My Non Father revisited

[Harri]

Hi.  As usual I am not sure where I am going.  When I write a personal thread I have a general topic but never really have an outline and sort of figure things out as I go so this might not make sense... .or it might.  We'll see.

I have been thinking and dreaming of my father a lot.  Certain memories and sensations flash.  Some emotions regarding my father are coming back.  He has been such a non-entity for so long now that I am both excited and wary of what is to come now with this part of my healing.  Nothing bad or at least nothing new as far as I know.  If anything is bad or new it will be a surprise for sure.  You can get an idea of my history with my dad here:  My non father

For those who don't want to read the old thread and do not know my history, my dad was my non -parent but I use the word non strictly in the sense that he did not have the label or the typical behaviors associated with BPD (which is really all non means... .it does not in any way imply healthy).  He was not the better or healthier parent.  Not by a long shot.  I don't know what he was in terms of a diagnosis.  He is dead now (died 2009) and I am okay with that.

Anyway, I've been having dreams of him lately.  Last night I was living in a college dorm but I was my current age (weird) and my dad came to visit with my grandmother, a sister (I do not have one in real life) and my brother was there but I never saw him.  He was off doing something else.  So my father had alzheimer's, pretty mild before he died but in the dream he was bad and needed 24/7 watching.  In the dream I was worried and protective of him.  Making sure people were caring for him, chasing him around when they lost sight of him, keeping him with me when I could, even wanting him near me.  I woke up frantic when I was sitting next to him on the couch holding him to my side, gently hugging his arm and feeling warm content and loving towards him.

I find it disturbing and sad all at the same time.  I am getting flashes of being little and enjoying him, being his shadow and looking at him thinking he was the most handsome guy in the world with his polyester leisure suit and paisley polyester shirt with a huge collar (hahaha... .70's!).  He had these amazing deep blue eyes that I used to love looking at.  He used to sit on the couch and I would sit on his foot and he would swing me.  He was 6'3" and my giant and gentle hero.  I remember him picking me up sometimes.  I remember him patiently setting me up with a wood working bench of my own in the basement so I would not feel left out when my brother got one (and of course I wanted one too because I worshipped my brother).

All these sorts of memories, pleasant ones have been intruding.  Like I said above, nothing bad.  I can feel some more compassion stirring in me and maybe even some love surfacing after angrily denying it and suppressing it for so long.  I have been mostly numb about him for a long time now, decades.  He was not significant to me or so I thought.

But he was also dad and daddy to me and I loved him as a kid.  He was not always a weak, pathetic and ineffectual jerk.  Yep, sounds harsh but that is how I saw him for a long time.  Still do but I think i am ready to try to reconcile the two or maybe just work on my daddy issues now.  Things like why did he give up on me?   why couldn't he protect me better?  Why wasn't he horrified at what my mom would do with him just sitting there watching?  Why did he think he was the target and we (my brother and I) were safe if he was not there (he worked a lot!)  or maybe I am being too generous there in assuming he even thought about that at all and rather he was just a cruel person who left his kids to take the brunt of my mothers rage?  Can a person really be that selfish?  Or that clueless about human nature and mental illness and how it works?

I understand all the generational excuses and explanations and I can even apply them intellectually but my questions are more emotional.  My processing will have to be done on an emotional level too.

Could it be that my dad was simply extremely co-dependent?  I have heard it said that co-dependency is inverted narcissism.  I don't see co-d as being better than or a lesser disorder than BPD and never have.  It is insidious, all consuming and pervasive and quite damaging for all parties involved.   

Or is the anger I still feel towards my father coloring my view of co-dependency?

I can't tell yet.

Okay, I got off track there a bit.

I'll be back and hopefully have more to add.

[zachira]

You are in a safe place now and can examine your relationship with your father. Surely you have/will uncover some things that are/will be uncomfortable, yet there are/will perhaps be some positive things you were unable to see before because of all the overwhelming emotions and disturbing events at home. Your mother is no longer here to cover up your feelings for your father. Do you think your mother was competing with you for your father's attention? How did you learn to be the kind of person you are today, and what do you think were the positive influences that your father had on you, if any?

[JNChell]

Harri, for the most part, that is a very sweet story. You remember the good stuff. I wish that I could do that. You also mention the bad. How he didn’t protect you. He should have. He should’ve taken you out of that situation. You mention codependency. I imagine that played a part. I also imagine that culture did. Divorce was taboo at one time. I think that it’s reached the other extreme now, but maybe he was being a “man”. I’m not minimizing your feelings one bit. I have your back. You’ll never really know, Harri. You can speculate which is good to an extent. I have questions that I shouldn’t have. As a family unit, it should’ve been open. I don’t want S4 to be left with questions about me when I die. Know what I mean?

Are you feeling anger and resentment or other feelings for your dad? Do you feel haunted by your dreams? I often have dreams where I’m my current age and I’m in an adolescent situation. High school football games is a big one. Football was a big emotional outlet for me. I was able to take my aggression out on the field. Unfortunately my aggression was taken out on other boys, but it was governed by rules.

