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Author Topic: Are they two people or just one?  (Read 547 times)
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« on: March 24, 2019, 05:06:30 AM »

The hardest thing about people with BPD traits is understanding that they are not two people (dream come true, relationship from hell), but rather one consistent person (emotionally impulsive, significantly over-emotes feelings).

I just saw this comment from Skip on another thread and it was a new idea to me. I’m still processing it.

A lot of people posting here have described an experience where the person we care about seems to become someone different from the one we thought we knew. I suppose that’s how I’ve been thinking too. She really did seem to turn into someone different. I somehow thought that her best self was more real and authentic than her bad self, and this helped me to disregard her bad and dysfunctional behavior.

But maybe that’s not a good way to think about it, I don’t know.

I’d be interested in other views on this.


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« Reply #1 on: March 24, 2019, 05:52:36 AM »

I forgot who said when people show you who they are, believe them the first time.  Something like that.

Sounds like you tried remedying your cognitive dissonance by splitting in your own mind and creating two storage banks for “understanding” things.  (And you are asking why this won’t work?)

Splitting off your own awareness does not make the reality you so desire to become a truth.

When a person shows you who they are, they are all of who they show you of themself.  (Especially when you have spent time with them tracking patterns of behaviors)

People do change, but having a pattern of seeing a person osscilate emotional ranges...  to assume they are the idealized version that you prefer is simply denial that they are all of what you have experienced.

Cutting out our own understanding to cope...
Does not lead us to truth.  Does not lead us to greater intimacy with others or ourself.
It is a mild form of dissociation on our part to eliminate who they are from our awareness.

Persons with BPD oscillate in this way due to inherint flaws in their ability to self regulate.  They use other people and do what is referred to as “relational regulation” instead.  When they are elated and their partner feels “high” with them and like this is the best thing since sliced bread, well... realize that you guys may be using relational regulation to capture this feeling that feels more amplified than usual good feelings.

If you are dealing with a person who has little, poor, or zero self regulation skills, expect that when they feel poorly and want to regulate that emotion, well... they are well practiced in the art of relational regulation... to the exclusion of learning self regulation skills.  

(If in addition to your partner having poor self regulation skilss, you youself also have poor self regulation you may want to depend on relational regulation to the exclusion of self regulation and may feel slighted when used by your partner to not only regulate positive feelings, but the negative ones too.)

The intense feelings a person with BPD has, positive or otherwise...  is intense due to lack of these internalized self regulation abilities.  (Some formally learn DBT and can logically move through dialectics, that is still different than a person who has internalized the ability to self regulate)

This is gonna be the dumbest analogy ever but think a sweet dessert vs less sweet... the intense one is gonna give you more calories.  You can’t eat it and think “this is so beautiful and sweet and must be utter goodness that it cant possibly have zero calories.” No, because we know stuff that is sweeter has more sugar and well... too much isn’t good.  We accept that cupcakes have more not less calories than bread.  

Same that a person who uses others consistently to regulate emotions... would be silly to expect that they will begin magically self regulating just cause to do so would save us the calories and we so badly want the sweetness.

(Bad analogy again but I felt a metaphor of some kind was needed)
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« Reply #2 on: March 24, 2019, 05:56:00 AM »

Hi simut.

They become somebody else because they "split" on you. They see everything in black and white so they either love you or hate you.

This is why you hear people say it just happened out the blue because it literally did. One minute your Jehovah and the next Lucifer, you are left scratching your head thinking what just happened? They alternate between the 2 with everybody, even their own children, I have seen it.
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« Reply #3 on: March 24, 2019, 06:36:10 AM »

I can only speak from my own experience and I am probably going against the majority but hey that's what the British government do!

Searching for split personality is what lead me to BPD in the first place, I am convinced my ex was one person with 2 personalities.
Isn't that why we refer to them as Jekyll and Hyde?
She would change from laughter to psycho in a split second and the strangest thing was neither personality remembered what the other had said or done. She was like David Banner, once she had had a sleep she would return to normal totally unaware of the havoc she had wreaked the night or hours before.
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« Reply #4 on: March 24, 2019, 08:05:51 AM »

pwBPD traits are individuals just like us. They are not split personalities. It may seem that way because their moods, feelings and reactions can fluctuate rapidly and without warning. I used to operate under the belief that S4’s mom was two different people because I was in denial and made up my own narrative of what had happened. There is an unfair stigma that is attached to BPD. It’s a mental illness that is still in discovery. These people don’t want to be the way that they are. Effective treatment is still being developed. Yes, it is up to the pwBPD to take responsibility for their actions and seek treatment, but in many cases insurance won’t cover the diagnosis. It’s not affordable. I’m beginning to see that the best thing we can do is to educate ourselves and raise awareness. Seek out the authors that are doing this.

