She told the pastor what happened and he offered marital counseling

[Red5]

Good Morning Formflier,

I’m a actually sitting here in Church writing this, the sermon is a series, “stuff my Mom said”... .“if you can’t say anything nice, then say nothing at all”... .the scripture supporting is James  chapter three, in which is found the passages about “taming the tongue”... .

There was a development last Friday... .out pastor called her and asked why she hasn’t been to a Church in over two months, .he had asked me a few weeks back what had happened, but I did not share details... .only that we had separated... .

She actually called me, as I was actually in the back of a C-130 “working”... .as I stepped into the starboard troop door to answer her call... .I thought wow, this must be important since she had blocked my number... .she says to me a few administrative things... .taxes and vet appointments... .then she tells me that Pastor P had called her... .and during the conversation... .she said that she told him what’s had happened... .I do not know exactly what she said or if it was factually accurate... .the pastor offered “marital counseling”... .which I said I would like to participate in... .

So wow,

She made me agree to only attend the eleven o’clock service as she wants to attend at the eight thirty service... .I agreed, .I am very glad she wants to come back to attend services even if we are not together... .

There is more that has happened... .more information... .I will come back later when I can write more... .

What are your thoughts on this... .would it make any difference to have our Church prayer circle, and as Pastor P now involved... .

Maybe this a water to wine moment here... .

Talk again soon,

Red5

[formflier]

Red5,

I'm in the middle of filing ethical complaints regarding my MC/BC experience with "the church".  So... .take any advice I give with the understanding of my perspective.

You seem to be in a much better place than I was at the time, so I doubt you would put up with any BS.

1.  In the first meeting or two I would encourage you guys to discuss "scope" and the pastors qualifications.  There needs to be a frank conversation about counseling with a pastor and a licensed mental health professional, such as a psychologist and/or psychiatrist.

2.  Stay away from labels... .at least medical labels.  Let medical professionals use them... pastors shouldn't and you guys shouldn't do that with the pastor.

3.  Have a conversation about "the truth" versus "different points of view".  I would acknowledge up front that many situations are seen so differently that a reasonable person would wonder if both people were actually there.

4.  Do no shrink in any way from discussing physical violence that was present in the home.  No excuses.  We should talk more about this... .especially how to understand the violence was an extension of uncontrolled anger. 

5.  Last... .ask for pastors thoughts on  what the Bible has to say and how that relates to his personal beliefs and counseling practice regarding people being responsible for their own stuff.  IN other words... .he someone is angry... .should that person work on their anger... .or should other people work hard on not "triggering" that anger.  (many pastors seem to suggest that husband should "serve" their families by "changing" so their families won't do (fill in the blank)

More later... interesting development.

FF

[empath]

Red5, interesting development... .  Part of my journey includes church, too. Is your church affliated with the UMC?

What you need to know is that abuse of a disabled adult is a state mandated reportable situation. Most clergy should know this. When I had to move churches, the pastor knew me and my h, and he asked what was up. I wasn't going to mess around any more with people who weren't safe and who weren't even following their own rules much less the laws of our state, so I told him that there had been violence in our home - including our daughter. He asked the right questions and said that marriage counseling is not recommended when there is abuse. (that's from licensed mental health professionals) Counseling can be a way for further abusive actions.

Since the violence against your son was the immediate cause for your separation, your pastor should know that if they want to do marriage counseling.

[formflier]

Since the violence against your son was the immediate cause for your separation, your pastor should know that if they want to do marriage counseling.

And that the violence is "unaddressed".

Empath,

Did you say all this in a joint session or ahead of time? 

My gut says that this should be an issue dealt with during the first session, with all parties present, vice something that goes back and forth in an odd game of telephone.

FF

[Cat Familiar]

There are “mandated reporters” and there are MANDATED REPORTERS who carry out their obligations without fail.

That Red’s wife’s assault of his disabled son might be a criminal act, adds to the discussion.

[empath]

Empath,

Did you say all this in a joint session or ahead of time? 

It wasn't in a joint session. The first time that I had to mention it to a pastor, my h was present for that. I learned more about the general protocol between that time and the subsequent times which were in private conversations for my own safety. I also think it is important that this kind of information be given in person rather than over the phone or something because most of our communication is non verbal, and it's such a hard thing to talk about.

[Red5]

empath writes, .Is your church affliated with the UMC?

Yes, we are members, for eight years now, First United Methodist.

So what we are saying here, if the Pastor knows, or it comes out in MC what transpired... .then he is under mandated obligation to report, as per the Churches denominational, pastoral guidelines,

I’ve not considered this.