My grandma had Alzheimer’s. You’re further along the healing path than I am. It sounds like you’re having having positive feelings for your dad. What do you want to do with those positive feelings? They almost sound like emotional flashbacks that don’t hurt.

Perhaps he just couldn’t available because of your mom. Maybe he was simply drained. Again, I have your back. He should’ve removed you from the situation. As it is, he couldn’t remove himself. A lot of men give up emotionally in this day and age. Many of us don’t see a resolution.

I’ve also heard it said that codependency is narcissistic. Personally, I don’t see that. Codependency has a deep level of care that disregards oneself. That isn’t narcissism. That is Internet life coaches that want to make a buck.

Sweet Harri. Maybe you’ve reached a new level in your healing. I’ll be up for a while and would love to hear more about your dad if you’re inclined to talk about him.

[Harri]

Hi zachira (I want to call you Z... .is that okay) and JNChell and thank you for jumping in with me.   

thanks for the reminder that I am safe Z.  It is weird as I have been still struggling after finally grieving the death of my mom, what?  11 years later?   and still had not quite gotten back emotionally and have been foggy and I think dissociating lately in terms of just not being able to concentrate well and spacing out.  I thought it was residual stuff with my mom.  And dad pops up in my dreams lately.  go figure. 

My mom was definitely anti dad especially from about 8 and up.  Maybe sooner, I don't know.  though maybe i will finally get some clarity on that... .or not like JNChell said.  I am not sure if it was to compete with him but she definitely split him black.  He could do nothing correctly, not even breathing.  Literally.  She would correct his breathing, imitating him, making faces, making cruel comments, faces, telling my brother and i how disgusting he was.  Same with eating, how he walked, how he talked, his heritage, his ancestors... .it was never ending.

I remember feeling bad for him.  A good example: one time we were at the table eating sandwiches for lunch and i got so frustrated with her that I threw my sandwich at her.  Hit her right in the face too... .and she kept on going after not even pausing to smack me.  (yes, I should not have done that )  Gosh.  I am remembering sitting there and I can feel my stomach tense in knots and turning still.  It happened every meal and it was a relief I think when he was not there.  I did not have to listen to her when he wasn't around.  Eventually I came to hate some of those things that he did too... .I never made fun of him but I found him repulsive.  Interesting.  Maybe I learned to hate him in part to protect myself from seeing her abuse him so badly.  Is that possible?

Pffft... .'stay together for the kids'?  Right.  'Be there to take the brunt of the rage and protect the kids?'  Right.  'The rage is directed at me so the kids are safe and I am doing the right things as a father'?  Right. 

What a crock. 

Oooft!  I am getting all worked up now.   I should probably do this in the morning rather than before bed.   

I am not sure what I learned from my dad at least not anything good.  I can see plenty of him in me but they are behaviors I do not like and do not feel proud about at all.  Maybe I will need to explore them a bit later on in this thread.  Not tonight though. 

Thank you Z!   

JNChell,    It has been a long time coming for remembering the good stuff with my dad (my mother too but more my dad).  I know you have my back so no worries there and please do not edit or tip-toe around  what you want to say to me. 

I have felt anger and resentment, though it has been mostly under the surface but then pops up sometimes.  That is part of why I am sort of freaked by these 'good' memories coming up with him.  Him being gentle and safe and wondering where the change happened.  Was it just me being a child or was it genuine feelings that progressed beyond love for survival that I had for him but that were suppressed for so long?  I am too hazy on the ages I was at for these memories to know or even make an educated guess. 

These are emotional flashbacks for sure.  I am greatly confused and maybe a bit reluctant to find that I still have feelings of love and kindness towards him.  He was evil in his failure to protect me.  It was not denial.  I can now remember when he would cry with some of the stuff she did to me and then at some point he stopped crying.  He watched.  He rolled his eyes.  He ... .let it happen.  If that is not evil I don't know what is. 

These emotional flashbacks don't feel good though.  they are not happy discoveries for me, not with my father.  I am confused and a bit unsteady from them.  I can't say they hurt but I can't tell if they don't hurt because I am numb. 

Codependency has a deep level of care that disregards oneself. That isn’t narcissism. That is Internet life coaches that want to make a buck.

Hmmmm, I can't really agree with that but I am open to looking at co-d differently.  I just don't see it as being a care taking kindness gone wrong sort of thing.  I see very little selflessness in it to be honest.  that is where the inversion comes in.  And I think I am in danger of taking my own thread off track here!  heh

Thanks for the offer to listen and talk with me.  I think I might be done so if I don't respond just know I am spent and need a break from this topic.   

[JNChell]

  Just to try to add a little humor, I’m picturing a woman that is bitching and moaning while a piece of lunch meat is slowly sliding down her cheek. I’m now going to dissociate to deli ham. You know what? Your mom is lucky that a sandwich was the only thing that hit her. You were not wrong in throwing it at her. I’d say you very restrained in your actions. It’s a good thing that baseball bats weren’t on the menu that day. If I ever start up a diner, dissociative Turkey will be on the menu. It’ll be a type of club sandwich.

