codependency or BPD?

[Our abuse recovery guide]

Hi!  This is my first time posting to this thread. I am just now starting to realize that my parent's behaviors weren't normal.  I'm 42.  I am in shock that my family rationalizes all of the behavior and never discusses it and that I was made to believe that everything was great and I was lucky.  The most important thing appears to be that we appear to be the perfect family with perfect relationships.  That me and this parent have the perfect relationship.  I'm tired of pretending everything is my great.  I hate that I feel hopeless about the situation.  I hate that I feel stuck.  I hate that I have to constantly worry that if I don't answer the phone or call at the perceived "appropriate time"--I will have to endure the guilt and fight that will surely come.  (Again, all of this is super secretive--only within our immediate family)

 I am most confused by this parent's behavior towards my children.  They act like they are dying if they don't see them every week. Calling multiple times a day to make sure they're okay. If I don't answer the phone on the first ring--this parent is in a panic that something happened to one of my kids. I always felt like I annoyed this parent when I was a young child.  All I remember about my young years is screaming, spankings, verbal insults and telling me to go on and not be annoying. Of course--all of this was only in the privacy of our home.    This parent never played with me or taught us how to do kid things like ride bikes or whatever.  But with my kids---it's like they have to be involved in  everything.  This parent swims with my kids, colors with them, plays Barbie with them. I am so confused.  It makes me feel like my memories of early childhood are distorted.  I have read about codependency? and It seems to fit.  I am just confused about the dynamics of this disorder and how it manifests in everyday life. I guess I am just wondering if anyone else has been through a similar situation?  Thank you!

[miranda50]

Hi!  This is my first time posting to this thread. I am just now starting to realize that my parent's behaviors weren't normal.  I'm 42.  I am in shock that my family rationalizes all of the behavior and never discusses it and that I was made to believe that everything was great and I was lucky.  The most important thing appears to be that we appear to be the perfect family with perfect relationships.  That me and this parent have the perfect relationship.  I'm tired of pretending everything is my great.  I hate that I feel hopeless about the situation.  I hate that I feel stuck.  I hate that I have to constantly worry that if I don't answer the phone or call at the perceived "appropriate time"--I will have to endure the guilt and fight that will surely come.  (Again, all of this is super secretive--only within our immediate family)

 I am most confused by this parent's behavior towards my children.  They act like they are dying if they don't see them every week. Calling multiple times a day to make sure they're okay. If I don't answer the phone on the first ring--this parent is in a panic that something happened to one of my kids. I always felt like I annoyed this parent when I was a young child.  All I remember about my young years is screaming, spankings, verbal insults and telling me to go on and not be annoying. Of course--all of this was only in the privacy of our home.    This parent never played with me or taught us how to do kid things like ride bikes or whatever.  But with my kids---it's like they have to be involved in  everything.  This parent swims with my kids, colors with them, plays Barbie with them. I am so confused.  It makes me feel like my memories of early childhood are distorted.  I have read about codependency? and It seems to fit.  I am just confused about the dynamics of this disorder and how it manifests in everyday life. I guess I am just wondering if anyone else has been through a similar situation?  Thank you!

[Turkish]

Codependent behavoirs tend more to be enabling of an addiction of others,  such as spouses of alcoholics. My therapist told me that truly codependent people act this out in all aspects of their lives and with all relationships,  as if the C-D person takes their own value by doing for others what others can do for themselves. 

My non-professional take on this is that it exhibits itself in anxiety. 

It sounds very confusing how your mother is trying to be the prefect grandma with your kids,  but it also sounds cloying. Do you feel like the other shoe might drop and the same controlling and abusive behaviors might come up with your own kids?

[CautiousHopeful]

Hi Miranda50,

Your childhood experiences sound a bit similar to mine. My mother could not play with me as a child, except for one instance when I was about 5 when I remember her attempting to dance with me for about 1 minute to some music playing on a record. Even as a 5 year old I actually remember it feeling extremely awkward as she was so uncomfortable in this interaction, but she did at least make this one attempt to playfully interact. I also experienced screaming, verbal abuse and spankings, sometimes being hit for no reason by my father. Both my parents had major early life neglect and trauma, and I know this influenced the difficulties they had in parenting along with their fraught relationship with one another.

