Can’t remain friends...

[Hiscaru]

My ex and I broke up roughly a month ago, and I’m in shambles.  She was everything to me, but she’s moved on already. She cheated on me and is now dating the person she cheated on me with. I went a couple weeks with minimal to no contact at all, just asking her occasionally where something was, the name of somewhere we went that I want to goto with friends, etc. I texted her for the first time in a week or so yesterday asking her how she was doing. She told me she was doing well, and I asked that as friends if we could meet up for some breakfast at some point this weekend just to catch up, trust me I hve no intentions of getting back together with someone who betrayed me, but I still want her as a friend. After her telling me she was “busy” all weekend, I simply asked her if she wanted to remain friends or not. She told me... not really. So I just said okay I wish you the best. My problem is, how can someone who you were in a relationship with for two years just discard you like trash? She had BPD, she doesn’t know it but she does. My therapist told me after I described to her the traits my ex was exhibiting. How do I approach this, and should I just accept the fact she wants nothing to do with me anymore?

[Wicker Man]

She had BPD, she doesn’t know it but she does. My therapist told me after I described to her the traits my ex was exhibiting.

Whereas 'diagnosis' maybe helpful in trying to understand the aftermath of a dysfunctional relationship -only a medical professional actually meeting a patient can make a diagnosis. 

My ex was diagnoses schizophrenic and bi-polar -However I firmly believe she was misdiagnosed and suffers from BPD, but this is merely the opinion of a layperson.  I have been careful to never say directly she suffers from BPD. 

--I am trying to offer a warning against armchair psychology. 

How do I approach this, and should I just accept the fact she wants nothing to do with me anymore?

As to how to approach recovering from your relationship? I feel being in therapy is a big step in the right direction -good for you.  I also found solace in journalling both in a notebook and 'live' journalling here -this is a truly remarkable community.  The act of organizing one's thought enough to articulate them in writing seems to be cathartic.

Once you are able to do so, I would suggest not dwelling on the relationship in therapy for too long.  A little time spent is valuable, but if you spend too much time on it you are taking away from you.

I fought with mild depression and did my best to keep doing the things I did before I was depressed -through force of habit get back to life as normal.  It was tough to get out the door to be active, but when I finally did I was proud of myself for doing so.

Should you simply '...just accept the fact she wants nothing to do with me anymore'...  ummm sure.  Yes you should    Far easier said than done.  It took me months and months -of course it is what you should do, but be kind to yourself and be patient.  This is a tall order and ultimately, in my opinion, in the long run, it will be better to have felt and worked through the pain rather than whitewashing over it.  -Grieving is a process without a healthy shortcut.

My problem is, how can someone who you were in a relationship with for two years just discard you like trash?

I spent a lot of time reading about BPD -perhaps too much time.  However when I read about object consistency or Object Permanence I was able to begin to understand, what up until then, had appeared to be unfathomable behavior on her part.

Lack of Object Constancy - An inability to remember that people or objects are consistent, trustworthy and reliable, especially when they are out of your immediate field of vision.

When I was not literally with her she could not remember me specifically or feel my love -this is not conjecture, but instead something she told a mutual friend of ours post breakup.  This explains a lot in my opinion. 

Between her lacking object consistency and her horrendously self destructive coping mechanisms our time together began to make some sense to me.

I am sorry she does not wish for you to be her friend -but...  Here is my thought on the matter regarding my ex.  My watch is done, I can no longer try to help her and I no longer have any influence on her life's decisions [perhaps presumptuous to assume I ever had any lasting influence on her life's decisions]  Finally to my point -I am fairly certain my ex will continue to make terrible life choices and I still care enough for her to not want to watch the slow motion train wreck that is her life.  Perhaps her unwillingness to be your friend is a blessing in disguise.

Wicker Man

If it helps any her unwillingness to be your friend seems to indicate to me she did care about the relationship on some level and being your friend would cause her pain -and god forbid the risk of introspection or accountability.

[Sadly]

Well, for one why would you want to be friends with someone who did that to you? If this was a friend, and not someone you had an emotional relationship with, would you want to remain friends with them?When this new relationship goes t*ts up, which it will if she has BPD and she tells you she made a huge mistake and it’s you she really loves ( until the next time) will you go for it, forgive her, believe her, after all, everyone makes mistakes, don’t they? Been there, done that, sorry mate, run for the hills. Don’t get recycled. You have got out, now stay out otherwise a whole huge world of unhappiness will come your way.