Being freaked by good feelings isn’t abnormal when it comes to folks like us. We’re not used to them. Especially when those good feelings are coming from confusing and terrible people. Do you think that it was easier for your dad when you were younger? I’ll try to explain my thoughts the best that I can here. When you were younger, it was still new to him. Your mom’s behavior hadn’t had the affect on him yet that it would later on down the line. That’s just a thought is all. He completely dropped the ball on you. He was just as guilty as your mom because, as you say, he watched it all happen. Just typing that pisses me off. I’m so sorry my friend.

I understand the hazy stuff. It all runs together. There are extremely intense situations that stand out, but for the most part it looks and feels like a whirlwind. Yes. He let those things happen and I hope the guilt tortured him. I know that puts me on a certain level of evil myself for wishing that on another.  Maybe it’s more relevant to say justice. Grown men don’t stand by and watch children be abused. That’s a virtue.

Emotional flashbacks are hard, Harri. You’ve talked me through my own. It’s the crap coming out that has to come out. Your emotions are purging. It doesn’t feel good and I get that. You’ll feel better when it’s over.

I’m saying hmmm here as well. I guess that there is a deep level of selfishness with codependency. I’m very good at being wrong my friend. I’m sure that this subject will show its face on the boards. You think? Much love, Harri. Thank you for sharing. You help so much. 

[JNChell]

I’m curious about feeling numb to feelings that reside because of abuse. I don’t know if I numb them out. At times I become emotional over my childhood, but it’s usually a residual thing when I’m grieving my relationship with S4’s mom. It’s like I’m placing blame on my parents for my failures. When I do this, I feel like I’m skirting my responsibilities.

You seem to be pretty aware that you’re numb to what happened to you. What does it feel like? Are you actually able to look at it and recognize it?

Sorry for double posting.

[itsmeSnap]

Hi Harri

it all makes sense and is coherent, so good work with this bit of rambling 

But he was also dad and daddy to me and I loved him as a kid. He was not always a weak, pathetic and ineffectual jerk.

I guess the image you had of him shattered growing up. I think its part we ask kids don't allow our parents to "baby" us anymore, so they sort of internalize it as rejection as well and now we're in a position of the teenage self saying "I hate you because you don't care/understand", which spills into our adulthood since the issue is not resolved.

Or that clueless about human nature and mental illness and how it works?

I have been told some surprising things about the way I "interpret", interact with or "portray" others, so yes, I do believe its possible.

Maybe I learned to hate him in part to protect myself from seeing her abuse him so badly.  Is that possible?

You may have learned to hate whatever triggered your mom because you hated how she made you feel when she was triggered, its possible.

Pffft... .'stay together for the kids'?  Right.  'Be there to take the brunt of the rage and protect the kids?'  Right.  'The rage is directed at me so the kids are safe and I am doing the right things as a father'?  Right. 

What a crock

Angry harri is angry 

Yeah, gender roles. Dad is supposed to be strong and protective, you saw that when you were a kid, he was so big and strong, why couldn't he be strong for you? You were a little girl, why did you have to be the strong one? stronger than dad? was he so weak that a girl, his little girl of all people, had to be stronger than him?

That comes to mind when reading your reactions, is any of this accurate?

He watched.  He rolled his eyes.  He ... .let it happen.  If that is not evil I don't know what is. 

This is an impossible what if, so take it for what it is:

what would you have had him do harri?

obviously it wasn't enough whatever he did, but could he have even done more? we can't change others, he couldn't change his partner, he couldn't change his daughter (only so many dinner fights can be mediated before you start thinking there's no negotiation to be had). he wouldn't leave her, he wouldn't leave you, is there a path I am not seeing?

It sounds like I'm defending him, I see so much of my mom in your dad. We also had it rough growing up with dad, though she never gave up. She messed up big time as well, multiple times actually, but never gave up. Even now after 30+ years and divorce she still tries to do right by us; poorly, but still. Anyway...

Him being gentle and safe and wondering where the change happened.  Was it just me being a child

Definite possibility, particularly with your youth being a blur.

These emotional flashbacks don't feel good though.  they are not happy discoveries for me, not with my father.  I am confused and a bit unsteady from them.  I can't say they hurt but I can't tell if they don't hurt because I am numb. 

Dreams are not flashbacks Harri, be aware of the distinction. The dreams have triggered the memories, but they don't necessarily mean that what you dreamed about him is how you feel, or felt about him.

Sometimes dreaming about a father is your brain thinking about authority positions in general. Maybe you love your job, maybe you're proud of being a part of helping others in need and its reflected through your love of the "position of authority" that is dad in your dream.

You mentioned seeing a sister you don't have (maybe your own self projection), your brother (who you mentioned you "worshiped") and a grandma (404: relationship status not found  ) while taking care of "dad" who is vulnerable and in constant need of attention.

All people you care about (I guess?), coordinating them to take care of the "authority figure", feeling warm and fuzzy that you're doing your part.

Do you see the parallels with the work you're doing on the boards?

[Libra]

Harri,

Our histories are very different. Yet I recognize so much of what you write in this post.

