Christian Discussion: Husband's role in decision to join a church

[VIDEO: "What is parental alienation?"]

Hopefully quick and relevant history.  We moved several years ago and both of us seemed in agreement about the church we would pursue and ultimately join.  We are conservative Baptist variety with my wife expressing much more conservative beliefs that I espouse, yet I'm hard pressed to see consistent action that lines up with those beliefs.

Spending days in prayer followed by a public "trial" of me in front of my kids where I was "accused" of not being "Christian at all" tends to set off my hypocrisy meter.  (anyone say projection?)

We also agreed to seek "biblical" MC to help our relationship.  That was disastrous and I have an ethical complaint that is slowly making it's way through "appropriate" channels. 

This is a large church and I have many important relationships there and the children's ministry is one of (if not the) best I've ever been around.  So, while the one or two ministers I'm crossed up with regarding BC, there are many good things about the church.

So... .I figured the most wise thing was to push the "pause" button until the ethical stuff reached a conclusion.  I suspect, but don't know for sure that is a month or two away.  Full disclosure:  My busy schedule and slow manner (disabilities) of getting things done has contributed to the slow speed.  I don't see any way around that.

My wife didn't want any part of the ethical complaint, refusing to discuss it at all.

She did seem to agree that it was best to wait until it was over before deciding to join or not, bu there was heavy "eye roll" in how she said it.

Well... a couple weeks ago she emails me that she is going to join the church and hopes I will join with her.  My strategy was to kick the can down the road a bit to see if this would burn out, so I proposed a few weeks ago to have a "retreat" last night to listen and talk to each other.

Yesterday morning she wanted to start the conversation as I was starting work on my MBA classes.  I reminded her that we had agreed to talk later that evening when we could snuggle up by ourselves and talk for a while.  She seemed happy with that.

Fast forward to me being at the gym last night around 7 or 730pm.  I get a text from her saying I broke my promise to her, didn't care about my plans and she was going to bed.

I responded that I'd be home soon and had no intention of changing plans. (tried to keep it short)

Perspective:  My wife normally goes to bed about 11 to midnight.  It's been months since she went to bed at such an early hour.  I know for a fact (since I was in bed with her for few days before) that she is further "ahead" on her sleep than normal.

Well... I get home and she does appear to be asleep so I stay up for a few hours working on MBA stuff and I also spent some time with church articles she sent me.

I briefly responded to the email and sent her a couple articles that were impactful for me.

more to come...

FF

[formflier]

Hopefully quick and relevant history.  We moved several years ago and both of us seemed in agreement about the church we would pursue and ultimately join.  We are conservative Baptist variety with my wife expressing much more conservative beliefs that I espouse, yet I'm hard pressed to see consistent action that lines up with those beliefs.

Spending days in prayer followed by a public "trial" of me in front of my kids where I was "accused" of not being "Christian at all" tends to set off my hypocrisy meter.  (anyone say projection?)

We also agreed to seek "biblical" MC to help our relationship.  That was disastrous and I have an ethical complaint that is slowly making it's way through "appropriate" channels. 

This is a large church and I have many important relationships there and the children's ministry is one of (if not the) best I've ever been around.  So, while the one or two ministers I'm crossed up with regarding BC, there are many good things about the church.

So... .I figured the most wise thing was to push the "pause" button until the ethical stuff reached a conclusion.  I suspect, but don't know for sure that is a month or two away.  Full disclosure:  My busy schedule and slow manner (disabilities) of getting things done has contributed to the slow speed.  I don't see any way around that.

My wife didn't want any part of the ethical complaint, refusing to discuss it at all.

She did seem to agree that it was best to wait until it was over before deciding to join or not, bu there was heavy "eye roll" in how she said it.

Well... a couple weeks ago she emails me that she is going to join the church and hopes I will join with her.  My strategy was to kick the can down the road a bit to see if this would burn out, so I proposed a few weeks ago to have a "retreat" last night to listen and talk to each other.

Yesterday morning she wanted to start the conversation as I was starting work on my MBA classes.  I reminded her that we had agreed to talk later that evening when we could snuggle up by ourselves and talk for a while.  She seemed happy with that.

Fast forward to me being at the gym last night around 7 or 730pm.  I get a text from her saying I broke my promise to her, didn't care about my plans and she was going to bed.

I responded that I'd be home soon and had no intention of changing plans. (tried to keep it short)

Perspective:  My wife normally goes to bed about 11 to midnight.  It's been months since she went to bed at such an early hour.  I know for a fact (since I was in bed with her for few days before) that she is further "ahead" on her sleep than normal.