So what I am wondering, and I could be completely wrong so please disregard this if it doesn't fit, but I'm wondering if it is almost like your parents didn't get to grow up in a healthy, balanced environment themselves and so they were not well-equipped to parent. Sometimes parents themselves can remain somewhat childlike, and acting out abusively to their own child can be a sign of not knowing and being able to access within themselves more mature forms of communication and interaction. Is it possible that now your parents have grandchildren, they don't feel the same pressure to be a parent and are kind of living out some part of their own child selves by being involved with your children, even if it is somewhat over-involved? It almost sounds like they are trying to heal some part of their inner child through playing with your children, and perhaps there is some neediness in them too associated with this?

But this might not fit your situation. Whatever the case, I can see it is confusing given the different way they are with your kids compared to how they were with you. My own family growing up was probably regarded as fairly normal by others, as stuff that goes on in families often remain hidden to the outside world, and of course as kids we often think that certain dynamics are normal family dynamics if this is what we are immersed in.

Calling multiple times a day does sound a bit obsessive. Do you feel that you might be able set some boundaries around that? It can be challenging re-negotiating the way family relationships work when they have always been a certain way in the past. Is there someone you can maybe talk through these things with to help you process them, whether a counsellor, therapist or friend who you trust?

Often we are enmeshed in certain dynamics with parents that were established in our childhoods. I've been gradually trying to extricate myself from enmeshment with my mother where I have been expected to play a caretaker role with her. I am having to learn to differentiate myself as a separate human being and that I am in no way responsible for her feeling states. What I have found is that the more I am able to do this, things start to improve for both me and her. She almost certainly has undiagnosed BPD, so sometimes I'm still subjected to irrational outbursts and rages, but I'm learning to know that this is not about me, it is about her not being able to regulate her emotions.

I don't know in your case whether there is BPD or co-dependency involved? It might help to discuss those issues with a therapist to get some clarity on the situation.

[HappyChappy]

my first time posting...I hate that I feel hopeless about the situation...I will have to endure the guilt and fight that will surely come.

That's normal, I remember feeling that way, but now I don't. It just takes time to work through, but so long as you're getting good support and advice (e.g. here or from a Therapist or Dr) you'll get there.

I am most confused by this parent's behavior towards my children.  They act like they are dying if they don't see them every week.

A BPD is emotionally stuck around age 8. So they want attention and are getting this by calling about your kids. They may be jealous of your kids. But someone with BPD / NPD prefers the vulnerable or ignorant, as they respond better to their BPD like manipulation. Several reasons why a BPD is keen on kids, the final one is as they're emotionally similar, they share likes (and a sense of humor).

Your BPD may not have played with you (as mine didn't) because they needed you to do the "there, theres." i.e. give them emotional support. Its know as Parentification. But they also like to kick off jealousy and do this by now treating your kids differently. Gets you jealous (is the hope) and keeps your BPD center stage for attention. So in other words, it is weird, as you state, but it is also an effective way to get attention - you're writing about this, its got your attention.

My BPD triangulated my kids - so watch out for that. She also became very competitive with my 8 year old. In fact the screaming and slapping you spoke off (I got that) was turned on my kids, so we no longer leave them alone with them. Hope this helps. Feel free to ask questions.   

[Panda39]

Hi miranda50 

I love sharing the information and tools this site has to offer.

I'm on a quick break at work but wanted to share a couple of links with you, the first is about the narcissistic family dynamic that you might find interesting...
https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=108970.0

I think you are right on with the weirdness surrounding the relationship with your parent to your children.  The description of your parent made me think of enmeshment so I pulled some information on that topic too...
https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=274516.0

I'm glad you jumped in and decided to post, and encourage you to continue to.  I have found the support, information, tools and interaction with other members who "get it" to be so helpful and I know you will too. 

Take Care,
Panda39

[miranda50]

Codependent behavoirs tend more to be enabling of an addiction of others,  such as spouses of alcoholics. My therapist told me that truly codependent people act this out in all aspects of their lives and with all relationships,  as if the C-D person takes their own value by doing for others what others can do for themselves. 

My non-professional take on this is that it exhibits itself in anxiety. 

It sounds very confusing how your mother is trying to be the prefect grandma with your kids,  but it also sounds cloying. Do you feel like the other shoe might drop and the same controlling and abusive behaviors might come up with your own kids?

First of all---thank you so much for the reply!  Oh my goodness, I really appreciate it!  Now that you say it about controlling my kids-----I've always felt like she feels like she needs to raise my kids. Actually, my dad even told me that she was always ranting and raving at home and saying that she needed to come take my kids away from me.  She absolutely cannot handle the fact that I mother my children in a completely different style than she did---and she is so adamant about letting me know why I'm wrong.  With comments like---"you need to listen to me!" Everything is viewed in the guise of just needing to help me, worrying about me, and loving my kids so much.  She's also said that she is so involved and comes to my house so much because she feels like my husband doesn't help me enough.  I have four children and two of them have significant special needs, so I guess another layer has been added to my situation.

