Things looked awesome but now they are done...again.

[Doughboy]

Private message I sent to a Board Admin on December 21, 2018 is below.  After that I will update the situation...which took a turn way South for me.

"Long time no type. I will keep this short. 
My person from the past and I got back together in July and everything was actually really, really good between us, and still is honestly.  She was really good also, until Sunday.  She spiraled, had the pills in her hand, 1st time for this level of spiral, and had to be taken to the Hospital where she self committed.  She came home on Wednesday and will shortly begin an intensive DBT therapy program, 6.5 hrs a day for a 6 weeks and then transition to 3hrs once a week while seeing her regular Counselor once a week. 

At the Hospital she and I spoke with a Psychiatrist for a bit and he spoke to her alone later.  I described some things from the past and and said very calmly that there might be traits of BPD and I want to be sure that is covered as a cause and then eliminated if possible/not there. He asked her if she knew what that meant and she said she had read about it briefly but was unsure.  This guy explained it to her in the most calm, caring, amazing way.  She put her hand on my arm and said "You just perfectly described my life."  I almost cried but also felt a wash of relief come over me.

He met with her alone and when I came back later in the day she showed me a book he loaned her after there meeting.  She had taken 2 pages of notes and said she may have finally found a way to peace.  That book..."I hate you - Don't leave me".  She was telling me about what she liked about it and what was relevant and then just paused, looked at me, and said, "you have this book don't you?".  I replied yes...for about 2 years.

So, we are in a great place, she is excited, her Mother is finally realizing I am not the issue/enemy.  She is adamant about me being a part of all of this therapy so I can help her and be an advocate with her Family and friends.  I know I need to polish up my communication skills and get back in touch with my Therapist I used after the breakups."

Well...as of 15 days ago I am the enemy again.  To her, her Mom, her friends, allegedly all of her Therepists/Counselors I am an Emotional Abuser, gaslighter, manipulator, and I told her to kill herself in a text message on Dec 15th.  I have never cared about her well being since her incident and only care about myself. 

I was told, by her, end of January that she was seeing the BPD and beliving it.  Once she started the 3hrs a week group and seeing her longtime Counselor(LTC) once a week that changed.  She claims that no one at the Hospital or the DBT Therapy says she has BPD, her longtime Counselor told her she did not have it when she mentioned it.  According to the LTC all of her problems are just depression, anxiety, but the big issue is the ADHD and being a Highly Sensitive Person.

I told her that if she belived these things about me and we were done then we are done.  I told her I would let her daughters, 16.5 &18.5, know that we could not longer communicate for our own mental health...She freaked and told me not to cut off her children as they loved me, I loved them, and I was a good influence on them/important to them.

There was no contact for a bit and then out of the blue I get a text accusing me of deleting all of the text off her phone for 12/15/18 because I must have been afraid of being held accountable for what I typed.  I replied that I never had her phone and even if I did I did not know the password to unlock it.  I told her to contact her friend and her Mother and see which one of them did it.  I also asked if she was aware I could not delete texts on her phone from MY phone.  Have not heard a peep since then, of course.

So there you have it. The issues are somewhat being addressed through Therapy - Finally.  Things went to pot again and we are apart.  4th time.  I do not see her contacting in the future like before due to the things she has said but I also know that she could, and most like will, probably aroung August if the pattern stays the same.  I can't let it happen again.  I have heard enough empty promises and have been demonized too many times.  The damage done this time is severe and I do not see a world where it can be fixed.

Just sharing I guess that sometimes even when the help is being got, and the issues identified, the level of shame, sadness, and hurt experienced can still cause them to push us away.  I say this becasue I do not feel she believes the things she has described me as.  If she did she would not want me to be in contact with her daughters.

There are obviously so many other little details, etc.  If anyone has a questions or opinions fire away.  I have the time.

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[Doughboy]

Btw, no idea what caused the spiral but it developed into a bunch of angry texts and then she finally said she was getting a couple bottles of wine and going to her room to watch tv since she could not communicate with me succesfully.  I told her to be careful as that amount of alcohol with her weight and being upset could be dangerous.  She told me to F off and a few other things. I frustradedly said , "fine go drink your self into a stupor", she replied "F off, I will", I replied "be careful you don't hurt yourself when drunk", she replied, "Like you care anyway".  I at this point was emotionally done typed, "You are going to end up in a hospital bed or coffin if you are not careful".  <--- This is apparantly me telling her to kill herself.  I also discovered that about 10 minutes before this text she had Googled "How much Hydrocone to Overdose". 

[once removed]

wow. it sounds like things really came to a head.

how are you holding up? has anything happened since?

