push pull with ex bf, feeling hopeless

[Depression = 72% of members]

Hi all,

I'm looking for some perspective from people who may have had experience with similar push/pull patterns.

After an epic breakup, my BPDexbf and I reconnected. Our 3 yr relationship ended abruptly with cheating, cruel words, and intense devaluation (of me). It's like he became a different person overnight, and since we've been back in each other's lives I've been slowly coming to terms with the fact that while a lot of these changes are unhealthy and may not represent the person that me/his family have always known him to be, that's who he is now and I shouldn't try to/can't change it.

We were no contact for about 3 months and the day that we met up, we had a long conversation about everything, he explained his diagnosis, I got my answers and as much closure as is possible in such a bizarre situation, although I'm still hurting for sure. But that night began a whole new rollercoaster - he wanted to spend the night together and ever since we've been spending a lot of time with each other, he's been throwing I love you/you make me so happy/I want to be with you (in an open relationship, however, because he doesn't believe in commitment at the moment) around along with I never meant any of those things/I want you in my life heavily but I never want to date you/I hate you/You make my life so difficult, etc. We've had periods where he'll say we're "together" and he wants to hang out four times a week and he'll reach out every day, but for the past month and a half or so (we go to different schools so we've only seen each other a few times since the semester began), he's been far more consistently distant. The last 2 times we saw each other, it was still intimate and definitely more than friendly, but he'll go from getting close and reminiscing about the past and showing emotions to cutting it off and being curt with me and very clearing wanting to distance himself from the emotional aspect of things, even though he'll still initiate kissing and being intimate, etc. (for example, the other night we spent 6 hours snuggling on the couch/being intimate at his request, but if I called him "love" or "baby" or say I love you he'd tell me we can't say those things).

Yet when we saw each other in late February, he loved me so much and he wanted to mess around with other people because we're in college but I'm the person he wants to be with and he wants to be together and he's telling me he loves me and being super affectionate and doing all of the things he told me not to do the other night. He's told me that his mind changes 24/7 and he can't control it, but he's also told me that he never meant it when he said he loved me in that way and he doesn't know why he's been telling me those things, and he wants to basically do whatever he wants when we're together (which is, again, beyond friendly) with no commitment. I've given up on trying to decode if he ever meant anything he's said in the past 4 months because quite frankly it's depressing.

But since his last "switch" he's sent extreme mixed messages. He'll basically hint (not so subtly) that everything I do annoys him and he has to force himself to hang out with me (for my sake, like it's charity) and I "break the rules" (he has pretty severe OCD so if I say certain things he gets anxious. Also if i bring up our 'past' in any way he gets extremely angry and avoidant and tells me to get over it because he has, sometimes I think that his response is driven by a lot of guilt because he showed really intense remorse at first but now can't admit fault for anything - he'll even tell me I should thank him for doing what he did because I lost so much weight while I was depressed, ). It's gotten to the point where he'll rage out and scream if I take too long to tell a story - when I open my mouth I sort of expect him to hate me lately. But then 20 minutes later he'll be kissing me and we'll be laughing hysterically and we'll fall back into our old rhythm. A month ago I tried to tell him we couldn't be in each other's lives because he'd gotten verbally abusive and violent (not towards me) and it's destroying me and although he says all of these things about how miserable I supposedly make him no matter how hard I try to swallow my feelings and "behave" for his sake (pathetic, I know), when I try to walk away he says he "doesn't accept that." Yet when he lashes out and I show that I'm sad in any fashion, he tells me to just stop hanging out with him if I can't take him hurting me. And he acknowledges that I'm the one who wants to hang out more and lately I have to initiate everything (although he's like that with all of his friends), but again when I try to walk away he doesn't want me to. It's like he truly hates me but pulls me back in for whatever reason even while he's screaming at me. I'm starting to realize that the way that any given time we'll spend together ends up panning out is pretty much only dependent on where his feelings for me are at/his headspace and mood because I approach every time I see him feeling just as tortured about it and smiling and trying to have fun and avoid that in the exact same way, but lately every time my same actions/demeanor get a different reaction.

It's gotten to the point where I'm blaming myself for everything and feeling like a really worthless person. My dad thinks maybe he just doesn't want me around at all anymore and doesn't want to tell me, but then why wouldn't he let me cut things off when I tried? And why does he go back and forth being sweet/affectionate? He's really troubled I should add although he's very content living this way, he doesn't take his medication or get help and he's self medicating hardcore with pot, failing school, and clearly really struggling with his identity as he reinvents himself and his friends every week lately. He also has a really troubled family that's going through a hostile divorce.