I am mortified that I have foolishly followed her advice a couple of times and acted in ways that are completely against my nature and common sense. 

I am also ashamed of my enabling behaviors.  My autistic child exhibits very difficult behaviors at times.  One weekend when we were staying with my parents---he smeared feces all over the bathroom.  This parent absolutely lost her mind.  It was almost like I was in a dream or something.  She completely lost control on him just like she used to with me------and I just sat there.  I didn't know what to say or how to react.  I completely zoned out.  And then all of the sudden, I snapped back when my child began to apologize profusely and cry uncontrollably (like I always did) and I rushed to his side and comforted him. When I was little and would do this and cry---it would infuriate her even more and she would become enraged even more and scream that she didn't want to hear my crying to shut up and dry up my tears.  It scared me to death---still does.  She immediately became embarrassed and acted like she didn't even realize she was doing anything to him.  And I told her it was okay.  I am so angry at myself for this---ugh!   I can't believe I reacted this way.  She also lost control with him after a shopping outing and beat him in my van in the parking lot.  He deserved a punishment both times---but both were inappropriate and excessive. 

I am in shock at how sick and how deeply she suffers with this sickness and how completely stupid and stuck I have been.

[miranda50]

I think you are right on with the weirdness surrounding the relationship with your parent to your children.  The description of your parent made me think of enmeshment so I pulled some information on that topic too...
https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=274516.0

Thank you so much for the links and reply!  I can't begin to tell you how good it feels to be able to freely discuss this with someone.  I am intrigued by the enmeshment and emotional incest idea.  I've read a little about enmeshment and am very suspicious that this may explain some things.  This one is driving me crazy.  We have had to learn to manage very difficult behaviors with my autistic son and she always wants me to talk about everything at long length with her.  She is constantly trying to compete? with my husband to be able to manage my son better than him.  That's really important to her.  She even brags about it and tries to get me to constantly tell her that she manages him better than anybody else (this is of course a complete fabrication of the truth). 
There have been very difficult times with his behaviors and I have stupidly confided in her and asked her opinion on managing certain aspects of his behavior (so stupid, I know).  Anyway---she always responds that this was just something WE were gonna have to learn to manage and deal with.  It annoys so greatly, I can't even tell you.  I finally broke down one day and asked her why she kept saying "we" like it was her problem?  I told her it was me and my husband that have to learn to manage this things, not her.  That offended her to no end.  Never ending comments like "I'm just trying to help!" and "I'm just looking out for your benefit!", and again the thing about my husband not being supportive enough or managing my children correctly.

She also complains constantly about my father to me.  Becomes completely frantic and distraught when I won't join her in bashing the heck out of him.  She says that he's the reason she's so miserable and that if it wasn't for me and my kids---her life would so boring and terrible.

I also suspect she feels like my house is hers or belongs to her in some weird way.  She constantly is telling me what I need to do to my house and what she would do if she lived in it.  She's constantly telling me what to do to it before I have company or whatever.  It's gross.  I'm embarrassed to say it---but it makes me feel so repulsed.  She also wanted to buy a house right behind my house, but I never joined in on the excitement with that idea-so she decided that was over the line.

When she comes---she is also extremely obsessed with anything that has been broken or misplaced in my home.  Almost like it's her's?  She goes thru my house constantly pointing out any stain, paint chip, broken hinge on a cabinet, etc.  She is ridiculous about our family home and it was the main source of everything to her.  Caring for it, decorating it, keeping it impossibly straight and clean.  I don't keep my house like this at all and she barely manage that.

[miranda50]

Your childhood experiences sound a bit similar to mine. My mother could not play with me as a child, except for one instance when I was about 5 when I remember her attempting to dance with me for about 1 minute to some music playing on a record. Even as a 5 year old I actually remember it feeling extremely awkward as she was so uncomfortable in this interaction, but she did at least make this one attempt to playfully interact. I also experienced screaming, verbal abuse and spankings, sometimes being hit for no reason by my father. Both my parents had major early life neglect and trauma, and I know this influenced the difficulties they had in parenting along with their fraught relationship with one another.

Again--thank you so much for the wonderful questions and replies.  I apologize that I am not replying correctly?  or posting accurately?  I am having some difficulty figuring out the format of question and answers.

