Push/Pull Behaviour

[Supertrouper]

Hi, my new thread is about the push/pull behaviour of my BPD.

I have recognised this behaviour in him over the last few years and it still gets to me about how i effectively navigate it. Is there anywhere on this site that i could look for information?

While my BPD was away, it was me initiating conversations. Now he has come home and its still me initiating conversations. He talks but the majority of the conversation is him saying things like, ‘you are a mentalist, you’re not from this planet, you’re not like everyone else, they talk sense’, all those sorts of things. And im only ever asking him how his days gone and what hes been doing and i just get those sort of comments thrown back at me. I do ask why he thinks im a mentalist etc, but he doesnt answer. So in the end i change the subject. He is usually the one to finish conversations.

I know he is tired and stressed from work and he needs a bit of space and i can get on with my own stuff but i do find these push stages a difficult stage to know what to do, unless he tells me directly what he wants or does not want. For instance, he is going to the cinema during the day tomorrow and i asked him if he wanted me to pick him up after so i could bring him home, he just said no. So i know that means he wants to be on his own, ie. not with me. Thats fine, that is direct. But other times i have to guess, for instance, does he want to hear from me every day or am i being annoying, or if i dont call him or at least text, will he think i dont care and he will get annoyed at me because i havent called.

It is more difficult sometimes this stage because he is only home for two weeks then goes away again, so the pull stage is sometimes not even achieved while hes home.

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[I Am Redeemed]

Hi. Supertrouper,

Have you looked through the Library at all the different workshops and psychology questions and answers? I found this one on the push/pull behavior:

Push/Pull Behavior

Are you the one who primarily initiates daily contact? Does he text or call you if you don't do it first?

[Supertrouper]

Hi thank you, i will have a look at it.

While he was away, i texted/called every other day or so. Now he is back, it’s usually me who texts/calls first.

[Supertrouper]

Hi, the push/pull behaviour is the behaviour that confuses me the most, because to me it comes from nowhere. But i know that is because i don’t understand really what it is like to have those fears of engulfment and abandonment, so this is why i struggle to know how to navigate through it.

This latest push, im not even sure where that has come from. I havent seen him for four weeks as hes been working away, so i dont know if its engulfment or abandonment hes feeling. All i know is that texting back to me is as far as he can come near me at the moment. Initiating contact is something he cant do.

I texted him tonight, i know he wont do it, to ask if hed enjoyed the film. He said he couldnt be bothered to go. I asked what hed done instead, he said house stuff. Thats usually code for maybe tidied one thing, then got bored and then went to the pub for the rest of the day. At least, i didnt get any insulting comments today. I kept it short and said for him to enjoy his evening. This push/pull stops our relationship because he cant help doing it and i dont know what to do to help.

[I Am Redeemed]

Do I remember correctly, in one of your other threads, you talked about his excessive drinking, and the issue it caused?

I just had a thought that maybe he doesn't want you to know if he is drinking, or how much. Maybe that factors into his periods of limited contact.

Just a hunch, I could be wrong, but as a recovering addict/alcoholic, I have seen people act this way when attempting to hide the amount of alcohol or drugs they are using. It's a shame-based behavior, with or without the BPD.

Does he contact you more when he is away?

[Supertrouper]

Hi, i still contact him initially when he is away, but not as much.

Im not sure he is ashamed about his drinking. . He knows i know where he is, he only goes to two pubs. I do believe he knows he drinks too mych when he is anxious.

He does know that his pushing me away, hurts me. It still hurts but not as much, it annoys me more than anything, although i dont voice it,  because it makes the relationship go backwards, in a way.

[Supertrouper]

Spoken to him today, yeah again I initiated contact. I just wanted to see if he wanted to do something over the holiday weekend. He was ok about it. Then i asked him what he would like to do, and he said he didnt know. So i had to come up with some suggestions. He then said i cant organise anything because i never know what you’ve organised with your friends. I asked him to clarify, he replied you are always going out with others. I think this may be why the latest emotional distance is happening, plus his tiredness of work. Remember he has been away for four weeks, and yes i have been out with others as he says, but i am allowed to, as i am when he is at home, but i dont make any plans with them, if we may have plans, i just wouldn’t.

[I Am Redeemed]

It sounds like he is wanting you to take the lead in both communication and making plans together. How does he respond to your suggestions of how to spend time with each other?

Does he expect you to guess what he wants, instead of telling you? it sounds like he has placed himself in somewhat of a "victim" role; i.e. "I can't make plans because you have probably already decided to do something else."