To use your words (I know you don’t mind that   ): I am still in the phase where I see my dad solely as a weak, pathetic, ineffectual jerk. Doesn’t sound harsh at all. I get where that comes from.
I’ve actually been trying really hard to get some concrete memories back. I crawled up into our attic to dig out the old photo-albums. My parents made loads of photos to send back to their families whilst abroad. It all looks so…normal. I see the pictures, I remember the places, but I cannot link any background story to it. It is as if I am looking at someone else, not me.

Anyhow, I digress. Maybe you are finally facing off you mothers’ (? Grrr) black splitting? From 12 years up, I know my mother never had a good word to say about my dad. Not the extremes you had sit to through, but the insidious snide remarks here and there. Never a positive word. (WOW by the way for throwing a sandwich at your mom. That takes guts!). I still wonder if I just soaked this all up, that it became my reality. Why do I have nothing but loathing for my dad? (I can’t even write father, that sounds too respectful). According to my mom I was his all-time favourite and he loved me to bits. I don’t recall any of this, and I feel I can’t trust her words, so I have nothing to go by.

I digress again. What I am trying to say: might it not be the same as internalizing comments about yourself? Maybe hearing your dad being trashed all the time forced you to push aside the better memories you had of him, as a survival mechanism? Maybe, now that you’re so much further along in your healing, these memories are allowed to come up again? I’m just free-wheeling here, forgive me if I’ve missed the ball completely.

These emotional flashbacks don't feel good though.  they are not happy discoveries for me, not with my father.  I am confused and a bit unsteady from them.  I can't say they hurt but I can't tell if they don't hurt because I am numb. 

Your memories seem very conflicting with the – entirely justified! - anger you still have for your dad. Maybe the numbness is the middle ground between better memories and the anger and resentment that you still feel. Maybe that is the safest way of dealing with these things?

I am not sure what I learned from my dad at least not anything good.  I can see plenty of him in me but they are behaviors I do not like and do not feel proud about at all.

This sounds like very harsh criticism to me. Could these be echoes of your mothers’ criticisms on your dad? (btw, I'm pretty sure I have the same voice in my head.)

I can now remember when he would cry with some of the stuff she did to me and then at some point he stopped crying.  He watched.  He rolled his eyes.  He ... .let it happen.

This makes me so sad, Harri. I am so sorry he let you down in so many ways...  

I hope you managed to get some restful, peaceful sleep.

 

Libra.

[Notwendy]

I can relate to your feelings. I had a perception of my mother as the bad guy in the family and Dad as the good guy/victim of my mother. Later, I examined his part in the relationship.

He would often use my mother as an excuse for executing her hurtful requests. One day she decided we had to get rid of our puppy. We were young then. My father told us " mother says we have to get rid of the pup or she will leave". We started crying- at the time we didn't want her to leave and knew we had to give the pup away. But it was my father who packed us up and the pup and drove us to where we had to take the dog ( I have no idea where that was).

Good thing he didn't make that offer to me when I was a teenager. I would have chosen to keep the pup.  

I think back at what a horrible thing to say to kids. When I wanted him to buy me something " is mother allowing you to have this?" For college- I can't give you tuition money because mother won't let me. Before he died when I asked him for something sentimental to me that I wanted "you can't have it because mother won't let me give it to you".

Yet, I saw him as my hero, my Daddy, my only parent- and he was a good parent to us. Without him, nobody would have cared for us. He also would leave when we were older and they had a fight. What did he think we saw when he was gone? Did he really think we were safe? She did and said things I would not every want a child to see.

I can only imagine what he had on his plate. He supported us, and after work, he was a parent to us. Weekends were spent with him - he took us out on wonderful adventures. Mother wasn't with us. It was better that way.

He was a shoulder to cry on when I experienced my first break up with a teen boy. He visited me in college and encouraged my academic interests. He was a wonderful grampa to my kids and they loved him.

Still, I have wondered- why didn't he ever say no to her requests? Why didn't he own his decisions to go along with her? Yet there isn't a way to know the answers.

Our parents were not perfect- they too had their issues. He was both- a good father and a person who had his limits, like we all do. Ultimately, I think my father did the best he could with a tough situation. Maybe his parents didn't give him all the relationship tools he needed- and there were no mental health resources or internet for him then.

Harri- I hope you can forgive your father one day. First though, you can get angry at him. I had some moments of yelling up at the sky- I don't know if my father can hear me or not. But mostly I wish him a peaceful time in the hereafter. I think he deserves it.

[DharmaGate]

This is so helpful you all!     working on the dad issue now, thanks so much, so many me too moments reading. 

[Harri]

Such great replies, thank you all.

JNChell

Your mom's behavior hadn’t had the affect on him yet that it would later on down the line.

This makes sense and Libra and Snap touched on this as well.  I can see how the relentless verbal abuse and harassment can wear a person down over time.  Rationally I know that and can accept that.  I think the kid in me... .nope not think... .I'm filling  up with tears and my throat is burning and I feel like I am about 5 and my lower lip is all pouty right now (Son of a Bunny!  that makes me angry!)  so I KNOW the kid in me is angry and hurt and feels betrayed in spite of understanding on a rational level.  My kid/me, does not give a darn about rational, she wants her daddy to help her  Ugh.  I feel like a drama queen princess writing that here.  I am tough dammit... .said with a weak and wobbly lower lip... .Ugh.  