BPD has caused us a great amount of pain. We can sit here and throw darts at it, or we can be part of learning as much as we can about it collectively and being part of a solution.

Everything evolves within human nature. I believe that BPD can be manageable. Effective treatment simply hasn’t been developed yet. One big step, IMHO, would be recognizing emotional abuse on a legal level. A parent should be held accountable for emotionally abusing a child. Children should have third parties to turn to where they can explain things like this. School counselors?

I apologize for going off on a tangent, but sometimes I get frustrated by seeing pwBPD being talked about like a science experiment. Like lab rats. They’re pwFEELINGS. I share a child with a woman with traits. I am diagnosed with C-PTSD which means I have traits as well. There is crossover between the two.

We got together with these people for a reason. I suggest figuring that out before throwing more darts at the stigma of BPD. That helps nothing moving forward.
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« Reply #5 on: March 24, 2019, 01:59:32 PM »

What id like to chip in to the discussion is this suggestion I came across a trait of pwBPD can involve having unstable identity issues.

For some background, I eventually learned my ex identified with having another persona complete with a different name. The name I met originally could change and  another persona who would behave "badly". It was not my BPDx who did bad things to me it was "other name" who would somehow emerge on a seemingly unpredictable random basis.

It seems this fabricated other persona was a lot more consistent than her original though. the original could also change, adding to the confusion. this so called original identity what I refer to depends on whoever she was with and very malleable to that.

So to answer, it was not as simple as 2 persons in 1, it could be a multitude of identities either from people or from tv, youtube personalities a much as how she would be different with me.

To add to the mix, she would eventually go on to invent characters and different personas for me. At first when I never knew what was going on was more than just simply comparing via similarities. I would play along with it until I got a hunch it was more than just that. Obviously this didnt help but I stopped it.

mostly it was from tv personalities, the way id put and end to it would be to point out a factual way both herself or myself were different from whoever she had modelled herself or myself on. I recall when I did this an expression from her as if I had just shattered something real. My fault for unwittingly playing along with it up to that point.

Yep there are few easy answers to any of this as much as it is hard to start off even with a good question. I often can relate to others relationships with BPD partners here but it did lead to generalising in this search for answers.

Unstable sense of identity is a trait as far as I know but again, it is going to be on a scale of mild to extreme. FWIW, I feel that my ex had this issue but it took a long time for me to appreciate it, as it was not overly obvious. To an extent it was part of what I found attractive, she often seemed larger than life the way she 'acted' out. I knew nothing about BPD (still know very little) and rationalised this behaviour as much as a lot of other behaviour in this sort of way for it to try and make sense to me.
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« Reply #6 on: March 24, 2019, 07:11:28 PM »

Excerpt
      We got together with these people for a reason. I suggest figuring that out before throwing more darts at the stigma of BPD.               

I am sorry, but I don't remember putting an ad in the paper in the lonely hearts column stating "woman wanted, must have BPD".
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« Reply #7 on: March 24, 2019, 07:22:39 PM »

You’re both missing the point completely. Cromwell, maybe it’s more than BPD. Stop focusing on the label. Focus on the behaviors. Your’s as well.

In a bad way , I’m not following you. What does that even mean?
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« Reply #8 on: March 24, 2019, 07:40:17 PM »

I didn’t place an add either. The point that I was trying to make is that we ended up with our partners because we are damaged as well. We attract what we project. I’m saying that it’s easy to sit here and blame an ex for our pain. I’m also saying, dig deeper. If you want to sit on your couch and blame an ex, I won’t stand in your way. If you want to heal and empower yourself, I’ll stand beside you. Snarky responses don’t produce anything of value.
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« Reply #9 on: March 24, 2019, 07:58:01 PM »

Too many people on here say we went out of our way and chose a person with BPD.
No we didn't!
Most people prior to coming here had never even heard of it. We met a person and fell in love and somewhere down the line their true self outed, we did not seek these people out.
Get a grip people, how were we supposed to know? It's not stamped on their head, we can't ask for documentation even if we knew about it, which we didn't.
Do we ask " hey what's your name? are you BPD? Have you got a certificate?
No because we had never heard of it, and now I have I still wouldn't ask the question.
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« Reply #10 on: March 24, 2019, 08:15:29 PM »

You’re right. We didn’t seek them out. It was a natural attraction. It’s hard to figure out. Prior to coming here, I had no idea about relating dysfunctional relationships to my childhood. Now I do. You’re right, most of us had no idea when we landed here. We were simply looking for relief.

