POLL | Understanding the spectrum. How does this play in to how we feel?

[JNChell]

Many of us have read about and become familiar with how BPD is a spectrum disorder. It resides on a sliding scale, so to speak. It’s obvious in reading the testimonies here that some members have unfortunately seen more than others. A current hot topic has been about whether or not our exes are aware of their behaviors. It’s been gracefully argued. I’m left with the thought that it comes down to where the individual is on the spectrum. Keep in mind that Cluster B’s are “clustered” and that comorbity is a possibility. There is also A & C clusters to consider, along with anxiety disorders, depression and avoidant personalities. A lot of this can look very similar. Regardless, it’s behavior that brought us here unless the rarity of a diagnosis is there.

On a scale of 1-10, where do you rate your exes symptoms? Obviously, none of us can diagnose, but we’re aware of what landed us here. In what you’ve learned while being here, is your personal opinion that your individual is diagnosable, if not already diagnosed? That’s a rarity. Do you feel like you participated in the dynamic in ways that you wish you wouldn’t have upon looking back?

[joel050283]

This is a great topic.  I have heard and read about so many different behaviors and levels of functioning.
In my experience I dated a diagnosed PWBPD.  She was quiet and didn't rage, so it was well hidden. 

But on the scale she would be closer to the 10, could not function in life.  Couldn't hold a job down, or live on her own, would move in with people she met on the internet after one date. 

I felt at the end of it I enabled it, when she would randomly break up with me, move to another city over night with some guy , and in 2 weeks I would always be the one to go rescue her.  I thought she needed stability so we moved in together, until the cycle repeated again, and I was painted black.  I am the devil in her eyes now, even though we never had a blow out or fight or any altercation before the split.

The part of the dynamic I regret was being her rescue hero when her actions deeply damaged me, thinking I could invoke the change in her.

[Mutt]

I’m left with the thought that it comes down to where the individual is on the spectrum.

What about the person though too?  What I mean is that there's confusion with who our expwBPD was, when the traits are more apparent than when it was when you first met some people ask themselves if that's the real person. Was he or she real? Was it all a fantasy? Yes BPD is a spectrum disorder with 256 different combination of symptoms but you have different people, from different walks of life, personalities, ages etc...

I'd rate my exuBPDw pretty high, she can hold down a job but can get herself in difficult situations at work and wants to quit because she lacks good r/s skills and is tone deaf when it comes to other people's needs.

On the side of that she can be a thoughtful and compassionate person, not in a manipulative way but in a genuine way, she can go through periods where she's stable for weeks and then there are longer periods where she's unstable. I remember stating on the boards once that my exuBPDw had no empathy for what she put me through, there was a shred of it there that was pointed out by another member, the member said at least she displayed some empathy.

I'm not trying to invalidate anyone's experience, not at all because I'm 100% behind being able to say what you think and feel without being judged, I leave judgement to god. I just speak for myself when I say this but that comment that the member said rang true for me and made me realize that there's always someone that had it worst than me.

I remember what one of my T said he said that she has a mental illness of some sort, he can't diagnose her, she's not there and she's not qualified this was a session for me after we split up.

I was adamant about her having BPD now I don't really care, I do in one way because of the traits and knowing how to deal with the difficult behaviour but there was a time that I felt like I had to convince others. A mental illness of some sort is good enough for me, people that are close to me know that there's something not right with her that's without my input her dysfunctions and poor r/s skills speak for themselves.

I think what is important for me is attracting people that have healthier r/s skills than people that I attracted in the past, friends and people that I had romantic r/s's with. I can say that with the help of bpdfamily, supportive family members ( the select few ) the support network that I built after the split the people that I replaced real family members with as my own family and counsellors etc. I've managed to attract people that have healthier r/s skills than what I have in the past.

[JNChell]

Hi, Mutt. You bring up very good points.

What about the person though too?  What I mean is that there's confusion with who our expwBPD was, when the traits are more apparent than when it was when you first met some people ask themselves if that's the real person. Was he or she real? Was it all a fantasy? Yes BPD is a spectrum disorder with 256 different combination of symptoms but you have different people, from different walks of life, personalities, ages etc...

