towards them. I wish everyone who had a family member with BPD/NPD could get this type of break from the ongoing hell of dealing with their family members. What I am trying to say, is you will find your way, and will make many decisions on what is right for you right now, which might not be right for you in the future. As for your mother, getting too close to your boyfriends, you are probably doing what works best, in keeping them safe by not having them around your mother. I think it would help to talk with a therapist that understands BPD, so what happened/happens between you and your mother, does not become too much of a focus in your relationship. Just keyboarding along, and hope what I have to say is helpful. Do let us know how you are doing, as we care, and know there is hope for things to get better.

[Guilty_Daughter]

Zachira--thanks so much, there's a lot of helpful info in your response.  It's made me reflect on the amount of contact there is and think that it could be helpful to reduce it.  Essentially, I have found, the less interaction I have with my mother, the happier I am.  This has of course led me to consider cutting her off completely, which you discussed in the context of your own life.  Like you, I just don't think I can -- I don't have the heart to and I think it might be worse in the long run.  So it is about maintaining healthier boundaries which may begin with less frequent phone contact.  And after the comments here I am strongly considering returning to therapy, with someone who really understands BPD. 

[zachira]

Glad to hear that you are feeling more comfortable in making decisions on what you have to do in terms of being less negatively affected by the relationship with your mother while having limited contact with her. My mother acts better when others are around that she wants to impress, and I try to have one of these people around when I see her in person. Phone calls are difficult and I usually let her initiate them, though sometimes I call so I won't be suffering worrying when she is going to call me out of the blue in a state of panic which can be very upsetting for me. Sometimes it is better for me to plan the contact, and then she leaves me alone for long  periods of time. Some or none of this may work with your mother. What kind of boundaries do you feel would work best for you with your mother?

[Snoopy737]

Hey Guilty_Daughter

Your story really caught my attention. I'm a guy from Europe, and while reading your post and you answers, I tried to imagine how it must be like to be “Adam”.

My sister has indeed Borderline-traits, and my mother has some, too, but not as bad as sisters. My dad was a bit introvert, and also didn't have any social skills and always had to tell visitors his strong opinions in politics and so on. It was pretty imbarassing when my sister and I very kids, and it was even more embarassing, when we became adults and had friends and girlfriends visiting.

I have worked so many years on my relationship to my sister, with help from therapists and all, and it didn't get better. Right now she don't want any contact with me. It's a relief, but it's also very sad.

For a year I also had a friend (a woman with BPD in her 30s), and I helped her to get help with DBT and our hospital, but after one year with almost none progress, I had to cut the ties. She called me everytime, she was suicidal, and I went to hospital with her the first time, but when the calls came, like 3 times in 2 weeks, I had to let her go as my friend. It was pulling me under. And the therapists told me, that I had a great, big heart, but that I didn't have the health to be her friend or to have contact with my sister, and it's really not a normal thing to say, but after they had heard my stories for about 1½ year, they could tell that especially my sister didn't make progress, and took most of her bad tempers out on me, and I could only see that about ½ year after she wanted no contact, because for the first time, I didn't spend all my time trying to figure out, how I could get a better relationship with sister. I just let her go and started to make new contacts and start new hobbies, so that I won't be completely alone in this world.

If I had a girlfriend with a mother as sick with BPD, as you describe, tbh I wouldn't be pleased. Also because I have felt how it can change my mood completely being with sister. The anxiety attacks I had before me and my family had to go visit her (when I was a teen) and all the s*it she dragged into our family.

But, You really sound cool, and it's easy to read, that you don't have any BPD traits yourself. Your father must really have been a good, sweet guy.  So, would I stay in a relationship with a woman, with a strange mother like that? Absolutely. As long as she could see all the strange things her mother did to her. I really understand the feeling of guilt, too. I have had it a bit with my mom and dad, when they were acting strange, but at the same time had cancer, then I couldn't visit twice a year, I had to be there every second week to help them out. I know the feeling of guilt of not doing enough for my parents, and it's terrible, but the only thing that helps is to speak with someone after every visit, that don't know my parents. Sometimes a help line, where they dare to ask the right qustions and I dare to be 100% honest. It's such a relief afterwards. And maybe, just maybe, you could ally with your boyfriend, bc he doesn't have any old feelings about your mom. So, when you actually wanna keep a greater distance from your mother, mayby you could plan the rules of engagement ;) with your boyfriend, before the 'battle'.

I don't know how handy your boyfriend is, but I'm really into both computers and into craft and DIY, so if I had a mother in law like your mom, I would definitely search her house or apartment desperately to find something I could fix for her. Why? Bc then I could wander around by myself and my powertools, actually doing something nice for the lady, but without having to hear all her bs. And maybe it would be just a timy bit easier for you to have a conversation with your mom? And maybe you wouldn't have a stomach ache about bringing your boyfriend to you mothers, when you knew your boyfriend made something for your mom while he was there. Fixing the computer in another room, maybe adjusting the kitchen table, putting up a cupboard, decorating mom's garden with christmas light chains, clean her coffee maker with vingar, putting up a fence in her garden etc. I know I would be so relieved, if I wouldn't need to sit at the coffee table for more than the first 10 minutes, and that I then could go fix something for a couple of hours in your mom's home. And actually I think the feeling of neglect could be a little less, when you thought about how your boyfriend actually fixed something for your mother that last time you were there. And maybe if you can't stand talking to your mom for that long, you could engage in the project, too.