There are extremely intense situations that stand out, but for the most part it looks and feels like a whirlwind. Yes. He let those things happen and I hope the guilt tortured him. I know that puts me on a certain level of evil myself for wishing that on another.

I don't think it puts either of us on any level of evil.   It is the anger talking here.  We aren't plotting and planning revenge or even holding it in.  We are expressing it in a safe place and it is okay.

I am struck that when I think of the dinner/lunch verbal abuse I witnessed and was later subjected to myself though to a lesser degree I do not feel like I have a right to be soo angry.  But when I think of the other abuses that he stayed passive for I feel like my anger is okay.  All abuse is bad though.  I can feel angry and don't minimize other peoples experiences so why do I do it with my own?  ugh.

About feeling numb, yes I can tell when I am shut down but I had to learn to notice it and I am still slow to recognize it.  It is not as deep I guess is the word, as it used to be.  But it still happens.  It's part of my dissociation which, again, has improved.

Snap, thanks for replying!     glad I made sense.  I don't always.  heh heh

You may have learned to hate whatever triggered your mom because you hated how she made you feel when she was triggered, its possible.

That is a great way to say it Snap, thank you for putting it so clearly.  

Angry harri is angry... .was he so weak that a girl, his little girl of all people, had to be stronger than him?   That comes to mind when reading your reactions, is any of this accurate?

All of it is accurate.  I am angry.  There is a lot to my anger though.  Far more than what happened at the dinner table but I don't know how to talk about that yet without making it about my mom.  I have to figure that out... .but my dad is not just a tired, depressed man who lost the best years of his life to a mentally ill person and his own bad choices... .or was he?  My gut, the way my heart races and the way I tense say that I am now just barely seeing the anger I have for him.

Oh!  I just had a flash (sorry, this is what I mean about how I go all over the place).  I was very protective of my mom and attached to her still and angry when I started working on recovery.  I had to go through the same struggle with her abuse and my relationship with her as I am starting now with my dad... .so that makes me feel less confused about why these 'good' memories are coming back.  I had to reconcile the good and the bad once (well as much as I have at this point) and now I have to do it with my dad.  Hopefully it will be quicker  <In my head I am standing with my hands on my hips and tapping my foot in annoyance and saying Oh hell!>

obviously it wasn't enough whatever he did, but could he have even done more? we can't change others, he couldn't change his partner, he couldn't change his daughter (only so many dinner fights can be mediated before you start thinking there's no negotiation to be had). he wouldn't leave her, he wouldn't leave you, is there a path I am not seeing?

Nope, but I was hoping there was.    I had all these buts in my head... .like "but what about when he... ." and "but what about how he... ."  and I just have to breathe and work on accepting just what you said.  It wasn't enough.  He did fail me.  I can't change the past.  I can't change others.  I can't change the situation.  Getting angry over should haves and could haves is not going to do me any good.  It makes more sense for me to be angry over what was and is.

Thank you for that Snap.

What you say about authority is interesting.  I never wanted any when I was working though I was in a position that required it, I did not like it at all and left that position for another and refused promotions.  I had enough of being in charge and making decisions and taking care of things when I was a kid.  As a kid I used to play house and made my friends nuts because I never wanted to be a parent  in the game I wanted to be a kid... .for once to be a kid.  

Okay, that was a bit of a tangent... .

while taking care of "dad" who is vulnerable and in constant need of attention.

Oh Snap (!) it just sunk in how much I actually took care of my father, not just my mom.  I knew it but I did not KNOW it until just now.  

I need to stop here.  Crying too much ... .dammit and my head is throbbing.  I will be back for you Libra and Notwendy.

Thank you all.  I read the responses last night, this morning and again tonight and I can say i feel better in spite of the darn tears.  

Thanks all for having my back.  

[Libra]

Harri,

Just this:     

 

Libra.

[Kwamina]

"Allow yourself to grieve. Flashbacks are opportunities to release old, unexpressed feelings of fear, hurt, and abandonment, and to validate - and then soothe - the child's past experience of helplessness and hopelessness. Healthy grieving can turn our tears into self-compassion and our anger into self-protection." -- Pete Walker

Your tears and expressed anger can be a catalyst for an even deeper level of healing

Nice that you linked back to your old thread, some great names from back in the day in there! I also really like that blue bird

I'm filling  up with tears and my throat is burning and I feel like I am about 5 and my lower lip is all pouty right now (Son of a Bunny!  that makes me angry!)  so I KNOW the kid in me is angry and hurt and feels betrayed in spite of understanding on a rational level.  My kid/me, does not give a darn about rational, she wants her daddy to help her

Then maybe just let yourself feel these feelings and allow the 5 year old you to express and process what she's been through. To once again quote Pete Walker:
"Speak reassuringly to the Inner Child. The child needs to know that you love her unconditionally- that she can come to you for comfort and protection when she feels lost and scared."

