Please can I have some advice on the smaller stuff?

[yoyobutterfly]

So I feel like I now have a handle on what to do with the big stuff (destroying property, throwing things, suicide threats, threats of violence….) but where I’m struggling is the smaller stuff. I feel like I’m constantly trying to do the right thing but doing it unskillfully. I’m committed to changing my responses/behavior, but am so often at a loss for what that actually looks like.

For example, my daughter used the family laptop last night, and when it was time to get off at 10pm it she wouldn’t, and then was quite rude to me about it. I calmly reiterated expectations, and when she was rude I said she was not allowed to speak to me that way. I kept my cool. And she was rough with the charger – if she’s going to treat the electronics that way, she’ll lose access to them for a bit.  So I wanted to take away use of the laptop for a day, which I feel is me providing a reasonable consequence.

This morning, in the car on the way to school, I let her know she would not be able to use the laptop tonight. I did this because if she had any schoolwork that would need the internet, I wanted her to know she’d have to stay after school to do it. I didn’t want to set up a situation later today where she’s not able to do her homework. She got very upset about this, which is OK. But she also called me names and told me I’m petty, which I’m not OK with. I calmly told her she needs to stop talking to me that way. She kept at it, and each time I told her calmly she needs to stop talking to me that way. She continued to escalate, at which point I have 2 other kids getting involved, telling me I need to let it go. They do this because they know where this is leading – complete escalation, and they’d rather put up with their sister’s behavior than deal with the escalation. So I calmly tell them they need to stay out of it, but they continue as well. It didn’t get too bad, no one was yelling, but I’m left feeling like I have no control over what’s happening.

These interactions are what’s most difficult for me. These little things. Because they’re ALL THE TIME and RELENTLESS and I’m constantly left feeling like I can’t win. I understand that my role is to change how I’m reacting, and to not take things so personally. But I am truly at a loss about what this looks like in practice. I feel like I’m often doing the right thing (staying calm, putting in place consequences), just maybe not in the right way. I’m ready to change my behavior, to put a different plan in place, I just don’t know what that is. Should I have:

Did exactly what I did, but ignored her (or validated her feelings) when she got upset in the car this morning? Do I validate her feelings even when she’s calling me names? And in front of my other kids?

Told her last night that she wouldn’t be able to use the laptop today, instead of waiting till the morning? (She was in such a state last night I don’t feel like she could have heard it….). This would have avoided any feelings of shame of me telling her in front of her sisters.

Told her before we left for school, when we were alone (she gets up 10 minutes before she needs to go to school and is in such a mood in the mornings this might have been an utter disaster and led to her not going to school)

Something else? Do I ignore or validate her feelings when she’s doing something like calling me a bitch (it sounds like you feel like you’re being treated unfairly) and focus on the behavior (putting in place consequences for not being off the laptop by 10pm, but ignoring her calling me a bitch?)

Or did I do the right thing? Is this just sometimes the outcome of the “right thing” and my job is to realize I can’t control her behavior and work on my feelings about this? Stop tying myself in knots about what I "should have" done, as there's no winning here? I.e., stop playing the game?

I want to do the right thing, I just don’t know what that is and I’m constantly feeling defeated.

I’d appreciate any advice on my situation, or any examples of when you’ve been able to handle similar “smaller stuff” successfully.

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[once removed]

Because they’re ALL THE TIME and RELENTLESS and I’m constantly left feeling like I can’t win.

generally speaking, dont try to win. a battle of the wills is a lose/lose. pivot with a mature response.

Did exactly what I did, but ignored her (or validated her feelings) when she got upset in the car this morning? Do I validate her feelings even when she’s calling me names? And in front of my other kids?

its easier, and more practical, in this case as well as others, to "not be invalidating" than to "validate". create an overall validating environment, but validation is not really a technique to put out fires, and sometimes that approach can even validate the invalid (like calling names).