The parent I am talking about was raised in a home with an alcoholic father that I am quite sure had multiple mental health issues.  Maybe PTSD from WWII and I also suspect narcissistic personality disorder (none were diagnosed).  Her mother was bipolar type 2(diagnosed).  Terrible home life. She was the mother in that family.  Basically raised the youngest like her own starting when she was only ten years old--was completely responsible for his care. 
With enmeshment---is it common for the person to feel like your life is their's in some weird way?  Like possessive of your house like it's her own and fights and berates you if you don't care for it like she wants you to?  Does this sound completely off base?  I am definitely considering seeking counseling for all of this---but this forum seems to be a good place to start. 

[miranda50]

That's normal, I remember feeling that way, but now I don't. It just takes time to work through, but so long as you're getting good support and advice (e.g. here or from a Therapist or Dr) you'll get there.A BPD is emotionally stuck around age 8. So they want attention and are getting this by calling about your kids. They may be jealous of your kids. But someone with BPD / NPD prefers the vulnerable or ignorant, as they respond better to their BPD like manipulation. Several reasons why a BPD is keen on kids, the final one is as they're emotionally similar, they share likes (and a sense of humor).

Your BPD may not have played with you (as mine didn't) because they needed you to do the "there, theres." i.e. give them emotional support. Its know as Parentification. But they also like to kick off jealousy and do this by now treating your kids differently. Gets you jealous (is the hope) and keeps your BPD center stage for attention. So in other words, it is weird, as you state, but it is also an effective way to get attention - you're writing about this, its got your attention.

My BPD triangulated my kids - so watch out for that. She also became very competitive with my 8 year old. In fact the screaming and slapping you spoke off (I got that) was turned on my kids, so we no longer leave them alone with them. Hope this helps. Feel free to ask questions.   

Can't say thank you for the replies and questions enough!  What is triangulated?  how does that look in everyday life?  Is it common for BPD to try to get you to resent things your husband does?  She seems so rational sometimes and is always saying she doesn't want to impose, get in the way, wear out her welcome and all of this----but her actions don't add up.  Are the things I'm saying sound like this disorder at all?  She has such a tough exterior and tries to act so strong and capable.  But her actions don't show this.  I think she doesn't want to be intrusive or a strange mother in law or grandma--but its like she has no awareness of how strange all of these things are in reality?

[miranda50]

One more question--I am so sorry!  I am ashamed to even wonder this.  Is this a possibility?  From what I have gathered---she had an extremely hard time dealing with me as a small child and the demands that were put on her.  I really loved being a mother of small infants and held them constantly and breastfed all of them. I remember her watching me with my infants in disbelief because I didn't meltdown in despair over the constant demands of breastfeeding and colic. I play with my kids and they are always sitting by me and asking me questions.  She has made a ton of comments like---"you do too much for your kids", "you need to teach your children to do things for theirselves more", and she has even said nice things like that she wishes she could have seen things (about motherhood) the same way I do.  That she wishes she wouldn't have been so strict about keeping the house straight and us being quiet inside, etc. 
Is it possible?  that she is almost competing or trying to be loved by my kids the same way they love me?  She is obsessed with seeing if she can manage 4 kids better than me--and she even used to brag about how good she was at it. She is also obsessed with laughing at or making fun of other grandmas that will only keep one kid at a time.  However, she now only asks to keep one at a time (no awareness, like I said)  She constantly tells me how chaotic I am and how I need to do things like this way so I manage my life better. I haven't asked for any of this advice by the way. So is it possible that she's trying to see if she can be better than me?  And she is also obsessed with whether my children love her more than other kids love their grandparents.  She was invited to grandparents day at my child's school.  When she told me about the experience it was a bunch of---"oh Paul was more excited to see me than the other kids were their grandparent", and she even said his teacher mentioned this to her.  He is an extremely huggy, loving child so this may be the case---but it also repulsed me.

[Turkish]

People with BPD feel core shame ("I'm a bad person, unworthy of love") so it makes sense that she would criticize you beyond offering mothering advice. She's soothing herself trying to make herself feel better, and possibly competing with you as a mother to feel loved. 

[CautiousHopeful]

Hi Miranda50,

The more you describe your mother's behaviours, they do sound BPD-like. While I don't have children, years ago I was looking after a friend's one year old 2 days a week. I remember saying to my mother how peaceful I felt looking after her, and her reaction was like she was actually quite upset by this, like it was upsetting and threatening to her that I was happy looking after a child. With BPD it seems like the inner child of the person has such an extreme fear of abandonment, that if you show interest in other people, enjoy their company etc, they can feel like you are abandoning them even if you are doing no such thing.