I’ve been thinking about this lately. I’ve seen her from my own personal POV. I’ve seen her through the scope of my own stuff. Someone else will likely see her quite differently. The factors. Variables. We all bring something to the table.

It’s hard to see S4’s mom in a positive light much of the time. She lied and she took from me in forceful ways when I was weak. Looking back, it feels like it was some kind of floating plan.

On the side of that she can be a thoughtful and compassionate person, not in a manipulative way but in a genuine way, she can go through periods where she's stable for weeks and then there are longer periods where she's unstable.

This is how we held on. This is how they knew we would.

I think what is important for me is attracting people that have healthier r/s skills than people that I attracted in the past, friends and people that I had romantic r/s's with.

Yes. Keeping and inviting healthy people into our lives when we’re ready. You’re much farther along than I am. It’s weird to be so curious of things that I was once used to.

[Purplex]

Interesting poll. I thought about this topic a lot since I joined this board, because I noticed that my partner doesn't show a lot of the behaviors so many others here experience, but is struggeling in areas that seem to be no real issue for most of you.
In the two years I know him, he never really got agressive towards me, neither verbally nor physically and actually puts a lot of effort into treating others fairly and respectfully. I think this has a lot to do with him feeling guilty and shameful when others don't like him or are angry with him, so he avoids upsetting people at all cost. He also uses weed to self medicate on a daily basis, this probably helps to tone down any possible aggression as well. He is very sensitive to rejection and if that happens, things can get overly dramatic from an outside perspective. But in my opinion, his reactions are still acceptable and he is very invested in solving those situations. He doesn't really devalue either and I'm not sure about idealizing. I think he gets crushes pretty easily, but it takes a lot to make him hate you.
He checks all the other boxes though, fear of abandonment, unstable self image, impulsivity, self-mutilating behavior(in the past), affective instability, feelings of emptiness and dissociation.
And he is struggling with basic life fuctions, days of not eating anything, unability to leave the house or do chores. Working 10-15 hours a week gets him to his limits. I'm inclined to think that this might be more related to his depression then his BPD though.

He is also very self aware and has a good sense of whats going on with him most of the time.
I would put him at a 9 or 10, but since we are still working on our relationship I don't know if I'm allowed to participate 
 

[Mutt]

I’ve been thinking about this lately. I’ve seen her from my own personal POV. I’ve seen her through the scope of my own stuff. Someone else will likely see her quite differently. The factors. Variables. We all bring something to the table.

I agree with you that has been a lot of good discussions lately. These are good questions, there are a lot of moving parts and there is no easy answer or there are no hard and fast rules. You said that I was further along then you were this is good insight I just wanted to add that you feel different about your expwBPD throughout different stages. Now, I speak for myself when I say this I had an ego wound at the beginning when she left and I was really angry and I felt differently as time went on you probably felt differently about her when you met her, as you do know as you will in the future.

This is how we held on. This is how they knew we would.

I mentioned the ego and I recall when I first met my exuBPDw or really early on I should say and she was a single mom with a D4 at the time maybe 5 and there was a part of that felt like a savior like I wanted to take care of this person and this is just from her telling that she's a single mom that went right to my ego and that could of come from anyone.

Now this was 7 years ago or so now I've been with my current gf for about a year and a half and she has a S5 and I made sure this time going in that I wasn't going to rescue, there could be cultural differences at play here but she said you don't care about S5. Maybe I went too far the other way, I do care about her son but I wasn't going to swoop in and save her plus how many people my age don't have kids?

Obviously some of the behaviours elicit guilty feelings in other people, a pwBPD have dependency issues and for a person like me that likes to take care of others or help others that is going to illict those needs is it something that I think that is premedidated - no is something intentional I'm sure that it is some times I do think thought that some pwBPD are not aware of their actions just like some non's and people with different types of mental illnesses have little to no self awareness.