Told her last night that she wouldn’t be able to use the laptop today, instead of waiting till the morning?

there wasnt necessarily a "win" here. your daughter was going to be upset. maybe there was a better time, maybe not.

i might speak to your other kids in a time of calm though, in a general way, about conflict in the family. do a lot of listening. make it known that interference can escalate and polarize conflict. work to get on the same page, that sort of thing. regardless of who was right/wrong, siding with each other can make matters worse.

[wendydarling]

Smaller stuff? Yoyo I have one child, the dynamics are different. My adult DD is also a quiet person with BPD.

Once is right, we go for a win/win. Not a lose/lose.

Turning it around to you, when your DD behaves positively, do you follow up with positive reinforcement? Focusing on what your DD does well can build trust and respect. It is very powerful.

Back to your laptop example. Yes to consequences., though not in front of your other girls. It's between you and your DD. And consequences, they are best laid out ahead of time to give them a chance to succeed, is goal. "DD 10pm is downtime for tech for everyone, you know this yes?. Next time you miss downtime, you'll forfeit the use of the home laptop and have to do your homework at school...Can you keep to 10pm downtime without me asking... or something like   Offer your DD her responsibility bite size. 

Do you think that may help your situation? Or am I way off.

WDx

[Lollypop]

Hi Yo-yo

Excellent suggestions from WD and ONCE .

Getting the balance right with limits is tricky isn’t it. Teenagers are grow up beyond the children we raised. I found that my idea of parenting had to alter and I know you see that truth too.

What do we want in our home? How can we achieve it?

I’m not talking about the perfect house. You know the kind - where all children are perfectly well behaved all the time, only eat healthy food for every meal, in a sparkling clean house. That’s not the real world is it?  Well, for some it is. My perfect cousin nearly achieves this and glories in her well controlled life. Even her dog training is exemplary!  I have to say - she does appear have it good. But scratch that surface, there are faults,

Being confident is a must. I used to parent too hard or too soft. I try and stay in middle ground now and choose my battles. Being flexible was a must for me also, my son was developing and sometimes he’d really struggle for weeks and I had to ease up. Picking my moment for a difficult conversation that had to be had, drove me to be patient.

HALT. Was he hungry, angry, lonely or tired. If I had to assert myself on something important to me I always guaged his emotional level.

I thought I had a dandelion weed that could thrive anywhere. If I set a rule he should follow it - always. What I learnt was that my son was a delicate orchid that can only thrive in the right environment.

Getting the environment right helped him be stable and calm. If he was calm he responded better to my new interaction skills.

I didn’t bother expending my energy on son cleaning his room. No matter what I did or said he never kept it clean. It was disgusting actually. What I discovered with better communication, me listening and observing mostly, that his anxiety levels were so high, racing thoughts he struggles to get through his day. His head so full, he can’t see the mess,

I put a bin in his room - I noticed that sometimes he used it. When I could see he was really struggling - I’d very occasionally nip into his room and make his bed and empty his bin only (leaving the mess on the floor etc) He’d come home and I’d say “I really hope you don’t mind, but I popped into your room to tidy a little. I can see you’re really struggling at the moment and I thought you’d appreciate it.”  He’d reply (now he could have said “stay out of my room - I’d have apologised and used SET) but he didn’t. He was grateful for the kindness, he was grateful for the understanding. He replied “aw, thanks mum”. I’d say “oh, no worries it only took a few minutes” - promoting the idea that keeping things tidy isn’t onerous.

If I’d have spent 4 years talking about his untidiness - it would not have nurtured our core relationship nor would the room ever been clean. Lose lose.

Now, I totally get that you’ve set some limits and they are totally reasonable. Your daughter knows she has to come off the laptop at 10. She wants to stay on it. You know at 8, 9 and 9.55 that she’ll kick out. You can predict the problem. It’s the elephant in the room. The goal may be for your daughter to choose to come off at 10 without any prompting. Is that your goal?