Perhaps he has a fear of being rejected, or that if he contacts you first while he is away, you will be busy doing something else and not make time for him. If he lets you initiate all the contact, it's a way of "proving" over and over again that you want to be with him.

[Supertrouper]

Hi, ive always thought he wanted me to take the lead, but sometimes it would be nice if he did. He is ok with my suggestions and offers some input, i usually give a choice though, and if he really doesnt want to do something, he will say so.

Sometimes he expects me to guess, i have many times told him im not psychic. Ive just asked him if he would like to stay overnight somewhere over the weekend, gave him a choice, which he chose. However, he then went on to saying i usually prioritise my friends over him. I dont when he is home.  I didnt answer or jade, but i was angry, and he knew i was annoyed at what he said. There was no need for it. So ive learnt to just change the subject.

Your last paragraph, i can understand that and sometimes i have been out and havent been able to hear him call, so have not responded as soon as hed like i suppose. He does initiate contact sometimes though, when he is a bit more normal and says call/ text when im free, and it might not be for a while, so i just think this limited contact is just when he is dsyregulated

The thing with the friends is a problem though. I try to only see them when he is away, or when he is distant, because then i need to keep occupied. However, if something comes up with friends while he is home, and it is rare, i will go and usually he is ok as long as i keep in contact with him.

[Supertrouper]

Ive just read your post again, and you are the second person to suggest he puts himself in a victim role. Why would he?

[I Am Redeemed]

It is fairly common for pwBPD. I think it has to do with avoiding responsibility for one's own feelings. The idea is that feelings must be caused by something outside of the pwBPD; they frequently see things as out of their control and happening "to them". He may not be able to understand that his insecurity about your friends comes from his fear of abandonment, and is not grounded in reality. He is worried that you would rather spend time with them instead of him (even if that isnt true) and he feels vulnerable and unable to do anything about it. Instead of just saying "hey, I want to spend time with you", he feels that he can't get what he wants because of the plans made with friends (even if you didn't make any) and he is therefore a victim of something happening "to him", instead of accepting that his fears are creating the feeling in him.

This is also what leads some pwBPD to think that it is someone else's job to fix their feelings for them.

[Supertrouper]

Hi IAR, So how do i address this insecurity of him with the friends issue? How do i validate that he is feeling that using SET.

Can i just ask why you asked if he asked me to guess what he wants? He has done that a lot. I always just thought that because he didnt really have a ‘self’, he didnt know either.

[Supertrouper]

Hi, went out to meet partner and we had a nice time. Until he had one too many beers, and I honestly do believe he drinks so that he can get his feelings out, but they come out all over the place with accusations etc.  I listened and validated and he listened to my points. Then he went on about me not wanting to spend time with him and that i spend time with others.

I jaded a bit. I just told him that i dont get time to spend a lot of time with others because, my time is spent working, working to pay the bills, i dont get time to myself to go out with others because i have to keep house and look after the children. I was with him, so i said that the main time that i got to myself was the time i spent with him. Then i had to go to the loo to calm down.

We were ok talking after that but i was not allowed to touch him or give him a cuddle. I think my talk made his intimacy even less. I dont know what to do about the friends/others issue. Its not true and i dont think i will ever get him to see that.

[I Am Redeemed]

Hi Supertrouper,

My ex used to expect me to guess what he wanted, anticipate what he would want, and fulfill the need all without any input from him. I think he believed that if I really loved him, I would just "know" his needs. He would go so far as to rewrite history and paint me black if I couldn't guess his needs.

For instance, one time he had knee surgery (outpatient), and when we got home from the doctor that night I was going to cook dinner. He complained that his stomach was queasy. I tried to ask him what he thought he could eat. He wouldn't tell me, so I made dinner for the kids. Later he got up and cooked himself something to eat, complaining the whole time about how horrible it was that I couldn't figure out what his stomach could handle. For years he would bring up this incident and berate me for being a sorry person who wouldn't cook him dinner after his knee surgery, and he had to do it himself.

If I pointed out that all he had to do was tell me what he wanted to eat and I would have made it for him, he shot that down, saying he shouldn't have to tell me, and that I was just using that as an excuse for not doing it, because I really just didn't want to help him.

In that example, you can see how he was both expecting me to anticipate and fulfill a need of his without him lifting a finger, and also how he painted himself as a victim when I was unable to read his mind.

