Seeking advice on a very difficult romantic relationship - Worth saving or not?

[Depression = 72% of members]

I apologize in advance for the length of this post, but this is a rather complicated situation. I’m trying to make sense of this, and trying to decide if this relationship is salvageable or if I need to move on.

I’m a middle-aged hetero man in a relationship with a middle-aged hetero woman. I’ll call her “Lara.” As far as I know she’s never been diagnosed with BPD/NPD/Cluster B, but I strongly suspect it, for the reasons below.

I’ve known Lara for almost four years. She was an acquaintance for about two years, and we became good friends in the third year. At that point, I fell deeply, madly in love with her. I mean I fell really, really hard for her. I’ve never been that deeply in love with another person, despite having two long-term, stable relationships of my own.

Lara is extraordinarily beautiful and charming. Outwardly, she appeared to be high-functioning, with a high-paying job in the tech industry (until last year) and a fairly successful financial history (until recently). She has adult children, and they appear to be normal and healthy, although I don’t know them very well.

About a year ago, I confessed my love to Lara in a passionate, heartfelt love letter.  Our friendship deepened, and over the next two months, we initiated a rocky romantic relationship. It soon became apparent that her outward façade of normality hid deep emotional problems.

Lara has suffered a great deal of childhood trauma involving the loss of a parent at a formative age and neglect/poverty that forced her to fend for herself.  As an adult she went through multiple failed marriages and relationships. Her longest relationship ended in a contentious legal/financial fight.

Enter me. At first, I thought Lara was absolutely amazing. She seemed to have it all together: Tremendously talented, highly intelligent, incredibly gorgeous, and utterly charming. She looks a bit like Ingrid Bergman in her prime. She has enormous charisma, and when she laughs or smiles, she lights up the room. Many of the men in her orbit become infatuated or fall in love with her, just like I did.

As we got closer and closer, we experienced moments of tremendous intimacy and bliss. We engaged in deep, revealing conversations for hours on end, and we felt as if we knew and understood each other on a level nobody had ever experienced. But I also encountered her emotional problems. She would frequently get drunk and exhibit wild emotional swings – crying jags interspersed with angry outbursts followed by laughter and joy, sometimes within minutes.

She is also highly self-critical and insecure. She constantly insisted that once I discovered all her flaws, I would not love her or want her. She refused to believe that I could love her, and insisted I did not, no matter how passionately I expressed it or how overtly I demonstrated it. I explained to her all the reasons I loved her—objectively true facts about her and who she is—but she insisted I did not know who she truly was and therefore I could not love her. She was absolutely convinced that once I found out who she really was, I would realize I was never in love with her and I would move on. She said she was a fraud. I couldn’t understand what she was talking about.

I loved being with Lara more than anything in the world, but the joyous, blissful times alternated with displays of anger and distance. She was often extremely kind and loving at night, only to turn cold and sullen the very next morning. I was confused and baffled by the changes in her behavior. At night, it seemed as if we were in the romance of a lifetime; and the next day she would act as if I was nobody to her.

Lara was extremely difficult to deal with. She had dozens of emotional sore spots and hidden scars. She would receive the most innocuous statements as deep personal affronts, prompting her to shove me away and storm out. Spending time with her was like walking through a minefield; I never knew when I might say or do something that would cause her to erupt in anger and storm out.

I saw all the red flags, but I was so in love with her that I decided I would put up with it. At first it seemed as if we had good communication, and I thought that if I had enough love and patience, we would always be able to work things out. But as her displays of anger and contempt became more frequent, it started to get more difficult to talk things out. I would listen to her patiently and carefully, and I tried to respond respectfully and without anger, but she would interrupt and cut me off, ignore me, or simply bypass whatever I had to say.

She began a pattern of breaking off the relationship, only to re-initiate it soon after. It became a brutal repetition of hot-and-cold treatment. Her reasons for breaking things off often made no sense, and I struggled to understand her thinking. Every time she broke up with me, I fell into a state of intense pain and abandonment. Then, when she re-initiated the relationship, it felt like the most blissful, healing moment of our lives, and it felt as if we had then grown even closer together than before. This cycle repeated several times over.

I soon found myself in a state of constant separation anxiety. She frequently and impulsively arranged trips out of town, during which times I would painfully pine for her return. The only time I did not feel anxiety was when we were physically together or engaged in a long texting session. I needed to see her or have contact frequently, and if I didn’t, I became obsessed and anxiety-ridden.

She felt I was putting too much pressure on her, so she encouraged me to date other women. But when I did so, she became extremely jealous and angry, forcing me to break off any relationships I started forming. She also began to distrust me and used the fact of my dating other women as proof that I did not truly love her.

The first time Lara broke up with me, I was in a terrible state of pain and despair. Desperate for affection and companionship, I went to an online dating site and discovered it was incredibly easy to meet new women. Literally within two days, I met another woman, spent some time with her, and we seemed to be extremely compatible. As soon as I did so, Lara got furious and decided she wanted me back. I was amused and flattered by her jealousy, so I broke things off with the budding girlfriend and went back to Lara.

This happened multiple times. Whenever I started to get back into a regular relationship with Lara, she seemed to lose interest in me, and she would try to break things off. I realized that I could always regenerate her interest in me by starting to date other women. As soon as I did that, Lara got angry/jealous and reinitiated our relationship, causing me to break things off with the other woman. I went through no fewer than four other relationships in this fashion—including one that lasted two months and during which the other woman said she had fallen in love with me. I ended up breaking her heart, and I feel absolutely terrible about this behavior... .I’ve caused other people great deal of emotional pain as a result of my on-again-off-again relationship with Lara. It makes me deeply ashamed, and I feel as if I am trapped or powerless in this terrible dynamic... .

All this was complicated by the fact that Lara was still married, albeit in half-baked fashion. She had physically separated from her husband. The lived in separate homes, and they had no sex life. However, she was still emotionally attached to him, and she saw him frequently. She never initiated divorce proceedings, and she has no plans to do so as of this day.

She also hid her relationship with me from her husband—as well as everyone who knew both of them, which included most of her friends. That required her to completely compartmentalize her relationship with me, and as a consequence she could never fully let me into her life. She refused to even let me in her bedroom.

As a result, we spent much of our time with each other in isolation, usually at my house—in the “bubble,” as we called it. If we were ever together in the presence of her friends, she pretended as if there was nothing between us. Because she frequently hosted large social events, this turned into something of a grand charade. At most of these times, she acted as if I was a distant acquaintance, barely acknowledging or talking to me. If we went out to a restaurant, theater, or bar somewhere, she was constantly worried about being seen with me by one of her husband’s friends. All this made me extremely uncomfortable, and I began to feel isolated and alienated by this behavior.