So I guess I'm not sure how to make sense of what he's throwing at me or if there's any making sense of it. Could it be that simple, that he doesn't mean any of the things he's been saying and just wants me around every once in a while for the hell of it? It's so hard to accept that because we were so extremely close for years and had such an intense, loving relationship up until the very end. We truly were best friends and I used to be the only person who he confided in that supported him unconditionally, we really cared so much about each other. It's just so unlike him. But maybe he's splitting again with me pretty frequently? I'm not sure what I'm doing to cause this/if it has nothing to do with me.

Not talking to him or making plans every once in a while kills me, but I also don't want to make him hate me further. I give him plenty of space when it seems like he wants it, like weeks of silence, but it's so hard to keep up because one day he loves me so much and the next I'm a nuisance. He's got a really active social life and avoids just about everything so I sometimes think that I'm a crappy reminder of someone he cares about that he's hurting and a life back at home that he wants to leave behind or ignore. I'm just not sure what the right thing to do is - I'm in therapy and have a great support system, but I don't want to let go even though he's destructive. But at the same time, I don't want to just be "friends" (although it seems like it's impossible for either of us to act that way around each other) if there's no hope of it ever going anywhere because I love him. He's just so critical and makes it so obvious that he knows what kind of power he has over me and I feel like such a clingy loser, for lack of a better word, even though everyone tells me I do/feel/want things that are completely within reason.

That was a lot, I'm sorry. Just looking for some perspective.

[allovertheplace]

Hi all,

I'm looking for some perspective from people who may have had experience with similar push/pull patterns.

After an epic breakup, my BPDexbf and I reconnected. Our 3 yr relationship ended abruptly with cheating, cruel words, and intense devaluation (of me). It's like he became a different person overnight, and since we've been back in each other's lives I've been slowly coming to terms with the fact that while a lot of these changes are unhealthy and may not represent the person that me/his family have always known him to be, that's who he is now and I shouldn't try to/can't change it.

We were no contact for about 3 months and the day that we met up, we had a long conversation about everything, he explained his diagnosis, I got my answers and as much closure as is possible in such a bizarre situation, although I'm still hurting for sure. But that night began a whole new rollercoaster - he wanted to spend the night together and ever since we've been spending a lot of time with each other, he's been throwing I love you/you make me so happy/I want to be with you (in an open relationship, however, because he doesn't believe in commitment at the moment) around along with I never meant any of those things/I want you in my life heavily but I never want to date you/I hate you/You make my life so difficult, etc. We've had periods where he'll say we're "together" and he wants to hang out four times a week and he'll reach out every day, but for the past month and a half or so (we go to different schools so we've only seen each other a few times since the semester began), he's been far more consistently distant. The last 2 times we saw each other, it was still intimate and definitely more than friendly, but he'll go from getting close and reminiscing about the past and showing emotions to cutting it off and being curt with me and very clearing wanting to distance himself from the emotional aspect of things, even though he'll still initiate kissing and being intimate, etc. (for example, the other night we spent 6 hours snuggling on the couch/being intimate at his request, but if I called him "love" or "baby" or say I love you he'd tell me we can't say those things).

Yet when we saw each other in late February, he loved me so much and he wanted to mess around with other people because we're in college but I'm the person he wants to be with and he wants to be together and he's telling me he loves me and being super affectionate and doing all of the things he told me not to do the other night. He's told me that his mind changes 24/7 and he can't control it, but he's also told me that he never meant it when he said he loved me in that way and he doesn't know why he's been telling me those things, and he wants to basically do whatever he wants when we're together (which is, again, beyond friendly) with no commitment. I've given up on trying to decode if he ever meant anything he's said in the past 4 months because quite frankly it's depressing.

But since his last "switch" he's sent extreme mixed messages. He'll basically hint (not so subtly) that everything I do annoys him and he has to force himself to hang out with me (for my sake, like it's charity) and I "break the rules" (he has pretty severe OCD so if I say certain things he gets anxious. Also if i bring up our 'past' in any way he gets extremely angry and avoidant and tells me to get over it because he has, sometimes I think that his response is driven by a lot of guilt because he showed really intense remorse at first but now can't admit fault for anything - he'll even tell me I should thank him for doing what he did because I lost so much weight while I was depressed, ). It's gotten to the point where he'll rage out and scream if I take too long to tell a story - when I open my mouth I sort of expect him to hate me lately. But then 20 minutes later he'll be kissing me and we'll be laughing hysterically and we'll fall back into our old rhythm. A month ago I tried to tell him we couldn't be in each other's lives because he'd gotten verbally abusive and violent (not towards me) and it's destroying me and although he says all of these things about how miserable I supposedly make him no matter how hard I try to swallow my feelings and "behave" for his sake (pathetic, I know), when I try to walk away he says he "doesn't accept that." Yet when he lashes out and I show that I'm sad in any fashion, he tells me to just stop hanging out with him if I can't take him hurting me. And he acknowledges that I'm the one who wants to hang out more and lately I have to initiate everything (although he's like that with all of his friends), but again when I try to walk away he doesn't want me to. It's like he truly hates me but pulls me back in for whatever reason even while he's screaming at me. I'm starting to realize that the way that any given time we'll spend together ends up panning out is pretty much only dependent on where his feelings for me are at/his headspace and mood because I approach every time I see him feeling just as tortured about it and smiling and trying to have fun and avoid that in the exact same way, but lately every time my same actions/demeanor get a different reaction.