Well... I get home and she does appear to be asleep so I stay up for a few hours working on MBA stuff and I also spent some time with church articles she sent me.

I briefly responded to the email and sent her a couple articles that were impactful for me.

more to come...

FF

[formflier]

She sends

So, you got home from working out at 8:45. Apparently you are saying that you wanted to talk then but we can't because I was in bed. Nice. I have read the first article. I will read the second. I will email (pastors name) and ask him to set up a meeting with the deacons so I  can share my testimony.  From my perspective, right now you seem to be leading our family to not attend church at all.

so... .I respond with

Thanks for sharing your perspective.  If you want to understand my actual perspective I would hope we could have a series of conversations focused on understanding each others actual thoughts, feelings and emotions about this critically important matter.

To clarify the status of my leading:  Until ethical issues with (name of church) are resolved in such a manner that both of us agree they are resolved, I do not give my blessing for any member of my family to join or seek "biblical" (or any other) counsel on any matter whatsoever.  My prayerful consideration of this matter has led me to believe we should let the process continue to the end before making decisions one way or another.  

Love,

FF

There is an interesting pickle me wife is in.  I'm interested on your guys thoughts on how this will play out.

My wife believes that the husband is in charge of her spiritual well being and God has placed me here as a "tiebreaker"  (if needed) if there is not agreement on spiritual matters.

The church believes that the husband is the primary spiritual authority in the home and I can't imagine they would let any child or wife join without the husbands consent.  

She wants my consent, yet the accusations and BPDish stuff (and the ethical concerns) make giving consent unlikely.

So... .will she follow her beliefs?  

The last time we ever got crossed up like this was 7-8 years ago and I unwisely agreed to join another church based on promises that her behavior would improve because she was closer to God (or some such argument).  Chances I'll fall for such arguments again are hopefully low.

So... .how do you guys see the "pickle" playing out?  

FF

[I Am Redeemed]

FF,

I think your wife's professed belief in the husband as "tiebreaker" sounds good to her in theory... .in practice, she is only comfortable with that belief if you break the tie so that she "wins".

I think compromise is a very hard concept for someone with black and white thinking... .it's either A or Z... .middle ground is hard to reach because anything other than A is viewed as Z... .and anything other than A is perceived as "you don't care about, respect, love me, etc".

She wanted to talk when you were getting ready to do schoolwork. You suggested that the conversation be postponed until later, meaning before bedtime when you could be alone and comfortable with each other and exchange points of view, feelings, etc. She agreed, but it's possible that she only processed that as far as "not now, later" and then when you went to the gym she interpreted that as you not making the conversation a priority. To "prove" herself right, she sent you the message and then went to bed much earlier than usual.

How do I see this playing out? She will do what she wants and come up with some reason that justifies her acting in contrast to her expressed belief in the husband's role. She will find a loophole, an exemption, and probably make it your fault, whether it makes sense or not.

Redeemed

[formflier]

Totally agree. 

If she keeps this all to herself, she can have all kinds of unicorns and leprechauns at work.

However... .the part about joining the church means she has to engage others to be part of her plan. 

I'm not going to get out in front of her and stir up drama, but if she contacts deacons and pastors... .I'll clarify the status of my blessing.

If they want to override that... .then you have an entire institution going against their professed beliefs, which I find highly unlikely...

FF

[Fian]

Is there any practical difference between a regular attending non-member and a member?

[empath]

The loophole is if the husband is asking the wife to do something "sinful" - then she obeys God. "Leading our family not to attend" would likely fall under the sinful category - forsaking the assembling of the saints... . 

If she can portray herself as the poor victim, all the better. Either you are bad because you don't want her to join or because you have gone "liberal" and want to attend a different church.

[AskingWhy]

FF, my own uBPD H shows the double-standard side of BPD.

He claims to be religious and then denies the existence of God in a matter of hours when he is mad at me.  (He's always mad at me for something.)  He claims to espouse the tenets of religion, and will then scream he wants to divorce his me and punches holes in walls, or breaks wine glasses in the sink (sometimes with a bit of wine still in them).

He claims to have found religion after the death of his mother, but he has not heard that anger (rage) is on the the Seven Deadly Sins.   I have stayed with him 20 years because I value the sanctity of marriage, but my own patience is wearing thin.    There may be a straw that breaks the camel's back.