I found a workshop here that might help you. It talks about SET but also some other communication techniques. Maybe it will give you some more ideas of how to communicate with your BF. I do think that if he's drinking, it probably isn't the best time to try to communicate, though, because he's likely to be more emotional than ever and not receptive to what you have to say.

Listen and Be Heard

There's also a video posted in the workshop about using SET, as well as a link to the lesson on ending conflict.

Blessings and peace,

Redeemed

[Supertrouper]

Thank you. I can understand your incident with his stomach, i have had many instances of a similar kind.

I will look at the other articles. I don’t communicate when he has been drinking because not only is he emotional and very BPD, he can’t remember what was said, so a waste of time.

Yesterday, he was still a bit grumpy, but then he was grumpy with others. I asked him if he wanted to go somewhere else for a quick drink, that i would drive, just for a change of scenery. He said yes and we went and it was nice. But when we get back to his usual drinking establishment, he said, ‘you took me there to get me away from here’. Cant win.

Anyway, we had made plans today but he has just changed his, i guess too much beer. But obviously my fault. Never mind, i have a chance to go out with others anyway, so i will, after ive met him for a while.

[I Am Redeemed]

Anyway, we had made plans today but he has just changed his, i guess too much beer. But obviously my fault. Never mind, i have a chance to go out with others anyway, so i will, after ive met him for a while.

Good for you, don't let his bad moods keep you from making your own plans. It sounds like he is not going to be satisfied with anything and is determined to be in a bad mood regardless of what happens. That's his choice. I'm glad to see that you are not letting his choices influence whether or not you choose to go out with your friends. That's self care! 

[Supertrouper]

Well i had a great time with my friends. I went to meet BPDbf afterwards on the promise that he would not be too drunk. I called him first and he sounded fine, so i went to meet him. Well he must have just been near to being drunk when i called, because he was drunk when I arrived. He tried to be obnoxious but as id had only a few drinks, my brain could ignore or rebound the comments straight back. He then went on to talk, i just listened, as his talking gets jumbled and most of his thoughts get jumbled, so you dont get to hear much sense. But then occasionally you get something. He again said last night, that he appreciated that i was trying in the relationship, but he still said it was probably doomed. Now, that from my perspective,  he isn’t trying and one person ie myself cant just keep the relationship going or and he wants me to try harder so that he does not have to bother. Or that the relationship is really doomed. He kept going on about after 6 years we havent got very far and that this is the longest relationship he has had, snd its bizarre that we havent got forward.

Yesterday we were talking about how we should get his house finished etc, and last night he mentioned his own ideas about it. Its 6 years ive been waiting for that to happen. So i will keep trying to encourage that, work together with him and see what progress we can get from there.

Yesterday as well I found out why he is funny about the friends i go out with. They were mutual friends, although previously his friends only. Again the other night he talked about it, it comes from nowhere. He said, its your fault im not friends with them, because you kept contacting them. I didnt say anything because he had been drinking and he wont listen then.

The truth is i have kept in contact with the ladies of the group because they are good company but because when he was rude to me in front of them, they didnt like it and unfortunately they will not give him the time of day now. However, the men of that group who obviously talk to me as well and have known him for years, he doesn’t want to talk to either, but they do want to talk to him but they have tried to contact him but he doesnt reply. Its a shame. Im not sure what can be done about it really to improve it as the male friends havent taken sides, and im certain they want to become friends again.

[SunandMoon]

It seems obvious to me that he feels shame that he abused you in the pub, Supertrouper, and these ladies defended you. Because his friends witnessed it, he is embarrassed and wants to push the blame onto them - or drop his friendship with them, rather than admit that what he did is wrong.

It also seems that he is putting a lot of pressure on you not to spend time with them or maintain the friendships. Isolating their partners is pretty common for abusers.

What makes you think he has BPD? Has he been diagnosed? His behaviour sounds more like npd.

[Supertrouper]

Hi SaM, I think he is trying to stop me seeing them too. He takes every opportunity to tell me how bad they are. They arent though and i will keep seeing them because i want to.

When i realised something was not quite right with his behaviour, i looked at BPD and npd, and just from reading about it and observing his behaviour, i think he is mainly BPD with npd traits mixed in. As for a diagnosis, i have never been sure. He has never told me he has had a diagnosis but he knows he is difficult and that his mental health is not quite right. I believe he knows there is something wrong, but he doesnt know it is a personality disorder.

[SunandMoon]

That's good, Supertrouper - I'm glad you recognise the npd traits 

I think he is trying to stop me seeing them too. He takes every opportunity to tell me how bad they are. They arent though and i will keep seeing them because i want to

This is really important, especially as he works away a lot. It's healthy to have friends you can go out with and enjoy fun times together.

