How do I have a relationship with someone like this?

[Mirsa]

Hi everyone,

I've been posting and reading here more actively the past couple of months.  Some of you may know that my 17yo BPD DD moved out about six months ago in order to have an intimate relationship with her 21 yo boyfriend in her father's home, something I would not permit.  We have barely spoken since, just one lunch, and a few texts, which have not been very positive.  

I'd like to stay in touch with her, at least in some way, but I find it incredibly difficult to bring myself to do it.  To be honest, it's much easier to have almost no contact with her.   On one level, I'm happier and more at peace.  On the other level, I feel guilty about not interacting with her, even though I really dread it.  

Here's why.  My DD is not a nice person.  She is a full-blown narcissist and she has no empathy, no remorse.  She will NEVER admit that she is wrong or does anything wrong.  She cannot take criticism of any kind.  She spins stories to make herself appear to be the victim and then really believes her own lies.  She uses and manipulates people and is mean, bullying, and nasty.  She doesn't care how much she hurt me and her sister by abandoning our family and then blaming us for it with stories and false accusations.   She posts sexualized photos of herself on-line despite our repeated requests for her to not do this...not her problem that we are embarrassed by them (I'm a school administrator for god's sake!).  

Her photos, lies, criticisms, blaming, are hurtful and unkind.  She will never see this and never care.  I've come to accept this reality.  However, she is still my daughter.  

My question is, how the heck do I have a relationship with someone like this?  It won't be a real relationship, because I won't be able to trust her, be honest with her about my feelings, or be safe emotionally with her.   In the past, I've cut off contact with other family members who are like this (my mother and a sister).  It runs in the family, and I understand it's hereditary.  My poor cousin has a 3yo son who is exhibiting this family pattern already.
Yet, even though I cognitively understand that it's genetic and her brain doesn't work correctly, it's still terribly hurtful to interact with someone like this.   But she's still my daughter, and it's terribly hurtful to NOT interact with her.

Blessedly, I'm no longer living with her and no longer responsible for her.  That is a gift.  But, I still feel as though I'm in a no-win situation here.  I know a third option is to have the relationship she'd like with me, in which I praise and validate her, tell her she can do no wrong, and how wonderful she is, how sorry I am for any imagined slight, etc. etc.  But hey, she has her father for that, and since it's not authentic, it's not really an option for me.  However, I worry that anything less than the adulation she expects and feels entitled to will be inadequate and lead to perpetual criticism by her.  I'm so torn between feeling that I 'should' be compassionate and have a relationship with her and then on the other hand, absolutely dreading exposing myself to her.  I lose either way.  I wish I could be like Mother Theresa or someone and be perfectly compassionate and loving towards this broken being, but I can't seem to quite rationalize myself into feeling that way.  Wish I could be a 'better' person.  But the gaslighting, little digs, and sneak attacks are really triggering and upsetting for me.  I have to journal, meditate, etc. etc. to counterbalance them when they occur, and it can take days for me to re-establish some mental equilibrium and happiness.  

Help!  Is there an option I'm not seeing?  

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[wendydarling]

Hi there Mirsa

It is difficult, I hear how conflicted you feel. Of course you want a relationship with your DD, an emotionally safe one for you. Teens are often in their own soup at the best of times, as you know well working with them at school. With my DD at that age I'd focus on doing things together, hey do you want to go see this film, bowling with a group, art exhibition, music concert... event type stuff that took the focus off her, me, difficult dynamics…we met in the grey, wisemind, something we could share, something positive... stay connected. It sounds like your DD may 'hang onto you' as she moves through to adulthood.

Are you finding the resources here helpful for you? I've more thoughts and will come back, dinner is calling.

WDx

[Mutt]

Hi Amira’s,



Id like to join wendydarling and welcome you to bpdfamily. It’s difficult having a r/s with a pwBPD one of the criterion is chaotic and unstable r/s’s because they haven’t developed that r/s stage.

Your D21 is wired differently. I don’t agree with validating everything validate the valid don’t validate the invalid. I’d suggest to look at your boundaries we can give you help here if you share which areas that you need help with.

She is a full-blown narcissist and she has no empathy, no remorse.  She will NEVER admit that she is wrong or does anything wrong.  She cannot take criticism of any kind.  She spins stories to make herself appear to be the victim and then really believes her own lies. 

The pwBPD in my life is my ex wife I use to think that she was the strongest person that I know - what she displays externally. Remove the mask and you have a person that is scared of the world and the people in it.

No doubt it’s difficult to talk to a pwBPD when they’re projecting, changing stories or blame shifting. Read as much as you can about the disorder there’s a reason why she acts the way that does.

If you come to understand the traits you can become indifferent to them - this takes time and it doesn’t mean to invalidate what you feel. You’re allowed to feel the way that you do - talk too us here there’s a lot of people that share similar stories and can offer guidance and support. It helps to talk.

Communication Skills - Don't Be Invalidating

[Lollypop]

Hi

My question is, how the heck do I have a relationship with someone like this?  It won't be a real relationship, because I won't be able to trust her, be honest with her about my feelings, or be safe emotionally with her.

I have a relationship with my son28 because I chose to have one. I wanted him in my life and to do this I had to change my approach.

