Need help with Natural Consequences and Boundaries

[PeaceMom]

I am enjoying reading thru these posts, but need to understand Boundaries and Natural Consequences. Our 19y.o. UBPD daughter is always crossing boundaries here at home, breaking laws and causing havoc. We allow her to live here and she works part time and pays her car payment, cell phone bills and all expenses BUT she disobeys most of our house rules -stays out all night, doesn’t clean her room, screams and cusses at us.
Then her behavior out in the world is terrible-hooking up with people on social media, stalking exBFs, harassing people who want nothing to do with her anymore on social media, possibly using drugs at parties, speeding in her car...getting police involved on a weekly basis.  The only consequences we have in our toolbox are kicking her out or calling police as we do not pay for anything. We feel she will implode if we kick her out. Ultimately, she will probably have criminal charges filed against her bc of her harassing, unrelenting behavior when she perceives abandonment.  Would very much appreciate insight here as we feel we have zero options to enforce consequences.

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[Tazzer4000]

Hi! I'm sorry you are going through this. My daughter is a bit younger but I've been there myself. You are right about what your options are and while it sucks, we all need to set boundaries that we will stick to. Being inconsistent is one of the worst things you can do with BPD individuals. I cant tell you what to do but because shes an adult, I think I would give her notice that she has 30 days to find a new place to live if she is not going to follow your rules. I personally would not want to call the police now that she is an adult so evicting her seems the only option. Now if you wanted to help her pay for a place that is also an option but she has to understand there are consequences to her actions. Just my opinion, and I realize it's easier said than done but I don't see any other options either. No matter what you decide, we have your back and will support your decision.

[Lollypop]

Hi peacemom

I hope you don’t mind me saying “Goodness, your daughter keeps herself busy.” She’s out and about doing her thing - and yes she’ll most probably come a cropper. She’s got two parts to her life : family and friends. It sounds as if she’s got problems with relationships in both.

We can set limits in our homes. These are flexible and make life together more pleasant. The smaller stuff. For us, it’s no smoking in the house. I also insisted on no drugs and this got problematic later on which is another story).

Boundaries are 6 feet thick concrete and always come with a consequence. They are based on your own ethics and morals. Stuff like “you do not hit me”. I was so scared of boundaries and preferred to stick to limits. Having said that my son is a quiet BPD, doesn’t rage and is respectful so that makes it a lot easier.

How are you reacting to her behaviours?

I ask this because I wonder how much you know about BPD?

I used to parent too hard or too soft. I had to find a middle ground. My son couldn’t hear me and of course I enabled and fixed his problems for him. There was mutual lack of respect and liking. There was love though in that chaos. It was also embarrassing to have an uncontrolled member of my family. I tried everything and then found this forum. If something’s not working then a change of approach is needed.

It could be you introduce more boundaries or set more limits as your own change in approach. For me, I decided to get strategic and set myself three priorities. They helped me not sweat the small stuff. This changed our lives.

If my son didn’t keep his room tidy I’d say nothing. That wasn’t my priority. The consequence was that he had to live in it. I could ignore it because I was working on much more important goals. Room tidying was nothing compared to the other problems. I totally understand you may disagree - some of us run a tighter ship than I do.

I became the parent he needed not the one I thought I should be.

It’s great your daughter is holding down a job and paying her bills. This is to be congratulated. She has a skill set that will help her when she lives independently. It sounds to me as if she’s resisting taking responsibility for her life. My son achieved a state of what I call toddlerdom until he was 24 when he got dx and I got wiser. How can you make her take responsibility for her life? How can you get her to collaborate with you to live together more happily?

The answer is here. Better interaction skills so you can set your boundaries and limits (that are flexible because, you know, we all have bad days). You can improve your relationship with your daughter so she can hear you. She can’t right now because her mind is elsewhere. I focussed on my core relationship as my top priority - I figured if we had a healthier relationship he’d be more likely to respond better plus he needed that stability in his life.

What support do you have, do you have a partner? How are they coping and are you in the same songsheet?

LP

[FaithHopeLove]

Hi Peace Mom
I sense your frustration and pain over your daughter's behavior. May I ask what it is you really want? Is it better for you if she keeps living with you or would it be better if she moved out? We are here for you whatever you decide.