The fact your mother needed to tell you that your son was more excited to see her than the other grandkids at the school, and that she even went as far as saying the teacher said this also, suggests she is in quite a childlike state herself of wanting validation, to feel worthy etc. What Happy Chappy said about the BPD person being developmentally about the age of 8 seems to fit here.

What you describe about your mother's early life stress sounds very similar to my experience also. My mother's mother had a huge amount of emotional instability and was at one stage given electroconvulsive therapy. She was very cruel and psychologically  and physically abusive to my mother. There is also war trauma on my father's side. What you describe about your mom having a go at you dad all the time is what happened between my parents. She never relented attacking him and tried to get me to join her in bashing dad. When she was angry at me she would say you are too much like your dad, or you should be more like your brother. I think this is what triangulation is. It is trying to manipulate a situation via a third person, to build allegiances or bully a family member or try to shore up support for their messed up view of the world or gain power or satisfaction by playing these kinds of games.

Everything you describes sounds very familiar to me. I am only just recently grasping that BPD is what fits my mother. Sometimes there is some grieving at first realising this, but at the same time you start to know what you are dealing with and that there are various strategies available. I'm still learning from this website and from reading people's posts etc.

It sounds to me that you are doing really well, as you have raised your own kids differently already. You seem more at peace and that you have been able to be calm and supportive with your kids rather than reactive like you mother. If she is developmentally about 8, she may well be competing with you in a way, in that she might have some jealousy that you are managing better than she did with young children. I have found with a BPD parent that they can swing between being caring in some ways, and then jealous and resentful in others. This may be why she swings between praising how you are raising your own children and being critical, jealous etc.

Anyway, it is great you are reaching out. I hope you can find some good support and resources from this website  

[HappyChappy]

What is triangulated?...Is it common for BPD to try to get you to resent things your husband does?  

Triangulation is where a BPD makes one person all good and another all bad. A third person is often ignored as the lost child. This is all about setting your kids against each other. Divided and conquer. The idea is if they are fighting between themselves, they won’t gang up against the mother and they are more inclined to believe the mother than each other. Perfect conditions for all the other brainwashing the BPD wants to do. If people compare notes, look at evidence, that’s the best way to uncover BPD manipulation. Triangulation discourages all this. So your BPD making you resent what your husband does, is another way of making you mistrust each other, isolating you. Standard BPD behaviour. Knowledge is power, once you know the behavior, you can defend against it.

[Panda39]

Is it possible?  that she is almost competing or trying to be loved by my kids the same way they love me?  She is obsessed with seeing if she can manage 4 kids better than me--and she even used to brag about how good she was at it. She is also obsessed with laughing at or making fun of other grandmas that will only keep one kid at a time.  However, she now only asks to keep one at a time (no awareness, like I said)  She constantly tells me how chaotic I am and how I need to do things like this way so I manage my life better. I haven't asked for any of this advice by the way. So is it possible that she's trying to see if she can be better than me?  And she is also obsessed with whether my children love her more than other kids love their grandparents.  She was invited to grandparents day at my child's school.  When she told me about the experience it was a bunch of---"oh Paul was more excited to see me than the other kids were their grandparent", and she even said his teacher mentioned this to her.  He is an extremely huggy, loving child so this may be the case---but it also repulsed me.

I think there are a lot of things at play here.  At the core of BPD is the fear of abandonment.  So she needs to be the best Grandma there is on the planet and your kids need to show her an exaggerated level of love and enthusiasm for her to feel secure. 

There is Black and White thinking...in her mind she is either the most fantastic Grandma ever or she is the worst there is nothing in between so she is competing with and comparing herself to you and other grandparents.  If the kids love her and show her then she feels good about herself, she feels secure in their love, and feels like they won't leave her.  The problem then becomes for her to get that feeling these behaviors need to escalate.  Next time your children will need to demonstrate their love at a higher level and then still higher until it becomes impossible to give her what she wants/needs.  The other thing that will likely complicate things is as your children grow and mature they will become more independent (as they should) and they will likely pull away (as they should) and start living their own lives...she will likely feel this is abandonment even though it is the normal development of your children.

I think alot of what is going on and what is making you feel uncomfortable is that your mother is crossing a lot of boundaries that as your children's mother are your domain not hers.  Have you ever tried setting boundaries with your mother? What has that been like? 

I pulled some more information this time on the Karpman Triangle since triangulation came up in the conversation earlier...
https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=108440.0

Panda39

[Notwendy]

Your mother's behavior sounds similar to mine. She didn't do much to take care of me growing up and was verbally and emotionally abusive.

