Help with some of the terminology please...

[Depression = 72% of members]

 

I am trying to get a better understanding of the terminology frequently used here via the Knowledge Base.
I am not sure I interpret these things correctly, and I fear I might simply be over-thinking a difficult mother-daughter relationship and a lack of emotional intelligence on my part and turning it into a mother with BPD traits just to blame-shift and to hide my own insensitivity and self-centeredness.

I do know however that I have been immeasurably grateful for the support these boards offer. The wealth of information has enabled me to become a better version of myself, and to share this more complete self with the people most close to me.

So…just for my correct understanding, could the following terms be discussed? Here goes….

RAGE – I frequently read that these can be physically threatening or at least intimidating. I use the term rage however for a purely verbal attack. No uncontrolled yelling or thrashing things, but lashing out verbally with the clear intention to push away or hurt, and placing all blame for everything and nothing into the lap of the person being raged upon.
When I finally get a chance to reply (JADEing, I know now I shouldn’t), my mother will actually sit in her sofa, tearfully, doing puff breathing as if she is in labour and placing a hand over her heart as if she is about to get a heart attack… 

SILENT TREATMENT – going no contact as a punishment, trying to draw out more attention or a ‘mea culpa’ from the other party. My mothers’ rages are usually preceded by silent treatment. I always was the one to go back, tail between the legs, ready to let her blast me about all wrongs past present and future. I haven’t had to deal with silent treatment or rage since I came to these boards and since I have gone low contact and ‘grey rock’ with her. Fingers crossed it will last...

HIGH FUCNTIONING – To my understanding this means that someone manages to function ‘normally’ or ‘balanced’ for longer periods of time, before dysregulating, and that possible targets for dysregulation are limited to certain persons, enabling the pwBPD to keep up a normal appearance for the outside world?

DYSREGULATING – is that a rage outburst, depression, silent treatment, …. Anything to replace self-soothing and get back into emotional equilibrium?

I am sure there are more words I would appreciate confirmation on, but let’s start with these and see how far we get….

Thank you for reading.



Libra.

[Libra]

 

I am trying to get a better understanding of the terminology frequently used here via the Knowledge Base.
I am not sure I interpret these things correctly, and I fear I might simply be over-thinking a difficult mother-daughter relationship and a lack of emotional intelligence on my part and turning it into a mother with BPD traits just to blame-shift and to hide my own insensitivity and self-centeredness.

I do know however that I have been immeasurably grateful for the support these boards offer. The wealth of information has enabled me to become a better version of myself, and to share this more complete self with the people most close to me.

So…just for my correct understanding, could the following terms be discussed? Here goes….

RAGE – I frequently read that these can be physically threatening or at least intimidating. I use the term rage however for a purely verbal attack. No uncontrolled yelling or thrashing things, but lashing out verbally with the clear intention to push away or hurt, and placing all blame for everything and nothing into the lap of the person being raged upon.
When I finally get a chance to reply (JADEing, I know now I shouldn’t), my mother will actually sit in her sofa, tearfully, doing puff breathing as if she is in labour and placing a hand over her heart as if she is about to get a heart attack… 

SILENT TREATMENT – going no contact as a punishment, trying to draw out more attention or a ‘mea culpa’ from the other party. My mothers’ rages are usually preceded by silent treatment. I always was the one to go back, tail between the legs, ready to let her blast me about all wrongs past present and future. I haven’t had to deal with silent treatment or rage since I came to these boards and since I have gone low contact and ‘grey rock’ with her. Fingers crossed it will last...

HIGH FUCNTIONING – To my understanding this means that someone manages to function ‘normally’ or ‘balanced’ for longer periods of time, before dysregulating, and that possible targets for dysregulation are limited to certain persons, enabling the pwBPD to keep up a normal appearance for the outside world?

DYSREGULATING – is that a rage outburst, depression, silent treatment, …. Anything to replace self-soothing and get back into emotional equilibrium?

I am sure there are more words I would appreciate confirmation on, but let’s start with these and see how far we get….

