Who are we as Non’s to “diagnose” - Part 2

[Red5]

Split from: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=333210.0

NotWendy wrote... .”Later, my oldest child came home from her first psychology class saying " I think we studied grandma today". ”

Good morning Wendy!

I am curious... .for my own “research’s sake”... .what year did this occur, when your oldest came home from school and said that to you.

I am comparing to autism, as my oldest son was born in 1986, and there was “not much out there” about autism at that time.

Thank you in advance : )

Red5

[Ruskin]

Thanks for your reply Red5 on your other thread, replying here as other one had reached it's limit.

Thanks, R

[Enabler]

None of us are qualified to "diagnose" but having a name for and a set of tools to deal with how grandma behaves has been invaluable. Much of the emotional difficulties I have had with her have been from not knowing, or understanding why she acts like she does or knowing how to respond to it. It's not about putting a label or diagnosis on someone. It's about finding a guide map after feeling lost.

The label may or may not help them- but that's up to them. My mother also lied to the therapists- and that made it impossible to help her, but the "diagnosis" has helped me to learn about myself and also how to deal with her.

NAIL ON THE HEAD Notwendy.

I spent years confused as to why my W didn't seem to operate on the same frequency as me or anyone else I knew. BPD was like the enigma machine which allowed me to make sense of not only my W's behaviours and thought processes (as much as I could tell what they were) but make sense of my own experience and frustrations. Weirdly it also enabled me to explain why my W struggles with her FOO since the apple didn't fall far from the tree and the multi-generational nature of the disorder now makes total sense to me.

So diagnosis or not... .the enigma machine works... .and works consistently... .and I get her even though I couldn't be further away from her emotionally. The only cruelty would be to weaponise my own supposed diagnosis.

Enabler

[Mutt]

I don’t want to generalize but I don’t think that it’s about our egos it’s about problem solving. I agree with NotWendy nothing worked for a few years until I started to learn about BPD its was distressing now it has its moments but my family can cope a lot better.

[Notwendy]

Red- I can’t recall the exact time. My kids are younger than your son - it was more recent about the same age I was when I took high school / college level intro to psych. What I meant was - that even a student that age can start to put the pieces together - not diagnose but figure out that what they are reading about sounds like someone with BPD. I was wondering about it too then but info was not available.

In the last 10-15 years there’s a lot more info available on mental healh... it’s not so hidden anymore.

[JNChell]

Most of us participating in this thread have diagnosed at one time or another. We wouldn’t be here if we hadn’t.  Being involved with abusively behaviored people is almost some kind of anomaly when we look at how it triggers our psyche. Often times our past. The present hurt is the pain that hurts the most. It’s  ’ing acute when it happens.

I agree with what has been discussed within this thread. I’ll condense it to the “duck”. Diagnosable or not, it’s the pattern of behaviors. What hurts you, and what doesn’t? How does the peace and quiet feel for you and S32?

[Mutt]

Hi Red5,

Is this about trying to come terms with that someone that was close to you that you cared a lot about has a serious mental illness? I thought mental illness were like the paintings there’s a famous on depression. I thought that is what mental illness looks like or like people talking to themselves.

It’s hard to accept that your ex was mentally ill. Re-reading your OP you’re trying to look for answers but your consciousness is telling that you’re not qualified to diagnose. You could have left it there and said it’s not possible that she has BPD traits. I read denial in your message.

[Notwendy]

Maybe it would help to keep in mind that BPD is a spectrum - like autism. It's a personality disorder and maybe some pw BPD don't fit people's idea of "mentally ill" ( and some do).

BPD is difficult to see sometimes as there are moments of what seems like normal and it is puzzling that they can't do this consistently. During the normal times, I think we can doubt our own perception. Did they really do that? Did I really see that?

I have an acquaintance who suffers from schizophrenia. Sometimes she talks about things that are for certain not real. It's obvious she has  a mental illness. By comparison, BPD is not as obvious as that, so it makes sense we question our judgment. It doesn't always fit that picture of mental illness. Therapists are more skilled at diagnosis but we can still recognize when something is amiss.