I think that my exuBPDw acts impusilvely and does things to survive I was a good provider and the person that she left 4 never worked full time the entire time that they were together she didn't send my D13 back because she wanted full custody and that raises her child support it's a desperate move that is manipulative as well did she think this through no I think that it's a desperate move but she's trying to survive I'm upset with her because of how her actions interferes with my r/s's with others but know the motivation didn't upset me so much that I was stuck in anger and it affected me in court the judge could see that I was really attached and not seeing the bigger picture that's one scenario it's not what happened this past year. Just keep in my mind that my ex is not a baseline for BPD and the same with my situation.

Anger is natural it helps with detaching from unhealthy r/s's and you I think that it helps with keeping things in check I can feel angry at her but I don't want it to interfer with my day to day life after the split because I don't want to be attached to her. As you pointed out I'm at a completely different stage than most members.

[JNChell]

Hey, Purplex. This poll is opinion based, and a kind person made it a real poll, but never mind that. A 9 or 10 BPD is a violent person. I’m not sure that we’re on the same level here. 9-10’s aren’t self aware. Do we have our numbers mixed? 1-2’s being the worst?

[JNChell]

Sorry. 1 being better, 10 being not good.

[Skip]

This is your scale. 

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10

Traits only (low severity)     Traits only (medium severity)    -          Traits only (high severity)     Qualifies for clinical Dx (has had severe episodes in life)     Qualifies for clinical Dx (struggles with basic life functions)     High (eligible for disability)

[Purplex]

A 9 or 10 BPD is a violent person. I’m not sure that we’re on the same level here. 9-10’s aren’t self aware.

Well that's kind of what I'm not sure about. According to the poll descriptions my pwBPD should fall into the worst category. He is diagnosed and low functioning. He could apply for disability without issues, but didn't yet because he is hoping to recover.
But he lacks the violent traits, at least those directed outward (he has scars all over his arms and legs).
And I guess his self awareness stems from years of therapy.

[Skip]

A 9 or 10 BPD is a violent person.

The spectrum of BPD is not a violence scale, JNChell. It's a scale of dysfunction.

[once removed]

i voted 4.

my ex has no eating disorder, does not cut, has had no suicidal gestures that i know of.

her impulsivity is mostly limited to acting out when shes dysregulated, not to dangerous activities like unsafe driving or substance abuse (she has abused substances in her life), or otherwise an unsafe way of life. you could say shes promiscuous, and in some ways not safe in that regard.

when we are talking about the more severe end of the spectrum, those are usually three traits a person has, and to severe degrees.

she has four traits i might say are medium, maybe a little more at times, and consistent throughout her life (frantic efforts to avoid abandonment, pattern of intense/unstable characterized by extreme idealization/devaluation, intense and inappropriate anger as well as difficulty controlling it, and chronic feelings of emptiness).

in the movie Back From the Edge (https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=117774.0), a person diagnosed with BPD wrote her best friend a letter written in her own blood begging her not to leave. that would be a more severe example of a frantic effort to avoid abandonment, more than i ever saw.

she can be chameleon like, and desperately try to fit in. "identity disturbance" or "markedly disturbed self image" would be far too strong of language. by and large, she has always been the same person. she has low self esteem and doesnt much like herself, and at times struggles with a sense of who she is; not quite the same thing or at least not on a severe level.

she is diagnosed with bipolar disorder, and does display anxious and depressive symptoms, even manic ones, on and off; more episodic than long term.

i might have seen a couple of times what i would describe as "stress related paranoid ideation", or i might be stretching it. she described one or two dissociative episodes in her life, or they might have been major depressive episodes.

the person i am describing is someone whom, mostly, is just a very difficult person in romantic relationships. a very jealous and distrusting person, an often unreasonable person, who has major difficulty regulating her emotions and is easily flooded. she can be vindictive either in that state, or when she feels someone has wronged or judged her. she struggles in closer friendships, because she smothers close friends with neediness and too much contact, can be super condescending toward them when shes in the mood, and/or winds up blowing up at them or worse. she has struggled to keep a job for a long period of time (6 months to a year) and often gives up on her goals or becomes distracted away from them.

she struggles a lot, and i suspect always will; she also hurt me a lot and many times, but those things dont qualify her for the more severe end of the BPD spectrum.