[Copycat2018]

Hello Doughboy,

Thank you for sharing your story. It surely gives me a perspective with my challenges.

You have held up amazingly during this tumult and i give you a lot of credit for that.
While it is hard that she is not really getting better her family seems very confused also. That complicates matters.

You must wonder what is going on inside a person to have such an " output" for sure.

Well this is quite a challenge and you must be very firmly committed to helping her or seeing her through this to stay on this rough ride.
It is a good idea to step back a little and not take it very personally from her or her family.

Are any of the kids affected by this mental illness?
Are they affected by her personality as their mother?

I wish you best of luck!

[Copycat2018]

Also, you are saying the "damage has been done" i assume you mean how much this hurt you.
I sometimes view my similar feeling from a  distance, as these people ,BPDs are not responsible for their actions and what they say or do like a regular person.

 Try not to let it get to you so much and consider it a challenge to " holding on to yourself" while in contact with these challenging situations.

[2020]

Hey Doughboy, how are things now? I just wanted to say how much I can relate to your situation through your words. I am roughly at the same spot as you. My partner has finally had some mental health professionals suggest she may have 'Borderline Traits', but her acknowledgement of this varies from week to week. She is on a very long waiting list for DBT and this is frustrating. In the meantime the alcohol abuse/coping mechanism continues, as do the ambulance call outs and overnight hospital stays.

That sounds like a very intensive DBT program. I am curious as to which country you are in which offers this? Also, how expensive is such a thing? My partner will (hopefully) begin a twice a week program which I thought was intensive. I say "Hopefully" as that is all it is. I have placed a lot of faith in this; that it will 'fix things'. Perhaps that is the problem? I wonder whether this will ever go away. I felt relief earlier this year that my partner may be finally on the path to good health and happiness. I suspect we need to accept there will be lots of ups and downs along the way.

[Doughboy]

wow. it sounds like things really came to a head.

how are you holding up? has anything happened since?

Sorry I never got back to anyone. I have been trying to do all of this alone and be personally strong.  Was doing pretty good until recently. 

Your update is as follows:
Everything above happened at the end of Feb/March 1st.  No direct contact from her since.  On April 2nd, her Ex husband texted me and let me know that she still had a very personal and romantic item, from me to her, on the wall in her main room and another above her bed...VERY personal and specific to us.

On May 3rd, just after our bdays which are 2 days in a row, I slipped and sent a message to her on facebook Messenger...to an work account she kept me unblocked on last time and the only place this time also, saying "Happy Belated bday. Hope all is well."  She admitted that she kept that connection last time so she could stay in contact with me subversively so I assume that is why it is the only place she didn't block me this time also.  It remained unread until June 12th which was a night we were supposed to go to a concert together.  A few things happened on the 13th, 14th, and 15th that made me wonder so I checked and she read the message on the 12th when the concert was happening.
The afternoon of the 15th I sent her another message -

"Xxxx, I know you have seen the above message very recently...the night of the concert we were supposed to attend together.
Since this page is the only place you haven't blocked me (just like last time), and since I see LinkedIn sent a notification that you switched jobs a month ago, there is only one reason I can think of that you have not blocked me here.
If I am correct then just come here, let me know what you want to do, try, or what you are thinking.
If I am not correct then just block me from here so it can all be over for good and the only remaining connection between us can be severed.
You know I never wanted any of this to be this way between us."

She read that one on Friday the 21st and as of right now she has not responded or blocked.  Who knows what she is thinking...

[Doughboy]

Hello Doughboy,

Well this is quite a challenge and you must be very firmly committed to helping her or seeing her through this to stay on this rough ride.
It is a good idea to step back a little and not take it very personally from her or her family.

Are any of the kids affected by this mental illness?
Are they affected by her personality as their mother?

I wish you best of luck!

I am very committed to her and understand the root cause of the issues in her real life experiences and how the disorder normally develops related to same.  I will take everything personally from her Mother as that cold hearted, stoic, enabling, avoidant woman is part of the problem.

The kids show no real signs related to BPD.  The older daughter, 19, has pretty bad anxiety and has chosen to not stay in contact.  The younger one, 17, is a little closed off emotionally as a protection measure but she contacts me regularly...I figured it would have faded by now but the Ex husband/Dad says that she really likes me and probably shares the same amount of stuff with me as she does with him.  He encouraged me to stay in contact as long as possible for me.

Girls definitely have been affected by Mom's behavior. Both in there daily lives and her "doings" with me.  Has been hard for them.

[Doughboy]

Hey Doughboy, how are things now?  ..."snip...