When I had kids, I didn't allow her to take care of them on her own. There was no way I'd subject them to the kind of behavior I witnessed growing up. It didn't come up though as she always visited with my father- who was a parent to me. I didn't leave the kids alone with them- maybe I'd run to the store for something but my parents didn't babysit. I didn't want them to.

I think she must have had some feelings watching me be a mom and take care of things at home. She didn't do that either. My parents were not wealthy but we did without other things so she would have household help. My father arranged it that she didn't have to lift a finger. Once she told me " I feel sorry for you " apparently because I did things she didn't do. Actually, I felt sorry for her. I bond with my kids, she didn't bond with hers.

But she likes the image of "grandmother" in a narcissistic way. She wants the kids to fawn all over her, show them off, appear as if she is grandmother of the year. One odd thing she started to do was observe my parenting and pass it off as if she did it, in front of people. I might say something like " I carpooled to soccer" and then she'd say something like " I remember carpooling you kids " in front of people.

Recently some neighbors with children moved near her and she has become grandmother of the year to them.  We all got together and she started saying things like " I recall when my kids were that age and I did ...". No- It was my kids--! and I did it!  

For her, it's about self image. It's narcissism. She likes the image. I also think it's a bit of rewriting history for her. I think somewhere she does feel shame for how she treated her own children. She deals with shame by re-writing history. I think it helps her that some people think she was a great mom and is a great grandmother. I just leave this alone. She's no danger to her neighbors, she's probably amazing to them and is motivated to be.

[Panda39]

Miranda,
When I first discovered BPD the first thing I did was go to the library it really helped me to read about BPD to get a good grounding in what it is, why it is, what is happening etc.

Below are some books that you might find helpful if your interested.  The first two are about BPD in general and the second two are about a BPD parent/mother.

Stop Walking on Eggshells: Taking Your Life Back When Someone You Care About Has Borderline Personality Disorder
by Paul Mason MS, Randi Kreger

Overcoming Borderline Personality Disorder: A Family Guide for Healing and Change by Valerie Porr, M.A.

Surviving a Borderline Parent: How to Heal Your Childhood Wounds and Build Trust, Boundaries, and Self-Esteem
by Kimberlee Roth, Freda B. Friedman

Understanding the Borderline Mother: Helping Her Children Transcend the Intense, Unpredictable, and Volatile Relationshipby Christine Ann Lawson

Panda39

[Notwendy]

I also wouldn't be concerned with deciding between BPD and co-dependency. They aren't mutually exclusive. PwBPD can have co-dependent behaviors too.

In relation to my golden child sibling, my BPD mother is enabling. She acts co-dependent with my kids. With others, she expects us to be enabling with her.  She mainly has BPD but there can be overlapping issues/behaviors.

[miranda50]

I think my situation has a lot in common with all of these experiences.  I've always been confused or thought things in the back of my mind---but felt guilty for feeling that way about her---so I wouldn't entertain the idea.  And no one in my family ever really discussed it---we would always make comments that she was difficult.  But none of us ever made her accountable or stood up to her.  My dad makes excuse after excuse for her behavior and takes all of her criticisms and name calling.

I do think she is remorseful for how she treated us as children.  She has even more or less said this in strange ways.  I remember she wrote me an apology letter when I graduated from high school.  It was awkward and out of context-completely.  It was very superficial--like sorry if I didn't always make the right choices as your mom--but everything I ever did was to help you.  I completely ignored it and told her it was unnecessary.  So I agree with NotWendy's comments.  Especially about only loving the grandkids that are overtly affectionate.  I mean---I have a kid with Downs--complete innocence and unconditional love is the very definition of this child.  My mom is obsessed with her.  But I've even seen her become irritated and annoyed with her.  She gets so offended if one of my kids won't let her do something for them.  It's sad, really.  Now that I am beginning to understand the context more.

This has always been so confusing for me---I remember as a young child (5-7) having no idea what I liked.  I didn't know if I thought any of the boys were cute. I didn't know if I liked someone's outfit.  I didn't know what kind of music I liked.  I always wondered if this had something to do with how controlling she was.  I have fought really hard to try to gain my own identity throughout the years.


I am gonna read all of the literature each of you has recommended.  I just cannot thank each of you enough!  I already feel so much better just discussing all of this.  I apparently need counseling as well! 

[miranda50]

I also wanted to reply about  the questions regarding setting boundaries.  This has been a total disaster.  She is so super defensive.  She has used needing to fix things at my house or decorate something at my house to guilt me into spending enormous amounts of time with her.  Mind you---I never mention needing to do any of these "projects" she thinks up----she just tells me I need to do them and that she wants to help.  She has even told me that helping me makes her life better and helps her not to be miserable with my dad. 