This can be got around by distractions for awhile. Running a bubbly warm bath, baking for all 4 of you to enjoy - or whatever you think might work.. This might seem like pandering but it’s not forever, it’s a change in approach, a surprise to her. Her brain gets positive at 10, not negative. Just like a toddler.

I found being rigid didn’t work with my son. My limits had to be fair ones. I had to be flexible to whatever was going on in that moment. Limits are flexible - they relate to every day life. Boundaries are 6 feet thick concrete and always come with consequences (eg. You will not hit me).

I think you need to understand what your limits and boundaries are.  Too many - you set yourself up to fail and life’s a battle. Too few, there’s no control and life’s unbearable. I find setting myself with 3 goals really helped me stay focussed and not sweat the small stuff (I’m not saying your 10pm rule is wrong by the way). We have to get clever, strategic and take control in such a way it’s can be achievable.

It’s not easy Yo-yo. It may seem impossible but you can get to a point where things are better than they have been. Small baby steps, small victories and one day you will be rewarded in some quite unexpected and surprising ways. The skill set you learn sets you up for life, your kids learn from you without them even realising.

LP

Ps. This is me and my life. You and your situation are entirely different. We each are unique. What works for me may not work for you. But we learn from each other.

[livednlearned]

Great suggestions from Lollypop, wendydarling, and once removed. I learn and have to re-learn and remember all over again, and see each interaction as practice practice practice.

With my son I find driving in the car and walking side by side is a safe time to talk about what I need from him for something to run more smoothly in our lives. Just one issue at a time. I learned to be vulnerable and repair and recover when I felt things didn't go well. "Last night I was tired and frustrated about something at work and didn't handle things skillfully with you when I got home. I feel overwhelmed sometimes and that isn't the right time to be talking about stuff. I'm feeling rested now and want to figure out a way we can solve this problem in the morning where we leave in a rush, always late. The truth is I sometimes feel afraid when I drive rushed to get you to school. I don't want to get us in an accident, that's why I want to leave the house at 8am."

Then I ask for his input. What can we do? What can I do? What should happen if that doesn't work?

I pick a time when he's regulated to talk about things so he can access the problem-solving part of his brain. I put things in terms of my feelings to remove blame and judgment, and to build trust through vulnerability.

Sometimes it doesn't work. He might not be done venting about something. "I can see this is upsetting you. Let's take a rain check and talk again when we're both rested."

Parenting Teens with Love and Logic isn't for BPD sufferers necessarily, but it offers the same approach: love/logic so you can set up situations where your child experiences the consequences directly.

It might be something like DD gets her own laptop and charger and if she wrecks it then that's it. She has to figure out a way to get a new one. Or you two decide together that she gets her own lap with the limit that you cut access to the internet on all devices at 10pm.

The goal is to scootch them closer to taking responsibility for their actions and being accountable with coaching from the wings.

[Mirsa]

Hi,

I lived this daily struggle with my BPD DD17 for about three years and it was absolutely exhausting.  I was able to attend a 3-day training called Therapeutic Crisis Response Intervention, which was basically how to help educators and practicioners deal with kids who always engage in power struggles.  It really helped me to bring the energy down with my DD.  It sounds like you are doing several of the strategies already, one that worked for me was using a super calm voice and never reacting to her emotional escalations.  You've also gotten some great advice here from others.

That being said, I will say that it got better at times, but she never ever stopped pushing.  She was indeed relentless.  That is the perfect word.  It was exhausting.  I had a countdown on my phone to the day she would go away to college, but I got lucky and she moved out a year early when I refused to give in to her unceasing demands to have her older boyfriend in her bedroom.  Dad allowed it, and off she went.  (wonder if he's starting to regret that decision yet haha!) 

Anyway, it sounds great that you are thinking through your responses on the big and even the small issues.  However, if you misstep, react, or don't do something 'right', I hope you won't beat yourself up over it.  This is not normal parenting we are doing.  It is exceptionally hard work, and I've come to believe that only the parents who have similarly difficult kids truly understand the daily struggle and constant adjustments we are making.  I rarely share details with parents of 'normal' kids anymore, bc they simply can't understand.   