That sounds like a very intensive DBT program. I am curious as to which country you are in which offers this? Also, how expensive is such a thing?

I am in the USA. Not sure on the cost since it is covered by Insurance.  At least it was.  She switched jobs a month ago apparently and I am not sure what the new job offers...many have a wait period before it becomes active.

It is a long process, DBT, and I have no idea on how serious she still is, if she believes again in the BPD diagnosis, or if she is even going.

[Doughboy]

So why am I here again?  I am lost and not sure what to think or do.  I know I should just block that work facebook account and be done with it everything but I "know"  she does not really consider me the things she called me.  I "know" that keeping the very personal things on the wall for 2+ minimum months after saying them is not something you would do if were, "Never going to engage with you again".

She has taken no action on the last message...did not reach out (option #1), and/or, did not block (option #2).  She took the unwritten 3rd option which to do nothing.  A Counselor, that I met at a "Family Connections" seminar and is well versed in BPD and DBT, told me on Friday that, in her OPINION, she will respond but is trying to figure out how.  That she has to swallow a lot of harsh words and accusations to do that and that ultimately she may not be able to but to give her space to process what has to be a little overwhelming...me telling her I would be open to a conversation.

Any opinions on all of this mess?

[GaGrl]

This is so difficult. I'm sure you feel at sea and are looking for land. Please know we can help and support you as you work through this.

You are right on target that the DBT work is hard and long.

Do you think she is being careful in what she says as she responds? Or do you think she doesn't yet know how to respond?I

[Doughboy]

Do you think she is being careful in what she says as she responds? Or do you think she doesn't yet know how to respond?I

-I think she wants to reach out and come back to me. 
-I think she does not know how to do that because doing that means she has to admit, to everyone, that the things she said about me were exaggerations and/or lies.  Coming back to me would mean that the Victim position she thrived in, and that was so often enabled by family and friends, would be gone forever.
-I think the Counselor is correct that she needs her space.  I was "fine" for over 3.5 months but now my anxiety is up thanks to having to wait for action for 5ish days. She probably had no idea I would even consider it until 5ish days ago but I feel, based on the contradictions I have mentioned, that she never meant the things that were said and it was the shame and sadness from the initial Therapy that caused her to project.

[MidLifCrysis1]

No doubt this is all very trying...I salute your resolve.

I just wanted to comment about one aspect of your story, which occurred to me may be relevant insight.

As for the "working up to responding to you" and maybe why not yet or whatever else...one angle on the situation that my particular BP constantly grapples with is "Why should/how can I forgive him AGAIN? Isn't he just going to do [thing] again?"

Of course, you can see the irony here, but the point I want to make is simply that she may be running through that particular internal struggle and is still mid-argument with herself - a bit like Gollum/Smeagol from Lord of the Rings.

[Doughboy]

No doubt this is all very trying...I salute your resolve.

I just wanted to comment about one aspect of your story, which occurred to me may be relevant insight.

As for the "working up to responding to you" and maybe why not yet or whatever else...one angle on the situation that my particular BP constantly grapples with is "Why should/how can I forgive him AGAIN? Isn't he just going to do [thing] again?"

Of course, you can see the irony here, but the point I want to make is simply that she may be running through that particular internal struggle and is still mid-argument with herself - a bit like Gollum/Smeagol from Lord of the Rings.

Ok...need to be careful with how I phrase this.  There is not a whole lot to "forgive" me for, tbh.  The things she was angry about in the past are things that held her accountable for her actions/behaviors.  I would hope that the DBT and traditional Therapy would help reinforce that but I truly don't know.

[MidLifCrysis1]

Sorry. I should've been more clear...I'm still new too.

"Why should/how can I forgive him AGAIN? Isn't he just going to do [thing] again?"
This was not to imply that you actually did anything you shouldn't have done.
I was trying to convey what the BPs - mine anyway - feels and experiences - which is not to say that any of that is entirely realistic/accurate - sometimes it is complete fabrication, sometimes it is rewritten memory (facts rewritten to fit feelings), sometimes it is hypersensitive and twisted misperception/misunderstanding, sometimes it's just plain trigger-stuff.

But the point was that to them, we have hurt/wronged them. It's not much unlike if we were alcoholics or abusers.
I often wonder where she finds the strength, heart, ability to "forgive" me for these offenses - no matter that they are mostly generated by her own mind. But I think that's one of the strange up-side side-effects of BPD; belief and emotional flipping goes both ways.

Hoping that clarified things.

[Doughboy]

Sorry. I should've been more clear...I'm still new too.

