How to set reasonable boundries with MIL

[BeanCounter]

 
I just found this community and have been reading through some posts. Some of them I feel I could have written or my DH could have written. It feels good to know that others are going through many of the same things.
My MIL has untreated (as far as we know) BPD and Bipolar. Over the 18 years my DH and I have been together she has been very difficult to deal with. We've had arguments, false police reports, substance abuse, hospitalization and at one point were completely estranged for about three years. She loves to relive the past and tell very disparaging, negative stories about my DH. It's hard to listen to it. She will do it in front of our children too. Which I have a really hard time with.
When in a period of contact my DH has always used myself or my mother as his "buffer" (his words). Thinking she wouldn't behave badly around us. My mother died a little over a year ago and now his mother is lashing out at me. She is requesting he spend time with her without me. He said no and, this blew up and he has been out of contact with her for about a year. Yesterday he mentioned that she has reached out to him again and he feels he might want to rebuild the relationship and he wants me to go with him.
At this point I can't anymore. I want out. I'm happy to help him see her whenever he wishes. But I can't be the buffer anymore. I don't want to be in a relationship with her. It seems that my DH feels I should be with him when he wants to see her to "support him". It hurts that he would think I am not supporting him. I just can't be with her anymore. It makes me physically ill to do so. And anxious. I'm scared of her. And then it's like a week to recover from a visit.
So I guess I'm asking how I set an appropriate boundary without hurting him more. How do I help him without hurting myself.

[sweetheart]

Hello BeanCounter,

Your boundary is a good one as it protects you emotionally against what you know will happen for you if you reestablish contact with your MIL. Boundaries are about self-care, acknowledging that you matter and that can only be a good thing.

The way you uphold your boundary is quite simply to not visit with your husband when he goes to see his mother. It is ok not to go. How your husband feels about your decision is his issue to deal with not yours. Boundary setting can feel weird at first because it is new for you both.

Implementing a boundary means standing fast by it even if your husband is struggling with it. If you stand fast each time he visits it will become easier over time for you both as this new way of dealing with your MIL takes place.

Has your husband planned his first visit yet, can you plan something with a friend that takes you out and about for the first few times he is planning to see his mother?
What else could be helpful for you?

[BeanCounter]

Thanks for the response Sweetheart.
He has not planned his first visit. And I guess this is where I am struggling. He likely won't. I don't think he is ok with spending time with her if I'm not there. And he has no other "buffers". Other than our children. It is unclear if she will explode in front of them or not. So they may or may not be a buffer.
So by setting a boundary that I am not going to have a relationship with her, I am making it very likely that she won't see her son or her grandchildren. Which really leads to guilt for both my husband and myself. I don't want that. But I also can't be involved in this anymore. If that makes any sense? I'm very conflicted. I love my husband very, very much. And I know he suffers from a lot of pain from his childhood and dealing with her. But he also suffers from a lot of guilt from cutting ties with her. It's a no win.

[sweetheart]

You are so right with a family member who is emotionally dysregulated and mentally unwell, those of us left trying to navigate the chaos are nearly always faced with a no-win situation.

I get your dilemma with your husband and children. I too am at a current impasse with my mother which means that my s11 will not have contact with his grandma. Like you though I am tired, upset and angry and know that any contact with my mother will just trigger me more atm. I don’t want that in my life right now. The no-contact was started by her. I don’t have the emotional energy right now to reestablish contact.

The thing is you already know where contact for you will lead, that is not a good place. It is not a place where you can be supportive to anyone from.

Hold on to your boundary. Your husband will have his own difficulty navigating his relationship with his mother. Letting him know that you can still support whatever choice he makes is important.
If he is unable to visit without you that is not on you, it is then perhaps better that he doesn’t visit if it is too much for him at the moment.

Do either of you see a therapist? I wonder if your husband might find it useful to talk through this situation with someone. Is this a possibility?

[zachira]

It is very understandable that you do not want to see your MIL anymore. It sounds like your husband can't bear to be alone around his mother as it is too upsetting. It is also too overwhelming for you to be around your MIL as well. It seems you have some common ground here.
Therapy for your husband could be a good idea so he can set some healthy boundaries with his mother when he does choose to see his mother. I am guessing that part of the reason your husband may want you there is his mother acts worse when he is alone with her. He also may feel better if he has someone to witness the bad behaviors and to help him get over the distress he feels after seeing her. You clearly do not want to be part of the distress cycle anymore and it makes sense.  