[Skip]

Who are we as Non’s am I to “diagnose”label, blame, and judge?

Isn't this the real question that you are asking?  Along with it's corollary, why is so easy to put the marriage failure on her, and not see my own role in it?

I say this not to judge (let's not), but rather to encourage you not see this as being as one-dimensional as you may be seeing it. Your description of being a completely self-sacrificing "co-dependent" may not be a fully accurate reflection of this story. You have been in a bit of a dark bitter place, yourself.

In addition to all the things that you have discussed about the breakdown of the relationship (alot of valid things), there is also the fact that your wife is in the hopeless phase of a deadly cancer and you have not been emotionally unavailable for a year or more, finding solace in a wine jar and fishing rod.

So its a very good question that you ask. In my opinion, assessing someones personality is an emotionally intelligent thing to do. Not to judge, but to understand. If a person has "BPD tendencies" or "narcissistic tendencies" or "addiction tendencies" and we can see that,  it helps us have a better understanding of who they are and how to interface with them and what to expect from them.

From you wife's side of this, she is facing the most stressful thing anyone can face (mortality, and pwBPD don't handle stress well), her marriage had gone fallow, and she was told to leave. Regardless of all that happened prior to this last year, she certainly has reason to feel betrayed, too.

It's a very complex dynamic going on here, Red, don't you think? Lot's of moving parts. I think when you look at all of it, the recent actions make more sense.

I'm not suggesting that you are at fault, I don't think that matters anyway. I am suggesting to not lose sight of the big picture. You will need to see that to heal and go on to a healthy future.

So the material I was reading, and the quite endless YouTube videos’ … were referring to this “DSM” … I got to check this “DSM” out, …. more google searches returned the hard target … let’s see, there is “criteria” here … only have to meet “nine” … oh’ no : (

She is at an eight, or a hard seven … so she is a BPD?

I don't think the videos that you are watching are helping you understand mental illness.    Try this. Read the whole thing:
https://bpdfamily.com/content/borderline-personality-disorder  This is the only complete version of the DSM description on the "net".

[Red5]

Try this. Read the whole thing:
-> link/url <-
 This is the only complete version of the DSM description on the "net".

Thanks Skip !

[empath]

I think sometimes it's hard because there is a difference in couples who are dealing with significant mental illness and the normal marriage issues. I have been thinking about this for a few weeks now - realizing that I have a few friends who have lived with someone who has "mental health issues". I also have friends who have had loved ones who had marriage issues.

A couple of months ago, I saw a friend from years ago at a store. She said that her husband was "out of the house" because of his mental illness. I think it's harder when there isn't an official diagnosis - but the challenges are similar and it's a very, very different thing than the normal marriage issues. When a spouse becomes a danger to themselves and/or their family, safety becomes the priority.

[JNChell]

I’ve been starting to dig into all 10 of the personality disorders. Not just Cluster B. There is A LOT of overlap with BPD. There’s also a lot of overlap with anxiety disorders. Also, as Notwendy has stated, all of this is on a spectrum. For lack of better words, so much can look like so much. Perhaps, at the end of the day, it comes down to behavior and what an individual is willing to recognize and accept about themselves and what that individual is willing to do about it. The only thing a person can truly change is themselves. With positive change, positive influence can be offered but not always accepted. Here is where Radical Acceptance is embraced or not. The Serenity Payer .

As has been stated here several times, it takes a professional to do this, and IMHO with some of the professionals that I’ve sat with, some with my ex, it takes a certain type of professional to be able to do this correctly. A professional with a real interest in the matter.

[MeandThee29]

I agree that it's not good to diagnose without being thoughtful and careful about it. However, when you compare normal relationship conflict versus BPD conflict, you have to draw the line. The abandonment issues are a big flag too.