Three or four months into the relationship, I found myself in a constant state of anxiety, isolation, and alienation. My painful state of mind was alleviated only when I could be together with Lara, and even then, it was constantly fraught with emotional volatility and suspense. I never knew when she might attempt to break things off again, and I was constantly in fear of it. I found myself bending over backwards to accommodate her unpredictable behavior and make excuses for the never-ending disruptions.

Over this time, Lara began to deteriorate psychologically. She quit her high-paying job over a personality dispute, and she began to get into financial trouble. I began lending her large amounts of money so that she could pay her bills and make her mortgage payments. But she also spent money with reckless abandon, acting as if she had no budget constraints. Her finances were a complete mess. She ignored her bills and unnecessarily ran up expenses on a daily basis.

Lara also began getting more depressed more often. She was drinking heavily on a daily basis, and we began staying up all night talking and making love, trying to escape from her problems.  

During this time, her husband started becoming extremely depressed himself. He began drinking heavily and threatened to commit suicide. She felt she had to coddle him emotionally, and she began spending more time with him, while I became jealous and more anxious. It appeared she would never be able to move on from her husband, and that she would never let me fully into her life.

Then, about six months into the relationship, one of Lara’s ex-husbands (and the father of her children) actually did commit suicide. At that point, Lara was simultaneously on the brink of financial collapse and in danger of losing her house. She became deeply depressed, and she retreated and distanced herself from me.

I could take no more, and I broke things off abruptly. I asked her not to contact me again.  She was hurt by and furious at my betrayal and abandonment at what was a time of great emotional pain for her. But when she missed a mortgage payment, she reached out to me for more money. I felt bad for her, so I made another large loan to her. We resolved to remain friends, and we are still good friends now. We see each other several times a week, and while we do not have a sexual relationship, we are physically affectionate and emotionally intimate.

I find myself in a state of immense emotional turmoil. I still care for her a great deal, but my relationship with her has turned me into a complete mess. My professional life is suffering, and I am starting to become more financially strained myself.

Intellectually, I know I should try again to break off contact with her, but I can’t bring myself to do it.  I’ve begged her multiple times to see a therapist, but she refuses to do so. She says has tried therapy in the past, and she found it of no help, so she has no desire to try again. She views the psychology profession with contempt and disdain.

She has flashes of insight and self-awareness at times, but these never seem to last. She knows she has serious problems, but she also rejects the “mental illness” paradigm (which I sympathize with, to a degree), and she insists she has to “honor” her own feelings and worldview rather than treating it as a dysfunctional state that she should try to change or heal.  

A number of observations and personality quirks I’ve noticed:
 
•   She is extremely sensitive to any kind of emotional stimulus. I soon learned that a normal activity like watching a movie or TV show with any intense level of drama would cause her to have an intense emotional reaction that would last long after the movie or show was over. She lingers and broods in anger/sadness/depression for hours after any such outing. Now I think very carefully before picking a movie to watch with her—it has to be something completely free of negative emotional impact, or the entire evening is shot.

•   She is extremely sensitive to her environment. She is deeply affected by the seasons and weather. She seems to do best during long stretches of good summer weather, while becoming depressed and withdrawing in the gloomy, rainy days of winter. She’s obsessed with the aesthetics of her home, and surrounds herself with beautiful objects, furniture, and whatever special things bring her a sense of joy or meaning. She can’t stand to be in an ugly or noisy place for very long.

•   Her memory and past impressions of our relationship are distorted and incomplete. At times she has gone so far as to deny we were even in a relationship, despite the fact that we were having sex regularly, she was spending the night at my house, and we were ostensibly making plans for the future (she was going to divorce her husband and make our relationship public, etc). Now she says, “We were never in a relationship.”

•   It often seems as if she has completely forgotten about all the time we spent together and how close and intimate we’ve been with each other. I constantly remind her how long we’ve known each other, and everything we’ve been through together, but she always ignores these reminders.

•   She recently complained about how she hasn’t felt loved in a long time. I was absolutely flabbergasted. I wrote her a letter setting forth the history of our relationship and detailing all the ways in which I’ve shown and demonstrated my love for her—passionate love letters and declarations of love, showering her with gifts, performing all kinds of favors and services, our wonderful love-making and cuddling sessions, and so forth. I got no response. It seems like she doesn’t even want to acknowledge the existence of our relationship.

•   She often devalues and denigrates me, viewing me as a two-dimensional, unsophisticated person, despite my having an extensive professional and educational background, a successful career path, and a very difficult/complicated childhood/background of my own that required overcoming all kinds of adversity and obstacles. She makes statements like “you haven’t lived enough,” and she makes specific claims about me that are completely falsifiable by any objective measure. She once told me, “You’ve never mourned,”—this only a year after my father’s illness and death, which was one of the most difficult periods of my life.

•   She routinely displays open contempt for my educational/professional/lifetime accomplishments. I like to think I have my life together—I have a great career doing meaningful work, I am financially stable, I’m highly organized, I keep a clean/orderly house doing all my own cooking and cleaning, I’m physically fit and go to the gym on a daily basis, I have many good friends, I enjoy entertaining etc.—but for her, these are all sources of resentment and contempt. She views all the conventional markers of success as meaningless and unworthy of admiration.

•   I think she can’t stand that I’m an organized person because her own life is one of total disorganization and chaos. Whereas other women seem to appreciate my accomplishments, with her I have to downplay them because they make her feel bad about herself.

[Misto]

I apologize in advance for the length of this post, but this is a rather complicated situation. I’m trying to make sense of this, and trying to decide if this relationship is salvageable or if I need to move on.

I’m a middle-aged hetero man in a relationship with a middle-aged hetero woman. I’ll call her “Lara.” As far as I know she’s never been diagnosed with BPD/NPD/Cluster B, but I strongly suspect it, for the reasons below.

I’ve known Lara for almost four years. She was an acquaintance for about two years, and we became good friends in the third year. At that point, I fell deeply, madly in love with her. I mean I fell really, really hard for her. I’ve never been that deeply in love with another person, despite having two long-term, stable relationships of my own.

Lara is extraordinarily beautiful and charming. Outwardly, she appeared to be high-functioning, with a high-paying job in the tech industry (until last year) and a fairly successful financial history (until recently). She has adult children, and they appear to be normal and healthy, although I don’t know them very well.

About a year ago, I confessed my love to Lara in a passionate, heartfelt love letter.  Our friendship deepened, and over the next two months, we initiated a rocky romantic relationship. It soon became apparent that her outward façade of normality hid deep emotional problems.

Lara has suffered a great deal of childhood trauma involving the loss of a parent at a formative age and neglect/poverty that forced her to fend for herself.  As an adult she went through multiple failed marriages and relationships. Her longest relationship ended in a contentious legal/financial fight.