[BeanCounter]

Neither of us are in therapy. I would like to start as I'm dealing with the death of my mother and facing a big decision to quit my job to stay home with the kids. I don't know how he feels about therapy. I know that he went to therapy as a child because of poor school performance (likely due to his home life) and he says that he was too afraid to tell the therapist anything because he thought he would sound like a whiny kid. Because he would have been complaining about his mother. I'm guessing this is pretty common for kids with a parent with BPD?

[zachira]

It all depends on the client and the therapist as to what the client feels comfortable sharing. Your husband is now a grown man and would likely feel comfortable and relieved to talk about his mother with a therapist who understands BPD and could help him figure out the most effective ways to deal with the behaviors of his mother that are so overwhelming for him. Over the last few years, more therapists have started to specialize in treating clients who have a mother with BPD, though the norm is most therapists know very little about BPD.

[kiwigal]

Acceptance Commitment Therapy would be a great place to start, as it accepts the reality of what is happening, but also enables you to worth within your circle of control and boundaries.

It seems wise you are taking space from the dynamics of the relationship. I think that boundary makes sense because your husband needs to develop his own new ways of interacting. Often we don't seek out those tools for ourselves, until someone else steps away from a 'rescuing' role.

I also think the triangulation that can occur with you being the buffer, is exhausting - you are holding your dignity and letting the boundary communicate the reality; "until this stops being toxic, I won't engage"

My own MIL is uBPD and I have also had to take that stance recently. I wanted zero engagement but that flares a BPD and creates more havoc... the sense of abandonment makes them even more crazy.

So instead try a sort of placating interaction. Just lots of making the right noises and steering clear of issues. BPD's cannot negotiate, so there's no room to talk and negotiate expectations with them. You just learn to find the path of least resistance and not get hooked.

NO therapist will think your hubby is a whiny kid, either. As a trainee therapist, I recognise that the trauma of attachment issues common with a BPD parent, means that the pre frontal cortex doesn't function as well and reflects in learning difficulties. My own husband thought for years that he was dumb and slow.. only to recognise at 40, that he is actually very bright. The attachment issues are very real and create a lot of confusion and difficulty that presents challenges for years to come. The good news is that inside a good marriage/ partnership- you can experience the healing of attachment issues permanently. So I commend you for being such a stable and supportive and loving place for your hubby and his feelings at this time.

Id also encourage you, silly as it sounds, to just give him gentle back rubs over the next week, while he processes things, and let him begin to feel in his body, where the tension is being held. Because BPD don't show empathy, kids of BPD parents often carry tension within and are unaware as they've not been modelled the empathic process for themselves. By engaging the pre frontal cortex with where these sensations are being held, and experiencing release and pleasure and empathy from you, his brain will begin to build new neural pathways that will quite literally, enable him to grow new ideas and ways of coping with his BPD mother.

[BeanCounter]

This is so helpful you all. I can't thank you enough for your responses.
I want very much for DH to have a comfortable relationship with his mother if at all possible. Even if it's just on the surface and not a close one. I think it will help him be at peace. I also think that maybe taking myself out of the mix could actually help them.
Kiwigal, your insights on children of BPD are particularly interesting to me. My DH faired ok. His mother has always been extremely disappointed in him though. As he tested gifted as a small child, but could never, ever live up to those expectations. He was a poor student because his home life was ___. His mother is also diagnosed bipolar and would go into deep depression. Sleeping all the time and forcing my husband, the oldest child to be the parent. They often had no food because she didn't bring anything in for them to eat. During her manic periods she would shop constantly. Filling up the house until there was only a small pathway to walk. And finally she would have rages. My DH tells stories of being woken up as a teen to her standing over him yelling.
His brother however was a failure to thrive baby, and was later diagnosed with ADHD and learning difficulties. He is in reality quite bright but still as an adult struggles with relationships and social interaction. He and his wife moved across the country to flee MIL.
Interactions with my MIL are typically requests for DH to come and do work. It's been like this his whole life. She always wants him to do lots, and lots of crazy work. Can be anything from moving absurd furniture to hauling rocks. He is pretty sure his constant back problems are in part caused by constantly having to move things as a teen that were to heavy for him. She doesn't care that he has a more than full time career, two small children and his own house to care for. If he doesn't agree to do the work then the anger comes. Sometimes it's very direct or as in recent months, it's been directed at me.
Her other go to is to get him in a position where he can't leave somewhere and then berate him with everything he ever did in the last 41 years that was wrong. This means that anything we do with her has to be planned so that we can escape at the drop of a hat.
I guess I'm just venting, but all this is to say that finding a way to have a relationship, even one just on the surface, is very, very difficult.