I blamed myself so much that I really didn't see it at first. I knew that he was very rigid and that I had to walk on eggshells all of the time because I never knew when he would fly off the handle. It was ironic because a mutual friend had commented just before we got married that if we ever had problems, it would like come from his rigidity. And we always fought when I went on a business trip. And he had ongoing issues with me going anywhere with anyone other than him if it wasn't work or church which included doing things with our children without him. If I did things with women friends he would be hurt and ask why he wasn't enough. He had acquaintances, not friends.

My husband convinced me that his episodes were just part of a normal relationship, and what did I know? I had grown up in a highly dysfunctional household.

We had a seen a therapist related to his aspects of PTSD, and I secretly went back to her for several years before he left. One of our kids began having anxiety issues related to the environment in the home. That's when it hit me hard that things weren't right. She talked about NPD, but BPD didn't come up until he saw her after a suicide attempt for about a month. He quit going, saying that we had poisoned her and that she was trying to get him to take responsibility. I continued to go on the sly which was difficult because he had retired by then. All along, she urged me to get out, but when I refused, she helped me to stay. Then it all unravelled again, and he left.

At times I truly miss him, but he insists that he has to be in charge of any attempts at reconciliation. And no counselling and accountability. His family is enabling because they see it as a normal marital conflict. So there we are.

[MeandThee29]

As has been stated here several times, it takes a professional to do this, and IMHO with some of the professionals that I’ve sat with, some with my ex, it takes a certain type of professional to be able to do this correctly. A professional with a real interest in the matter.

I agree. The therapist we see is a PhD clinical psychologist with an interest in trauma. It was from her that I found out issues with PTSD, even if it is not full-blown PTSD, can lead to aspects of BPD and NPD as the person copes in unhealthy ways.

I still wonder if he has a secret from his childhood that he may or not remember. He always said that he remembered very, very little of his early childhood. His father was largely absent because of travel, and I know that he had significant problems with that. Then there was a later event that brought in the aspects of PTSD, but there were signs of BPD very early on.

Anyway, just speculation. I'll probably never know.

[Red5]

Meandthee29 wrote... .He always said that he remembered very, very little of his early childhood.

That’s a red flag, I’ve also heard the same thing both from my ex wife, and my current (suspected) BPD wife.

I think the reason they don’t remember is because their subconscious is protecting them... .

My first wife was abused sexually as a little girl, on into her early teenage years... .she told many times that she remembered almost nothing of her childhood.

My current wife (now separated) told me when we were dating “I had a wonderful childhood”, then later she reports that she was never close to her mother, and that she was very angry with her father for many years, and she also later said she doesn’t remember a whole lot about her childhood either... .I will also add that she left home at sixteen to marry a soldier who was seven years older than her.

Lots to unpack... .

Seems to me it’s all right there if we have the courage to take a good long look, as far as their histories... .

I only wish I’d been more knowledgeable in the beginning of the relationship... .then I could have perhaps supported her better, and maybe things would be different now, or perhaps not... .a lot to ponder.

Red5

[MeandThee29]

That’s a red flag, I’ve also heard the same thing both from my ex wife, and my current (suspected) BPD wife.

I think the reason they don’t remember is because their subconscious is protecting them ... .

Seems to me it’s all right there if we have the courage to take a good long look, as far as their histories ... .

I only wish I’d been more knowledgeable in the beginning of the relationship ... .then I could have perhaps supported her better, and maybe things would be different now, or perhaps not ... .a lot to ponder.

Interestingly, I grew up in a dysfunctional home with an NPD mother and passive father, and I remember LOTS from age 4-5 on. I had therapy in college and then when my NPD mother was in decline. Of course people in that situation have lifetime struggles, but at least I had gone into that with a professional. The therapist says that I was likely attractive to him because he wanted to "save" me. Except I became his scapegoat and the focus of his fury and desire to control as he unravelled.

Because he doesn't remember and is super-loyal to his family, I doubt that going into his past would have gone anywhere. There were family secrets in the immediate family that came out as our relationship broke apart (ironically more than my family). I've distanced myself from them by choice though because they have few boundaries and talk too much. I found out that there had even been some lying about how we were busy and still together in order to cover up what happened with people close to them. Not my people at this point.