These friends know him and I think you said one had known him for many years. Do you discuss any of his behaviour with them? What do they think?

[Supertrouper]

Hi SaM, i dont discuss his behaviour much with them, they ask me how he is and i tell them little bits. They tell me more about how he was and they know how he can be.

This Saturday coming i will be going out for a joint birthday celebration, mine included, with the ladies of that group of friends and some other friends of mine. Originally BPDbf was meant to be working away, so there would be no issue. However, because his work schedule has changed, he will be home. So, i am still going as it is for my birthday, so i thought i would need to tell him.

So yesterday I told him that i would be busy on Saturday night as i was celebrating my birthday with friends. Admittedly it is another week till my birthday but this came up, do me and one of the other ladies, who’s birthday it also is at the end of May, thought it would be a good idea to get all of our friends together to celebrate. It is an important birthday. Immediately he asked who it was with, i told him. I expected some rudeness about it, which i got. I also got, ‘well i wont be celebrating your birthday with you, i hope your friends break their legs, they are not your friends.’ He then went on to try and manipulate what one of these friends had said to him about me, i feel to make her look bad in my eyes, but i know her, they dont talk, so i doubted that, and this is a new information to me. Then he tried to say i was stupid for going, i dont dance (its an 80’s disco), i do. How stupid of me to take my other friends with the c&£t friends, you all get together and just talk about me. We dont, but he thinks we do, he gets mentioned obviously, but that is it.

As i said I expected some objection. So i used SET to calm things down a bit. Then i said, i will meet you Friday, he is away for a few days, and then if you want, id like to go out for lunch on the Saturday daytime. He said, I’ll think about it. Again i expected that, but i would like to go out for lunch.

After that, we talked some more and again he mentioned how we’d been together for six years and how we hadn’t gotten too far forward, and we had to talk about it. He said, that i wasnt committed but i wouldnt let him go either and it needs to be sorted. I think we are both as equally to blame for that.

The night ended up ok. So not sure what he is going to be like on Saturday, not totally happy, no doubt, but hopefully he will come to lunch and hopefully we can have a nice afternoon.

[Supertrouper]

He had an extended stay at work so is not coming back till Saturday afternoon now, so we wont be going to lunch.

We have talked while hes been away and at every opportunity he has moaned about me going out with friends on Saturday night. We talked about other stuff but he has said something every day.

I called him today and he is ‘off’ again. For eg, he is a bit moody, not wanting to talk very much, says im not interested in his work stuff, although that’s all he’s talked about the last couple of days and ive listened.

Anyway, i asked him as he will be late tomorrow, if we could meet up on sunday, as he goes away again for 2 weeks on monday. I asked where he would be and he said the pub. So i said, id come and meet him before he went away. He then said, well thats not quality time in the pub, i agreed and asked if he wanted to do something else. He said i might. Then he asked why am i inviting myself to ‘man sunday’. He usually wants me to go. So i asked, did you want to be on your own on sunday, and again he said i might.

He is the one who volunteered to go to work, and denied us quality time. He is the one who was in a mood last week which denied us time together, and now he is being off about where we spend our quality time, we ALWAYS are in a pub, NOW to him thats not quality time.

Ive tried to suggest to do other things but then he doesnt make his mind up about them. I feel as if ive got to beg for quality time. I know a lot of this moodiness is because of me going out with friends, and to him, i suppose that is our quality time as well, but it was pre arranged for when he was meant to be away and it is once in a blue moon. I can only assume this is his way of controlling the situation by denying me quality time with him. I may be wrong.

[Supertrouper]

Ive just remembered what he said yesterday when I asked him about meeting up on sunday, he said i wouldnt be fit on sunday, after going out on Saturday. He thinks i will have to much to drink. I cant drink a lot and I actually can control the amount of alcohol i consume if i have plans the day after. That might be another reason why he is unsure about sunday.

[itsmeSnap]

Perhaps he has a fear of being rejected, or that if he contacts you first while he is away, you will be busy doing something else and not make time for him. If he lets you initiate all the contact, it's a way of "proving" over and over again that you want to be with him.

I have done that too, not contacting someone to "balance out" when I have been the one to initiate a few times already.

I have historically needed too much reassurance that a person actually still likes me and is not going away, and "demanded" it in subtle ways like asking to make plans, probe for romantic interest, asking outright if they still like me (that last one is not so subtle).