[PeaceMom]

I appreciate the feedback. She just discharged from the psych ward today and we are back home. Last week she was dumped by BF told the cops she was considering suicide so they wisked her off.   She is capable in many ways and that is a blessing. The scariest part of her life is having very little ability to determine who is safe and worthy of her time and who is pure danger. She met a girl on Bumble BFF and became instant besties-within 10 days the girl had slept with My daughter’s BF, stolen items, and threatened to kill my daughter. Turns out the girl has a criminal history and MH history. I was suspect when I met her and she told me she was Validictorian of her HS class and was in college premed...
I think what I really want is for her to stay away from dangerous
Criminals, not bring them around our home, and stay away from criminal behavior of her own, and obey our curfew rules.
Both my husband and myself are suffering from seconadaru PTSD from the weekly abuse and drama!

[FaithHopeLove]

I am glad your daughter is out of the hospital now. I totally hear what you are saying about wanting her to be safe. My son doesn't always make the greatest choices when it comes to the company he keeps either. Relationships are hard for people with BPD. No doubt you are your husband suffer from PTSD. I bet a lot of people here could say the same. This is so not easy. The good news is things can get better and you are in the right place to help make that happen. What does your daughter say about people who use her? Does she have any insight about what is happening?

[PeaceMom]

Our evening turned into a 3 hour heated discussion where she shared why she “went crazy” after being dumped last week. She will have criminal trespass charges filed against her. She also told us about 5 things that she has gone they over the last 5 years while living in our home that are horrowing-including hard core drug use, being victimized and abused in the worst ways imaginable, 3 pregnancies and miscarriages( ?), daily suicidal ideation, and a few more unthinkable things. This from a beautiful, smart, intuitive 19 y.o. Who graduated HS early, had dreams of becoming a Vet, was a HS Cheerleader, gymnast, equestrian. Who spend 5 yrs of HS in a volunteer organization where we served others every week for hours. The conversation last night was like being strapped into a chair with my eyes pried open being made to watch a train wreck up close. She was inconsolable that we would not give her her phone which is the source of every single horrible thing and idea that she has ever experienced. She says she pays for the phone so we can’t keep it from her. She did say she’s cut out some of the horrible people in her life and she needs to learn more about boundaries. We are absolutely spent and feel very little hope as her feeling are all on the spectrum of normal, but her reaction to those feelings are not on any human spectrum.

[FaithHopeLove]

Thank you. That gives me a clearer picture. Of course you feel horrible
 about what has happened to your daughter. We all feel the same way about our BPD children. The good news is there is help available, starting with the big step you just took by joining us. Many people here, myself included, have managed to improve our relationships with our BPD children by learning and using the tools that are described in this site. Have you had a chance to look around? Here is a good place to start. How To Get the Most Out of This Site

[PeaceMom]

I appreciate you joining me here this morning and your availability. I’m well versed in DBT and how to validate the feelings while invalidating the illegal, illogical, abusive behavior. I truly believe this problem is bigger than all of us. I’m a deeply faithful person, but cannot see why living here in our safe, lovely home is anything but a bandaid in her life. We are in the North Texas area and I cannot get the support we need. Every counselor claims to know about BPD in their “Psychology Today” profile, but when I share our story, I’m told I should “write a book” and “DO Less”. All for $120/hr. The center cannot hold. I’m aware of all the DBT skills and manage my own emotions quite well-it’s kind of amazing, actually. My husband is fearful and believes something horrible may happen to us. Do you all report your adult children’s possible criminal behavior or do you ignore it? threats? Harassment? Possible criminal-type behavior over the phone regarding drug purchases? I’m just baffled. We are trying to get her to a Residential Facility in Atlanta but I believe this too will be another bandaid. She says if we force her to live elsewhere, she will kill herself. To which I respond that we have more control over our lives and circumstances than we think-we are not puppets. She has overcome a lot,but appears not to be able to function in this world.

[wendydarling]

Hi PeaceMom

It's no wonder you are absolutely spent and hearing the harrowing graphic details, ... it's a train wreck.

Bandaid? I can totally understand you looking into residential to build on her prior DBT and other treatments, in hope. Are you thinking she may choose that over leaving home?