You were a kid and in spite of everything you did love your parents and that's ok. I remember another member from back in the days (SlyQQ) once telling you 'that it is ok to love' and he was right. It is ok to feel love, even considering everything that has happend, it is still ok to feel love. All your feelings are a part of you and part of what makes you the wonderful Harri we've gotten to know on this board

It is ok to feel love and anger towards the same person even at the same time. Your anger is fully justified considering how your dad failed you, yet any love you might feel for him, is also totally understandable since he was still your dad, the only dad you had. He might not have been the dad you needed and wanted, yet he was still little Harri's dad and little Harri needed a dad. The memories of the abuse and him not protecting you are very real and the memories of the good times are also very real. Both realities existed. Integrating the realities and the conflicting feelings can be challenging, but I think you've taken another positive step by posting about what you're experiencing

The Board Parrot

[JNChell]

Hi, Harri.

My kid/me, does not give a darn about rational, she wants her daddy to help her

It’s hard wading back through the swamp. What are some things that you wanted your dad to protect you from, it you’re comfortable? I understand the feelings of seeming needy or overbearing when it comes to reaching out about our pasts. You’re one of the most experienced patrons on these boards. It’s ok to be a member that needs to vent.

I do not feel like I have a right to be soo angry

Hear, hear! You most certainly have a right to be angry. You were subjected to awful things as a child. I remember you chiming in on some of my not so subtle moments here.

so why do I do it with my own?  ugh.

Is there a chance that getting angry at your own experiences got you in hot water as a child? Maybe feeling numb plays a part here as well.

[Notwendy]

Hi Harri-

I get what you are saying. I believe  my father was a man with good intentions, who fell in love with my beautiful alluring and (unknown to him at the time) mentally ill mother. He didn't have access to information or internet then. I can't imagine the confusion and shock of having his beautiful seemingly lucid wife dysregulated in a snap. Then came the suicide attempts- I know of at least one. I think he had to be scared, but ultimately, I also wonder about this: ... .but my dad is not just a tired, depressed man who lost the best years of his life to a mentally ill person ... .or was he?

There was another reason I think I got the short end of the stick when it came to attention from my father. I am the stronger one. He didn't worry about me. By adolescence, I was pretty self sufficient- other than not being able to support myself. I had strong academic skills and later, a job after college. He felt responsible for my mother and us kids, but if he was over extended, I think he chose which one to get the least of his resources- the one who could manage without them. But it wasn't resources I wanted, I still just wanted to know that my father did love me and it was hard to be sure when my mother controlled his relationship with me.

My kid/me, does not give a darn about rational, she wants her daddy
It was 5 year old Notwendy sobbing like a baby at his funeral. It was both a loss, and a loss of hope, and anger.  It doesn't matter if you are 5 or 50. A father is special. I didn't stop wanting my father to be my Daddy. My father did act like a father, at times a wonderful one, but then also there were times when I think he just didn't have any more to give after giving all of himself to my mother.

You aren't alone in processing this Harri.

[freespirit]

Thanks for sharing Harri 

You said - "Anyway, I've been having dreams of him lately.  Last night I was living in a college dorm but I was my current age (weird) and my dad came to visit with my grandmother, a sister (I do not have one in real life) and my brother was there but I never saw him.  He was off doing something else.  So my father had alzheimer's, pretty mild before he died but in the dream he was bad and needed 24/7 watching.  In the dream I was worried and protective of him.  Making sure people were caring for him, chasing him around when they lost sight of him, keeping him with me when I could, even wanting him near me.  I woke up frantic when I was sitting next to him on the couch holding him to my side, gently hugging his arm and feeling warm content and loving towards him."

I think your dream is really interesting, this is how I interpret it 

" Last night I was living in a college dorm but I was my current age (weird)" - I think this denotes wisdom.

"and my dad came to visit with my grandmother, a sister (I do not have one in real life) - I think this denotes self empowerment and real healing of the female ancestral line.

"and my brother was there but I never saw him.  He was off doing something else."
- I think this denotes no longer "needing" an external masculine as the balance point as  both energies are residing within you. # The healing of codependency issues within yourself.

I think this is a very positive and powerful forgiveness and integration dream, full of wisdom, deep insight, love and compassion.

Thank you for sharing 

[Harri]

JNChell:  

Do you think that it was easier for your dad when you were younger?

JNChell, this line stuck with me.  I got myself back into T yesterday after taking a break.  It was supposed to be a short break but it lasted 5 months  anyway, I came to realize in my session that I resent that my dad was okay when it was relatively easy at home.  I was still fun and cute and he was not broken down as much.  Rational me understands how you can get worn down over time and I can accept that.  Emotional me not so much and I think I need to stop trying to intellectualize and just let myself grieve the fact that he was not there.  Oh, I can feel angry, but that is just a small part of it.  What lies beneath my anger is what I have been running from.  My question now is that if he was not broken down as much why couldn't he have done more?  Said no?  Had my mother committed?  She was abusing me and my brother.  Not too much later she was sexually abusing me and he let it happen.  He knew.  He watched.  He gave all control of the kids over to a mentally ill person.  Remember now, that he admitted to me decades later that he knew there was something wrong with her from the beginning.  

I guess that there is a deep level of selfishness with codependency. I’m very good at being wrong my friend. I’m sure that this subject will show its face on the boards.