BPD is "normal" on overdrive, so his need to feel appreciated probably goes beyond reasonable.

Reassurance alone just doesn't work, the more I got them the more I asked for it.

I feel as if ive got to beg for quality time

That is most definitely a control thing. If he denies you and you go after him, then he gets attention and the feeling of being wanted. If not, he can blame you for not trying. Its a push and a pull at the same time.

What I find interesting is why he would not see the actual quality time as fulfilling?

[Supertrouper]

Hi, could you explain more why you find it interesting. Honestly i think quality time means something different to him at different times.  To say that quality time is not spent in a pub, when thats where we spend most of our time, is completely different.. He does not see just spending a few hours together before he goes away quality time, he would expect a weekend at least, which would normally be spent in a pub, which contradicts what he said.

[Supertrouper]

Hi, he came home sounding tired as usual. He says he has a mountain of things to do for monday, which im sure he has.

I texted him earlier to see if hed got home ok and he was busy do i said id call him later. I called him later. He seemed annoyed i had called him, said i was busy, so why was i bothering him. I said to at least say hello to each other. He understood and then went on about we havent got much time and how i was trying to pretend to make time for him. He has been away, he is going away on monday for two weeks, i am trying to make the time, the situation with this party and him going away has made it more difficult.

He said he is coming round tomorrow to collect some tools but that is it. He said we seem to be on a different agenda here, im coming round for my tools and you seem to want a cuddle. Whats wrong with that. Im trying to make the best of the time we have left before he goes. I think he heard in my voice i was peed off, so he said he would stay for coffee.

I understand he is busy and needs to get ready, i dont want to monopolize his time, but surely we should be making a teeny bit of effort.

Anyway, im going to have a great time tonight and looks like we have been upgraded to cackling hens rather than cackling c&£@s.

[itsmeSnap]

Hi supertrouper

could you explain more why you find it interesting. Honestly i think quality time means something different to him at different times.

The why's often seem more interesting to me than the what's.

If like you said he changes his mind often about what quality time means, there's probably a history of past disappointment when "good times" turned sour (most likely with family), so its easier to keep a fantasy of quality time, reality never measures up.

BPD has a thing for impulsiveness and "present makes the past different", so if quality time is not what he thought it would be, then he might think it was actually " that other thing we didn't do", and then since that other thing is quality time Now, then it always was, never this (the pub for example), until the usual became "that other thing" (the "change of scenery" incident) so any previous good interactions might become "not quality time" all of a sudden.

So, its interesting in that it hints to something going on under the surface, I'd be curious to find out what that is.

Knowing helps us expect and plan for things. would you play roulette if you knew the bearing is slightly off and the ball tends to end up on one side more often that the other? If long term, despite wins and losses, the wins were stacked in my favor if I keep betting on that side I think I would play, maybe start betting low, but since I know I have an edge I can get comfortable after a loss knowing I'll most likely win it back after a few spins.

Ok enough gambling reference, hopefully you get my point, its a bumpy road sure, but that doesn't mean it has to be like the morning commute instead of a fun and exciting rollercoaster.

how i was trying to pretend to make time for him

Trust issues, manipulative family, a fantasy of what a relationship really is (six years and you haven't "moved forward", what does that even mean?), mix and match maybe. I have a hard time trusting people, but it helped me to just take note and be ready for it to be broken.

He seems to not want to even risk it, too dangerous, its a vulnerable state, and I would imagine that vulnerability is what needs to be validated and comforted, not his outwards expressions of "go away, you don't love me"

but surely we should be making a teeny bit of effort.

Relationships take work, but love is not a chore you do to keep the relationship going. Do it because you love him, expect nothing back. If he reciprocates, then perfect. If not, ask yourself: do I still love him? I'm sure you'll know the answer before you finish asking.

I'm no relationship expert, I just had a recent experience of trying to "do my duty" for a relationship and it was awful, I felt alone in a void even while I was with her, so imagine a person with BPD feels something like that x1000, not a good place to be.

looks like we have been upgraded to cackling hens rather than cackling c&£@s

.
wut 

[SunandMoon]

Happy Birthday Supertrouper - I hope you have a great time tonight! 

[Supertrouper]

Thank you SaM, it was a great night.

ItsmeSnap, i have read your response quickly, i will need to reread it, especially about quality time.

My friends who he is obviously not very keen on me going out with were referred by him as cackling c£&@ts. Tonight he just called them cackling hens, so to me that is less offensive language, so i think an upgrade from the offensive one.

[Harri]

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