My heart goes out to you.

Hugs

WDx

[Mirsa]

Hi PeaceMom,

I'm wondering if you feel like you have more ideas in your toolkit?  It sounds like an untenable situation and I can completely agree with the PTSD, which I feel I've been recovering from as well since my BPD DD 18 moved out six months ago.  She went of her own volition when I refused to permit behaviors with her new 21yo BF in my home (she was 17 at the time).  Her father welcomed her into his home (and save a ton of child support $$ in the process) and I have to confess, I took full advantage of his naivete.   But, I can truly relate to feeling trapped by your own child, who is making your home a place of chaos.  I can't tell you how peaceful and tranquil my home has become in her absence.  It's amazing and oh! so welcomed!

So, as for ideas for you:  BPDs don't give two hoots about boundaries.  Boundaries are for others.  I realized that I had to figure out what I was willing to put up with and then come up with possible responses when she acted in ways that violated my limits.  It wasn't easy at all.  When she brought alcohol into the home, I dumped it all, figured out where she purchased it from, went there, yelled at them and threatened to call the cops on them if they sold to her and her underaged friends again.  That resolved that issue, and boy she was furious.  But, my home became alcohol free.

When she broke curfew, I started to go out to the car of whoever she was leaving with, and have a conversation with HIM about when she should be home, took a photo of the license plate, and made sure the driver understood that I would be calling the police if she wasn't home by the curfew.  Again, she was furious, but she began to learn that I meant business.

When she wanted to entertain new BF in her bedroom and I said no, she kept him on the couch, but wasn't appropriate.  I talked to the BF.  He became 'scared' of me, according to her...I call that respect for me and my home.

If she is bringing unknown people into your home, can you install cameras at the entrances, let her know that she is not allowed to bring in people you haven't met and approved first?  If she does so, then speak with those people directly and let them know your home is temporarily closed to outsiders.  She will be furious.  BFD.  It's your home. 

The cell phone:  is it entirely hers, or attached to your bill?  If it's attached to your bill, and she isn't following your requests, just call and turn it off.  She can go to Verizon and get a new number, and then her criminal behavior will be totally disconnected from you and any liability from that point forward.  (yes, I've done this too)

As far as the disgusting bedroom, I'd collect a security deposit from her.  I had to replace two carpets in my daughter's bedroom due to her filth and lack of respect.  Ask for $50/week until you have $500 and then tell her you will return it to her when she moves out, as long as the bedroom is in good repair.  Her room smelled, and I did require her to keep the bedroom door shut at all times after a while.   She didn't pick up after her cat, so I got a second cat box to keep in her room...and then she couldn't escape the smell and dealt with it more regularly at least.  Poor cat.  I did replace the carpet after she moved out and it looks great!  (I didn't have a security deposit though, as she was just 17; wish I did!)

As far as the out-of-the house misbehavior goes, she is 19, and I would probably let it go.  However, I would try to set a time frame for her to live on her own.  Is she in college?  Why only working part-time if she's not in college?  What is her plan to become an independent adult?  It sounds like it would be worth it to sit down with her and come up with a long-term plan to help her get her own studio apartment within the next year, even if subsidized by you.  I got lucky and my DD moved out, but that really was a stroke of luck.  My ex-husband has realized that she will probably be living with him beyond age 21 (he'll want to keep her until then for the child support).  Maybe I'll see him on these boards in a few years trying to figure out a way to get her to move on!  One thing is for certain:  she will not be living with me again. 

Good luck.  Hope this helps.  As you can see, I've lived it.  And it was absolutely exhausting.

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[Lollypop]

Hi

Why only working part-time if she's not in college?  What is her plan to become an independent adult?  It sounds like it would be worth it to sit down with her and come up with a long-term plan to help her get her own studio apartment within the next year, even if subsidized by you.

My son got dx at 24. Leading up to that I was stuck in a cycle - escalating chaos and then I would try the above approach. It never worked for us. What would happen in “the family” talk was he would nod, agree, say what we wanted to hear. We’d feel better for a little while, there’d be signs of slight improvement and then wham back to square one.