My opinion on having the conversations in front of the other kids is a little different too:  if you wait for the perfect, alone moment, you'll probably have seven things to address.  Sometimes you just have to tackle it when you can.  And the other kids are watching and learning from you to see how you handle their sibling.  I think this is really important actually: that you model for them how to handle her.  To be honest, I'd probably have a separate conversation with them, to reinforce that they need to respect your decisions in how to handle her, explain that she has a tough time managing emotions, and they need to give you respect and space to manage it, that it's YOUR job.  If they don't stay out of it, then there should be consequences for them. 

My only suggestion on the interaction with the BPD child is to keep it as short and simple as possible, "Hey bud, sorry but no laptop today bc of ...  I love you and know you can make a better choice tonight."  (she freaks out, name calling ensues)  You:  "please stop, it's not a huge deal.  don't call me names.  I deserve to be treated with love & kindness (huge thing in my household, I say it on repeat).  We're done talking about this now."  (she keeps freaking out)   "So, we are done talking about this now, but if you can't dial it back, and keep calling me names, you'll lose more privileges tonight.   Take a breath and calm down."  (if she keeps freaking out)  "It really upsets me when you overreact like this to try to get what you want.  It feels like you are using anger to manipulate me and I don't like it.  If you want me to do you favors, such as drive you to your friend's house this weekend, please treat me with kindness." 

So, others may totally disagree, but this was my approach.  On the other hand, my DD moved out, so maybe it didn't work for her!  Haha.  She actually did turn it around quite a bit in the past year.  I actually think she moved out bc her father was willing to allow her drama, while I had pretty much had enough of her verbal abuse. 

Good luck and hugs to you.  It's exhausting!
Mirsa

[yoyobutterfly]

Hi everyone, it’s so helpful to hear I’m not alone! I’m coming back to this a few days later, and reading your thoughts (thanks for that!) has helped me put it in a different perspective. Perhaps I need to step back and look at the big picture of what’s going on.

When we have a smallish thing where there needs to be consequences it’s like I have PTSD because of what’s happened before. I actually probably do have PTSD. Me putting in place consequences has in the past led to threats to my physical safety as well as suicide threats from my daughter. This is all hugely traumatic for me, so when I at all feel like we’re in a similar situation I’m triggered. The anxiety is overwhelming.

The laptop issue I started this thread with didn’t lead to a life threatening situation. But because of previous experiences, my body sees it as a life-threatening situation. I can’t predict if something is going to be a small thing or a big thing, and my interpretation of events is skewed so I’m going to see it as a big thing either way.

I think just recognizing this will be helpful. It’s also clear that I need to talk to a therapist about these things.
 
I’m also reminding myself that we’ve made a lot of progress. I have a plan in place for when “hard boundaries” are crossed (physical threats, suicide threats) and have communicated that and stuck to it. This, along with my daughter engaging in therapy, has led to behavior changes (serious escalations are fewer are farther between), and helps me feel a sense of control.

So I’m recognizing that we’ve made a lot of progress, and trying to remember that some days are just going to be a poopfest, we’re all going to react poorly sometimes, and (as long as there’s no serious escalation) that’s OK for the moment.

I am also going to re-read (and re-read again) everyone’s suggestions for me.

That’s how I’m feeling about it today anyway, perhaps because I’ve been away from the “relentlessness” for a few days. Tomorrow may feel different

[FaithHopeLove]

I am chuckling at your term "poopfest." We have had a few in our house too. It is good to be able to laugh about our human frailties.

[Lollypop]

Hi yo-yo

I’m laughing too! Well done!

It’s a long game and we need to face it with a smile or we’ll break. Although it’s ok to fall, important to pick ourselves up again. Tomorrow is another day!

Poop fest!