[Al Kaseltzer]

I voted a 4 as well.  i think there was certainly enough going on and enough traits but as more time has gone on and from reading stories on here from others, it was so much less traumatic compared to others.  there was no cutting, no suicide threats, no physical assaults, etc.  it was just an ongoing series of behaviors that made me feel like i was going insane and often hard to make sense of.

its hard when its somewhere in the middle, because if it were to be on the high end like a 9 or a 10, id feel as if whats going on is crystal clear, there's no hope, and there is seriously no way to ever have a functional relationship.  i think having them fall in the middle leaves me feeling unsatisfied in a way, like not everything can be pinned on a disorder or something.  it makes me take more ownership in things not working out.  it feels like there was enough there to make everything more difficult than it needed to be, but had i done a better job as a partner, it may have been able to work.  that part is still hard to deal with.

[Purplex]

its hard when its somewhere in the middle, because if it were to be on the high end like a 9 or a 10, id feel as if whats going on is crystal clear, there's no hope, and there is seriously no way to ever have a functional relationship.

I don't think this is true in all cases. From my experience the most important factor influencing their ability to have a functional relationship, is the willingness to deal with their problems in a healty way and the ability to self-reflect. And commitment to therapy plays a big part in that. People high on the spectrum might even have an advantage here, because their BPD often gets diagnosed at a very young age and they are so low functioning, that therapy is indespensable and they are kind of forced to adress their problems. Simply because they would not be able to survive otherwise.
People lower on the spectrum can fly under the radar for a long time, so once they realize that they have ongoing issues in relationships, its harder to see and acknowledge their own shortcomings, because they already learned a lot of unhealty coping mechanisms that seem normal to them. And this also makes it harder to see therapy as a viable option.

Reference: I had two relationships with a pwBPD. Both were low functioning but one was commited to therapy the other wasn't. It makes a big difference in my eyes. The second one is still relavant though, so my opinion might of course be biased by that. 
 

[JNChell]

Thanks for straightening me out on this, Skip.

[gotbushels]

JNChell  

I think this is a good poll. It helps to focus us as nons on specifics of just how disordered the given partner is. When we get specific, it allows us to take the perspective that yes the pwBPD was obviously mentally disabled in this particular area, however, yes they were highly functional in other areas. The value of that is that we get a broader and more accurate view of what our ex's nonsenses are and what are own nonsenses are.  

I think it's easy to label the ex as BPD when we've gone through something like abuse, then that great unpleasantness we feel is then attributed to them and the relationship as the cause--at least in our own minds. That's something I think is important for us to guard against. Of course, we don't want to backslide into excessive sympathy such that we get re-triangulated into the relationship--but I think that's not something members would struggle with when detached enough.

As an example, I loved to ruminate at how horrifically disloyal my ex was (that cheating  :cursing. Yet, I still have some positive appraisal papers from the company she worked at. How is it this person can maintain a period of above average performance at a reputable company, yet return home and go fisticuffs with her spouse? Of course, we know now that counterintuitive thing about BPD is that a high-functioning one can easily check that box--but what was I doing that contributed to that preexisting BPD behaviour?

Good poll.    For my ex--I think she'd probably have been at the 8-9 area. She had some dx before anyway, some functional issues, but could probably still settle some criteria higher on the GAF.

[JNChell]

Purplex, I apologize for the inaccurate and generalized opinion that I gave about the score that you’ve indicated. I’m glad that Skip stepped in and cleared that up.

The differentiation you make between pwBPD being high or low on the spectrum is interesting and it makes sense. This makes me think about the child board. There are a lot of examples of young people that are high on the spectrum. You all should definitely do some reading over there, and if inclined, get involved in the threads. The posters on that board are incredibly strong people. They’re parents of children wBPD. It’s been quite awakening to see their perspective and relate it to my own situation.

[JNChell]

 joel050283.

The part of the dynamic I regret was being her rescue hero when her actions deeply damaged me, thinking I could invoke the change in her.