Enter me. At first, I thought Lara was absolutely amazing. She seemed to have it all together: Tremendously talented, highly intelligent, incredibly gorgeous, and utterly charming. She looks a bit like Ingrid Bergman in her prime. She has enormous charisma, and when she laughs or smiles, she lights up the room. Many of the men in her orbit become infatuated or fall in love with her, just like I did.

As we got closer and closer, we experienced moments of tremendous intimacy and bliss. We engaged in deep, revealing conversations for hours on end, and we felt as if we knew and understood each other on a level nobody had ever experienced. But I also encountered her emotional problems. She would frequently get drunk and exhibit wild emotional swings – crying jags interspersed with angry outbursts followed by laughter and joy, sometimes within minutes.

She is also highly self-critical and insecure. She constantly insisted that once I discovered all her flaws, I would not love her or want her. She refused to believe that I could love her, and insisted I did not, no matter how passionately I expressed it or how overtly I demonstrated it. I explained to her all the reasons I loved her—objectively true facts about her and who she is—but she insisted I did not know who she truly was and therefore I could not love her. She was absolutely convinced that once I found out who she really was, I would realize I was never in love with her and I would move on. She said she was a fraud. I couldn’t understand what she was talking about.

I loved being with Lara more than anything in the world, but the joyous, blissful times alternated with displays of anger and distance. She was often extremely kind and loving at night, only to turn cold and sullen the very next morning. I was confused and baffled by the changes in her behavior. At night, it seemed as if we were in the romance of a lifetime; and the next day she would act as if I was nobody to her.

Lara was extremely difficult to deal with. She had dozens of emotional sore spots and hidden scars. She would receive the most innocuous statements as deep personal affronts, prompting her to shove me away and storm out. Spending time with her was like walking through a minefield; I never knew when I might say or do something that would cause her to erupt in anger and storm out.

I saw all the red flags, but I was so in love with her that I decided I would put up with it. At first it seemed as if we had good communication, and I thought that if I had enough love and patience, we would always be able to work things out. But as her displays of anger and contempt became more frequent, it started to get more difficult to talk things out. I would listen to her patiently and carefully, and I tried to respond respectfully and without anger, but she would interrupt and cut me off, ignore me, or simply bypass whatever I had to say.

She began a pattern of breaking off the relationship, only to re-initiate it soon after. It became a brutal repetition of hot-and-cold treatment. Her reasons for breaking things off often made no sense, and I struggled to understand her thinking. Every time she broke up with me, I fell into a state of intense pain and abandonment. Then, when she re-initiated the relationship, it felt like the most blissful, healing moment of our lives, and it felt as if we had then grown even closer together than before. This cycle repeated several times over.

I soon found myself in a state of constant separation anxiety. She frequently and impulsively arranged trips out of town, during which times I would painfully pine for her return. The only time I did not feel anxiety was when we were physically together or engaged in a long texting session. I needed to see her or have contact frequently, and if I didn’t, I became obsessed and anxiety-ridden.

She felt I was putting too much pressure on her, so she encouraged me to date other women. But when I did so, she became extremely jealous and angry, forcing me to break off any relationships I started forming. She also began to distrust me and used the fact of my dating other women as proof that I did not truly love her.

The first time Lara broke up with me, I was in a terrible state of pain and despair. Desperate for affection and companionship, I went to an online dating site and discovered it was incredibly easy to meet new women. Literally within two days, I met another woman, spent some time with her, and we seemed to be extremely compatible. As soon as I did so, Lara got furious and decided she wanted me back. I was amused and flattered by her jealousy, so I broke things off with the budding girlfriend and went back to Lara.

This happened multiple times. Whenever I started to get back into a regular relationship with Lara, she seemed to lose interest in me, and she would try to break things off. I realized that I could always regenerate her interest in me by starting to date other women. As soon as I did that, Lara got angry/jealous and reinitiated our relationship, causing me to break things off with the other woman. I went through no fewer than four other relationships in this fashion—including one that lasted two months and during which the other woman said she had fallen in love with me. I ended up breaking her heart, and I feel absolutely terrible about this behavior... .I’ve caused other people great deal of emotional pain as a result of my on-again-off-again relationship with Lara. It makes me deeply ashamed, and I feel as if I am trapped or powerless in this terrible dynamic... .

All this was complicated by the fact that Lara was still married, albeit in half-baked fashion. She had physically separated from her husband. The lived in separate homes, and they had no sex life. However, she was still emotionally attached to him, and she saw him frequently. She never initiated divorce proceedings, and she has no plans to do so as of this day.

She also hid her relationship with me from her husband—as well as everyone who knew both of them, which included most of her friends. That required her to completely compartmentalize her relationship with me, and as a consequence she could never fully let me into her life. She refused to even let me in her bedroom.

As a result, we spent much of our time with each other in isolation, usually at my house—in the “bubble,” as we called it. If we were ever together in the presence of her friends, she pretended as if there was nothing between us. Because she frequently hosted large social events, this turned into something of a grand charade. At most of these times, she acted as if I was a distant acquaintance, barely acknowledging or talking to me. If we went out to a restaurant, theater, or bar somewhere, she was constantly worried about being seen with me by one of her husband’s friends. All this made me extremely uncomfortable, and I began to feel isolated and alienated by this behavior.

Three or four months into the relationship, I found myself in a constant state of anxiety, isolation, and alienation. My painful state of mind was alleviated only when I could be together with Lara, and even then, it was constantly fraught with emotional volatility and suspense. I never knew when she might attempt to break things off again, and I was constantly in fear of it. I found myself bending over backwards to accommodate her unpredictable behavior and make excuses for the never-ending disruptions.

Over this time, Lara began to deteriorate psychologically. She quit her high-paying job over a personality dispute, and she began to get into financial trouble. I began lending her large amounts of money so that she could pay her bills and make her mortgage payments. But she also spent money with reckless abandon, acting as if she had no budget constraints. Her finances were a complete mess. She ignored her bills and unnecessarily ran up expenses on a daily basis.

Lara also began getting more depressed more often. She was drinking heavily on a daily basis, and we began staying up all night talking and making love, trying to escape from her problems.  

During this time, her husband started becoming extremely depressed himself. He began drinking heavily and threatened to commit suicide. She felt she had to coddle him emotionally, and she began spending more time with him, while I became jealous and more anxious. It appeared she would never be able to move on from her husband, and that she would never let me fully into her life.

Then, about six months into the relationship, one of Lara’s ex-husbands (and the father of her children) actually did commit suicide. At that point, Lara was simultaneously on the brink of financial collapse and in danger of losing her house. She became deeply depressed, and she retreated and distanced herself from me.