[Notwendy]

FF, you know I sometimes try to present the other side of the coin. As Fian asked, the difference between being a member and a non member is also social and a sense of being a contributor to the church. Even if you donate to the church, becoming a member signs you on as supporter and also officially a part of the community.

Even if you have ethical concerns about one of the pastors, you note that there are benefits to the church and it seems that is where you and your family attend. Church also provides other benefits besides religion, one is social. Could it be that your wife is feeling- we've been going here regularly but is uncomfortable being a non member socially? Maybe she wants to seek the sense of belonging that joining a church can have.

This could be the case for a non BPD person as well. People can want to have a church home. While there is no financial obligation to attend church- all are welcome- it does cost money to run a church- the staff, overhead, the building. Even if you donate regularly- being a member means the church can count on you. Maybe she wants this sense of belonging socially and being a supporter.

No church is perfect and not everyone in a church has perfect behavior but people join a church to be part of that community. Now, you are again in a gridlock with your wife who wants something and you have reservations. Your religious views have a solution- it's your call-  but your call doesn't address the feelings behind her wish to join. This doesn't mean her feelings win, but you might want to look into her reasons for wanting to join along with your reservations and possibly come up with a solution.

[Enabler]

I think it would be important to start with the question, 'why does FF W profess to adhere to the idea that "The church believes that the husband is the primary spiritual authority in the home"?

In my experience with BPD traits, choice is a sticky spot for sufferers. Especially choices which bare risk... .lets call them decisions. Decisions bare risk, risk means things could turn out badly or not as intended and if they are culpable for that decision, THEY are wrong/bad. pwBPD spend quite a lot of their time avoiding decisions. They outsource this risk by getting other people to make decisions for them (hence in part the irony of them perceiving they are controlled, typically when decisions they have outsourced don't go as planned). This perception of being controlled is heightened when they feel an increasing desire to choose for themselves but are incapable/unwilling to step out on their own and make a choice themselves and would rather the outsource agent act as they demand. "I think you should choose for us to join".

It feels as though she's manipulating you/emotionally blackmailing you into a position (as before) where you join to keep her happy. I very much doubt that she is prepared to do this on her own... .not at all because the Baptist teaching is that this is the husbands role... .but because stepping out and taking risk brings forth the potential for failure. You making a decision for her, allows her perception of being a victim / being controlled / being at the mercy of other peoples actions to continue... .and you to take the blame and shame should that decision be 'wrong'.

I also think it's worthwhile considering what the relevance and rationality of this husband is head of the household idea. Using extreme ends of the rational argument (you were in a coma, you were serving in a war, you had Alzheimers) the sense that you are the only person in your family capable of leading them is just total nonsense. Your wife is perfectly capable of making decisions (ex BPD) in the modern context of the world we live in. The bible has to be contextualized as we no longer live in the fugal system of 2000 yrs ago. Your wife can vote, she can be the president, she can have her own bank account... .etc etc etc. There's no rational reason (or really modern spiritual reason) why she can't make a unilateral decision to join herself irrespective of when you decide to do. If she chooses not to, she then must adopt the responsibility of supporting your decision wholeheartedly. All choices have responsibilities and likely negative emotions (suppressing her own disappointment about you not choosing what she wants).

I put it to you that you like leading and believe you are a good leader who makes wise choices. However, have you considered that it is this very leadership that denies your W the responsibility of making choices and inadvertently rescues her?

This whole thing is one giant Karpman... .how do you get to the centre (coach)?

Enabler

[Notwendy]

Following what Enabler said- it may also have been a necessity in Biblical times if you had more than one wife   Otherwise the family might be a bit chaotic.

I don't mean disrespect, but this is one aspect I don't buy into, especially in our modern times. However, you and your wife are members of a denomination that does uphold this and this is the church you seek to join.

I have friends who don't buy into every one of their church's teaching, but they join their churches for the overall benefits to their family, raising their children in their church community and the activities of the church they think are good things- charity, soup kitchens.


I don't really have a good solution to suggest as I think this falls into general dysfunction about decisions where partners have different wishes. When there is dysfunction, it's difficult to negotiate a solution on many topics- money, sex, religion, housework.  

[Sirnut]

Hi FF

It sounds like there are some good positives with this church. But also some dangers you are right to be worried about.

If I’m reading between the lines correctly, this is an environment where your wife will have greater influence than you do with the church heirarchy, and she might use this against you in ways that you will find manipulative and humiliating. For example, she might say she needs help to get her husband to be a better Christian, and there will be people who will want to give her that help. And of course, that will just make things worse. These are the dangers you fear if you join - am I wrong?