[kiwigal]

Oh wow, Im just so sorry for all you have and are going through.
It must be so exhausting trying to work out how to navigate that all the time.. and also in the midst of raising your own family and being present to that.
I have tears in my eyes reading your story... and honestly, Im curious how on earth you both have managed to navigate this so well?
What strategies have worked?
You spoke of making sure you're in spaces where you can escape and not be cornered - which makes so much sense to me. What other things have helped you to manage and cope, together?
In what ways did your husband make sense of this as a young person?
I can see from what you are saying, that he is very capable, and bears up under a lot of responsibility and load: a learned strength.
But Im also picking up that there is a side of him that needs the support of another big person to stand up to his mother and say "no".. and Im wondering how he could develop his own limits?
If he says no to her, what does that anger look like? What 'hooks' him? Is that disappointment you spoke of, one of those hooks? Ie, When she berates him, does that leave him feeling guilty? Is that the FOG?

[Panda39]

Her other go to is to get him in a position where he can't leave somewhere and then berate him with everything he ever did in the last 41 years that was wrong. This means that anything we do with her has to be planned so that we can escape at the drop of a hat.

This right here would explain to me why your husband wants you there with him...to help him escape when cornered.  The thing is this isn't your job and putting you in the middle isn't helpful.  Your boundary of no relationship with his mom (at least for now) makes sense to me.  If any other person in your life behaved the way she is behaving you wouldn't likely continue that relationship.  What complicates it is that she is your MIL. 

I hope you will continue to visit here, there is a lot that can be learned in terms of communication tools, validation, boundaries and how BPD works.  When I first started seeing the BPD behaviors in my Partner's undiagnosed BPD ex-wife (uBPDxw) it felt confusing and very chaotic but once you learn what BPD is and how it affects someone I found that you can see patterns of behavior and anticipate behaviors.  I found it started making sense.  Once it starts making sense it can be easier to not take everything as personally and use the tools and techniques you learn to improve your situation. 

I will also tell you that the only person we control is ourselves, so the goal here isn't to fix your MIL only she can do that.  The goal is to change your approach to her so that you change the dynamic of the relationship and protect you and your family from her inappropriate and abusive behaviors while still having a relationship with her.

So by not having a relationship with your MIL you are setting a boundary...you will no longer be around a person that is abusive towards you and your family.  This is completely rational.  There are also other things that you can try that are in between...sitting there for hours taking abuse and going no contact.  Nothing has to be set in stone either.  So for right now No Contact is what you need...you need a break from her that might be for awhile or it might be forever.  I would use that break to learn more about BPD.

I also agree with the others about getting a Therapist involved that understands BPD they can give you support in the real world.  Your husband will likely have a harder time learning new skills or implementing them because he has been doing this dysfunctional dance with his mother his whole life.  He has a certain role in his family dynamic (as we all do) so it will likely be difficult and uncomfortable for him to make a shift from that role to something new.  You on the other hand are able to see things as an outside observer and likely have better skills (like setting boundaries) than your husband. 

You might suggest that he join us here too if he's interested because you and he are coming at this from slightly different angles but also it will allow you both to speak the same language.  That's what happened with my Partner and I we are both members and as we learned we were able to strategize and create a united front when it came to his uBPDxw.

So I love to share the information and tools on this site because they helped me so much.  Below are a couple of links I thought you might be interested in...