Thank you for reading.



Libra.

[Harri]

Hi Libra! 

High vs. low functioning and what makes a BPD diagnosis is sometimes murky.  They are pop-psychology terms with no set clinical definition (see below for more).  Part of the problem with trying to label the behaviors of our individual pwBPD is that that with 9 characteristics of BPD and only 5 of them needed to make a diagnosis is that leaves us with something like 256 possible combinations of behaviors.  ACK!   Skip, often reminds us here that most of the people talked about on this site do not meet the criteria (5 of 9) for the diagnosis of BPD but are more BPD-ish in that they have very difficult behaviors with which we are trying to cope with. 
So, someone with 4 of the 9 behaviors may be as difficult to deal with as someone with 6 or 7 for example.
Read this:  https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=332327.msg13023938#msg13023938
Excerpt:
Flourdust:  Just as generic advice -- there's a clinical definition of BPD and its criteria from the DSM (the diagnostic manual used by psychiatrists), but informal categories like "high-functioning" aren't based on clinical expertise. A bunch of these taxonomies have sprung up in casual and self-help communities - they often get used here and on other BPD sites but don't appear in the clinical literature (see also Witch, Hermit, Waif, etc.)
Skip:  What does high functioning mean? This is not so clear as it is more of a self-help book term, not a clinical term as flourdust points out. Generally what it means is a someone who has traits or BPD but at a severity level that would likely not be diagnosed.  There are other definitions that suggest hfBPD is about the clusters of 5 of 9 criteria that do not include "suicidal or self-mutilating behavior". There are other definitions that suggest that hfBPD is about people with BPD that can "keep it together" in public and work situation and are only problematic in the home or primary relationships.

The way you define raging is one side of it and can indeed be a part of BPD.  Not all pwBPD rage outwardly, and some not even at all.  Rather some direct their anger inwards.  We have what's sometimes called an inward acting pwBPD or a quiet BPD (again, not clinical terms) where the behaviors are directed inward.  One example I always think of is with anger... how many people deal with anger in a dysfunctional way but are not yelling and taking things out on others?  I'd say lot's of them, some of us here do it.  Not that we would be diagnosed BPD, but we definitely do not deal well with anger.  For example, running from it and shutting down is not dealing well with it just as much as raging uncontrollably is not dealing in healthy ways. 

BTW, the way you describe your mom when you are trying to speak with her makes me want to lose my temper!  I have no patience for that!  Gimme a yeller any day!  She sounds like a waif, have you heard that term before?  Another non-clinical term but one we use often here.

I think your definition of Silent treatment is right on the money.  It is a way to punish someone and use FOG and is experienced as emotional manipulation by those on the receiving end of things.   To expand the discussion a bit, Silent Treatment differs from no contact which is a tool that allows a person time to settle down emotionally, self soothe and as a way to protect their self.  No contact is therapeutic.  Silent treatment is more of a punishment.

DYSREGULATING – is that a rage outburst, depression, silent treatment, …. Anything to replace self-soothing and get back into emotional equilibrium?

I am not sure about depression here.
 It seems different to me but I am not sure about that.  Lets see what others say. 
I would also say that what your mom does when you try to talk with her is also a dysregulation.   I think of dysregulation as any dysfunctional behavior aimed at avoiding reality and or being emotionally challenged. 

So I probably talked more than you wanted but I was on a roll!

[I Am Redeemed]

I define dysregulation as expressing emotions in an out of control way.

[sklamath]

Hi, Libra! Wow, what you’ve written sounds a lot like my own mom. She’ll pick a fight, give the silent treatment, then rage, then the sit down and clutch her chest or her head. But if the phone were to ring in the middle of all that, she would answer and sound totally sweet and normal.

I think of the dysregulating less as the behavior itself, but of the thought processes and dysfunctional reasoning behind the behavior. For example, if I said that I don’t like broccoli, but she likes broccoli, she processes that as me not liking her, which in turn triggers shame and all kinds of other dysfunctional thoughts and, in turn, accusations, eg, I hate her, I am ungrateful, etc., and all she can think about are other times she felt that way.