I could take no more, and I broke things off abruptly. I asked her not to contact me again.  She was hurt by and furious at my betrayal and abandonment at what was a time of great emotional pain for her. But when she missed a mortgage payment, she reached out to me for more money. I felt bad for her, so I made another large loan to her. We resolved to remain friends, and we are still good friends now. We see each other several times a week, and while we do not have a sexual relationship, we are physically affectionate and emotionally intimate.

I find myself in a state of immense emotional turmoil. I still care for her a great deal, but my relationship with her has turned me into a complete mess. My professional life is suffering, and I am starting to become more financially strained myself.

Intellectually, I know I should try again to break off contact with her, but I can’t bring myself to do it.  I’ve begged her multiple times to see a therapist, but she refuses to do so. She says has tried therapy in the past, and she found it of no help, so she has no desire to try again. She views the psychology profession with contempt and disdain.

She has flashes of insight and self-awareness at times, but these never seem to last. She knows she has serious problems, but she also rejects the “mental illness” paradigm (which I sympathize with, to a degree), and she insists she has to “honor” her own feelings and worldview rather than treating it as a dysfunctional state that she should try to change or heal.  

A number of observations and personality quirks I’ve noticed:
 
•   She is extremely sensitive to any kind of emotional stimulus. I soon learned that a normal activity like watching a movie or TV show with any intense level of drama would cause her to have an intense emotional reaction that would last long after the movie or show was over. She lingers and broods in anger/sadness/depression for hours after any such outing. Now I think very carefully before picking a movie to watch with her—it has to be something completely free of negative emotional impact, or the entire evening is shot.

•   She is extremely sensitive to her environment. She is deeply affected by the seasons and weather. She seems to do best during long stretches of good summer weather, while becoming depressed and withdrawing in the gloomy, rainy days of winter. She’s obsessed with the aesthetics of her home, and surrounds herself with beautiful objects, furniture, and whatever special things bring her a sense of joy or meaning. She can’t stand to be in an ugly or noisy place for very long.

•   Her memory and past impressions of our relationship are distorted and incomplete. At times she has gone so far as to deny we were even in a relationship, despite the fact that we were having sex regularly, she was spending the night at my house, and we were ostensibly making plans for the future (she was going to divorce her husband and make our relationship public, etc). Now she says, “We were never in a relationship.”

•   It often seems as if she has completely forgotten about all the time we spent together and how close and intimate we’ve been with each other. I constantly remind her how long we’ve known each other, and everything we’ve been through together, but she always ignores these reminders.

•   She recently complained about how she hasn’t felt loved in a long time. I was absolutely flabbergasted. I wrote her a letter setting forth the history of our relationship and detailing all the ways in which I’ve shown and demonstrated my love for her—passionate love letters and declarations of love, showering her with gifts, performing all kinds of favors and services, our wonderful love-making and cuddling sessions, and so forth. I got no response. It seems like she doesn’t even want to acknowledge the existence of our relationship.

•   She often devalues and denigrates me, viewing me as a two-dimensional, unsophisticated person, despite my having an extensive professional and educational background, a successful career path, and a very difficult/complicated childhood/background of my own that required overcoming all kinds of adversity and obstacles. She makes statements like “you haven’t lived enough,” and she makes specific claims about me that are completely falsifiable by any objective measure. She once told me, “You’ve never mourned,”—this only a year after my father’s illness and death, which was one of the most difficult periods of my life.

•   She routinely displays open contempt for my educational/professional/lifetime accomplishments. I like to think I have my life together—I have a great career doing meaningful work, I am financially stable, I’m highly organized, I keep a clean/orderly house doing all my own cooking and cleaning, I’m physically fit and go to the gym on a daily basis, I have many good friends, I enjoy entertaining etc.—but for her, these are all sources of resentment and contempt. She views all the conventional markers of success as meaningless and unworthy of admiration.

•   I think she can’t stand that I’m an organized person because her own life is one of total disorganization and chaos. Whereas other women seem to appreciate my accomplishments, with her I have to downplay them because they make her feel bad about herself.

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[Misto]

•   She has an amazing capacity to gaslight me and turn things around so that whatever happens is my fault, or a consequence of my shortcomings rather than anything she did. At first, I was so in love with her that I bent over backwards not to resist, and I allowed her to make me the scapegoat for anything that went wrong. I just wanted to do whatever was necessary to keep the relationship going, and that meant accommodating her quirks and defects. In retrospect, this was a serious mistake.

•   She has always refused to enter my life in any meaningful way, and she refuses to let me enter hers. She has no desire to see any part of my work/professional world, and she has little/no interest in what I do for a living. As I mentioned above, she never even let me into her bedroom, which was symbolic of her overall treatment of me. I’ve offered to help her get her life together—to help her organize her finances and documents, to get her house in order, etc.—but she refuses any kind of assistance.

•   She can’t be intimate with me without drinking. I’m not just talking about sex—I’m talking about any kind of physical affection. At first, I thought it was just a matter of our getting to know each other and her getting comfortable being intimate, but this pattern continues to this day. As a result, I can’t help but ply her with alcohol because I know it’s the only way I can be intimate or affectionate with her. I know it’s incredibly unhealthy and dysfunctional, but I crave her affection so much that I can’t stop myself, and she plays right into it, knowing herself that she has to drink to let the armor go... .It’s a terrible dynamic, and I hate myself for engaging in it... .

Despite all the difficulties this relationship presents, I still love her and care about her deeply. I feel a great deal of compassion for her, and I know that her condition is a consequence of how she was treated by others, or her genetics, or other things outside of her control. I don’t think she is an intentionally bad person; it’s just the effect of her conduct. Most of the time, she is completely unaware of how badly she’s behaving, or how selfish and hurtful her behavior is.

But she is capable of self-reflection at times. She once admitted, “I’m an unreliable narrator of my own relationships,” and she said, “I don’t think I’m aware of the effect my conduct has on other people.” She apologized for “wreaking havoc” on my life. She once apologized for getting angry at me, explaining, “Part of my anger comes from not being able to give you what you want and need. It makes me feel like a bad person.” But I also know that if I ever tried to remind her she said these things, she would probably deny it or claim she doesn’t remember saying that.

In the times when we are getting along well, it’s really wonderful. She has the capacity to be an incredible loving, affectionate person at times, and these interactions bring me a great deal of bliss and happiness.

And I feel like I have a deeper understanding now of how she thinks, what’s motivating her, and how to respond to her. If I thought it was possible to maintain any kind of halfway normal or stable relationship, I would do everything possible to make that happen.

But my friends are telling me this is a lost cause—that a person like this can never change or get better—at least not if they don’t decide to do it on their own, and Lara shows no desire to seek help. My friends are urging me to break off all contact with her and move on. In fact, I have tried to do that twice now, but on both occasions we ended up back together... .