It is a real relationship. It’s a healthier relationship because I now have better interaction skills to better communicate. This often means me listening more. I don’t have to tell my son how I’m feeling because how I’m feeling is my responsibility. In the same way, I’m not responsible how anybody else feels.

I cannot trust my son. I have no expectations of  him.

We are happier because I have control over myself. I do this because my son28 can’t.  Crazy isn’t it?

LP

[FaithHopeLove]

I also have a real relationship with my son
because I accept him for who he is and don't try to make him into who I wish he was. It isn't an easy relationship. It is a real relationship. For me radical acceptance is the key.

[Mirsa]

Hi everyone,

thank you all for your replies SO much.  The link to the Validating information was helpful, and it brought me to an older thread on the topic as well, which I'm reading through (it's long).  

I think I've had a breakthrough this morning in my thinking as well.  Yesterday she had a text conversation with her sister about me that really upset her sister.  It also reinforced how sick she is in her thinking.  She was melodramatic, self-centered, black&white thinking, and dishonest/skewed thinking.  As always, it made me appreciate not living with her!     She has blocked me, and basically she sounds so hurt by my distance (all my fault of course) that she isn't interested in having contact with me, despite that being painful for her (victimization).  I'm okay with this, but plan to send her an email and try to re-open the door again.  

I've been waiting to reestablish contact with her until I felt that I could communicate with her from a place of compassion, since the way I would normally communicate with a healthy person is definitely not working for her.  I know you all get it:  she cannot accept reality and when I try to to correct her thinking, she perceives it as a threat.  

I've been torn by feeling that the 'radical acceptance' suggested here is infantilizing her in a way, as I'll be treating her as a toddler basically.  It won't be what I consider a 'real' relationship (a two-way, loving, trusting, reciprocal relationship).  I don't have a relationship like that with anyone else in my life...
except one person:  my elderly aunt (who is a motherlike figure in my life) and who also has...Alzheimers.  

So, that's the key for me.  I have to think of my DD as having a type of Emotional Alzheimers.  My DD doesn't think clearly, misremembers things, and correcting her is pointless, because her thinking is so misguided.  She can't help it; her brain isn't working right.  She's anxious, lashes out easily, and acts superior as a defense mechanism.  All of this, except the superiority, is just like my aunt.  Except my aunt is one of the most loving and kind people I know, whereas my DD is a selfish, non-empathetic jerk.  Aside from that little detail (haha) they are pretty much alike right now in how their brains work.

And since I love my aunt and remember how kind and giving she has been to me and my children for so many years, I am patient, validate her feelings, listen to her repeated stories, don't point out what she's forgotten, etc. and do my best to calm her.  

I think this could work for me, to remember my DD is similar in this way.  She appears normal, but her brain is broken.  And like my aunt, she has no idea.  This could help me approach my DD from a place of compassion, which I've been trying to figure out how to do.   And as with Alzheimer's, nothing I do will change it...it's incurable. 

thoughts?  

[livednlearned]

Radical acceptance is also managing expectations for the relationship, which it sounds like you are doing. 

With SD21 I focus on keeping my cup of compassion full, no exceptions. The cup is for me, and I work all day filling it or keeping it filled. I do best with SD21 when that cup is full to the brim. I feel it draining when I spend too much time with her so I limit our time together, and like wendydarling mentioned, I pick things that are enjoyable for me, usually activities that don't go much past an hour. I also keep my conversation casual nothing too arousing, and validate when there is something genuine to validate. I find it hard to validate when my cup of compassion isn't filled because otherwise it comes off as hollow.

There are other skills that can help keep that cup filled, like knowing what my limits are and figuring out how to skillfully put distance between us, either literal or figurative, when she is trying to negatively engage.

SD21 is both aggressive and passive-aggressive, and for some reason the shadowy stuff is more triggering and also more challenging for me to deal with. When she is being aggressive I feel it's more clear how to respond, it's the underhanded moves that throw me off and require help from a therapist and friends here. I'm learning to need no explanation when I want to tap out and no longer be part of whatever it is she's using me for. I've learned to say things like, "I'm having a change of heart. Let's turn back so I can get home and take care of myself."  When she wants to stir up a deep conversation that typically leads to emotional arousal (and everything that goes with it), I now respond, "That's not something I have experience with. Do you feel comfortable talking about this with your T"?

Also, I do think SD21 is much better than when she was at 16. That age is one of the hardest for lots of teens and for BPD sufferers it must be that much more challenging. I hope you continue taking care of yourself and making yourself a priority in a relationship where you aren't likely to be one 

[Mirsa]

not sure how to delete this

[Mirsa]

SD21 is both aggressive and passive-aggressive, and for some reason the shadowy stuff is more triggering and also more challenging for me to deal with. When she is being aggressive I feel it's more clear how to respond, it's the underhanded moves that throw me off and require help from a therapist and friends here.

I totally agree!  The rage and direct attacks are so much more obvious and I can use calmness, etc.  It's the passive-aggressive sneak attacks and gaslighting that throw me off, make me doubt myself, and make me dread spending time with her.  I have a feeling I'll be working on that for a long, long time.