But the point was that to them, we have hurt/wronged them. It's not much unlike if we were alcoholics or abusers.
I often wonder where she finds the strength, heart, ability to "forgive" me for these offenses - no matter that they are mostly generated by her own mind. But I think that's one of the strange up-side side-effects of BPD; belief and emotional flipping goes both ways.

Hoping that clarified things.

I was picking up what you were putting down.  My response pertained to exactly what you mentioned.  The biggest things she found fault with were related to my responses to her behaviors and my drawing the line on what was acceptable and not acceptable.  Hopefully the Therapy will be putting her reactions to those things in the proper perspective relative my actions...ie: realizing that I was ACTUALLY doing things that were GOOD for her big picture.

[MidLifCrysis1]

10-4. Just wanted to make sure I wasn't sounding accusatory.

May the Force be with you both - and the rest of us, for that matter.

Wish I could figure out how to get my wife to see/address her condition...I can't help but feel like that's a huge checkpoint in the right direction. Just don't know how.

[Doughboy]

The afternoon of the 15th I sent her another message -

"Xxxx, I know you have seen the above message very recently...the night of the concert we were supposed to attend together.
Since this page is the only place you haven't blocked me (just like last time), and since I see LinkedIn sent a notification that you switched jobs a month ago, there is only one reason I can think of that you have not blocked me here.
If I am correct then just come here, let me know what you want to do, try, or what you are thinking.
If I am not correct then just block me from here so it can all be over for good and the only remaining connection between us can be severed.
You know I never wanted any of this to be this way between us."

She read that one on Friday the 21st and as of right now she has not responded or blocked.  Who knows what she is thinking...

Well, I went in and removed/deleted the message as I said I would.  Sent her a text right after that stated:
"It has been deleted on my end.  If there is no information provided from you soon that tells me otherwise I will just assume your words from before are still your true thoughts/feelings and block that connection myself in the coming weeks."

Wish me luck please.  You get to choose though...Luck that she will reach out OR Luck that I will have to the strength to Block that last connection between us.

Whatever happens is what is meant to happen and I can fully accept either outcome at this point.

[once removed]

have you heard anything?

[Doughboy]

have you heard anything?

Funny you should ask.  I found out the morning of July 1st that she is back with the guy she was dating the last time we were apart.  I went to her home and dropped off a note saying I was done and if she wanted to reach out one last time she could call until late evening.  She texted and asked to meet up.  When I got to her house she invited me up to the porch and patted the spot next to her and told me to sit down so we could talk.

About 20 minutes later the Police showed up and served me with a Protection Order she had filed back in April.  I never received notification so I was just served.  I left that night and went to the Courthouse the next day to get my copies of everything and it is the biggest pile of lies, attacks, mistruths, etc.  I am currently putting my side together and with an Attorney will be challenging it and most likely get it thrown out.  She has purgered herself pretty badly and you can tell it was filed in a rage with no thought to facts, detail, etc being even close to true.  Thankfully I have all email, text records.

What is funny, kinda is this below:  I am using this in my "defense against one of her stalking complaints against me.

"The Petitioner had a history of keeping things in view and in her possession after our breakups.  It took 29 days this time for her to return my house key and garage door opener, which were left for me on her front porch 2/22/19.  She stated she forgot she had them still.  It was the only Pink key on her key ring.

So, she filed the protection order on 4/3/2019, ***I was not Served/Aware*** until 7/1/2019, and I have no idea if the items were still on the wall that day, but they were just 7 days prior.  She claims stalking but she never blocked her ability to view my facebook page from the “xx xx– xx” account.  I could see nothing of hers.  She did not block my phone number as I sent a text 6/21/2019 that I know she read because she then went to her facebook messages and read that message.

It finally took Mr. XX  blocking her “xx xx – xx” on the morning of July 1st, 2019 to sever that final connection that he had requested that SHE sever, in a June 15th message to her that she read on June 21nd, 2019, IF she did not have any interest in him going forward.  She knew the connection still existed, she had the opportunity to block Mr. xx from there at any time.  It could have been done on Feb 28, 2019, when she blocked her Personal facebook account.  It could have been done April 3, 2019, the day she filed the PO.  It could have been done June 21, 2019, when Mr. xx requested it, IF she was truly done with him.  She NEVER took the step on her own.  It would probably still exist to this day if Mr. xx  had not blocked it himself as this behavior, and the subsequent reach out in the future, is her pattern in relationships."

So that is where it is at.  To be Honest, I feel VERY strongly that this PO will get thrown easily.  I don't want to pull her Mental Health records into the mix but I kind of do...torn on that still. 

I still feel that, PO in place or not, she will make contact with me at sometime in the future...