It's gotten to the point where I'm blaming myself for everything and feeling like a really worthless person. My dad thinks maybe he just doesn't want me around at all anymore and doesn't want to tell me, but then why wouldn't he let me cut things off when I tried? And why does he go back and forth being sweet/affectionate? He's really troubled I should add although he's very content living this way, he doesn't take his medication or get help and he's self medicating hardcore with pot, failing school, and clearly really struggling with his identity as he reinvents himself and his friends every week lately. He also has a really troubled family that's going through a hostile divorce.

So I guess I'm not sure how to make sense of what he's throwing at me or if there's any making sense of it. Could it be that simple, that he doesn't mean any of the things he's been saying and just wants me around every once in a while for the hell of it? It's so hard to accept that because we were so extremely close for years and had such an intense, loving relationship up until the very end. We truly were best friends and I used to be the only person who he confided in that supported him unconditionally, we really cared so much about each other. It's just so unlike him. But maybe he's splitting again with me pretty frequently? I'm not sure what I'm doing to cause this/if it has nothing to do with me.

Not talking to him or making plans every once in a while kills me, but I also don't want to make him hate me further. I give him plenty of space when it seems like he wants it, like weeks of silence, but it's so hard to keep up because one day he loves me so much and the next I'm a nuisance. He's got a really active social life and avoids just about everything so I sometimes think that I'm a crappy reminder of someone he cares about that he's hurting and a life back at home that he wants to leave behind or ignore. I'm just not sure what the right thing to do is - I'm in therapy and have a great support system, but I don't want to let go even though he's destructive. But at the same time, I don't want to just be "friends" (although it seems like it's impossible for either of us to act that way around each other) if there's no hope of it ever going anywhere because I love him. He's just so critical and makes it so obvious that he knows what kind of power he has over me and I feel like such a clingy loser, for lack of a better word, even though everyone tells me I do/feel/want things that are completely within reason.

That was a lot, I'm sorry. Just looking for some perspective.

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

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[Ozzie101]

I experienced some definite push-pull with my uBPDh, though to a lesser degree than what you described.

My H was very loving and attentive and made lots of "I love you so much" "I don't deserve you" "You're incredible" comments. When he was in his dysregulation phase, he told me how selfish I was, complained that he never got time away from me unless he was at work, etc. At his worst, he told me he hated me.

Those are difficult things to hear from someone we care about.

The thing about pwBPD is feelings=facts. So often, even when they're flipping back and forth, black and white, yes, they genuinely believe what they're saying in the moment. It's hard for a Non to wrap his/her head around, but it's generally not a game. You said he's switching identities on a regular basis. The hot and cold relationship dynamic is similar. His sense of self is very weak. He has no core anchor inside him. So, he's buffeted about by the waves and the wind.

That's a very difficult thing to live with -- as a pwBPD and as a Non.

My dad thinks maybe he just doesn't want me around at all anymore and doesn't want to tell me, but then why wouldn't he let me cut things off when I tried? And why does he go back and forth being sweet/affectionate?

Fear of abandonment and fear of engulfment can lead to behavior like this. People who fear abandonment will cling to others but will also push people away -- if they're going to be abandoned, they'd rather have control. Fear of engulfment also causes the push part of push-pull. Does any of that sound possible here?

If he's on drugs, that just magnifies everything -- the irrational behavior, mood swings. And his difficult family situation doesn't help either.

I know this is a relationship you've been struggling with for a while. You're right. You can't change it. Only he can make true change when he decides to. There are tools you can use to help make your relationship better and things you can do to make yourself and your position stronger, but that's IF you want to continue the relationship. That's a question only you can answer. Either way you choose, we're here for you and will do our best to help!

[allovertheplace]

Thank you so much for your response. I get so caught up in the ups and downs so having some sort of structure to ground his behaviors in helps so much.

Fear of abandonment and fear of engulfment can lead to behavior like this. People who fear abandonment will cling to others but will also push people away -- if they're going to be abandoned, they'd rather have control. Fear of engulfment also causes the push part of push-pull. Does any of that sound possible here?