I’m not saying don’t join. But if you do join, I suggest it might help if you first find a way of agreeing to keep the church hierarchy out of your marriage issues, including issues that might come up to do with unequal church commitment. You can only function confidently within the church community if you both know you are not going to use the community to get at the other person. In other words, you will always put each other first.

Do you think you can agree to keep a united front on those things?

[formflier]

Is there any practical difference between a regular attending non-member and a member?

Non-members are limited in the amount of "service" they can do at the church.  Practically that is about the only thing.

For instance, a non-member could be a "helper" in a classroom (sunday school or vacation bible school) but they would never be the leader. 

For members that are interested they have a fairly extensive training program for those types of things.

Umm... .non-members don't vote on church matters.

FF

[formflier]

If I’m reading between the lines correctly, this is an environment where your wife will have greater influence than you do with the church heirarchy, and she might use this against you in ways that you will find manipulative and humiliating. For example, she might say she needs help to get her husband to be a better Christian, and there will be people who will want to give her that help. And of course, that will just make things worse. These are the dangers you fear if you join - am I wrong?
 

Very astute evaluation of the position.

I'll try to answer several other points in this one thing. 

I don't believe in a a "flexible Bible" or an "evolving Bible".  I do believe that we need to put teaching in the proper context (what was life thousands of years ago... versus now) and (what was going on in certain towns then letters were written to them)

So... .I see no reason to attempt to "modernize" the Bible based on what people can or can't do today. 

So... .when I read scripture I think you get a sense over many many verses and hundreds of years of writing that if there is a dispute in the home (Christian home) about a "religious matter" that the husband is the tiebreaker.  Husbands and wives appear to be called to different roles.  Since this teaching is applied over many years and appears consistent... .I'm reluctant to cast it aside because a female can be president.  (The scriptures have nothing to do with vocation outside the homes, it has to do with Biblical roles in a Christian marriage)

An example of something I would not hold firm with, yet would support someone that personally wants to do this is below.

There are verses that seem to indicate the clothes women can/can't wear and how they can fix their hair.  My understanding is those verses come from letters written to particular churches that were having particular problems and those "directives" were direction at the time to solve that particular problem, vice a directive to be followed for all time by all Christians everywhere.

Note:  I've not reviewed any scripture to write this post... .so hopefully my memory is holding up.

Yet... I know some people that are more comfortable following those things... .more power to them.

The church my wife wants to join does not have female deacons, yet they also don't "separate" themselves from churches that do.

I think I'll cut this post and come back in few min.

FF

[formflier]

To the point about my wife using church leaders to manipulate me or get them to be allies.

This church believes in and practices "church discipline"

So... .they find out you are having an affair, you will be privately confronted... .if you repent... it's over.

If you don't... they will bring in others (generally a group of deacons involved)... .if you repent... over.

If not... .you will be brought before the entire church and given the opportunity to defend yourself, church leaders will present their concerns... .and the church will vote to determine if you will remain a member or not.

In the past (at other churches) my wife has made accusations and got this process going, luckily the pastors figured out it was paranoia (in fact... a pastor was the first one to use that to describe my wife).  He advised her to trust the Lord to convict FF... .that convicting him wasn't her role.

She flipped out and ran away from church for a while... .then slowly came back with many different tactics to engage the army of flying monkeys from BPD land.  

So... .since leaders are involved in church discipline... .it's important they are ethical.  

The entire story (up to this point) if quite complicated... .yet to make it quick the original complaint that I took privately to the pastor was likely in the category of a misunderstanding or "mispeaking" on his part. (this is a gross simplification... but good enough)

He essentially doubled down on a ridiculous position and put various negative religious labels on me.  He said I was a sinner because I walked away from conflict and that God wanted me to stay in conflict and use my physical size to control my wife and protect her (a really odd interpretation of Jesus let others physically destroy him for the good of the church is likely where he was going)

So... .I involved others (more senior leadership... following Biblical guidance)... .and the more senior guy totally "rewrote" the allegation and then dismissed it.  (oddly enough... very BPDish way of doing things).  Like saying domestic violence was an "unkind act".  So... .if you ask forgiveness and admit to an "unkind act"... .you really missed the mark.

So... .there is an outside body that rules on ethical matters such as this because of the "biblical counseling" element.  That body has a complain process.  I complained in writing.