Man, this really hits home. I totally get it. It resonates with so many of the members here. The need to want to fix/restore and make better what is broken or damaged. This can be a strong focal point to work from when making steps on figuring out “why”. Have you thought about this at all? Why do we do this? Thanks for contributing to the poll. 

[JNChell]

Hey, Mutt.

there are a lot of moving parts and there is no easy answer or there are no hard and fast rules.

So true. Along the way, I’ve been trying to narrow it down to a point that is understandable to me. A low altitude vision. As you said, there is too much going on here to try to skew it into a place that is understood by me. A place that I want to see it from. It’s not my choice, nor am I capable of making that happen. It’ll just keep me stuck as it has. It’s easier to see all of the moving parts from a higher altitude. Broadening my thoughts and seeing/accepting things for what they are. This has been a very tough step to take.

Will you please talk more about the ego wound? I felt
emasculated at the end. I still do to a certain extent.

My ex was a single mom too. I dove right in as a savior. I met her in early Fall. When Christmas time came around I dropped a lot money to make sure she could give her daughter a good holiday. It doesn’t seem like any of that is remembered. She only sees bad in me. She doesn’t see anything good. I think I’m a bit stuck here. A big part of me still wants her to see the good in me, but she refuses to and it hurts.

How did you know when you were finally in the clear of all of this rumination and confusion? How did you get there?

[JNChell]

Glad you chimed in, once removed. I gave a 5. A lot of what you describe is very similar. S4’s mom is a cutter, but it’s not severe. She doesn’t have scars all over her body. She did most of her bloodletting while shaving her legs. Tiny cuts. She admitted this to me and our couples counselor. There was one very visible cut across her wrist at one point. I just held her. Our couples counselor blamed me for her cutting.

To the best of my knowledge, my ex is dx with anxiety and depression. She’s told me this. She has told me herself, post relationship, that she can’t be alone. She’s dishonest and not loyal. She’s very entitled and I believe that she lacks a stable sense of who she is.

[Purplex]

No need to apologize JNChell. I can see where you are coming from. We all dealt (or still deal) with the same basic issue, a pwBPD in our lives. However, people are different and symptoms manifest in different ways. It's no surprise that our experiences differ as well. I know that mine is not very characteristic for this site. Because of that, I felt like it could contribute an important piece to the bigger picture.

Our couples counselor blamed me for her cutting.

Wow. This is so terrible and unprofessional!

[JNChell]

Hey, Al. I think I get what you’re saying. The middle of the spectrum can look like a gray area in a way. Never really understanding the bad because the good was so good. We desire the good, so our psyche focused on the good.

had i done a better job as a partner, it may have been able to work.  that part is still hard to deal with.

I still struggle with this daily a year and three months out. I can’t cut her out of my life like I wish I could because we share a young child. Al, do you ever wonder if doing things differently to make it work may have violated your values and virtues? Looking back, in your view, what do you think would’ve made it work with her?

[JNChell]

Hi, gotbushels.  Back atchya!

we get a broader and more accurate view of what our ex's nonsenses are and what are own nonsenses are.

Yes, and yes. The more that I look inward, the better I’m able to understand which is helping me to feel a bit better. I gave my situation a 5. Not severe. Stepping outside of it and seeing myself with a presumed 5 and me with C-PTSD is a no brainer. The whole thing was toxic. Not just her. I played my part. Like Al Kaseltzer stated, I often wish that I could’ve done things differently like tackling my issues earlier in life. Maybe I could’ve been more impactful for her and things would’ve worked out better. Who knows. I can’t fix the past.

As always, thanks, GB.

[JNChell]

Hey, Purplex. Our therapist didn’t outwardly blame me. It was like this. We saw the “therapist” separately for a while before seeing her as a couple. During one of my individual sessions she said that “ex told her X,Y and Z. Do you know that she’s cutting herself?” It was said with contempt. I’m still confused over it and wonder if I was the reason why. S4’s mom had told me that she cut herself in the past but didn’t do that anymore. Well, she did while with me. What did I trigger?

[Skip]

She did most of her bloodletting while shaving her legs. Tiny cuts. She admitted this to me and our couples counselor. There was one very visible cut across her wrist at one point. I just held her. Our couples counselor blamed me for her cutting.