On the way out of the sanctuary... .Pastor P always hugs my Son, and always answers his question he may have, usually steam locomotive related, and he always shakes mine as well, today... .I said to him “thank you Pastor P for calling “Q” ( my wife), he responded, “we are all here for you”... .and out the front door we went.

This is a small neighborhood, right here in our culdesac, across the street lives the choir director, and next door another long time member who manages the ushers... .which I usher about three times a year, we’ve lived here since we were married (2011),

What is written above, may explain why... .as in, I’ve been approached several times in Church by mostly senior members and asked how my (absent) wife is doing, as they all know about her /C/ diagnoses... .almost as if they were confirming that we are now separated... .

I try to mind my own buisiness and I really didn’t want to be anything other than humble in the congregation  ... .or else increase awareness of my and my wife’s marital situation... .so what happened was, I slipped a prayer request into the box, for “reconciliation, restoration, revival”... .I figured, what could it hurt, I do believe in the power of prayer... .as I do for all other manners of prayer request... .and I always put my name on it in case there are questions... .I’ve done this many times over the years, but this is the first time it was any simblance of personal,

So I guess that is what prompted the pastor to call my wife last week, as he had already asked me earlier... .and I told him we were separated but not why... .and he did say that he already knew (small neighborhood), but there was never anymore contact with me,

All that said, and what everyone is writing above... .and the fact that she told me on the phone on Friday morning... .“I told him what happened”... .

Her mother (foo) is also a member of the (F)UMC, she has been a member since 2006?, she attends another Church in the next County.

So this explains “why” foo mother in law took pictures of my wife’s bruised arm where my son supposedly pinched her, right before she hit him... .

Question... .should I call Pastor P?, and inquire further?

Thoughts?, .I’d like to know his thoughts... .and what he has to say about this situation outside the pulpit on this?

I understand his position as the Pastor, and what entails, everyone in the congregation knows my Son, they see him there with me every Sunday... .now I remember being called a few weeks back, by a female senior member, and she called my phone,  not my wife’s... .she said, “just wanted you to know that you and your wife have been on my heart and mind and I just wanted to know what was going on with her /C/ diagnoses, and how she was doing otherwise... .and I did tell her then, in so many words what had happened... .she told me she was very sorry for the both of us to hear this, and that she would put us on the ‘intercessory prayer list’, so the Church body has known since Thanksgivng... .like I said, this is a small community and as well neighborhood... .

I need to speak with our Pastor, I guess at some point... .this certainly sheds a new light on the offered marital counseling, .I cannot see Pastor P just sitting there in his chair and validating her in what happened, or else me either, .if this in some way,  could get her into the hands of a competent therapist... .resultant... .then it would truely be answered prayer, .certainly speaking with the Pastor would be far far different than her and myself alone... .she would have to tell the truth, and so would I... .this may be, if it even ever happens, a “smell the coffee” moment?

My head is spinning now,
Red5

 

[formflier]

Hey Red,

I would encourage you not to consider the implications of "it coming out"

Back to my thoughts on "process".  Be open about what actually happened... .let the rest of the pieces fall into place.

Vice trying to only let part of it out.

Thoughts?

FF

[empath]

When I was a younger child, we went to a Methodist church, and my grandparents' church was Methodist. I have fond memories of sitting 'round the dinner table at my grandparents' house and hearing them talk about how to love God and other folks well.

Seems like your church folk care about you all and want to help and support you all. They might not be all that surprised by the situation since you've been there for a long time. Prayer can be powerful in so many ways - even having peace in the midst of craziness of life.

Since she claimed that she had told them what happened, you could be open about it too.

One step at a time.

[Red5]

*I would encourage you not to consider the implications of "it coming out".

*Back to my thoughts on "process".  Be open about what actually happened... .let the rest of the pieces fall into place.

I agree Formflier... .I whole heartedly agree,

I am a firm believer in the truth, the only way to real healing, is via the path of truth.

This is not a good situation at all, best to let it all be privy, we have to start the healing process, wherever that may lead... .

What does my spirit tell me, I think there will be one, maybe two sitttings with our Pastor, but I think, that when the coffee is ready, that my wife will retreat, and walk out, she may even color the Pastor himself black, .I hope not, but her history shows that this her modus operandi, .the Pastor represents an authoritative figure and as well a male figure, .if he were to press her, even a little, and try to get her to see things other than in the lens she sees the world around her, .she may become very defensive... .she has done this with several of her former female direct reports when she was still working i her career, .we know that persons with BPD will do whatever is necessary to protect themselves... .