[Libra]

Hi Harri!

Thank you for digging up that info. I think I get the gist of the high vs low functioning.

It is incredible how many characteristics there are!
You are right of course, it is not the label that matters, but the behaviors and their consequences for others. We are here trying to learn how to manage difficult relationships and preventing negative effects on our self. I worry about misinterpretation: talking about the same thing, but understanding them differently. I guess it’s a language thing 

BTW, the way you describe your mom when you are trying to speak with her makes me want to lose my temper!  I have no patience for that!  Gimme a yeller any day!  She sounds like a waif, have you heard that term before?  Another non-clinical term but one we use often here.

Funny, the last raging  session she actually got even madder for the way I calmly hung my coat over a chair and sat down. My pulse was racing, and I was shaking like a leaf from head to toe, but I was trying to stay calm at least outwardly. That just made it so much worse. 

Yes, I am familiar with the term ‘waif’. My mother is definitely a waif and can turn into a witch at times of great distress (dysregulation?). For those interested, here is some more info on these terms: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=61982.0.

I have seen little signs of waif-like behavior popping up again these past weeks. My mother has been coping very well since our last major crisis, more than 12 months ago now. It has made me doubt my own experiences: was it really that bad? Did I not simply overreact? It is a cycle I am used to following as well, but this time I am aware of it. I think I should give myself some more credit that the LC, grey rock, boundary setting etc. are actually working. But deep down, I still revert to the old doubts and self-criticism. 

It's true that for many of us NC or LC is very hard to implement. It causes great clouds of FOG, and it feels as if we are punishing the other like we often were punished via silent treatment. But, as you say, NC or LC is all about taking care of ourselves and has nothing to do with trying to make the other feel bad.

I think of dysregulation as any dysfunctional behavior aimed at avoiding reality and or being emotionally challenged.

That sounds right. I find it is difficult to pinpoint or give clear examples. How do we now ‘in the moment’ that something is dysregulation? In my mothers’ case, if she isn’t raging, it is all so subtle. Or maybe it is just because I grew up with it that it seems subtle 

Keep rolling Harri, I love it when you expand and discuss. It gets my neurons working 

 

Libra.

[Libra]

Hi I Am Redeemed! 

In your definition everyone is likely to dysregulate now and then, is that correct? I can get on my high hose when I feel misinterpreted by DH, for example, and that would also be a form of dysregulation?
Then the next question would be: what amount or severity of dysregulation is ‘over the top’, where does understandable, temporary dysregulation turn into a serious dysfunction we need to protect ourselves from?

Thanks for joining in!



Libra.

[Libra]

Sklamath,

I am sorry your mother can act in the same way. It is not easy to remain calm and keep your inner balance when that happens.
My mother would not be able to switch to super sweet on the phone though. I think. I’ve never really witnessed that.

I love your broccoli analogy! That is exactly how I think it works as well. The worst thing you can do to my mother is make her feel rejected/abandoned in any way (due to her own childhood trauma). I think her coping mechanism to avoid being triggered by almost everything you might say is simply not hearing what you are saying. She picks out the things she ‘wants’ to hear, and the rest just passes by. This makes it impossible to have an actual conversation with her. You never know what version of a conversation she will actually create for herself. It can be so bad I actually start to doubt my own words sometimes. 

Ha! Maybe that explains my fear of misinterpretation and the reason for this thread!

Thank you Sklamath!



Libra.

[I Am Redeemed]

Libra,

Yes, we all can become dysregulated at times. I know that emotional regulation can be hard for people with PTSD and CPTSD too.

Maybe it's not just the expression of the emotions being out of control, either. Maybe it's more accurate to say dysregulation happens when emotions control someone's behavior or moods, and the person has a very hard time self soothing or not acting on impulse due to the emotion "running the show".