The men I know always does stuff like that, when they have to visit their mother in law, and if they can't do anything practical, maybe because it's Christmas Eve, they tell me they go absolutely mad. They can't stand the superficial subjects their mothers in law continuesly bring up. ;)

When that's said, I would schedule a visit for maybe 2 hours, and I would always plan something right after your mom, like something you can't change, theater tickets or dinner at some friends who is expecting you at e.g. 7pm, so you only have to drink the afternoon tea or coffee with your mom.

I know all my suggestions are only workarounds, but that's bc BPD is so hard, that you can't just change your mothers behaviour just like that.

If you can show your boyfriend, that you can cope with a deal with him, about maybe only staying for 2 hours (and not for 36! Yeeezzz, I don't know any of my friends who can cope with their own mothers or mothers in law for that long, he he) and the moving on to something else, and you don't make him stay for days, I'm pretty confident he also want to have children with you. If you just plan, how you can get away with the kids NOT staying alone with your mom. Maybe you can plan for a trip to the Zoo with your mom and your kids in the future, and the everyone maybe would be happy? And remember to plan something else just after the Zoo, so you don't have to stay at your mom's.

I'm pretty confident, that you could work this situation out with your boyfriend. And if you're so lucky, that your boyfriend can fix something for your mom, so he can get a break, maybe your bad feelings about not being there so much, could be a little less? I don't know.

Just a few suggestions on how I would handle such a situation.

Good luck and all best from Snoopy

[Guilty_Daughter]

Hi Snoopy--thanks for your encouraging reply and sharing your own story -- that sounds really tough.   I can completely relate to the embarrassing parents saying inappropriate things to company.  I feel like that was my entire childhood. Great suggestions.  The trouble with the length of visits though, is that my mom lives like 6 hours away, so it's hard for me to visit for just a couple of hours.   There is no one else I know in her town, and it is such a long trip it's hard to stay for just a brief time.  Maybe the answer is to never visit.  I hadn't been in 1.5 years, but she kept asking me to so I finally said yes and figured I could endure a couple days.   Perhaps I just have to get up the courage to tell her that spending two or three days with her is simply too much.  She will get upset and start screaming and crying, but maybe I just have to do it.
 She does come to my city for business semi-frequently, and those are much better visits - we usually just go to dinner after work for an hour or so.

[Harri]

Perhaps I just have to get up the courage to tell her that spending two or three days with her is simply too much.  She will get upset and start screaming and crying, but maybe I just have to do it.

She would get upset for sure at least the first few times it happens.  But what would you feel?  By not saying no, I can't stay that long, you end up spending days with her and feeling horrible.  How is that different from saying no, having her get upset and possibly yell and rage, yet you get to limit your contact?  Are you really avoiding conflict/uncomfortable feelings by not saying no?

Thoughts?  

[Guilty_Daughter]

Harri- it's about courage, or lack therefore.  I think fear of her rage looms large for me and making her mad seems like the worst thing that can happen.  But you are right.  it is a really terrible, vicious cycle.  I do anything to avoid the rage, and then just end up miserable and tormented for days/weeks after interacting with her.

I actually saw her last night -- she was in town and had asked to stay with me this coming weekend.  I said no, came up with an excuse and said I had plans.  But agreed to dinner.  She managed to put me down several times throughout, including telling me it doesn't seem I'll ever be promoted at work, but I also probably won't be able to find another job so I should probably just stay. I came away feeling horrible and regretted having even spent two hours with her.   I just wish I could cut ties with her, but I don't know how.

[zachira]

I hear how awful it is to go out to dinner with your mother and she does everything she can to devalue you and your accomplishments, basically anything that demonstrates that you are not a separate individual from her and to show her distress over how you have accomplished more that she ever will. It is understandable that you don't want to be around your mother at all, and wish you could go no contact. My mother called me this week. She had her hearing aid off so she could make her usual devaluing comments, and would not have to listen to what I had to say back. I made an excuse and hung up after a couple of minutes. You are doing what you can to limit your contact with your mother. Of course, you do not want her as a house guest, and she certainly resents that and has said as many hurtful things as possible to get even with you. The key is to not let the bad feelings fester for too long after the contact. You are posting on this site, are supporting yourself, have a boyfriend, and are very successful and happy in many areas of your life, despite having such a terrible example for a mother. You are now struggling with the bad feelings when your mother mistreats you. It can help to remind yourself that the mean things she says to you are about how she feels about herself, and have nothing to do with you. If you were to go no contact for good, what would that look like? I know for now you want to do low contact, and are mainly struggling with the bad taste she leaves in your mouth after you have contact with her. It can help to envision a future without your mother in your life, whether is through her death or other means. I have found that starting to live life now, as if my mother were not in my life, has helped to relieve some of the misery, and I think I will be happier person when she is gone because I won't have as many regrets about not living life to the best of my abilities while she was still alive. What do you think?