I have been horrible with setting boundaries--a downright wimp.  Given in at every turn.  Allowed her to make me feel like I'm not doing enough (usually regarding caring for my home). She uses that my husband is busy and I need help.  Apparently, a friend of her's asked her how I tolerated her coming to my house all the time.  This apparently sent her into orbit.  She was visibly distraught by this notion, so I wound up telling her that I needed her help and that my husband liked for her to come because it freed him up to pursue independent things. Stupidest things I've done in a long while.

I realize that I have to start setting boundaries.  We went to Disney World last year and it was disastrous.  She became jealous because me and my brother were having so much fun together and figuring out where to go and such.  She didn't talk to me for a full three days on the trip.  I vowed never to go with her ever again.  Well---she brought up going again recently and I just outright told her I didn't think it was a good idea.  She became very offended, of course.  Lots of --well, I just thought I'd help you be able to go, but if you don't want to go that's fine.  I just left it alone.  Well, she came to my house recently and left crying saying me and my brother are hateful to her and she doesn't understand why.  That she's been wanting to talk about the change in my behavior towards her for some time, but has been scared too.  I told her that was ridiculous and untrue.  I'm sure she senses my trying to set boundaries.  Anyway----she called early the next morning saying she and dad were talking and they're going to pay for a trip to Disney this year.  I mean---good grief.  I didn't even know what to say.  I have to find a way to manage that whole situation and I'm terrible at this.

[Turkish]

She has even told me that helping me makes her life better and helps her not to be miserable with my dad

You may help her cope, because she never learned the tools to cope.  No one else is responsible for making her happy.  That's an impossible task.  This is the borderline Waif "rescue me" is the emotional message the Waif communicates to her children. 

Can someone link an excerpt from the UTBM book review?

[Panda39]

She became jealous because me and my brother were having so much fun together and figuring out where to go and such.  She didn't talk to me for a full three days on the trip.  I vowed never to go with her ever again.  Well---she brought up going again recently and I just outright told her I didn't think it was a good idea.  She became very offended, of course.  Lots of --well, I just thought I'd help you be able to go, but if you don't want to go that's fine.  I just left it alone.  Well, she came to my house recently and left crying saying me and my brother are hateful to her and she doesn't understand why.  That she's been wanting to talk about the change in my behavior towards her for some time, but has been scared too.  I told her that was ridiculous and untrue.  I'm sure she senses my trying to set boundaries.  Anyway----she called early the next morning saying she and dad were talking and they're going to pay for a trip to Disney this year.  I mean---good grief. 

Alot of what you are describing above sounds like what we call FOG (Fear, Obligation, Guilt) or emotional blackmail.

Jealous of you and your brother having fun and punishing you with the silent treatment...Obligation (to include her), Guilt (that you didn't include her)  More of the same when she came to your house crying. Paying for the trip...bribery that leads to Obligation (you owe her because she paid for the trip) and/or Guilt (I should do what she wants because after all she paid for the trip).

More on FOG... https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=82926.0

That she's been wanting to talk about the change in my behavior towards her for some time, but has been scared too.  I told her that was ridiculous and untrue.  I'm sure she senses my trying to set boundaries. 

I think you are absolutely right here.  You are trying to set boundaries, you are stepping out of your usual role, the role where you give in to her in order to keep the peace, you are moving into a more healthy direction and she is sensing it and getting uncomfortable with that.  But just because it makes her uncomfortable does not mean that you should stop setting boundaries, to try to make her feel better. Her discomfort is her's and her's to manage it is not your role to manage her emotions and try to keep her happy all the time.  Your role is to live your life in a way that you are comfortable and that reflects your values.  She may not agree with how your house looks...but too bad it's your house.  She can do what she wants to her own house.

Often times children of a BPD parent are conditioned to have weak boundaries with that parent, you may even have good boundaries with other people but not with your mom.  Your mom is uncomfortable with the changes you are making, for you the task is going to be getting comfortable with her discomfort.  You and it sounds like the rest of the family have spent all your time, focus and energy making her comfortable. So changing things up is clearly affecting your mom but it can also be difficult for you and the rest of your family.  When setting boundaries things can get worse before they get better so be prepared for that. (see link below) But just because it's difficult doesn't mean you shouldn't do it.

Extinction Burst... https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=85479.0

I often share my own little analogy on boundaries I hope it helps...
We've all seen this at the grocery store...