The pastor responded in writing... .and what he signed his name to didn't happen.  The "southern Baptist redneck" in me comes out when I say... ."He lied his azz off... ."

Funny thing... .FF has a recording of our private conversation.  He either lied to me then... .or is lying to the "investigating body" now.  It's not matter of nuance or of point of view.

That's the step I'm at now.

I've been carefully preparing my letter to the deacons of the church (that supervise the pastors)... .since what I'm accusing this pastor of now is a much more serious matter.

I try to be deliberate about not predicting the future... .but given the behavior so far... .I have to consider what if the deacons try to cover it up.

At that point... .I'm not going to keep it quiet or just shrug my shoulders and walk away.

I can't imagine I would continue attending a church that "covers up" such dishonesty.

You guys can imagine the drama that would bring about in my relationship.

Or... .there could be repentance and healing, which is what I'm hoping for... .

FF

[I Am Redeemed]

The idea of the husband as spiritual authority does not mean that he unilaterally makes decisions for the whole family without anyone's input.

It means that the husband will be the one ultimately held accountable for decisions made that affect the spiritual well being of the wife and children, negatively or positively.

It is the believing husband's job to protect his family's spiritual well being whenever possible. It does not mean that he bosses his family around or disregards anyone's right to make choices or exercise free will.

It means that he does the absolute best he can to protect his family from the enemy, who comes to "steal, kill and destroy." It means that he looks to God for guidance in all things and tries to steer the family towards decisions that ultimately honor God and are in line with His will (not just the husband's).

What I am hearing is that you, FF, are not against joining this particular church per se, since you recognize that there are great benefits such as the children's ministry that could have a positive impact on your family. Your concern stems from the attempt at Biblical marriage counseling which resulted in a question of ethics involving one of the pastors at the church, and you have brought the matter to the attention of church leaders and would like to see that situation resolved before deciding whether or not to make this church your family's permanent place of worship. Simple disagreements among churchgoers, even leaders in the church, can and will arise because we are human. However, if the ethical behavior of one of the pastors is in question, that is a heavier concern because it involves, ultimately, the ethics and judgment of the leadership of the church as a whole- which affects the body of the church. Church leaders have a responsibility to the members of the congregation and unethical behavior from a pastor is detrimental to those whom he is responsible for leading.

Since you take your responsibility to your family seriously, you want to see them in a church environment that will nurture them spiritually.

Your wife did not take your concerns with the ethical complaint seriously, and she has grown impatient with waiting for the outcome.

You wanted to discuss this matter with your wife and come to a decision together. You agreed upon a day to have this discussion, she tried to initiate the conversation at an inopportune time and you proposed to wait until bedtime when you both could focus and be comfortable with each other, not distracted by other matters such as kids, schoolwork, etc.

She once again grew impatient when you went to the gym that evening (still with plenty of time to have the conversation at the proposed -and seemingly agreed upon- time of "bedtime- which has been typically much later in the evening for her) and she nixed the possibility of having the conversation altogether by going to bed much earlier than her normal time.

I think this is a form of stonewalling. She is not interested in your concerns about the ethical complaint, she does not think it is a valid reason to postpone membership in this church, and she is not willing to work with you to come to a decision that affects your entire family (not just you or her.)

However, she has projected that onto you and made it seem like you are the one who is not taking the decision seriously, because you went to the gym instead of having the conversation about it (when the implied time of the discussion was later in the evening- loophole: "bedtime" can be "interpreted" loosely if one suddenly "decides" to go to bed two or three hours earlier than the usual time.)

Maybe she does want the social connection and sense of "belonging" that comes with joining a church, especially if it is one that your family has been attending for a while. However, she is letting that override a more pressing concern that this may not be the right church family after all, and the negative impact of that could affect your family as a whole. You see that; she doesn't. She wants what she wants, and she wants it to be okay, so she is ignoring signs that it might not be okay because if it isn't, that would mean searching for another church family and starting all over somewhere else, which is likely daunting and disappointing. Costs and benefits must be weighed, and she is apparently not really up for that task because it may lead to an undesirable outcome. She would rather downplay and deny the risks and make it seem like you are blowing something out of proportion and being hardheaded. And yes, she will likely not align herself with your reservations and instead will play up her willingness to belong to and support the church while you are holding back- even though your reasons are valid.

Whose decision would it be to accept her membership? Would it involve the pastor(s) who did the counseling with the two of you?

Redeemed

[I Am Redeemed]

Cross posted.