If MC ever even happens... .she would certainly be exposing herself, and I can’t at this moment seeing her proceeding in that,

There is no way she could explain to Pastor P that she was correct in her actions... .neither me, but in order to move (process) forward... .I am completely willing to take full responsibility for my 50% of this,

Do you think I should place a call to Pastor P?, or just ‘hold short’ for now, .

Red5   

[Red5]

Since she claimed that she had told them what happened, you could be open about it too.

One step at a time.

Yes I agree, no rush here, .I grew up in the Church of Christ, .now I am a Methodist : )

It works for me, .I too remember sitting at the breakfast or else dinner/supper table with Granny and Grampa, perhaps some aunts and uncles present, also talking of the “Lords will” for us all... .good stuff !
 
I can’t help but wonder... .what she may have told our Pastor, .and the fact that she ‘uncloaked’ long enough to place a call to me at 10:00 am on a Friday to inform me of such.

She knew where I was and what I was doing... .she could just as well sent me an email as she had instructed me to do if I were to need to contact her... .  but no... .it was a morning phone call... .to a blocked number she would have had to unblock to even call... .she knew I was even inside an aircraft at that time... .so I wonder her motives... .is she actually considering meeting with our Pastor,?

As usual, she is a great mystery in her actions and intentions... .

Red5

[formflier]

I think your best strategy/tactic is to be open yet nonchalant about the possibility of MC with the Pastor.  Let her be the one "pushing" for it.

Once you guys all get in a room together, then hash out details.

FF

[Red5]

I think your best strategy/tactic is to be open yet nonchalant about the possibility of MC with the Pastor.  Let her be the one "pushing" for it.

Once you guys all get in a room together, then hash out details.

FF

I will call him in the morning, to maybe go by his office and talk to him, in regards to subject... .

And I will use your pointers (bullets) above FF,

Thanks Man!

Red5

[empath]

I am a firm believer in the truth, the only way to real healing, is via the path of truth.

Agreed. The Way, the Truth, and the Life... . 

[formflier]

I will call him in the morning, to maybe go by his office and talk to him, in regards to subject ... .

And I will use your pointers (bullets) above FF,

Thanks Man!

Red5

Hey... .there is nothing particularly wrong with going by to see him or calling, but I would lean more towards setting up a time for you both to go chat.

Resist the urge to over function... over plan... .get everything perfect.

In fact... .since she was the one that kinda set this thing in motion... .you may just want to let her "stay in the lead". 

Your part is showing up with an open mind.

FF

[Red5]

*Hey... .there is nothing particularly wrong with going by to see him or calling, but I would lean more towards setting up a time for you both to go chat.

*Resist the urge to over function... over plan... .get everything perfect.

*In fact... .since she was the one that kinda set this thing in motion... .you may just want to let her "stay in the lead".  

Your part is showing up with an open mind.

Roger, and I agree,

That said, I still wonder just what she devulged to him, when we’ve talked about what happened... .on two occasions now, phone calls since she moved out, both times, she was “defending herself”... .in fact, she told me, “and I’d do it again”... .yeah... .

; (

So I wonder... .just what exactly she said to the Pastor, .I’m sure it caught her off guard when he called her, and he also did not tell me he was going to call her... .which is none of my buisiness anyways (?).

I know... .I need to not “go rushing in” here, .must be patient.

The Pastor is a very busy man, it is a rather large congregation... .always a lot going on, frankly... .I don’t know when the man even has time to sleep, .there are two other associate Pastors, one is a female.

I’m going to just sleep on it tonight, .big stuff going on at work, that’s where my mind needs to be right now anyways.

I tell you though, when we were in the back of “166762” Friday morning, doing our thing’... .and my phone vibrated in my jacket pocket, and I saw it was her... .I was sure surprised... .as I’ve been bansished, blamed... .blocked and black since the event.

As I said, I would have thought that this information would have been relayed in an email, not over the phone... .and she opened with, we need to talk about taxes, and the cats need to go see the vet (what... .really)... .then she delivers the Pastor called me pieces... .

... .if, .we do actually do this, and there is sincerity... .on both our parts, maybe, .by Grace, .something amazing could actually happen, .the Lord works in mysterious ways... .

Thanks again Formflier,

Red5

[empath]

Another thought... .  What she relayed to you may not be an accurate representation of the conversation and the offer of counsel.

Bringing up the the incident together with another person is likely to trigger a shame reaction in your wife. It wasn't helpful when I did it which is why I changed to talking privately to the pastor.

[AskingWhy]

Red, before considering to undergo any counseling endeavour--with a clergyman or a counselor--it's important to consider that pwBPD can be very manipulative of an inexperienced minister or mental health professional.