So... .any help? Or just kinds words? I’ve started seeing a therapist myself, and while it has helped somewhat, I’m still having a hard time with this.

Thanks for any help.

[Misto]

One more observation:

It's extremely difficult for her to accept help. She is terrified of becoming "dependent" on me because she fears becoming controlled. Any help I give her (especially financial assistance) has to be completely 100% no-strings-attached--which is perfectly fine with me, but she needs to emphasize that--and even then she decides any such efforts must have been an attempt by me to gain control over her. I've assiduously avoided doing so; I do my absolute best to let her keep her space and time, and I've never once tied my assistance to her with any kind of obligation to me (other than to pay the money back eventually, and I've been extremely generous about that--I'm basically assuming I'll never see it again).

Ironically, the effect of this is that her behavior is extremely manipulative and takes advantage of me to the point where I give her a great deal of help, and she does/gives nothing at all in return... .At times it feels like she's something of a black hole to whom I give everything, but who gives me nothing except her occasional time and affection.  (And even then, she has complained about how much time she spends with me, as if I weren't also spending my valuable time with her, or as if she doesn't enjoy being with me when she clearly does.)

[Misto]

(Accidental post deleted)

[Sandb2015]

Welcome Misto,

I did read everything you wrote, you are in the right place.  I see so many similarities to you and my story, unfortunately it's similar to other stories as well.

Take the time to read everything you can here and find some peace while doing so.

[loyalwife]

Misto,
    So much of what you have written is exactly what I have been through with my husband. He's undiagnosed, but like your GF has all the ramifications of BPD, with paranoia thrown into the mix. Your experiences are not of your doing, but of your undoing, and that is the summary of being in a relationship with someone with BPD. This site is rich with empowerment, whether you stay or leave. What I have read between the lines is that you are more concerned with her needs than your own. It's not unusual to want to fix the problem or help, and these are all good human traits, but in the eyes of the pwBPD it will never be enough.
     Did you know that she was still married when you began your relationship? My husband told me that he was separated and had been for years.  I think at the time I thought that meant that he was divorced, but found out later that emotionally he was still attached to his ex. We announced our engagement before they were divorced (something I would never had done). His ex was in a panic and as a result she not only changed her name, his daughter also did. Our marriage was a way for him to ultimately 'get rid' of them.  Not signing the papers were not all his ex's fault. The real story will never be known, and you cannot be sure that she isn't playing all sides with you.
     You love her, and that is what brought you here. I love my husband... .but. When you look at the relationship, is it healthy?  Does the times of closeness oversee the times of distance? I say this as I am asking myself these very questions.
     She owes you money, and you aren't a bank but your GF treats you as though you are. She knows that you are willing to do whatever it takes to help her, this she has learned. It doesn't mean that she is evil, she is sick. I know how hard it is to grasp mental illness, but that's what it is, sickness. She didn't ask for it, she didn't want it, but she has it. My husband has been to therapists and he's good at convincing them that it's everyone else's fault. I changed them by seeking a therapist of my own who specializes in BPD. She has given me help at managing my marriage and maneuvering when things get stuck. When
we started the sessions, she said "I'll help you stay or help you leave. Sounds like you want to stay." Get some good guidance from a counselor familiar with the ailment, not for your GF, for you.  
    Last but not least, take care of yourself. Do something for yourself you might do for her. Start small, a walk in a beautiful park, ice cream or a movie that makes you laugh. You are worth it, regardless of how someone else tries to make you feel. Will she ever change? I can say that my husband is better, not cured nor perfect. What has changed is how I view him and our relationship. When he is available to me, and his charming wonderful self, I enjoy every moment. When he becomes vindictive, angry and mean, I seclude myself and keep my heart safe.  That is the difference.
    I hope this helps even a little.
    

[Misto]

Thank you for the kind responses.

Yes, I always knew she was married. I wondered why her husband was almost never around, but I figured that's just the way some couples are.

After I confessed my love for her, she revealed that the marriage was a failure. She gave me the impression she was on the brink of divorcing him, but she kept putting it off, and over time I realized she was still very emotionally attached to him.

I've met her husband, but I don't know him well. I get the impression they are in a co-dependent relationship. She speaks of him in extremely unkind terms, and she says he treats her badly, but she also is still attached to him, and I know I can't trust her assessment of their relationship.

It's not that she's intentionally dishonest about these things; I think she is simply in denial and her views of her romantic relationships are distorted or one-sided.

Is it healthy? That's a hard question to answer. At first, it felt wonderful. I was on top of the world, and I felt like the luckiest man on the planet to be with her. I know many other men who would have felt the same way, based on her outward appearances.

Over time it got more painful and difficult, and there have been many extended periods during which the pain and suffering outweighed any positive aspects.

It is true that I put myself out for her, and I often put her well-being before my own. That is the nature of being in true love with someone, I guess. To a large extent, my happiness is tied to hers, and if she isn't doing well, that takes a toll on me too. But when she's happy and we're getting along, it's truly blissful and rewarding.

Reading over the above, I realize I place on a lot of emphasis on her negative qualities, but there are many wonderful things about her too. She is a complicated, multifaceted person. When she's good, she's very good. She has a kind of motherly, affectionate love that is intensely healing, and being with her in that state is absolutely wonderful.

By the same token, that makes it all the more painful and tragic when she's in one of her negative/hurtful/angry/depressed/selfish modes. It's frustrating to see the potential for a truly amazing relationship, and I don't understand what's keeping it from happening sometimes, but yes, I know she's mentally ill... .

She is definitely using me and treating me like a bank, both financially and emotionally.  Someone introduced me to the term "narcissistic supply" and it absolutely fits her conduct towards me. She doesn't fit the DSM criteria for a narcissist, but she definitely has many of those characteristics.

It's very odd. She seems to have a great deal of empathy for many other people in many other situations.  But with me, she seems completely oblivious to the effect of her conduct on me, and when I try to explain why I'm hurt by something she's done, she is completely clueless--there's not an ounce of recognition there. I might as well be talking to a toaster oven in those situations.

With certain other people, like her children, she appears to be absolutely selfless and generous to a fault.  She has made enormous sacrifices for them on several levels.  But with me, she gives basically nothing except her time, and sometimes her affection (times at which, presumably, she is also enjoying the time, love and affection I am giving to her).

There are times when I've wondered if she has split personalities.  She is definitely highly compartmentalized and fragmented, but I don't know if any of those parts are unconscious of each other.  I suspect it happens sometimes, though.  On occasion, her voice will change, or her face/aspect/appearance will change, and she becomes almost scary and evil-sounding--angry, domineering, and vengeful, almost like a witch or a cruel dominatrix (not something I want either).  I've mentioned those moments to her later, and she has no memory of them... .