JNChell, what was actually said?

[JNChell]

Skip, when I read your question, I immediately burst into to tears.

I don’t remember everything, but I do remember invalidating her in a huge way. She was going to school towards the end of our final break. Looking back, my trust towards her was completely gone. She talked very highly of one of her prof’s constantly. After she returned one evening from her classes she told me how well she did on her assignment and how her prof complimented her. My response was “what did you do to get that?”

You know, I could throw in a plethora of excuses as to why I said that, but those don’t matter. I hurt her with that and I completely took the wind out of her sail.

[Skip]

We all have said and done things we regret, JNChell.  Its good that you see that that type of thing can be hurtful.

I suspect (pure speculation) that the therapist was not blaming you for the cutting, but rather he was saying that your actions hurt her (and she coped by cutting). It would be easy to conflate those ideas.

It sound like you understand what he was saying on a deep level, now. You are doing the work. Keep pushing through.

[Al Kaseltzer]

Hey, Al. I think I get what you’re saying. The middle of the spectrum can look like a gray area in a way. Never really understanding the bad because the good was so good. We desire the good, so our psyche focused on the good.

had i done a better job as a partner, it may have been able to work.  that part is still hard to deal with.

I still struggle with this daily a year and three months out. I can’t cut her out of my life like I wish I could because we share a young child. Al, do you ever wonder if doing things differently to make it work may have violated your values and virtues? Looking back, in your view, what do you think would’ve made it work with her?

going over this stuff is tough because it always brings on so much cognitive dissonance. because, no, not everything was significant enough that it would challenge my values. sometimes i think simple things like doing more fun things together would have made a difference, but in reality it may have only prolonged things for a little bit longer.

i dont know that anything would have made it work, i just wish i knew enough to at least try with a different approach and see what happened.  i look back at the last real argument we had which was over something fairly insignificant and i just reacted to everything she said.  she was mean and hurtful so i reacted by getting annoyed and upset, and just made things worse.  but looking back, id have done it differently, id have diffused it, and ended the argument.  its a delicate thing to balance, because it is hard to have to do that every single time and for me, the stress and fear that the relationship was going to fall apart every time something came up really took its toll on me.

[JNChell]

Skip. You know, maybe she was blaming me, maybe she wasn’t. I’m certain that she was, but that doesn’t matter now. I didn’t know how to handle the cutting. I have my own stuff that is reactive. How could I? I didn’t know about my stuff at the time. Taking responsibility for her cutting herself is pretty overwhelming.

[Skip]

You know, maybe she was blaming me

Sure. It would be very easy for her to conflate "you were mean and hurtful" and "I cut myself to cope" and therefore you caused me to cut myself. It probably was her saying this that you remember, not the therapist saying it.  

I would really encourage you both to become students of the tools here. I have used them and they worked - I got one rocky relationship to a very stable place. Its a little like learning to golf or ski, the tools take skill to be effective, but the tools work.

I'm not in that relationship anymore. What was even more interesting is that when the drama was lifted from the relationship for a while, I saw that it was not going to be a strong, mutually rewarding, growth relationship. My partner had much less interest in building the type of relationship I wanted. We were simply another "almost there" relationship - we looked good sitting in a restaurant - we looked good on paper - she had a lot going for her. But fantatstic relationships don't come easy or often and this wasn't going to be one of them. So I gracefully and respectfully exited. I'm in that relationship I was seeking now. I use the tools all the time. It had brought incredible harmony to both of our lives. We have zero drama and a lot of fun.

I think its natural to look back and say "man, if only I had done ______". The fact is, had you acted different, the relationship may have been very different. We are as much an influence to the relationship as our partner. But even at that, it may not have been the relationship we are seeking.

I've personally come to look at relationships like chapters in a book or seasons in a year. They are part of our journey. We can hold the good memories and be thankful. We can embrace the lessons and carry them into the next relationship.

The sad thing, is that many of us embrace the baggage and escape into another relationship. One important lesson to learn now is to not do that.