In brief, years ago, my uBPD H and I decided to go to marriage counseling.  H considered me "stubborn and uncooperative," and not wanting to contribute to the marriage.  Upset and crying after a particularly horrific BPD argument (accusations, divorce threats, H breaking objects, etc.), I phoned a T on my own and arranged for a private session with her.  At the end of the session, where I was weeping and described H's dysregulations, punching holes in the wall and upending furniture, she was very sympathetic and even offered to give me the name of a divorce attorney.  The T then met one-on-one alone with H.  Something happened during that session. In the next session with H and me, the tone of the T changed toward me.  She was siding with my H.  She fell for his side of the story hook, line and sinker.  H and I were sitting down on the office sofa.  I was weeping and shouted about the abuse my H heaped on me daily, and the T stood up, shook an accusatory finger at me and bellowed, "You do not shout at him in this office!  This is supposed to be a safe place.  Do you hear me?  If you don't stop this immediately, you are going to lose this man who loves you!"  All the way home, H had a smug look on his face, validated by the T's determination that his W was the unstable one.

After I immediately quit counseling, H said, "You see?  You don't want to listen to what the therapist has to say.   You think you know everything.  You're a b*tch!"

All I could think was, "Gee, LCSW, you're a professional and you could not see abuse if you tripped over it.  Thanks for nothing.  That was $300 wasted."

It is easy for any woman to accuse her H of being an abuser and there is a gender bias, so be wary of a wife not telling the whole story to a counselor and, instead, making you out to be the abuser and the crazy one.

Remember, pwBPD are chameleons.

 

[Enabler]

Hey Red,

I'm exited for you and see this as another chapter in your journey.

My reservation is that in my experience counseling works well for people who share the same reality, but differ on how to deal with it or don't know how to overcome emotional hurdles. They need a frame with which to put around an issue such that they can move forwards. e.g. H has had an affair, he has shown remorse but W doesn't know how to go about creating a container for the affair such that she can trust and be vulnerable again. How does she go about forgiving him for the FACT that he had intimacy with another woman. The facts are acknowledged and accountability is present and there is a desire to move forwards.

Your W may well have re-written the facts such that she doesn't feel she needs to be accountable for her actions e.g. she was attacked by him and was defending herself. Ascertaining what she believes to be the facts, and even what she believes are the causes of her current separated status ought to be a priority... .could you even hear something resembling "I left him because I found his behavior intolerable, it broke my heart to leave him and my step-son, but I had to do it because I found the family atmosphere impossible to live with, I did it for us"... .As others have mentioned, a therapeutic environment is often used as an opportunity to triangulate the therapist to take sides (I would imagine especially so in a non-professional Church based counselling environment). She may be looking for someone to validate her version of events... .and you'd very much be in a he said she said environment.

You clearly need to ascertain whether or not the basic recollection of facts line up before either of you try to work through the framework of how to deal with 'it'., and beware the Karpman... .Biblical counsellors are unlikely to be trained in Unicorn behavior.

Enabler

[formflier]

Red5,

I would wait until you are together... .let her go first... .even ask follow up questions before (and if) you share your view of the breakup.

It's one thing to "overfunction" and make sure a pwBPD is never exposed to shame... .it's another for each to state their points of view... .and let each person deal with their own emotions.

Likely a good idea for pastor to see things more clearly... sooner... .

Let her go first... .listen for the emotions... .the facts matter, but emotions matter more.

FF

[Red5]

FF,

*Let her go first... .even ask follow up questions before (and if) you share your view of the breakup.

I understand "my" version of things will be quite different… and in the environment of Pastors office, it may be best for me to NOT share, as in let Pastor P connect the dots, and if asked, be very careful about what I say, so as to not trigger 'pw/BPD's' shame, thus leading to a dysregulation in an attempt at triggered defense… right there on the carpet in the Pastor's office, and then leading to a "runaway" extinction burst, as is her modus operandi.

*Make sure a pwBPD is never exposed to shame.

Key !… crucial absolutely, also echo's along with what emapth wrote.

*Likely a good idea for pastor to see things more clearly... .sooner... .

Yes, I don't know what she told him, only that she said "I told him what happened"… that could be a "variation" of rewritten ___ so who knows. This is why I want to talk to him first, on my own, and use FF's checklist, general stuff, like what to expect of pastoral counseling, and what the guidelines, and boundaries are, in regards to his position as the Pastor of the Congregation, this must be handled with concern, and very carefully, I understand his position, and responsibilities… this is completely new territory to me.
*no blaming
*no she did this, I did that
*"neutrality"
*we are here to heal, not judge or destroy
*guidelines and a path forward to healing, and restoration, reconcillation

^right track?^

*Let her go first... .listen for the emotions... .the facts matter, but emotions matter more.