At other times she switches into a very child-like mode.  She gets emotional, starts crying at the drop of a hat, and her face scrunches up -- she looks extremely sad and vulnerable, like a small girl who is crying... .It's the most heartbreaking thing in the world, and every ounce of me just wants to comfort her and make her feel secure... .

[Misto]

I came across this clip of Ingrid Berman in a screen test recently, and it reminds me so much of Lara:

https://youtu.be/KIk_A115Src

The emotions that travel across her face, her smile at the end when she looks into the camera, and the way it radiates happiness and affection... .that is Lara when she is doing well, and you can see why men are so drawn to her.  Ooof... .

[loyalwife]

Misto,
   I can see why you are enamored with Lara and how you are head over heels. Its' interesting that you mentioned split personality, as I too wrestled with the possibility with my husband. When he is in an episode, his eyes change and shift from side to side, he doesn't keep himself tidy and he is almost unrecognizable.  It helped me to watch a few of the video's here, like the Jekyll and Hyde "Maybe its' more than just a bad day".  The person we love is there, but when the other side comes out, it is hard to find them.

   You are a wonderful writer. If you don't journal, start. It helped me to look at different scenarios and document what was said and done at the time. You can read through these later, and at lease realize that it is a cycle. Even if your GF says she can't remember what she said or did, she does. I think watching us try to make sense of the craziness gives them some kind of twisted pleasure. You love the woman you fell in love with, and that returns time to time, and she returns the same as she was, unscathed by the whirlwind she has caused. You on the other hand are marked from the chaos and left trying to fix whatever it was that caused it in the first place. But it isn't yours to fix.
    Read as much as you can about BPD and keep coming back, you are safe. There are many of us just like you here that you can learn through, share with and help.
    

[Misto]

 Thank you -- In retrospect, I wish I had started keeping a journal when this started. Fortunately I wrote her many letters, and we have literally thousands of pages of text messages, etc., that remind me how things went down.

It's bittersweet, however, to reflect on the initial stages of the relationship, when we were first becoming romantic and bonding... .At the time I thought I'd found the love of my life, and I hoped we'd eventually become a serious, committed couple. I was overjoyed and filled with bliss and love, thinking myself to be extremely fortunate. Now I can see what an illusion I was under, and I had no idea how painful things were about to become... .

There are times when I think it would make a decent novel. For privacy/anonymity reasons, I'm leaving out many details and facts that make for an interesting story.

And, oh--the eyes shifting from side-to-side--yes, I've seen that too... .I think the first time I saw that, I got a little glimpse into her mind, and that's when it hit me that this was a serious "illness" so-to-speak.

[Sandb2015]

Misto,

I feel the same regarding the bittersweet beginning, however, as difficult as it is now, I oddly feel good about almost everything I have experienced throughout the last 4 years.

The turmoil sucks, the possibilities for me still remain as well as some fear, some anxiety, I'm working on them all so I can help myself and have a life with her.

We all have an interesting book to write.  

[Misto]

Four years of that... .Wow, you have my deepest sympathy... . I'm usually trying to figure out if I can endure four more days of it... .

I was with her last night, and something happened (again) that reminded me how difficult it is:  She literally creates false memories of things I have done and said.  These are always bad things -- things that make me out to be an ass, or a fool, or a child, or something to be looked down on.

It's incredibly frustrating.  She'll say, "Oh, you said [X] the other day," where [X] is generally something really immature or disrespectful.  I'll respond, "What? What are you talking about? I didn't say anything at all like that."  But in her mind, I absolutely did, and I can't convince her she's imagining it.  Often, she takes something I did say or do, and she twists or distorts it into something completely different.

At times, she has admitted she misremembers and distorts things, but she's also been unapologetic about it, and she accuses me of doing the same thing.  (And I don't think I do, for the record.)  I'll tell her that she's remembering things based solely on her emotional impressions, not the actual reality of what happened, and she'll insist there's nothing wrong with that.  In her mind, it's the emotional impression that matters, not the facts.

It's incredibly frustrating, but it's also deeply saddening, because I feel like she's pushing me away based on a seriously negative impression of who I am, when I feel like I'm a pretty good guy who's capable of providing her with a great deal of positive support.

[Sandb2015]

Well, it's by choice, I am making the choice.

Frustrated is not the word, especially when you reside together (until about 6 weeks ago).

When things get "tough" with her and she does that, what do you do and what is the outcome mostly?

I would get devalued, had terrible things said to me, a real distortion of facts that reinforce the degrading, mixing half truth and half imagination.  They tend to stick around and pop up no matter how I would try to dispel them.

I would fight back and it would escalate to an "end game", get out, we can't do this etc.

I have a whole new perspective from digging in to the material on this site.

[Misto]

When things get "tough" with her and she does that, what do you do and what is the outcome mostly?

The first few times it happened, I chalked it up to an honest misunderstanding. Maybe I had given the wrong impression somehow, or maybe she misheard me, or there was just some miscommunication. At times I doubted my own perception of what happened--I'm not perfect, after all, maybe I really did behave badly... .

The more it happened, the more I realized her memory/perception of me was seriously flawed, and I realized I was being gaslighted. But whenever I started to point out that she was misremembering or misperceiving something, she got defensive, dug in, and insisted she was in the right.

I was careful when I first confronted her about this situation as a general behavioral pattern on her part.  I vaguely told her, "You know your memory is wonky, right?" And I left it at that. She asked me to elaborate, but I knew it would lead to a fight, so I didn't take the bait.

At the time, I was unaware this was a characteristic of pwBPD, and as I discovered it was, it began to make more sense.  I just tried to raise it with her via text in a neutral, unemotional, but direct and honest fashion.  Waiting for a response... .

[Misto]

As a general matter, her reactions to what I say about her are diametrically opposed to the substance of my statement.

For example, if I say something nice or complimentary to her, she rejects it. If I tell her, "You look really beautiful today," she'll respond by claiming there must be something wrong with my eyesight, or I must be wearing rose-colored glasses.  If I tell her, "You're an amazingly talented/smart/gifted artist," she'll respond by telling me her art is terrible, and she's really just a no-talent hack.

On the other hand, if I say anything remotely unflattering or negative (which is rare), she'll get incredibly defensive, deny it, and dig in.  For example, if I say, "That was a mean thing you said," she'll deny she ever said whatever it was.

Sometimes she'll flip things around and guilt trip me into apologizing for saying anything remotely negative.  

For example, I routinely cook really nice meals for her--all the time.  I've lost count of the number of dinners/lunches/breakfasts I've made for her, but it's a lot.  

She's cooked for me exactly *twice*, despite the fact that she prides herself on being a wonderful cook, and she is constantly making large, elaborate meals for her children, husband, and others.