In a bad way, we had no way of knowing. We weren’t taught to see these things. Actually, we were taught to embrace these behaviors. It’s not our fault, but it is our responsibility to unlearn the toxic BS. What was your childhood like?

I understand trying to get to know someone, and when you do, the mask falls. I have a 4 year old boy with a woman that has strong traits of BPD/NPD. I understand. I have a strong grasp on how you feel. You seem angry. Spill it.
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« Reply #11 on: March 24, 2019, 09:27:15 PM »

Cromwell, maybe it’s more than BPD. Stop focusing on the label. Focus on the behaviors. Your’s as well.
 

Hi JNChell, You have a good point there too much drug use together has made also it hard to discern the behaviour. both sides.

important factors to add in that add to the already existing complexity.

If I wanted to solve this sort of riddle anymore - I used to, and I also used generalising so I relate to this topic and the OP.

Part of the advantage of the longer the complete NC has gone, there becomes increasingly less reason to want to know. Theres little value, theres little point, perhaps it is getting to the stage of complete acceptance that there will never be a recycle, that the emotions/feelings are not/will never have the same magnetic pull they once did. It took time, there is a bit more pressure to want to know these things when a r/s is ongoing or is just another split up waiting for the next recycle reach out. but complete NC over time does I think help, in my case anyway, theres little  justification to want to know anymore when life moves on in a different direction.

 I do tend to reflect more nowadays on my own influence on the relationship - instead. it has also helped bring better closure by acknowledging that whatever I did, intentional or not, they are factors too as well as factors that were outside the r/s altogether, other 3rd party influences, pressures, events. Your right I think if what you are saying here that it is narrow minded to focus on BPD as the absolute core root fault that caused relationship failure. it is tempting to do this, understandable too, but it did keep me thinking outside the box for a long time to other stuff.
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« Reply #12 on: March 25, 2019, 05:05:41 AM »

Thanks everyone for your responses. This thread has developed in an unexpected direction but no probs, we all learn from each other.

Sunflower, thanks especially for your thoughtful contribution. It may take me a while to digest, but I expect it will do me good.
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« Reply #13 on: March 25, 2019, 03:29:49 PM »

by nature, BPD traits involve a black and white view of the world; people, things, concepts, are all good, or all bad. even more so under stress.

expressing one extreme or the other isnt so much a split personality as it is a world view. it can be difficult to understand, but for perspective, a lot of us at one time saw our exes as the greatest person in the world, and then came here to this board to describe them as the worst. its a coping mechanism that we all have from time to time, for people with BPD traits its just more extreme.

Excerpt
I somehow thought that her best self was more real and authentic than her bad self, and this helped me to disregard her bad and dysfunctional behavior.

did you consider the real and authentic her to be the her that idealized you?
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« Reply #14 on: March 25, 2019, 07:17:55 PM »

Excerpt
Sunflower, thanks especially for your thoughtful contribution. It may take me a while to digest, but I expect it will do me good.

If it helps you to understand where I am coming from...  I have DID/OSDD.

According to the Structural Dissociation Model, BPD absolutely does exist within the continum of dissociative experiences.  This small chart shows PTSD as a primary form of dissociation.Complex Trauma
www.complex-trauma.eu/wp-content/uploads/2014/05/sd-ptsd.jpg

For ex, what happens with PTSD: Flashbacks of a person with PTSD are simply memories that get stored in a seperate networking of the mind away from other non trauma experiences.  They get assigned their own compartment or network and flashbacks just occur when that area of storage gets reactivated enough to draw that memory of experiences to the surface.

Often persons with BPD can have amnesic barriers similar to someone with DID, so I can completely grasp why a person may feel confused if their partner with BPD may appear to have OSDD or DID.  Then there is also the fact that there is a high coorelation between the two diagnoses.

If you look at the chart tho, the way they are distingushing the secondary and tertiary is based on how many “ANP” a person has.  (ANP = apparently normal parts of the personality; EP = Emotional Parts)

So use me for example.  I have a part that is a fully functioning person in my work world and also fully seperate part that functions fully as a mom and is able to perform equally like a normal person and even with similar personality characteristics so folks never can actuall tell, but both contain different skill sets and memories of experiences completely.  I can have trouble crossing my amnesic barriers. (Yet I can actually do it and can move my parts and such because my therapy is evolving and joining me). While at work I can struggle to switch parts to be able to respond to my son.  (This is one example... I overlap parts so this doesnt happen terribly and there is some ways to connect through barriers so the amnesia isn’t noticable to others.  Simply stated: I fake it well... the nuances are rather way more complex than I can accurately describe tho.)