[Hiscaru]

I see exactly what you are saying in terms of armchair psychology. It's not a clear diagnosis but given how she acts and portrays herself it's clear to me that something is up. The therapist I'm going to is a professional in the field and we tried to see what the possibilities could be. To me, BPD makes the most sense considering how she is void of empathy, makes irrational decisions, and overall lacks the ability to commit. it's odd to me that given how great we were together, and given how frequently we would talk about how we were both doing, and how the relationship was doing, she had no problem with me or us for that matter. I think it boils down to the fact that she was in the right place at the right time, aka a party, and made a bad decision. Based on this bad decision, cheating, she may have acquired feelings towards this person. I asked her if this had never happened would we still be together, and her response was yes, which leaves me to think that this other guy she is pursuing has made some influence on her decision whether to leave or stay. I honestly wouldn't be surprised if he convinced her somehow that I was the bad guy, just so that he could have her to himself. Anyways I guess what I'm getting at is will she reach out to me after they are done or when she is in a rough spot, or do you guys think shes gone for good. I would be fine with either outcome and I know it's hard to say without knowing the details of our relationship, but I can say this. Everything was all dandy and cheerful one second, nothing wrong, to being completely separated and distraught the next.

[clvrnn]

"Everything was all dandy and cheerful one second, nothing wrong, to being completely separated and distraught the next."

Sadly, this is how it goes. I myself still cannot comprehend how this works, no matter how much reading I do about it. The only comfort you can take from this is that it isn't personal to you, and you didn't do anything to cause this.

[Sadly]

Everything fine and dandy, yes, that’s how it was in my relationship and that’s were it started to go wrong. I loved fine and dandy, saw long term love and happiness however it had the opposite effect on my partner, the closer we became, the happier we were, terrified him into becoming a human wrecking ball. That’s why it is so very sad, classic I hate you don’t leave me behaviour. He just couldn’t trust the love. His treatment of me became abhorrent, and of course it was my fault. It’s a terrible illness. Let her go love x

[frankofwgkta]

even if she reaches out man you have to guard your self. i'm not sure if i'm the only one doing this but she did text me asking me about something last night. and i hate that because i'm so attached to her and i'm not over her yet that i was low-key wishing it was awindow. the last time she spoke to me she told me she would love nothing more in the world to stay friends with me and talk and hang out. but one thing we all have to realize is that even though we want to keep them in our lives for some messed up reason. it will only bring us sadness. while she is single she will seek attention from you but when the relationships start for them you will be ignored then you would be the person she goes to when they brake up. it's going to dig up past feelings and you will get hurt and sad. i want my ex to be my friend but it's just that even though our ex's wBPD discarded us and delavuled us , we are still healing and we sometime want them back in some way, so it's hard for us to let go. keep your head up man.

[Hiscaru]

I know that I can't take her back, I know that she's gone. I tried my best to save her, and attempt to treat her. It was clear while we were dating that something was off, she wasn't like a normal relationship, and I tried to consult her and be there for her. The problem is that she was also there for me. This is why I'm clingy and attached to what we had. Everyday it does get easier and easier, but occasionally their is a rough day like yesterday and today where I miss her a lot. She needs therapy and counseling but shes getting involved in the wrong groups, she's constantly getting high, dating someone who does xans and vivans, and she cares little about her future. Maybe it was a blessing that this other guy swept her up from me, but maybe she needed me to direct her in the right path. Either way, I guess ill never quite understand how you can mentally be okay with cheating and forget about someone that quickly, especially all that I did for her.

[frankofwgkta]

yes man! i feel the same way as you do and think it helps us understand that we are going through this together. the same thoughts come to my mind. i was the one that helped her and my ex was diagnosed with BPD.

[frankofwgkta]

but you got this don't worry you are not alone i'm going through this to . i also sent you a private message.

[Wicker Man]

I guess ill never quite understand how you can mentally be okay with cheating and forget about someone that quickly.

Speaking of armchair psychology...  Here is my theory...

If she does indeed suffer from BPD or has BPD traits impulsive behavior is one of the nine criterial for diagnosis.