I could be the one who is wrong JNChell, so don't be so quick there.  Being wrong is also a skill of mine... .I have had a lot of practice with it.  Maybe we can both be right for where we are right now?

Libra,    hello!  There was nothing brave about me throwing the sandwich at my mom.  I lost control.  It was the only time I got violent with her and I am grateful I did not have something else in my hands at the time.  Fortunately I learned to control those impulses and later, when things got really bad, I did not throw or do worse!  

Maybe hearing your dad being trashed all the time forced you to push aside the better memories you had of him, as a survival mechanism?

The more I think about it the more sense this makes to me.  My T agreed.  Right now I am grateful.  My feelings are complicated enough to sort through and to have to reconcile things with y dad the way I did with my mom seems overwhelming.  It seems complex yet more simple to face this with my dad, though that may be wishful thinking.  I do agree that I am ready to deal with this now.  It is exciting to me when I am in the right state of mind to see it that way.

Maybe the numbness is the middle ground between better memories and the anger and resentment that you still feel. Maybe that is the safest way of dealing with these things?

I think you are on to something here.  I am pretty sure my numbness will fade as I let myself get less resistant to this ball of crud called Dad.

Could these be echoes of your mothers’ criticisms on your dad?

Yes, I believe so.  My mothers criticism is tied to certain behaviors.  There is contempt when I remember certain things and seeing those in me is not pleasant.  This is going to require a lot of mind shifting.

Notwendy, I think of you and how you feel about your dad so often when this subject comes up for me.  Your com[passion and understanding for him has always stood out to me.  I have a question that might not be fair to ask, but I am going to ask it.  Feel free to disregard.  Do you think you would still love him and feel the way you do if he had watched your mom sexually abuse you?  I guess I am trying to reconcile that for me.  I get frustrated when I read stuff that puts sexual abuse on some higher plane than other forms of abuse.  They are all bad and IMO emotional is the worst... .it is the mind games that destroy.   Yet here I am holding onto sexual abuse as the ultimate card to withhold compassion, understanding, and whatever else may be there.  Heh.  Apparently sexual abuse is on a pedestal of sorts in my head.  

I have to leave off here.  Got a visitor.  Later.

[Notwendy]

Harri- this is a tough one. I don't think I could manage compassion it if my father witnessed my mother sexually abusing me. That would be too much for me to even try to comprehend. I don't even comprehend well why he chose to ignore what she was doing, but I can comprehend the position he was in as sole provider, only acting parent for a family in an era where there was little resources for mental health or information on BPD. I think physical abuse and sexual abuse is too visible for anyone to ignore and surely they knew, even decades ago that this was wrong ,no matter what. As it was, my mother didn't cause serious physical harm to us or overtly sexually abuse us, so he didn't see that.

However, she did violate sexual boundaries with us. I think he had to be somewhat aware as he heard the things she said, but at the time, I don't think this was exactly known as sexual abuse. When he was angry he would leave the house. Then, she'd say and do things in front of us that were --ugh, don't even want to write about them. It was sexual abuse, but she didn't touch us. I can't blame him for not doing something about it as I don't know if he knew, but if we tried to talk about her to him, he wouldn't hear it.

I probably should be more angry at him than I am, but he also did a lot of good for me- encouraged me academically ( even though my mother wouldn't allow him to fully help me financially with college ) and also was a great grandfather to my kids. But I never left them unsupervised with my mother ever. There is no way would I ever allow the kind of behavior with them that she did with her own children- and she knows it too.

The other consideration is that I began processing much of this after my father passed away. I do want to remember the good parts- there were good parts. His life is a finished book- with good chapters and difficult ones and both are part of the whole of who he was.

[Libra]

Harri,

Sorry for not getting back to you earlier. Time just flies by sometimes.

There was nothing brave about me throwing the sandwich at my mom.  I lost control.  It was the only time I got violent with her and I am grateful I did not have something else in my hands at the time.  Fortunately I learned to control those impulses and later, when things got really bad, I did not throw or do worse! 

Point taken. What I admire in your action then is that you stood up to your mother in some way. You indicated that you did not agree whith her actions. The manner you communicated this was far from ideal. I don't remember being able to disagree so clearly with my mother in any way at such a young age.  When you say you learned to control these impulses, could that also have been a process of internalizing her way of acting out? I may be stretching a bit far here, if so, please forgive me and disregard.

Regarding emotional versus sexual abuse. I don't know which is more damaging. I do think there's no use weighing the two against each other. It's like comparing rotten pears to rotten apples.
Again, just my two cents here, but maybe the main difference is that, even back then, sexual molestation of children was known to be wrong. Emotional abuse can in many ways be much more difficult to pinpoint, it is more elusive.
If you say your father knew, that he watched ... .it is a very conscious decision to turn away from that. In that sense I think it is very natural to find it difficult to show much compassion and understanding.

You don't have to put sexual abuse on a pedestal, but you shouldn't shrink it to a gnome either, Harri.   

 

Libra.