This sounds like it could apply. His parents' relationship is so turbulent that the kids always fell by the wayside - he was definitely inadvertently neglected and retreated into himself. We've talked before about how he found a family in my family and how I was the first person to ever show him real consistent love. For the bulk of our relationship he was very vulnerable with me and only me - we were both attached and I could see a fear of abandonment playing into that.

It's since flipped -  a fear of engulfment or of being tied down with no way out makes sense. He identifies with a group of family/friends that live a reckless "free" sort of lifestyle that's not compatible with being in a relationship and now it's the centerpiece of his identity. He's anti-commitment, which he's vocalized - at one point when he was questioning if he wanted an open relationship I was thinking about how arbitrary the label was because regardless we would be taking the same role in each other's lives. I think it's more his fear of the idea of not having full independence because he would have an obligation to another person - now he really values being able to do/be whatever or whoever he wants and to disappear at will.

I think another aspect of it could have something to do with guilt. Regardless of the exact nature of his feelings at any given moment or his demeanor towards me, I do know we care about each other a lot. He's well aware that his actions destroyed me and he was really upset when I first told him, and he knows that I'm still not in a very good place. But he also knows that he still can't control the impulsive emotions that caused him to act that way so implicating me in his life/making promises he isn't sure he can keep is a liability.

Our last blow out started as a light conversation where I asked where his feelings were. It seemed like his I love/want you feelings - which he was so adamant and sure about - had shifted since the last time I'd seen him, he was a lot more avoidant. I was trying to not be accusatory or pressure him, but I did say that if those feelings have changed I'm not sure if it's healthy for me to be spending this kind of time with him. He got super aggressive and that's when he told me that he never meant the I love you/I want to be with you any time he said it - when I told him that I had to walk away it was like he was trying to aggressively and frantically rationalize with me, at one point he said "okay so you can't be with me if I tell you things and I take them back so what if I go to a doctor and I can guarantee I'll never say anything I don't mean again can you hang out with me then are we good?" If this makes any sense I sort of got the impression that he understood that when he tells me he feels one thing and then takes it back it hurts me, so he doesn't want to say or do anything that might come off as him being committed so that he's not on the hook for potentially hurting me again because the feelings are out of his control and I don't think he really understands them either.

It seems like sometimes he tries to guarantee me that he'll never want to date me and he emphasizes the potential of him being with other people because at least he's giving me a consistent stance that he can't let me down on. That would make sense given that since that last major shift and the blow out/me trying to walk away he's suddenly so careful about not wanting to say I love you or affectionate things - the last time we got invested in that he shifted and the rapid change confused and hurt me, so maybe now if he doesn't say that at all he's not subjecting me to the crazy up/down.

I'm not sure if any of that is realistic though or if I'm just trying to rationalize to make myself feel better.

If that's the case I appreciate him being self-aware and knowing that he can't keep his emotions consistent, I just wish there was a way for him to articulate that without telling me that every time he said he loved me it was a lie and he doesn't know why he ever would have told me he wanted to be with me etc. because of course those things hurt, and given some of the things he said during our breakup they trigger a lot of insecurity. From what I understand, with BPD every feeling is very real in the moment. It seems ridiculous to imagine that he never meant those things (this was also an explanation he gave me when we broke up - "I realized I never loved you in the 'right' way, only as a friend", which he's since taken back). But also I guess I have to anticipate that what comes up will definitely come back down and not count on anything being temporary.

It seems like everybody in my life sees an obvious pattern and insists that it has nothing to do with me, just that he's spiraling and has no idea who he is/what he wants. They seem to think that the actual situation/where we stand never really changes even when his feelings supposedly shift, it's just the degree that he's presenting them that makes it seem to me like some massive conclusions have been made, but he likely doesn't see it that way. But it's so difficult to depersonalize things like that.

I'm just not sure what hopes/expectations are realistic for me to hold onto. If i shouldn't rely on his "I want to be with you" feelings being consistent, should I also assume that his "I never want to be with you" feelings are also not permanent?

[Ozzie101]

I'm just not sure what hopes/expectations are realistic for me to hold onto. If i shouldn't rely on his "I want to be with you" feelings being consistent, should I also assume that his "I never want to be with you" feelings are also not permanent?

From what I've read about BPD, experienced myself and what you've written, I would say that you shouldn't count on permanency. His feelings/moods/beliefs will shift -- sometimes suddenly. As I said, it's a difficult situation to be in. Many people here have been able to make it work. Many haven't. Many have decided it's just not for them. Many have tried hard but ultimately were either abandoned or had to leave for their own well-being.

Only you can decide what's right for you. If you're hoping that he will settle down into some sort of consistency, honestly, I don't think that's likely to happen. Not without him doing a LOT of work on himself.

I know you've struggled a lot in the past with your own mental health. How is that going? Are you working with a therapist?