Impulsive, self-destructive behaviors. If you have BPD, you may engage in harmful, sensation-seeking behaviors, especially when you’re upset. You may impulsively spend money you can’t afford, binge eat, drive recklessly, shoplift, engage in risky sex, or overdo it with drugs or alcohol. These risky behaviors may help you feel better in the moment, but they hurt you and those around you over the long-term. --cut from the first website I found.  The target is people suffering from BPD --but you get the idea.

People suffering from BPD often feel soul crushing shame.  Perhaps she acted impulsively (engage in risky sex) when realizing what she did it created shame which she alleviated by jumping ship on your relationship rather than being able to face the shame of admitting the cheating. (These risky behaviors may help you feel better in the moment, but they hurt you and those around you over the long-term)



From my observation and readings they do have empathy, but may not be able to show it.  Further they by and large do not have the ability to accept accountability for their actions -it is simply too much for an already overloaded psyche.  I experienced this first hand.

From the little I am gleaned about your relationship from you posts it seems you are a good and caring man.  I would ask you show yourself the same compassion and care you showed her.

I know 'discarded' is part of the common vernacular when speaking about BPD relationships --However words have meaning and words have power.  By using damning words we are setting ourselves up for failure. 

The Tipping Point Theory (marketing) basically theorizes small things can cause a sudden cascade resulting in a major change.  If you use the term 'discarded' then the mind goes to what is discarded?  Things which are inherently undesirable -this is simply not the case.  You had a relationship and it ended in a break up --ok... it was perhaps brutal and perhaps uncalled, but it was a

break up

.

To take marketing theory a bit further... Positioning theory postulates we only have room for one idea in our minds for a product.  Make the idea you have in your head about you a positive one.


Wicker Man

[Hiscaru]

I do wickerman, and it seems like you have certainly done your research! Unfortunately it’s quite hard to understand the mind of my ex, she’s all over the place. I guess I wish things didn’t end the way they did, but theirs nothing I can do about it now. Would you say that I should expect her to text me whether it be within a month, a year etc, or do you believe she is never going to reach out again, I don’t want her too, but I need some clarity as to whether she will or not based off of other peoples experiences.

[Wicker Man]

...it’s quite hard to understand the mind of my ex -she’s all over the place.

It seems to me you do understand.    My ex was an emotional leaf being blown in a tempest.  Her mood and disposition could change on a dime when she was feeling insecure or stressed.  Her coping mechanisms were self destructive and desperate.  

Would you say that I should expect her to text me... ...I don’t want her to

People suffering from BPD are as individual as any neuro-typical people -There are going to be some over arching similarities common in people suffering from BPD, due to fitting the criteria for the disorder, but they are not all the same.  

From what I have read it is not uncommon for someone with BPD to reach back out to a past lover.  However, mine never directly tried to contact me.  She did post a daily count of the days we were apart on Instagram each with a meme -these were brilliant and painful.  Our mutual friend told me she was afraid to contact me directly because she wanted to respect my wishes.  Although, I learned soon after our break up she had tried to visit me, but was denied a visa.

Here is the important bit:  Figure out if what you wrote is your truth "...I don’t want her to [contact me]".  If this is an honest truth for you I would strongly suggest removing any connection between you.  

Social media is the perfect method for self flagellation (beaten the hell out of yourself).  If you cut all contact your phone will no longer be a demon sitting on your night stand -you will no longer wake every morning with the bitter sweet dread of checking to see if she sent a note.  You will be able to set down your phone and walk away from it once in a while rather than having it always at hand.

If you want to help you recovery from this relationship and are really ready to admit it was not a healthy relationship for you then act accordingly.  Take the initiative, be proactive, and swing the balance of power back to you.   By waiting for her message you are keeping yourself in a very unbalanced and precarious state.

I remember how much this hurts.  I wish I had known then what I know now -without serious psychological intervention there is little hope of a healthy relationship with someone suffering from BPD.  In other words if she came back this will happen again -what is more after each reconciliation a break up is even more likely.  Damage has been done -things have been said.  You will know deep in your heart you cannot trust her -you will be constantly waiting for the other shoe to drop.  This would create a pall over the relationship.

I now describe my ex as 'not being ready for a healthy relationship at this point in her life'.  I hope for her sake she one day gets the help she needs -but my watch is done.