I don't necessarily think my father had BPD, but he did have a high conflict personality with an explosive temper, and I think he had high anxiety that triggered it. He would yell at me or my mom suddenly, without warning, instead of stepping back to calm down before he spoke. His emotions controlled his behavior.

[Harri]

It is a cycle I am used to following as well, but this time I am aware of it. I think I should give myself some more credit that the LC, grey rock, boundary setting etc. are actually working. But deep down, I still revert to the old doubts and self-criticism.

Yep!   

The more you change your role in the dynamic, the more push back you will get and the more your brain is going to try to get you go back to your old ways.  Habits and long term patterns of thinking are hard to change.  You know that though... just a reminder 

How do we now ‘in the moment’ that something is dysregulation? In my mothers’ case, if she isn’t raging, it is all so subtle. Or maybe it is just because I grew up with it that it seems subtle

It is possibly both subtle and what you are used to.  The more inward acting and 'waif-like' the behaviors are, the harder it is to see.  IMO the waif behaviors are more emotionally manipulative and in a sense more difficult to deal with.  Like I said, give me a rager any day.  I think knowing in the moment is going to depend on learning about the disorder and just practicing your own emotional regulation so that you can think better and see patterns more clearly. 

Last time you said you were shaking a lot.  Managing that sort of physical reaction and how your mind processes it (saying this will pass, I can deal with it, it is a normal response here, etc) will help you focus more on the message behind your moms words and allow you to better assess.  Then you can bring out more tools.

Then the next question would be: what amount or severity of dysregulation is ‘over the top’, where does understandable, temporary dysregulation turn into a serious dysfunction we need to protect ourselves from?

If someone is being emotionally, verbally, physically abusive, does it matter if it is an isolated incident?
There is a range of behaviors that are self-protective and healthy responses.

I am redeemed said:

Maybe it's not just the expression of the emotions being out of control, either. Maybe it's more accurate to say dysregulation happens when emotions control someone's behavior or moods, and the person has a very hard time self soothing or not acting on impulse due to the emotion "running the show".

I agree with this!  Well said! 

[Libra]

Last time you said you were shaking a lot.  Managing that sort of physical reaction and how your mind processes it (saying this will pass, I can deal with it, it is a normal response here, etc) will help you focus more on the message behind your moms words and allow you to better assess.  Then you can bring out more tools.

I agree that managing physical reaction would help focussing on communication. I do not think I will allow matters to go that far anymore though. My mother had put me on Silent Treatment. I ended up going to visit her to try to make ammends. She knew I would come in the end. I was already shaking before I went in. I would not go seeking ammends for Silent Treatment anymore. Nor would I let her yell at me and push blame on me simply to let off steam. I would walk away (probably still shaken, but not stirred 

If someone is being emotionally, verbally, physically abusive, does it matter if it is an isolated incident?

Well, I’m thinking of my own behaviors here for a minute. For instance: I have severe PMS, which means that – periodically - my hormones have a high influence on my moods and emotions. Over the past year I have become much more aware of this, but I still cannot control it completely: I will lose my patience sometimes, I am more reactive. In I Am Redeemed ‘s interpretation, I see that as a form of dysregulation that I am trying to get control over. But I really hope it does not classify as emotional of verbal abuse (slight panic here!).

There are times people will react instead of act. That is - I think - only human? When someone reacts or acts out, is that dysregulation? Does dysregulation always equal abusiveness? Does the manner in which a person owns his or her actions afterwards also matter?



Libra.

[Harri]

heh.  I have been thinking about this too:  is it really a dysregulation when I get grumpy?  If I am upset does it mean I am triggered?  There has to be room for just normal human behavior right? 

I would say yes, we are human and we will get upset and aggravated and be short tempered sometimes and that does not necessarily mean we are abusive or dysregulated.  I think abuse is more about patterns of behavior over time.  I think we can overuse or over apply terms like triggered and dysregulated.

I would walk away (probably still shaken, but not stirred   )

    with or without an olive?  haha

What do others think?  Lets talk about this