One is a discussion about having a BPD In-law...
https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=285794.0

And the other is about the Karpman Triangle, because I see triangulation in your story...
https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=108440.0

Take Care,
Panda 39

[BeanCounter]

I feel like I have learned so much by reading here in such a short time. It's very encouraging. And I'm very thankful to you all for your input. Even the questions you ask help get me thinking on things a little differently than in the past. The writing also seems to help a bit.
Kiwigal you asked what strategies have worked in the past. DH and I met in college and for many years his way of dealing with her was to avoid all contact as much as possible and then compromise on doing some part of what she was asking. Her asks would always be ridiculous lists that no one could get through so after avoiding her for a long time he would say "I will come and help you, send me the list and I'll pick three things I can do off the list for you". And I would always go along to "help". He has always, for the 18 or so years I have known him had a "buffer". This went on for years. I realized something was wrong when we started dating and he would talk negatively about himself and it always started with "well, my mom says...". I noticed that they never seemed to do anything together just for enjoyment. He never just talked to her. And one day he said "you always have to be careful when you talk to my mom because she's very smart. She's brilliant in fact. And she is always reading between the lines. She's looking for the things you AREN'T saying. And she keeps them and will use them against you when you least expect it." And then it all kind of clicked for me that this was more than her just being "odd".
I was not worried about joining the family because he seemed to keep a good distance from her. We moved out of state after we were married.
Then there was a big blow up during a visit (with police involved where she accused my DH of abuse- don't worry they could see she was crazy) and we went NC for several years. Even moved back to town without her knowing.
Once we had our first child we started including her again. But only to big family occasions. So instead of doing things with my family, we would always host and invite both sides. This was just so she could join. My role during these events was strictly hostess. I cooked, cleaned and didn't talk. DH and I just got through the visit and we would have a drink together when she went home and toast to survival. I was pleased that they were at least in contact. Now from reading here I can see that I have been playing the rescuer.
When my mother was sick and clearly dying, they were all over and I was prepping for Thanksgiving dinner. MIL started down her old threads of how my husband was such a poor student, how he flunked out his freshman year of college and on and on. I got frustrated and I did the one thing I had never done before, I talked back. I calmly asked her "when are we going to stop talking about this? when are you going to see that he did graduate from college, he went to grad school and graduated Cum Laude, that he has a great job and that he pays for this very house you are sleeping in tonight and the food on your table tomorrow? And that he paid for all that education himself. When are you going to let it go? It's been 20 years, I am asking that we please stop talking about this" She said nothing. My mother was standing right there. The next night after everyone had left she unleashed on my DH. I can't even remember the laundry list of things that she brought up. She refused to come for Christmas, which was fine. Then two months later she demanded to come to my mothers funeral. Of course that would involve staying out our house as she lives out of town. So I left and stayed at my mothers home the night before her funeral. My best friend came with me to keep me company.
Two months after my mothers funeral my MIL send an email to my husband asking him to come take care of her after a surgery. She said she didn't want me to come and then listed for several pages all her issues with me. And said that I give her anxiety. She also said she didn't want to see her grandkids. But she wants time to "rebuild a relationship with my DH". This upset my husband and he sent her an email back saying that it was either all of us or none of us and he was "taking a break from her". I was not happy that he did that because I felt it put me in the middle. But honestly, I've been so wrapped up in my own grief, and my children, I couldn't care less about their crap. So that's been a year ago and we've been NC. Last Sunday DH comes to me to say that she reached out again and wants contact and he doesn't know what to do. I told him I'm out, you've got to navigate this on your own. I think he felt abandoned.
So I truly can't see a way forward. To see her means one of two things for him-
-she comes to our house and spends the night and I either leave or stay and deal
-he drives 1.5 hours each way to spend the day with her and I either go with or he is left alone with her
It's also really hard for both of us that she chose to say all those nasty things about me, two months after my mother died, knowing that I am an only child and my father died when I was young. Not that I want to be close to her, but it was like she purposefully picked a time when I was really vulnerable to say "oh and by the way I hate you and don't want to see you or your offspring".
It just sucks. He said to me the other day that he felt maybe he had to come to the understanding that his mother didn't love him, and never would. That he could never please her, that she would never be proud of him.

[BeanCounter]

Thinking more-
what "hooks" him. It's guilt. He feels that not having a relationship with his parent is wrong and somehow it's all his fault. He has often said that he feels very guilty for "leaving my brother behind with mom when I went to college. maybe if I hadn't left him he wouldn't be so F-ed up". He also feels guilty that she has nobody. Literally nobody in her life to help her. When he refused to help her after her surgery, she had to hire home health to come in and sit with her. He and I both know that she has done this to herself, but we also know that she really can't help it. She simply cannot control herself and that results in many bridges burnt.
In the past he has also been "hooked" because she has a history of telling untrue disparaging stories about him. You know that parent at a family gathering that has some awful story about how her kid is such a little s#$%. Yep, that's her. And he thought that if he was there she wouldn't do it. I spent years explaining to him that nobody believes the things she says. Their extended family dealt with this (and her other unpredictable, odd) behavior by not inviting her or her children to events. This is fine with us. Except for those events would be a way to see her without really "seeing" her. if you know what i mean.