It is time to figure out what your needs are and see to them (easier said than done).

Wicker Man

Make sure to get out of the house and take a walk daily.  The compression of waiting by the phone or computer takes a toll.  I found seeing the Sun and hearing birds, seeing flowers really helps put things into perspective.  Take care of yourself: eat right and try to sleep enough. 

[Sadly]

Wicker Man
This wasn’t to me, but thank you. x

[Wicker Man]

This wasn’t to me...

Whereas we write our thoughts and observations in a specific person's thread I have always considered this community much closer to group therapy rather than an individual affair.  All of our experiences differ, but there is a common need to understanding and through understanding we can begin the process of healing.  Cross pollination between the threads is, in my opinion, important.

We, all of us here on the Detaching board, have suffered the loss of someone special to us -this is painful and often, if the end was abrupt, confusing.  This creates somewhat of a common ground amongst us -through sharing insights, thoughts and feelings we foster nurturing and catharsis

--This is a good place.

I had my own dark moments of feeling lost and worse yet feeling unable to begin a healthy grieving process.  If I remember correctly... My first thread was something to the effect of 'The world seems grey since I left the searing brilliance of her love'...   It takes time and a lot of self care -but it gets better.  This board was a helpful influence on my road to feeling like myself again.


Wicker Man

[clvrnn]

Yes, I would like to echo the other post in thank you for that piece of advice, Wicker Man.

[Hiscaru]

I couldn't agree more. This forum has helped me so much, being able to connect with and talk to people who have dealt with something of similar degree is very comforting. I know that being with someone with BPD is hard, and I know that unless they are being heavily treated for it, it's mos likely a lost cause. I miss my ex, a lot, but everyday that passes by I slowly start to get more and more over her. Iv'e been through breakups, but not like this. I guess it's the cheating that really got to me. We always talked about how bad people who cheat are, and it's ironic that she was the one to do it to me. I wish I could forget sooner and move on with my life, unfortunately this is something that will most likely haunt me for a while. Does anyone else have this same feeling?

[Wicker Man]

...it's ironic that she was the one to do it [cheating] to me. I wish I could forget sooner and move on with my life, unfortunately this is something that will most likely haunt me for a while. Does anyone else have this same feeling?

I certainly can sadly concur on both accounts.  My ex cheated on us (I say us because her behavior hurt both of us and our relationship -this was not all about me) at least twice.  The first time she denied it vehemently the second I believe she didn't think I knew about.  I don't know if it will be helpful or interesting, but I will describe the instances in brief.

The first time I thought she was angry with me for being out of country.  We had just only decided to be exclusive.  In hind sight I would now should guess she was feeling abandoned and was feeling empty and angry.  She went to dinner and drinks with a mutual acquaintance and she ended up spending the night at his apartment.  BPD and alcohol are like hydrazine and fire -just say no. I chose hydrazine because it is highly combustible -extremely toxic, caustic, and likely carcinogenic.

We talked this slip up through and she claimed 'nothing happened'.  Well...  There is a sad irony here -she is, I learned later, a pathological liar and one would think she would be good at something she practices so frequently... But alas no. 

Her story changed so often it was brutally apparent something was not being said.  This culminated in me having a business meeting with this guy a year later.  So... I am walking to the meeting talking with her on the phone.  She says -'You should be careful he might tell a lot of horrible lies about me and  that night'.  I said 'ok'... Hung up the phone and thought to myself 'Oh my poor dear -you are simply horrible at lying.' 

The second instance was far and a way worse.  She was at work in a different city and I had called her out on a promise she broke.  In hindsight, I now believe she felt shame from making a mistake and, although I never raised my voice, I was firm in explaining why I had asked her to make the promise in the first place (her safety).  From what I have read about BPD I believe she was embarrassed and full of shame so...  As a coping mechanism she stopped talking to me for a week and began sleeping with an actor.

I have often said I do not believe people with BPD are all necessarily manipulative in a premeditated fashion.  There isn't necessarily a Machiavellian plan in the works, they are instead desperately and dysfunctionally trying to elevate feelings of pain, shame, self loathing and emptiness. 

The day before we stopped speaking we were discussing how big of a house I should buy for us and her grandparents in her home town.  Literally we went from discussing real-estate to her hopping in bed with an actor and ceasing all contact between us.  --I was poleaxed! 