My point tho was... In that example. I am showing you 2 ANP.  One that can fully function at a job and a seperate person who is a mom that has her memories mostly seperate from the work Part.

How a person with BPD differs is that their other “self states” are NOT another fully functioning ANP.  The “Parts” that they tend to “switch” into are actually more primitive behaving emotional parts of the personailty.  They may have an EP that collects all their grievances on you and when you tear a hole to trigger that compartment they feel consumed by that EP and unable to function.  Or they may have an EP who was treated poorly by her dad as a child and felt rejected so treats you like that dad who wronged her and her porportions of the emotions you are getting thrown at you are that of the hurts of a 6 year old stuck in a trauma time.

They may have an EP who appears lucid yet her role is to lure you back to remedy her abandonment fears.  This part may “appear lucid” but may be serving a role for the “host” ANP.

When a person with BPD dips from their main ANP into and emotional state they can indeed appear very much like a different person as they can have great emotional trauma in the EP they are using as a frame of reference for what they are experiencing today. (This IS very much  a dissociative experience as the person is reliving a trauma they may not have the insight to realize, and not oriented to the present day to day happenings of life)

Many pwBPD are using high functioning ANP at work and can shift into have their EP mostly seen in intimate behind closed door kinda situations.  This is a form of dissociation as they then switch back to an ANP to return to work the next day like nothing happened after a huge blow out with an EP the night before.

Personally, what it can feel like to get pulled into the perspective of an EP is like an overlapping of present day and trauma time for a specific trauma in my life.  Remeber old TV with fuzzy signals and trying to watch HBO without having a subscription so you in fact were watching two overlapping shows and neither was clear?  That is kinda how my mind can feel.  I cannot do my day to day functioning if an EP has complete hold of my mind.  

Hard topic for me to discuss in a jointed fashion, but is getting easier... hopefully something makes sense.
« Last Edit: March 25, 2019, 07:32:44 PM by Sunfl0wer » Logged

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« Reply #15 on: March 26, 2019, 05:16:16 AM »

Excerpt
it can be difficult to understand, but for perspective, a lot of us at one time saw our exes as the greatest person in the world, and then came here to this board to describe them as the worst.

once removed, I think that this is an important idea to keep in mind while we choose our new paths. For a lot of us, our thinking wasn’t really much different from our ex’s. We were simply combative with them, and they with us. There’s a lot of variables that need to be handled on the fly with a pwBPD. I’m getting tired of even using that label anymore so I’ll use it for lack of a better term. I guess that what I’m trying to say is that these relationships can work, but it takes a very deep level of understanding and commitment. I’ve ruined any chance of reconciliation with S4’s mom. She’s done the same. We both know that it’s over. Only after the fact and finding this community have I begun to really understand what it means to be with a person when trauma is a factor. Looking inward has been the key. I’m starting to feel confident that I will be a rock star in my next relationship, if there is one.

You bring another very valid point to the table. Holding on to the woman/man that idealized us is very hard to let go of. Perhaps we’re doing a bit idealizing that “person” ourselves. Putting the person on a pedestal that once put us there. I’m beginning to wonder if I miss the feelings more than I miss the person.
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« Reply #16 on: March 26, 2019, 01:25:46 PM »

Skip wrote "The hardest thing about people with BPD traits is understanding that they are not two people (dream come true, relationship from hell), but rather one consistent person (emotionally impulsive, significantly over-emotes feelings)."

I had to smile for a couple reasons: 1. My ex's name was "Dream Come True".   2. Using the word 'Consistent' in describing 'Dream Come True'.  -Thank you for the smiles -every smile counts even if born of the macabre .

I also began to visualize Dream Come True as two people.  The one I loved and the one who hated her.  Having spent a good bit of time thinking about this I do not see a danger in this perception iff (if and only if) one remembers 'these people' are inseparable.

Once Removed astutely queried "...the real and authentic her to be the her that idealized you?".  She is a single human being.  Try to cherry pick the likable part and ignore the rest at your own peril!

This construct of 'Two people' was a short hand which allowed me to encapsulate my experience.  Dream Come True has basically two modes -one was more or less neuro-typical up beat, creative and insightful and the other mode was quite self destructive. This self destructive side did tend to bell curve over and effect everyone close to her --she was a giver in both modalities...

I never considered her duality as being similar to DID -her states of being were purely an emotional venture.  However, I did see her personality shift dramatically when we first became intimate.  Her current (soon to brutally become previous) boyfriend was well to do.  Dream Come True mirrored being wealthy.  When we came together she mirrored family values...  When I spoke to her about this she denied having any recollection of her previous attitudes. 

I will never know if she actually forgot or was lying out of shame.  She had a very flirtatious relationship with the truth. 
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