[kiwigal]

I felt my stomach knot and sink within me, when you wrote about the grief of losing your mum, while having those dynamics and insults said about you. Im just so sorry.
The lack of empathy is dehumanising and in a time like that, just entirely unacceptable. And having to go stay elsewhere on the eve of your mums funeral.. oh man, I felt angry for you.

But something you said, showed me the depth of your inner strength; the way you stood up to her, for your husband, and communicated a united front, with dignity and poise and being direct. And having your own mum quietly stand at your side... I could tangibly feel your mothers presence in your voice with you "this is what we stand for.. we stand for truth and strength and honouring one another".

Your own journey is that you are strongly differentiated, and you have a grit and insight and clarity that shines. It's really evident in what you write, and how you express yourself. Keep journalling - because I think over time you will see your own sense of agency and dignity in the midst of all this.

I can understand that for your dear hubby, being able to lean into your own strength, would be a source of security for him. In his own chaotic attachment, you have been a beautiful safe place of stability, love, warmth, exhortation, acceptance. Its so lovely to see and I admire you both for the relationship you've built with this stuff going on.

I can hear too that you are wanting to walk in the strength of your differentiation - and I think that's wise. Your MIL has never respected you as your own person, you are just a threat, the woman who has taken her place. Her response is to draw a wedge between you both by triangulation, and saying unkind things to you both, and try and build relationship with her son, without you. Its typically BPD and toxic.

You cant demand that she respects your sovereignty (she will never hear it and cant because she doesn't see her own sovereignty, but is very dependant and broken).. but, you can function within your own core values and have fantastic boundaries.
A good place to start is to identify together, what are your values. I can hear that you both really value family, even if its messy. You also seem to both value kindness, honouring, hospitality and graciousness.
Within that, you can agree that you wont tolerate her saying unkind things about each other.. and practise giving a good response; "Mum, I can hear that you feel disappointed with him/her, and Id feel disappointed too if I thought those things. But you can be reassured that he/she has lots of strengths and good qualities, as you do - so let's leave that here and lets go play a game (or whatever a good distraction might be). If she carries on, you can simply say, "if you carry this on, Im going to leave, but Id like to stay and enjoy my time with you, so shall we carry on doing this game?"..

You have to rely on your own gut and predictions and experiences of what sort of behaviour she plays, and how to nip it in the bud, before it gets elevated. Sort of like dealing with a toddler. You constantly have to act to calm her amygdala response which gets tipped over the edge to fight, with seemingly no triggers. And then recognise what cues tell you that her amygdala has tipped far enough that you wont tolerate it.

I also think it might be wise, for a time, to let DH visit her alone and develop his own sense of differentiation. Things often have to get really worse, before they get better. He may feel abandoned, but he knows you will be there with a kind and empathic response and the normality he experiences with you, is likely enough for him to see the disparity and recognise her need of help. When he can identify how broken she is, and that he is not responsible for her in anyway - but that she is adult enough to make her own choices - he will likely then want to relearn how to interact.
I would also set some boundaries such as "I don't want you to pass on messages for me, or from her to me, I wont hear them but will walk out". This stops the triangulation and wedging because he knows, that even if she says it, you wont hear it.
Whenever you feel a level of distress, stop and consider, is this feeling because my intuition is telling me that something is amiss? Listen to that intuition.. it has been, and continues to serve you well.

The conclusion your hubby has reached that she doesn't love him, isn't he entire story, but it shows something; He is reaching a place of seeing the issue outside of himself - that she is not the problem, and neither is he the problem, but the problem is BPD. This is vital, because this processing will help him differentiate. When he can recognise that her BPD means he can never please her, keep her happy, fill her bottomless pit of emptiness - he will be empowered to change the way he interacts. Instead of behaving to want to keep it somewhat filled, he will be able to interact from a place of staying true to his own core values.. "Im doing this, because it is right by me, not because it fixes her, because I can never fix her". Its such a hard and heartbreaking journey to go through, but I can tearfully say, you should both be so proud of each other and what you have built together. You both have a deep strength and love that Id say has likely grown even deeper, because of what you've had to deal with.

You are absolute ROCKS to each other. Huge hugs.