I can't imagine staying in a church whose pastors would give such advice to a man, first of all, or who would lie about it later as well.

That is a whole big snarly ball of yarn to unravel there. I would definitely be wary of placing membership in a church with such dubious morality.

Redeemed

[formflier]

Great post IAR

For purposes of my leadership... .I shy away from trying to "make my wife" obey.  I'm aware of some who can make somewhat convincing arguments that is proper, yet I've "found my lane" where I feel comfortable.  I use the term "give my blessing".  I try to stay consistent with use of that term.

So... .review my email to my wife... that's a very consistent use of that term for me.  I find that when I "want to be a blessing" to someone, it puts me in a frame of mind of "doing well for them" or "doing my best for them" or "wanting what's best for them" (you guys get the point).

Well... .when I withhold my blessing, it's the same as saying I've tried as hard as I can to say yes... .I I just can't get there.  I'm still open to learning more and being convinced.

It also tends to keep things away from yes/no. 

That doesn't mean I've "forbidden" my wife from taking independent action (although she may not understand that nuance)... but it does mean she takes that action without any protection whatsoever from me.

Let's say we have a disagreement about what to teach our kids.  I stand firm and she accepts my role as the tiebreaker and teaches what I give my blessing to.  Unless I'm  suggesting teaching some obvious heresy... .(such as it's always ok to lie, cheat and steal)... .then she is 100% protected and in fact would be looked up with approval by God for following his guidance.

If she blows off my blessing... .she would stand alone in judgment.

IAR  I can't imagine staying in the church like that either.  I would add... .staying in an "unrepentant" church. 

If the board of deacons takes serious action, then it would actually make me like the church more. 

Life is more about how you clean up the milk you spill, than the good things you do.  I think much more character is involved in cleaning up your own booboo.

Great post and thread... keep it up.

FF

[Notwendy]

Great post IAR.

One issue I see is that, even if you have ethical concerns about an incident, your family continues to attend that church- and as long as you do, the social ties get stronger for your family. The kids have their friends, your wife has hers there in the church. If you do decide this isn't going to work, it will be harder to change.

Still attending could also be an indirect way of consenting even if you haven't made it official as members.

If something hugely immoral was going on then I don't think you'd still be attending. I know you want to clear this matter up first. Perhaps the next move is to set a timeline with your wife  that you will contact them and clear this up as soon as possible- so she doesn't feel the wait for you is indefinite.

[formflier]

I'm an ESTJ... .and a very process oriented guy.  I try not to make sure that I don't make decisions based on what I "fear" people will do... .but what they have actually done.

The one thing that I have said hard and fast to my family... ."no blessing to seek counsel about any matter whatsoever" (or however I said it)... .I've said it several times... the gist is clear.

There is a big difference about sitting in a sanctuary and hearing a lesson or preaching about a Bible passage and going to people in private and asking "what should I do... ?"

So... .I'm not going to prejudge what the deacons will do.  I'll see.  Given the gravity of this, I'm going to make sure my letter is detailed and correct.  I'm sure there will be follow up conversations.

So... .because accuracy is more important than time... .I've not set a firm deadline.  Plus after I write I will spend some session time with my P making sure that I am "not to close" to the situation an making a logical, accurate  accusation... .vice a pissed off one.

OBTW... .my P has spent about an hour with this particular pastor.  She believes he has some personal animus against me and she believes he is a dangerous counselor.  Rarely have I ever seen her so animated.  She normally goes out of her way to "assume the best" about people.

FF

[Fian]

FF, I tend to agree with you about your interpretation about Biblical authority of a man, although I might take it slightly further.  One thing to consider.  The senior pastor was not a part of your counseling, so anything he reported was what he was told by the counseling pastor.  Is it possible, he was misled on what happened?

[AskingWhy]

To the point about my wife using church leaders to manipulate me or get them to be allies.

FF,  this is a classic technique of pwBPD.  They have the ability to twist reality to others outside the R/S.  I had this happen years ago in marriage counseling.  (BTW, couples counseling is not recommended in instances of abuse, such as that with a BPD partner.)  

There was so much tension with my uBPD H and me that, in tears, I called to make an appointment with a T, an LCSW.  I met with her alone, and in that hour, she was offering the name of a divorce lawyer.  After H's private hou with her, she was eating out of his hand.  In the couples session, she castigated me, inferring that I was a horrible wife.  She stood up--in session--shook her finger at me and ordered, "If you don't stop your behaviour, you are going to lose this man who loves you!"