LP

[yoyobutterfly]

Arg, last night was another poopfest! I was doing well until... well, I was triggered and out came the anger/justifying/arguing/defending... I knew she was going to have a bad night because me and her sisters hung out at my boyfriend's house (and had a great time!) and she chose not to go (which is fine with me, I leave it up to her whether she wants to take part). But she was not happy that we went.

My daughter notices the difference in my behavior (me not arguing, just stating expectations and sticking to consequences) and knows exactly how to push my buttons around that ("This isn't you and it's not going to work. You don't care about me or listen to me anymore, you're just doing this because my therapist told you to and you want to control everything, you only care about you," etc., etc.) And last night I got sucked in.

But I'm not perfect and today's a new day. I need more practice. And I think the fact that she reacted to the change is evidence that it's working--I've been told it could get worse as she tests me before it gets better. She still acts out verbally and is defiant (refusal to do what she needs to do) but has not acted out physically against me or herself. And, me and her sisters can do what we want to do (go to my boyfriend's house for the evening). So, that's progress.

It's so relentless!

Thanks everyone

[once removed]

last night I got sucked in.

what happened?

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[yoyobutterfly]

OR – we fell into old patterns. BP daughter was unhappy that me and her sisters went over to my partner’s house for a couple hours. She expresses this by taking it out on her sisters (starting fights, calling them totally inappropriate names), making a mess in the house and refusing to clean it up, and not doing anything she needs to (stuff for school, chores). She accuses me of being selfish, a bad mom, and not caring about her. What’s most difficult about it is how the above behaviors just make everything so difficult for all of us. Nobody’s comfortable in their own home.

So I use my strategies. I stay cool and repeat the same message: I understand that you’re upset but you are not allowed to use that language in this house (or whatever behavior she’s exhibiting). I love you, I’m here, and we can talk about how you’re feeling when you’ve calmed down, etc. (I would like to talk about what’s REALLY bothering her, but at this point I know she won’t be able to do that). But she just keeps at it. At this point I can’t ignore her treating me/her siblings badly. The only consequence that works is grounding, but she’s already grounded until Friday for telling me to “shut the f*ck up” the day before. I’m at a loss for what to do because I believe she is trying to start a fight with me and will keep going until she gets the emotional release. I’m getting angry because she controls the entire household with her behavior and my anxiety level is rising because I’m afraid of what might happen. I start arguing with her about how she’s being unfair to everyone in the house. She’s yelling at me, I have no consequences to give (already grounded)…. I want to tell her she needs to go to her room until she can behave civilly but am too scared too because I know she’ll refuse and then things will escalate. I want to remove myself from the situation but then feel like I’m running away in my own house. I can’t figure out how to protect her sisters from her belligerence.

A couple of positives that I’m hanging on to: It DIDN’T escalate to my daughter making physical threats or threats of self harm, and me and my other girls had a fun night even though I knew it would set off BP daughter. So that’s progress? I guess? But I still can’t figure out what to do in these situations.     

[Miserable Mom]

yoyobutterfly
RELENTLESS is an excellent description of the day to day pressure, the little stuff. It is the relentless pressure that has worn me down to the point I have given in and allowed that behavior to be re-enforced without even knowing what I was doing. I forgive myself and move on. Some battles I see causing an escalation to the point of 911/ER and have given in out of fear of the looming crisis. Now I know to be prepared, alarm on, safety plan activated, emergency contact on alert and I stand strong come what may. It is working. I do know I will have trouble standing my ground if I am already in a crisis/high stress. My situation is different, as my daughter has no access to a device/phone/internet for safety reasons. Yesterday we renewed her behavior contract to include a phone, her top goal, when it is earned.It also gives me leverage to have something to remove as a consequence. Very clear expectations, very clear consequences and very clear incentives. Rule #10 is No disrespect/verbal attack on mom. Consequence is loss of allowed 8 hour weekly time with friends. . It has been eye opening to see the difference in her behavior when I change my reaction/behavior. She did not like her first inpatient stay and she now knows she is going to go right back if it comes to that.  Pray for the best, plan for the worst.