If we actually ever got to that point, 1v1 in the Pastor's office… and as FF says, "let her lead the way"… another reason to meet with him first, to set this guideline, as in, I'm hands off the tiller here, I want her to set the pace, and tone of this, she will tell her own story, and she will present herself accordingly, I have no doubt there... .a "pre-mission brief", and only that until we are all together…

The Pastor will draw his own conclusions, and from there he will do what Pastor's do I guess.

As Enabler says… in regards to 'unicorns', and 'Karpman'… this is new territory to me.

She will surely set the tone right off the bat, and she will say (emotion) what she wants to accomplish… if anything at all, and from that, we can establish a process to move forward with, or else to discharge this… I know I have to let her be her… and just listen, even if I get attacked, she has to feel completely safe in this, and as well validated, if she doesn't, its over before it even started.

She is very angry, she feels victimized, she "has done nothing wrong" in her mind, I have no intentions of challenging this, I am just going to listen, and watch what happens… and then try to pick up the pieces that may still be able to be repaired… the key is, she has to feel safe, and not under attack, in any way… or this wont go two feet down the launch rail.

I have my doubts about it ever happening anyways… we shall see, and she will set the pace on it happening, so she doesn't feel controlled, or pushed.

The BLUF is, Pastor P is a longstanding servant in good standing with and of the Church, he has decades of experience, he fills a very unique billet, and responsibility to hundreds of parishioners in our Church… I have to say, it will be interesting to me to see how this transpires, if at all, he has a lot on his plate, all the twenty-four hours of the day, for him to have placed that call, well, I'm glad he did… as I said, we shall see what happens now.

Thanks for all your help !

I will be leaning on ya'll through this… on day at a time, 'steady as she goes'... .

Red5

[Enabler]

Remember the Karpman... .stay in the middle, DO NOT GET SUCKED TOWARDS THE PERPETRATOR CORNER, either she wants resolution and you staying in the middle will expose herself to herself, or she will become frustrated that "it didn't work" and Pastor won't look to rescue her from you. Incidentally the latter may happen as Pastor tries to get the lay of the land.

Agree with FF, allow her to show her hand first and gain knowledge of the direction she wants to take it. You have time and patience to watch this play out without needing to have any agenda.

Enabler

[Red5]

*(Karpmen) Stay in the middle, DO NOT GET SUCKED TOWARDS THE PERPETRATOR CORNER,

*Either she wants resolution and you staying in the middle will expose herself to herself, or she will become frustrated that "it didn't work" and Pastor won't look to rescue her from you.

*Incidentally the latter may happen as Pastor tries to get the lay of the land.

*Agree with FF, allow her to show her hand first and gain knowledge of the direction she wants to take it. You have time and patience to watch this play out without needing to have any agenda.

This was the reference in the sermon just yesterday… James 1:19, My dear brothers and sisters, take note of this: Everyone should be quick to listen, slow to speak and slow to become angry,

I wish I could have done this years ago… “slow to speak”,

As I wrote, she is "going to be herself"… I've no doubt in my mind… "The Lord works in mysterious ways".

Patience is key here... .

Red5

[Cat Familiar]

I've got a bit of a different take on the situation. Currently you're not on a level playing field, as she's told him something of her side of the story and you haven't.

My feeling is that you might tell him the reason that you decided that she could no longer be around your son and leave it at that.

[formflier]

This is a marathon... .not a sprint. 

I think the most important thing Red can do is get himself in an emotional space to hear difficult things without reacting... .

Expect to be shocked if she fesses up to actually what happened... .you need to have something ready to say... and be able to stay relaxed.

Expect to be shocked if she tries to hand some or all of it to your son or someone else.  Let her take it as far as she wants to... .let the P take it as far as he wants to.  I wouldn't try to jump in front of it until/unless you get asked.

And then... .focus on being "bemused"... ."full of wonder"... ."searching"

"Pastor... .I'm struggling to imagine how we work through this.  (use her name)... .I'm thankful to hear and understand her point of view.   

(use her name)... .would you like to understand my point of view?

Be prepared to be silent for a while. 

Pastor... .how to does a couple (take it third person) begin to heal a marriage if they don't understand how each of them perceives events?

Here is the thing Red.  She has done something somewhat out of character with the offer of MC.   My goal is to help you figure out if there is a genuine effort there or if the effort is a poor use of your time.

FF

[Only Human]

This thread has reached its posting limit and is now locked. Part 2 is here https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=333860.msg13034085#msg13034085