This turn of events also shows me that if she is still doing the DBT it is not working. My guess is that she is not going any longer.  Her downward slide is very apparent over the last 3.5 years.  When I saw her Monday she looked like she had aged 10 years and looked like she had added 15 lbs, in the last 3 months.  It is really sad.

Sometimes it takes an extreme action on their part to make you see everything.  Her mental Health is trending down while her suicidal idealization has been trending up as it pertains to words and action.  I strongly fear she will be successful in the coming years and eventually end her life IF she does not get into a 3-4 month Inpatient program with extensive outpatient upon discharge.  It is so sad and such a waste of what is a truly intelligent, kind, funny, compassionate, and beautiful woman.  The cloud of an unchecked/untreated Mental Illness is hiding/destroying all of those qualities and they will probably never return.

I fear that if the PO gets tossed she may try to harm herself.  He Ex Husband is currently considering trying to get custody of the 17 yr old away from her...that could be another flash point.  He is also going to be a witness for me at my challenge hearing so that will be harsh for her.

[once removed]

"The Petitioner had a history of keeping things in view and in her possession after our breakups.  It took 29 days this time for her to return my house key and garage door opener, which were left for me on her front porch 2/22/19.  She stated she forgot she had them still.  It was the only Pink key on her key ring.

So, she filed the protection order on 4/3/2019, ***I was not Served/Aware*** until 7/1/2019, and I have no idea if the items were still on the wall that day, but they were just 7 days prior.  She claims stalking but she never blocked her ability to view my facebook page from the “xx xx– xx” account.  I could see nothing of hers.  She did not block my phone number as I sent a text 6/21/2019 that I know she read because she then went to her facebook messages and read that message.

It finally took Mr. XX  blocking her “xx xx – xx” on the morning of July 1st, 2019 to sever that final connection that he had requested that SHE sever, in a June 15th message to her that she read on June 21nd, 2019, IF she did not have any interest in him going forward.  She knew the connection still existed, she had the opportunity to block Mr. xx from there at any time.  It could have been done on Feb 28, 2019, when she blocked her Personal facebook account.  It could have been done April 3, 2019, the day she filed the PO.  It could have been done June 21, 2019, when Mr. xx requested it, IF she was truly done with him.  She NEVER took the step on her own.  It would probably still exist to this day if Mr. xx  had not blocked it himself as this behavior, and the subsequent reach out in the future, is her pattern in relationships."

what does your lawyer think? you might want to get some feedback on the Family Law board.

[Doughboy]

And Once Removed, since I know you well enough from here over the years...let me try and jump that question I think you might be about to ask!

"What to plan to do moving forward/What do you want to happen?"

I don't know.  My brain says this is the absolute end.  My heart though is heavy and sad and there is a large part that says "What if"?  

Here is the stupid scenario that went through my mind:
Let's say the PO is thrown out OR she has it pulled. A few weeks/months later she reaches out and says... "I have reached the bottom and I have scheduled a 3/4/6 month Inpatient program and it starts next week.  Would you be willing to drive me there to drop me off and then be open to a conversation when I get out about a possible future for Us?"

My jacked up emotional being right now know the answer is a yes.  Who knows in the future?

[Doughboy]

what does your lawyer think? you might want to get some feedback on the Family Law board.

He feels that we are very well positioned.  We only spent about 40 min talking and he was able to see all the data I had and I how I could easily debunk about half of her 12 "Incidents".  He did ask how aggressive he could be related to Mental Illness and I said I was not sure.  I mean, I love her, she is sick and this is so understandable in the context of the disorder...BUT...a clear message needs to be sent to the Judge, her friends, her family that are REAL issues at play here.

The only way to introduce it is to subpoena the Medical Records and I have no idea how difficult that is to accomplish.

[once removed]

BUT...a clear message needs to be sent to the Judge, her friends, her family that are REAL issues at play here.

does it?

im not sure this is a sound strategy for defending yourself against a PO, or in trying to resurrect a relationship.

[Doughboy]

I don't know if it is or isn't but it was a PO that has 12 specific instances she's listed. Through text message records and phone records and my calendar I was able to soundly refute all 12 items and very clearly show that 10 of the 12 we're total complete Fabrications.

Apparently she's no longer doing her weekly DBT group and probably not doing her individual counseling also. At some point I would think that her friends and family will finally have had enough of dealing with the lies and issue she causes herself. I'm probably wrong.

[once removed]

any update?

[Harri]

This thread reached the post limit and has been locked and split.  Part 2 is here: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=338164.msg13064354#msg13064354

Thank you