She frequently describes to me in detail some amazing meal she cooked for someone. I once responded, "That sounds amazing; I sure wish I could  have tasted a bit of that."  She got incredibly despondent, her face became drenched in shame, and on the verge of tears, she said, "I'm a terrible, selfish person, and nothing I ever do is enough for anybody... ."  

I felt like crap and apologized repeatedly from the bottom of my heart for having made her feel so bad... .

She is an absolute master of the guilt trip. It's one of her most common defense mechanisms, often deployed in response to any attempt to address any hurtful conduct she may have engaged in.  She becomes engulfed in shame, and replies, "I'm a terrible person," and I'm forced to retract whatever I said, lest I feel like a jerk for having hurt her so badly... .

[truthbeknown]

MISTO,

My last relationship was very similar to that.  I went from the pedistal to the mat very quickly after she got off of anti-depressants.  I almost think she had some traits of BPD, some of npd, and some tendecies of bi-polar.  The bi-polar because she would go through real highs and then eventually crash and not shower for a week or do self grooming etc.   She was lovely when she was wearing the mask but behind the scenes things started to unravel.  She put her trust in the wrong people and not in people like me who really cared about her.  One thing i have noticed is those with BPD traits or npd traits tend to mis social cues and therefore can be influenced by those who are manipulative and it colors their world.  The recent movie a star is born reminded me of that (not sure if you saw it?).  But someone who has mental illness or problems emotionally regulating themselves seems to be influenced by those who are either manipulative or just buy into their distortions and give advise based on that.

Anyway, it sounds like you have developed an addiction to her just as i was addicted to my ex.  It took a long time to break that and finally when i saw a picture of her with another man i went no contact.  After 8 months or 9 months i finally started to feel better but i felt emotionally scared.  She cheated on me at the end so that didn't help. 

I don't think it's our place to give advise but for me i had to pull myself out of what i was addicted to and start to do the opposite.  I eventually left the state for a travelling job and i think that saved my life in some way.  Before that i was so depressed - the worse i have ever been.  I would have married her and loved her to eternity but it was not in the cards.  I'm struggling now with why i tend to get into relationships with personality disordered women.  I hope you find some peace and that this board helps you like it has helped me to realize it is a disease almost like alcoholism with the drinking.   They do become other people temporarily but then we can easily become enablers if we allow their dark side to go unchecked.   I think most of us struggle because if we do set boundaries we know or intuit that they will either leave or cheat or something worse (suicide).   It's hard to have such burden put on you/us but perhaps after some space you will remember that you are okay with out her.  I had to think of my ex as a drug and that i was an addict.  It was the only way to realized that just like drinking I had to put her somewhere where i couldn't reach her. 

I started reading about invert narcissism where sometimes people can get addicted to being controlled or giving power away to others.  I don't know if that was situational or if i might struggle with that in romantic relationships. 

well wishes to you.

[Misto]

You're absolutely right, it has all the features of an addiction, and at times I've tried to treat it exactly like that.

But I have compassion for her.  Humans aren't substances; there are reasons for why they are they way they are, and they aren't inherently "bad" or "wrong".

So I'm torn between trying to support her in whatever way I can (I know I can't fix or heal her) versus trying to save/protect myself.  If it was merely a substance I was addicted to, the first prong of that dilemma wouldn't exist... .

[once removed]

It's incredibly frustrating.  She'll say, "Oh, you said [X] the other day," where [X] is generally something really immature or disrespectful.  I'll respond, "What? What are you talking about? I didn't say anything at all like that."  But in her mind, I absolutely did, and I can't convince her she's imagining it. 

a good rule of thumb when dealing with a highly sensitive person is "dont be invalidating".

while the urge to defend yourself is a natural one, if you come out of the gate with "that never happened", all a person on the receiving end will hear is "you are wrong". that can be incredibly frustrating to her (even if she is wrong). she digs in, you dig in, and before you know it, youre having a circular argument about something you didnt say, when it really isnt about who said what in the first place.

what happened when you were with her the other night?

[Misto]

What's the best way to deal with that kind of thing?

I do generally avoid trying to confront/contradict her directly.  Sometimes I give her an "out" by allowing that maybe she simply misheard/misinterpreted things.  She'll often take that opportunity for the time being, but then the false impression will re-appear.

The other night was a typical example.  She was talking about an interaction I had with a third person--an innocuous/anodyne interaction--and painted it as me being "smug" and arrogant when I'm absolutely sure I was nothing of the sort. In retrospect, I don't think she was actually there to witness the interaction; I'm pretty sure she created a false memory out of my telling her about it after the fact. She took my version of the event and re-cast it into something else entirely, as if she had witnessed it herself... .very bizarre.

The next day I tried to address it in a very neutral, matter-of-fact way.  She said maybe she had misinterpreted something, but blamed me for acting in a way that could be misinterpreted. Then she accused me of misinterpreting things myself... .

That is a very common tactic of hers.  She is relentless with the projection.

[once removed]

What's the best way to deal with that kind of thing?

depends. my style is to listen with empathy, and ask validating questions to get at the heart of the matter.

in this case, it might be a matter of accepting that she had an opinion about an interaction of yours, and letting go of things that dont define you as opposed to fighting her perception.

maybe a mix of both approaches.

what actually happened here? what was the interaction about, and what led you to tell her about it?

[Misto]

To me, it wasn't about this specific interaction -- in isolation, it was nothing, and I wouldn't have paid much mind to her take on it. I don't really care that much what she thought of that specific event.

To me, it was just one example of an overall pattern wherein she creates a false impression of me in her mind -- an overall impression in which I'm cast as an "inferior person," i.e., somebody she can (and does) look down on, instead of an equal, or simply a person worthy of respect.

That's what I tried to address with her, not so much the specific interaction. I was just using that as one example.  It's something she does repeatedly. Typically she does it after a period in which we've been getting along well, and during which she is starting to edge closer to me (yet again). 

My theory is that it's actually a reaction to her getting closer to me. I think she's subconsciously using it as a tactic to keep me at a distance.

[once removed]

To me, it wasn't about this specific interaction -- in isolation, it was nothing, and I wouldn't have paid much mind to her take on it.

understood. it might, however, be indicative of a larger dynamic between the two of you.

To me, it was just one example of an overall pattern wherein she creates a false impression of me
... .
simply a person worthy of respect.

how far are you willing to go in trying to change her perception of you?

[Misto]

understood. it might, however, be indicative of a larger dynamic between the two of you.

Yes, that's my point exactly.  But I'm well aware of the dynamic at this point.  And I'm pretty sure it's happening exactly as I described it.

I'm as vulnerable to blind spots as anyone.  And when this first started happening, I was constantly searching myself to see if what she was claiming was true.  Maybe she had a point -- was I really acting so badly?  I guess it's possible, I thought. So I would take a conciliatory approach and chalk it up to some shortcoming I may have exhibited.  