This is the extent that BPDs will manipulate those outside the R/S.  If a BPD can manipulate a mental health professional, it is very conceivable for them to manipulate church leaders.  

In my experience, H will easily try to form a bond with others when we are together.  In the presence of his children, he immediately casts me in the role of "outsider."  Over a holiday meal, H was almost "drunk" in the presence of his adult D, subtly poking "fun" at me for my clothing and what I had chosen not to eat.  It was almost juvenile, like a "mean" child in a schoolyard looking to curry favor by poking fun at someone and asking others to look on.  My H is a very insecure man.  In one instance, when we worked in the same area, I had asked a coworker to lunch with H and me.  Both were retired military.  H immediately formed a bond with the man "against" me.  H was poking fun at me for my wariness in an area of town that I was unfamiliar with.

My H professes to be a very religious man, but when it's convenient, or when his shallow ego needs a boost, he will insult and hurt his wife to his advantage.  

I have mentioned this before, my pwBPD are chameleons.  

 

[empath]

He said I was a sinner because I walked away from conflict and that God wanted me to stay in conflict and use my physical size to control my wife and protect her... .

There is a big difference about sitting in a sanctuary and hearing a lesson or preaching about a Bible passage and going to people in private and asking "what should I do... ?"

Personally, I think it is very important that the person teaching or preaching acts in a way that is consistent with Biblical teaching whether they are up front or in an office. I was just reading an article on the use of "worldly" leadership models in the church -- lording it over others is something that goes against the direct teaching of Jesus and Paul. Using physical size or force to make a spouse do something is one way that this could play out. If their model for leadership includes the idea that leaders should coerce followers into following, it is not a "good" church regardless of their execution of the children's program. If membership includes a "covenant" that one has to sign, there are more good reasons to be concerned.

In the past few years, I have personally seen the disastrous effects of this type of leadership model in my family and in the lives of some of my friends and the churches involved. I've also read many, many articles about the broader evangelical community and pastors who have abused their power. I put this kind of thing into the "immoral" category.

H chose this church because they were easily swayed to give him what he wanted. My h was able to manipulate the leaders at his church, triangulating them against me; they became his "flying monkeys". They were telling him what to do about our marriage - that he needed to "make" me do things. Eventually, the pastor had to leave because he was abusing the congregation. They were "probably not Christians" according to the pastor because they weren't doing what he thought they ought to do.

I stayed at his church longer than I should have, and my daughters stayed much longer than they should have. My older daughter struggled with the hypocrisy that she was seeing in her dad and the horrible teaching of the senior pastor. She no longer attends church, but she was also an adult at the time of all this. My younger daughter appreciates the pastor and church that she and I are attending now.

FF W has manipulated the church before... . 

[I Am Redeemed]

I would be less worried right now about possible manipulation and BPD game playing and more focused on the next move in the chess game by the deacons... .

You are right, FF, people make mistakes because "to err is human". But the character of a person can be measured more by how one behaves once a mistake or wrong has been done.

IMHO, unrepentant hearts have either ignored the conviction of the holy spirit or have not entered into a relationship with Him in the first place in order to have the fellowship necessary for that to happen... .in either case, not a good sign when one is a church leader.

Redeemed

[formflier]

  Is it possible, he was misled on what happened?

It is possible, however it seems unlikely.  Given the full facts of the case you would have to be extremely charitable for the senior pastor's actions to be chalked up to "misleading" or "confused" or "misinformed"... etc etc.

It is possible.

I'm not sure exactly how many pastors are at the church... a lot.  15-20... perhaps more. 

My BC was the number 2 pastor.  It appears to me that senior pastor is covering for his number 2 guy.  Certainly he isn't/wasn't interested in getting a clear explanation of what actually happened.

It's a long... complicated story.  Countering their written testimony, which I believe is purposefully deceptive (I'm positive... 100% positive the number 2 guys testimony is a lie or his conversation with me was a lie).  For the senior guy... .I'm in the 80 to 90% range.

Sadly... .most churches initial response to misbehavior is cover up... .vice "practice what they preach".  They also will tend to try to shoot the messenger.

I'm not "looking for a fight"... .yet you guys know me.  Anyone think I will shrink from telling the truth?... .no matter who gets uncomfortable?

Good questions...

FF

[formflier]

In the past few years, I have personally seen the disastrous effects of this type of leadership model in my family and in the lives of some of my friends and the churches involved. I've also read many, many articles about the broader evangelical community and pastors who have abused their power. I put this kind of thing into the "immoral" category.
 