[JNChell]

I’m pragmatically on board with Notwendy. I don’t see a need to rehash what she has already stated. She touched on cultural differences between then and now. I can relate to and understand that. Going back a decade further, even more. So many “philosophers” and “intellectuals” refer to the 50’s these days. Maybe the same stuff happened, maybe it was well hidden by the front door. The church and politics. Sorry, I’m ranting.

Harri, regardless of any of that, you were wronged in severe ways. I have to say that it’s amazing that you’re here in the position that you are. You beat the odds in a big way. You’re a positive contributor to society. You won.

[Notwendy]

I also think the same stuff happened- it just wasn't talked about. There wasn't news media like we have now. I think people were more formal- in their dress, language and what they talked about. Mental health was a sort of taboo- and where would one go to talk about it if they wanted to?

Both FDR and JFK kept serious medical conditions from the public. People would probably be upset if a president did that now. I don't think it was only intentional deception. Revealing personal issues wasn't done in their era. They didn't want to invoke fear in the public that something might happen to them. That would not have been good for the US at the time.

I think it's helpful to interpret our parents' behavior in their era with the resources they had if it leads to our ability to forgive and heal. This doesn't mean denying it.

[Woolspinner2000]

Harri,

In it's own way, this is an interesting time for you once again. It's another spurt along the way of more learning, revealing, and gaining in understanding. Is it really painful to have these memories this time around? Do you feel as if you are weathering them in a different manner?

I have, from time to time, asked my T, "Why now? Why are the memories of this coming back now after all this time?" He usually had a good answer, like something going on in my life or something I encountered that triggered a release of something I hadn't remembered in a long time. I did find it puzzling though.

 
Wools-who just wanted to chime in and say Hi to you. 

[Harri]

I am not ignoring this guys, I swear.  Your responses here are wonderful and treasured and very supportive.

This subject just hit me hard, harder than I realized and I am digging my way out so just give me a bit more time.

Thanks again to all of you for your support. 

Much love.

[JNChell]

I understand, Harri. There’s nothing to be sorry for. I teach my boy the whole time that I’m with him. At his age, he has accidents. No trouble.

Is the subject still hitting you hard?

[Harri]

Thanks for bumping this JNChell. 

Yeah, I am still struggling.  I had to re-read everything here to remind me and it hit me all over again.  It's okay though .  I need to work this through.  Looking back and seeing how unseen my father was yet so intertwined in the abuse is confusing.  I don't want him there.  I keep getting myself caught in the should haves and could haves of the situation.  It pisses me off. 

Thank you for your kindness.  Your generous opinion of me is humbling.

Wools:

Do you feel as if you are weathering them in a different manner?

I guess I am.  I keep waiting for the pain to come in crashing and rushing waves and it is not happening.  It is more of a steady dull ache lately ... the kind of pain that becomes annoying in its steadiness.  Sharp, intermittent, stabbing pain is more interesting (for lack of a better word). 

Thanks for stopping by.  I miss you my friend. 

Libra: 

Again, just my two cents here, but maybe the main difference is that, even back then, sexual molestation of children was known to be wrong. Emotional abuse can in many ways be much more difficult to pinpoint, it is more elusive.

Agreed.  Sexual abuse, the mother daughter variety, can be quite obvious and overt like mine or can be more covert and harder to identify and label like Notwendy mentioned experiencing and like some of what happened to me.   I was thinking about this last night and I think it is related in part to the whole women are mysterious creatures schtick that was so prevalent back then and is still around today.  Fathers just give over the physical care of daughters to the female (happens with boys too but this is about mdsa [mother daughter sexual abuse]) and remain passive so often.  The more I talk about my experiences and take opportunities to educate about mdsa, the more people I find who had similar or know others who had similar happen to them. 

Yeah, not sure where I am going with this ... no where I guess.

Pleasant little side trip there wasn't it?  haha

But yes!  Emotional abuse is so hard to ID and define!  Where is the line?  When is the doting and 'loving actions' of a mom healthy and when does it cross to emotional abuse for example... and how to educate on that ... and how to educate that a child has a right to privacy with their own body when a mom wants to care take or supervise ...

Grrrrr...

You don't have to put sexual abuse on a pedestal, but you shouldn't shrink it to a gnome either, Harri.

This made me laugh and now all I can picture is a little gnome sitting on a pedestal.  I shall name my gnome Peeve and keep him as my pet!

Notwendy:

However, she did violate sexual boundaries with us. I think he had to be somewhat aware as he heard the things she said, but at the time, I don't think this was exactly known as sexual abuse. When he was angry he would leave the house. Then, she'd say and do things in front of us that were --ugh, don't even want to write about them. It was sexual abuse, but she didn't touch us.

This is so important to talk about Notwendy and I want to say thank you for being so open and willing to share this.  I don't ever feel comfortable labeling someone else's experience as only they have that right but ... but ... but!  Yes. 

His life is a finished book- with good chapters and difficult ones and both are part of the whole of who he was.

Thanks for this.  My dads life is over too, but I guess I am still just reading the chapters that are easy reads.  The steady anger and the hate really.  The steady hurt.  I know how to do those for the most part and I do not know how to reconcile the good and bad without getting my head all messed up right now.

Thanks everyone.