Mom's value: I want to take good care of my child and that includes eatting good healthy food.
Mom's boundary: Sweets are to be had at special occasions only
Mom's Action: Not buy sweets for her child while grocery shopping

A little kid asks mom for candy, mom says no so the kid pouts.  Little kid asks mom again for some candy, mom says no again so the kid whines.  Little kid asks mom again for some candy, mom says no for the third time, this time kid has a full on melt down screaming tantrum (what we call an Extinction Burst). What happens if mom gives in and gets the candy?  That little kid has just learned that having a screaming tantrum will get them what they want and if it gets them what they want once screaming in the grocery store will likely work again. What happens if mom doesn't give in? The kid learns that no means no and he gives up.

This does not mean however that the little kid won't ask again the next time mom and he go to the grocery store...the kid will test the boundary again and so will the person with BPD in your life.  The key here is to always be consistent with your boundary.

More on Boundaries...
https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=61684.0
https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=167368.0

I know I keep throwing a lot of information at you, please take it in at your own pace, I just like to share the information because it helped me so much to understand it when I first arrived here.

Panda39

[miranda50]

I just wanted to write a reply and tell every single one of you that chose to respond to my post about my parent with suspected BPD.  I took a huge break from reading this and dove into all of the articles and books you all so kindly recommended.  And I cannot believe the things I have unlocked from my past.  The realization of it all has sent me on a whirlwind of emotions and terrible realizations.  It is almost too much to bear.  But I contacted my father--with whom I was never really allowed to call unless it was for a question about fixing something at my house.  She always calls the second we hang up and if we stay on the phone for too long----she beeps in on the other line relentlessly until I answer.  I'm assuming she has used triangulation to isolate me away from my brother and father because while they tolerate her---they stand up to her when she insults them.  And I finally said all those things I was never supposed to say and all those things I was never supposed to feel.  And I have never felt so free.  Free of the guilt.  I also called my brother and discussed all of this with him.  He is finally starting to realize the truth of it all and the effect her behaviors have had on our lives.  He is beginning to remember things from our childhood that he had also locked away.  And it is terrible.

My mom never broke bones or put us in the hospital---you see, she would never do something that outed her.  Her reputation is much too valuable.  And while I feel guilty ,because the stories I have read on this forum about physical abuse are horrifying and I know mine may not be severe, ---the physical abuse was real and it was frightening.  She hid it from my dad with lies and denial.  He never saw one of her full blown attacks where  an aura of pure hatred radiated from her body and venom from her mouth.  She beat me until I felt physically sick and cried and begged for mercy and when I cried and begged for mercy she beat me more and harder and screamed for me to shut up crying--stop being a baby. 

And those beatings were confusing and terrifying and caused me to fear the living hell out of her.  With every mocking laugh, every critique of behavior, every sigh and eyeball roll---fear runs thru my entire body.  I realize now I became a slave to her every desire.  And I was still under her spell until I reached out to this forum.  And I thank every one of you more than you will ever know.  I prayed a very pitiful prayer for years---that I didn't know what I needed, only God does, and to please help me get thru the misery I was feeling.  And I had no idea why I was so miserable.  Never put the puzzle pieces together.  And today, after almost two months of serious soul searching and intense studying this disorder---I finally have the questions to all the things in my life that have never made sense.

I guess my mom is the Witch, Queen, Hermit and Waif all rolled into one. But she is severely narcissistic and sadistically covert. All disguised by flowery fake motives and swooping in to martyr herself as a hero or savior. We've played all the roles. My brother the bad and lost child and I, the good and scapegoat child.  I realize I have neglected myself, my health, my husband, my children, my dad, and my brother ----all to make her happy.  And at the end of 42 years---I finally understand the truth of all of this.  What I always suspected and feared, is true.  And that is so hard to accept.  She truly hated me as a child, used me as a trophy in high school and isolated and devoured my independence in my adulthood.  And I am finally done.  And what a gift that is--A gift from God.

No one had a clue.  Even my husband.  I played my part very well.  Never telling the whole truth and keeping up the charade. I had a file cabinet of sorts buried in the back of my mind that I had organized and cultivated all my life.  Cataloging every confusing encounter and feeling for me to one day open and explore.  This is the hardest thing I have ever had to do.  But goodness, I feel so much better.  Like a huge sigh of relief.  I want to believe she wants to love us---she just doesn't know how.  Or can't.  Or she tries and her disordered mind twists and distorts every effort.

So, thank you very much for letting me ask questions freely and being so responsive.  Your help has been priceless.