Having no concept of BPD -I am sure I had learned something about it in college 20 years ago (somewhere a professor laughs...).  However instead of seeing her mistreatment of me for what it was I performed all manner of mental gymnastics and held onto the notion of fairytale love.  I projected my stability, honestly, and kindness onto her.  Her actions simply did not make sense from my worldview and perspective. 

Check your premise - If you seem to be confronting a contradiction, then at least one of your relevant beliefs is false.

Oh the irony!  For someone who has likely read every word Ayn Rand has written to be so willing to blind myself to an obvious, glaring, and dangerous contradiction is precious. 

My relevant belief which was false was my assumption of her wishing to have a thriving and healthy relationship and her possessing the tools to accomplish this goal.


"My philosophy, in essence, is the concept of man as a heroic being, with his own happiness as the moral purpose of his life, with productive achievement as his noblest activity, and reason as his only absolute." — Ayn Rand

I believe deeply she wants to love and be loved, but lacks the emotional sophistication and psychological tools at this point in her life to do so.

This quote got me into a lot of trouble:

"By believing passionately in something that still does not exist, we create it. The nonexistent is whatever we have not sufficiently desired."  --Kafka

Well... I now know for damn sure Franz was not referring so relationships when he put these wonderful words together...  By trying to use this idea, which had served me so well in all manner of endeavor though out my life I attached myself to and became engulfed in a very damaging relationship.  I tried my human best, but simply had no idea there are people who are innately self destructive -I guess perhaps theoretically I knew, but would have never guessed I would fall in love with one of them (dumbass)...

Now after being out of the relationship for 18 months (roughly the duration of the time we spent together) my best guess at why these relationships are so painful is the cognitive dissonance caused by misunderstanding the difference in how we looked at the relationship versus how it was seen by our partners.  She once said to me 'I need you' -I asked her in Mandarin 'did you mean to say 'need?' -she said 'Yes I did'.  I told her no one has ever said this to me before. 

Need in a relationship is not healthy or sustainable.  Being needed will inevitably lead to being resented as soon as you are not filling the need sufficiently.  I believed I was like a drug for her which alleviated some of her inner turmoil, but like a drug I believe in the long run she would have developed a tolerance to my soothing effect.  Well -she had all of my love, all of my attention and I had nothing more to give.  Once this would not have been enough there would have been hell to pay.  Our relationship ended while still in the 'honeymoon' period.  I was spared the full brunt of a long term dysfunctional and damaging relationship.  Her final 7 day rage woke me up -she broke up with me and I agreed it was for the best. 

We talk about boundaries here.  For me a line in the sand is threatening to break up.  I had explained to her breaking up is not a tool of negotiation.

Several of you are talking about entertaining the notion of taking your partner back -- I want you to ask yourselves how would you ever be able to build a thriving relationship with someone who can leave at any moment?

I read something written by someone suffering from BPD about splitting.  She was sometimes splitting her beloved pet dog black.  She said when she split the dog black the dog's appearance literally changed from cute and fluffy to ugly and dirty until the feeling passed.  Fortunately, for her she gained some insight into how this must transfer to human relationships. 

I mention this as a parable.  We cannot love disorder out of people.  Unless there is serious psychological intervention the cycle of splitting will not stop -if you think you can love someone more consistency than their beloved pet think again.  If even fluffy was susceptible to being split -we mere mortals have no chance of avoiding it.

Wicker Man

[juniorswailing]

''I am sorry she does not wish for you to be her friend -but...  Here is my thought on the matter regarding my ex.  My watch is done, I can no longer try to help her and I no longer have any influence on her life's decisions [perhaps presumptuous to assume I ever had any lasting influence on her life's decisions]  Finally to my point -I am fairly certain my ex will continue to make terrible life choices and I still care enough for her to not want to watch the slow motion train wreck that is her life.  Perhaps her unwillingness to be your friend is a blessing in disguise.''


I have read a lot, and I mean a LOT, of stuff on this matter since coming to the realization  that my wife suffers from BPD and these are far and away the wisest words I've read on the subject.

We have now split up after months of turmoil and some day soon I may post my experiences, but at the moment I'm just reveling in the fact I don't have to deal with her crap on a daily basis.

If anyone takes one thing from these boards, take these words.