So... .FF and decision making. 

It's very possible that I could end up thinking the entire thing, deacons and all are "immoral" based on how they respond.  I hope not... .yet we've all seen these scandals play out.

I'll also say that I have a hard time imagining how this could play out so that I would ever feel comfortable joining.  Yes... they have some sort of covenant and honestly... .I've thought about how I would go about things... .should we ever get to "reconciliation.

If they insisted I sign to join... I'm certain I would draft my own covenant with them about truthfulness... .and other matters. 

Yeah... .all a mess.

Yet... .FF is a guy that doesn't walk about in the middle of things.  Let things play out.

Sigh...

FF

[empath]

They probably wouldn't let you just draft your own covenant... .  gotta submit to their model and their discipline... . 

I hear you on not walking out... .  any chance that they would strongly suggest that you worship somewhere else?

[formflier]

It's "possible" to "very likely" they would suggest this.  I would demand they put it in writing... .with their reasoning.

The issue is this is a voting body... .I personally know some of the deacons and deem them to be good, honest, moral Christians. 

Thing is... they know me too...   While I think I have a reputation as a friendly guy I also have a reputation as someone that stands firm on important principles.

So... .if there is any hint of covering this up... .I'll go outside the church so people in the community have accurate information about the dangers of "submitting" to counsel there.

Ugg... .I just need to work on getting my letter done and make sure it is accurate and not think to far ahead on this thing.

Sigh...

FF

[I Am Redeemed]

Was your wife not offended by that crazy "advice" this pastor gave you?

I would hate to think what would happen if a woman experiencing domestic violence in her marriage came to this person for help.

Did you file the complaint on behalf of both of you?

I think you are taking a measured approach to this versus acting on emotions, and that's good.

Has anyone else complained or had issues with this pastor before?

Redeemed

[formflier]

Was your wife not offended by that crazy "advice" this pastor gave you?

I would hate to think what would happen if a woman experiencing domestic violence in her marriage came to this person for help.

Did you file the complaint on behalf of both of you?

I think you are taking a measured approach to this versus acting on emotions, and that's good.

Has anyone else complained or had issues with this pastor before?

Redeemed

I have no idea if complaints have been filed on the church or any of these guys before.

My wife thinks and has expressed the counseling was ethical and wanted no part of filing it.  She wants more of what she got there before.  When she is being "thoughtful" she might allow "he shouldn't have said that"... .but it is obvious he didn't mean it.

My wife agreed I was a sinner for leaving conflict and expressed it many times when I left conflict... .expressing "biblical" support for her assertions... based on the pastor's judgement.  After he asked her forgiveness she refused to discuss it further.

She also believes I'm sinning by "bringing up a forgiven issue".

FF

[formflier]

We rarely discuss the counseling experience or the ethics complaint.  I don't avoid it, yet I make sure if it comes up that when I do mention it... it's "comprehensive".

So... .a time or two she has said she would like to return to counseling so I pick up the phone and offer to call my P to which she rolls her eyes and says some derisive.

She will "only" go to this churches counselors accredited by the national organization. 

I've state I won't give my blessing to anyone in my family going to anything other than an ethical counselor that is a board certified and licensed mental care provider.  (no attempt to soft sell)

She appreciates the standoff and I suspect she understands deep down "her side" or "her view" is in trouble.  Mostly she does the bury her head in the sand tactic.

Big picture.  I pray with my wife over meals and occasionally have the most "surfacey" "religious conversations".  It's sad... .I miss what we used to have.

Oddly enough... .the less "God" and "religiuous" talk there is the more stable and I would even say "friendlier" our relationship is.

I try to focus on finding happiness or "contentment" with what is on the table and can actually happen, vice trying to turn my wife into something she clearly isn't anymore.

Perhaps she tried a different tactic to "get me back to counseling" a couple mornings ago... .or perhaps she just wanted to talk.  It was the most open and intimate talk about feelings she has had in a long time.  She vaguely mentioned mistakes she made around the time of counseling, made mention of how attractive I was to her when I was "pursuing God"... .and then the shocker was that she asked me to forgive her.

I haven't any idea what she was asking about (in any specific way), so I said "Of course I can forgive you... let's focus on building a better future together, because that's what we can change.  The past is behind us."

I have no idea how to "productively" say/ask... ."I have no idea what exactly you are talking about." and my guess is she realizes there is so much material to pick from.


Sigh... .

FF