But over time, as the dynamic repeated itself, I started to realize this was all coming from her head.  I began keeping mental notes about our interactions, and it soon became undeniable that she was inventing false facts and memories.  

I'm blessed with an excellent memory; it's essential to my work. And I think I'm a pretty honest person with myself. If I do something wrong, I try to own up to it.  If someone lets me know I acted badly, I honestly check myself for blind spots.  And if there's any reasonable chance I'm in the wrong, I apologize for it.

That's not what's happening here. I took that stance at first, but at some point I realized I was simply accommodating her pathology, and I was allowing myself to be unfairly denigrated. It was damaging our relationship, so I'm trying to address that now.

how far are you willing to go in trying to change her perception of you?

I'm not sure how to answer that question in the abstract.  I guess I'm going to have to start documenting things to prove I'm not crazy or delusional.

Early in our relationship, she complained about how her husband was doing that, and it was driving her nuts. At the time I gave her the benefit of the doubt, but now I see exactly why he was compelled to act that way.

[once removed]

heres what im driving at:

if i called you smug, you probably wouldnt pay much mind. im just a guy on the internet, dont really know you, and you wouldnt feel much need to defend yourself.

obviously she is an emotionally closer person in your life. her opinion is going to matter to you more. the principle is the same, i think.

the more peaceful option here, rather than fighting to change her perception of you, is to let it be. let her have her perception. arguing about it, frankly, might even be enforcing it.

if it matters, you can certainly still listen, and ask questions... .get at why she feels this way, or why shes bringing it up. thats a more peaceful alternative, i think.

the first skill i learned when i came to this board was to learn to stop JADEing. have you heard of it?

[Misto]

I've not heard of JADEing, but I'll try to do a search for it.

As for why I don't just let her have her perception:  Well, if she was just a casual acquaintance or a friend, I guess I wouldn't really care.  

To be perfectly honest, though, there's a big part of me that is holding out hope that we could still have a stable, long-term romantic relationship.

In my experience (and I've had at least two stable long-term romantic relationships), two people can't have that kind of relationship without a basic level of respect for each other.  And in this case in particular, I think she's subconsciously doing it to avoid forming any kind of healthy attachment to me. Think about it:  You're not going to be attracted or want to get attached to someone who's inferior in your mind.

I know that at some level she's desperate for healthy love and affection, and there have been times when she was able to receive that from me.  But after about a week or two of that (or whatever short time period), she starts to come up with these reasons why I'm inferior, and she starts losing interest... .

At that point, one of us breaks things off (we have both broken it off multiple times in the past), I start looking around for a new girlfriend, whereupon I always find one (oddly, other women don't seem to think I'm so inferior), and then all of a sudden Lara decides she likes me again... . It's a terrible cycle, and it's wreaking havoc on my life, not to mention the lives of the other women I date... .

[once removed]

To be perfectly honest, though, there's a big part of me that is holding out hope that we could still have a stable, long-term romantic relationship.

of course. im suggesting that this strategy is counterproductive to that goal.

two people can't have that kind of relationship without a basic level of respect for each other.

we cant make others respect us, and we can never win it by arguing with someone for it.

a person that respects himself is content to let others have their perception; they may not like it, but they dont let it define them. they conduct their lives (and relationships) in ways that respect themselves and others. more often than not, that is what garners respect.

more on not JADEing (and this subject) here: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=280750.0

do you respect her?

[Misto]

I really do try not to get into arguments with her.  I do my best to talk through issues in a neutral, respectful, noncombative fashion, but it's easier said than done.  She gets extremely defensive at the drop of a hat, and she almost always starts making accusations against me for some perceived wrongdoing.

Several months ago, I read "High Conflict Couple", and it was extremely helpful.  Those techniques are definitely powerful, but they can only go so far.    

I think you're right that I can never make her respect me, in which case it's probably never going to be more than an arms-length friendship from now on.

Do I respect her?  I absolutely respect her as a human being.  She has enormous talent and intelligence, and when she's doing well, she is capable of accomplishing great things.  She sees the world differently than most people do, and there's a lot to be learned from her perspective. She's certainly changed the way I think about people and relationships.

But I also recognize that she has serious psychological defects, and there are times when I feel negative emotions (anger, pity, frustration) that likely overshadow my respect for her... . I try to remind myself that her condition is not her fault, and that she isn't intentionally trying to hurt me, but at the same time I definitely feel hurt, disregarded, and taken advantage of.

She's a complicated person, and it's a complicated situation.

[truthbeknown]

Well, it's by choice, I am making the choice.

Frustrated is not the word, especially when you reside together (until about 6 weeks ago).

When things get "tough" with her and she does that, what do you do and what is the outcome mostly?

I would get devalued, had terrible things said to me, a real distortion of facts that reinforce the degrading, mixing half truth and half imagination.  They tend to stick around and pop up no matter how I would try to dispel them.

I would fight back and it would escalate to an "end game", get out, we can't do this etc.

I have a whole new perspective from digging in to the material on this site.

what is your new perspective?

[Sandb2015]

Truthbeknown,

I miss her, I still have the will to continue until a window opens wider (to enact my plan). I’m using whatever I’ve learned here.

I’ve let go of confusion, resentment, some fear, many codependent symptoms. I’m not living second to second.

I’m clearer and calmer now regardless of what she “says”, I listen and feel what she is feeling. I was a fearful, anxiety ridden mess a few weeks ago. Frantic every waking moment.

I’m working on the most difficult thing, projection. I’m getting better and it’s tough. I do more than wonder what she’s thinking and feeling about us. I “want” to know and I just can’t . I see her and let her know I’m there, that’s all I can do.

[truthbeknown]

Truthbeknown,

I miss her, I still have the will to continue until a window opens wider (to enact my plan). I’m using whatever I’ve learned here.

I’ve let go of confusion, resentment, some fear, many codependent symptoms. I’m not living second to second.

I’m clearer and calmer now regardless of what she “says”, I listen and feel what she is feeling. I was a fearful, anxiety ridden mess a few weeks ago. Frantic every waking moment.

I’m working on the most difficult thing, projection. I’m getting better and it’s tough. I do more than wonder what she’s thinking and feeling about us. I “want” to know and I just can’t . I see her and let her know I’m there, that’s all I can do.

You seem to be handling it maturely  and still maintaining hope.  Being in love with someone who essentially has an inability to self regulate is really tough.  I think there are challenges for those that live with a partner and have children that behave like this that are different from those of us that are on the beginning of a relationship with someone like this and feeling like we're on the outside looking seems like a different path with different circumstances.   It sounds like you are handling it fairly well though even though I can imagine there is a level of pain about it.   

I can't high- jack this thread with my story but i posted in the conflicting board/ group about it.