My son resisted growing up. He could not plan. He did not consider his future. He was having a good time and had no motivation to change his situation. He wanted us to put up and shut up. He did not have the skill set to do any of these things nor was able to successfully live independently and that’s why he spiralled down three times after he left home between the ages of 18-24. Because we had such a poor relationship he did not have the emotional support he desperately needed. We ended up subsidising him and all our savings went.

I found this forum and I armed myself up with tools and skills. I got strategic and clever. For many here it seems they can’t wait til they get to 18 and I totally understand the relief and weight that is lifted. I’ve been there too. Looking longer term, if your kid doesn’t have the skill set to live independently they go into some crisis. I became the parent he needed, not the one I thought I was supposed to be.

I preferred to support my son, while I worked on MY goals.
1. Improve core relationship. .
2. Get him financial management skills.
3. For him to live independently at some point.

I stopped giving him money. I stopped questioning him. I stopped issuing orders because he was an adult. To behave like an adult they need to be treated like one. But this needs to be done gently and at a slow pace. There are no quick fixes.

By focussing on the core relationship you give yourself and them a firmer footing. Using better interaction skills, clear boundaries and fair flexible limits (we all get bad days) we can make a healthier relationship. My son started to listen and understood it was ok to make mistakes because that’s how we all learn. I didn’t sweat about the small stuff - achieving number 1 priority made everything a lot lot easier. He trusts us now to not react.

This is my approach. It’s for you to make your own. I hope my story helps you see another view.

Like Mirsa, I focussed on my life. I found some balance and I’m still working on self care. I chose to try to find a way forwards with my son and, fortunately, it worked. We are happier despite the problems.

LP

[livednlearned]

My husband is fearful and believes something horrible may happen to us. Do you all report your adult children’s possible criminal behavior or do you ignore it? threats? Harassment? Possible criminal-type behavior over the phone regarding drug purchases?

Are his fears specific? I wonder if you can both shine some light on these fears and begin to develop a plan.

Sometimes the best way to get grounded is to gather information, like reaching out to a lawyer who specializes in criminal law. In what ways could your adult daughter's behavior harm you? What are things you can do that will proactively protect yourself? If you do abc, what follows? How do you prepare for def?

If an attorney recommends the best way to protect yourself is to have D19 removed, then look at options that provide you with the maximum amount of protection for your PTSD.

I realize SD22 cannot skip a step, she seems to have to take it in the chin multiple times before she learns from her mistakes and even then she may only learn a fraction of what is in front of her.

Saying no is like setting off a chain of events that will inevitably cause some other kind of strain in our family, so planning requires looking 10 steps ahead and being prepared for steps 9 and 10 while implementing 1 and 2.

Is the recent psyche stay her first? How did she respond to it?

[PeaceMom]

You guys ROCK! And you totally get it. This was her 4th psych ward in 4 yrs. The first was when she was bullied by other HS cheerleaders and did a suicidal outcry in HS and was handcuffed and put in back of cop car in her Cheerleading uniform while half the HS watched out the windows. She was taken to a horrific psych ward (picture One Flew Over) with vomit green walls, cots and bars. Welcome to the world of suicidal outcry’s, baby girl. She is emotionally raw all day everyday. She’s been fired from 7 jobs between age 16-18. So we allowed her to work PT. Seems she can handle baby steps but real life causes an implosion.
We’ve tried all the biggies as far as consequences. Such as selling her first car the second time she lied about whereabouts, dropping her from our phone contract (she has her own now), we don’t give her a penny.
I make sure to get her birth control shot as that’s not a gamble I’m willing to play with. We are installing security cameras next week and will let her know that we will call cops if anyone is in our home w/o permission. As to whether my husband’s fears are legit, I’m not sure. Most of her current friends are drug dealers and thugs so maybe! Unfortunately, the sheer abundance of energy in her makes this more nonstop 24/7 than if she was older. I mentioned in another post what my last therapy session w/new therapist ended with-“you need to write a book” and “may I suggest you DO less”-this from someone who claimed to be BPD trained.

[livednlearned]

We are installing security cameras next week and will let her know that we will call cops if anyone is in our home w/o permission.

What happens once the cops arrive? Are they able to remove someone at your request?

I'm wondering only because my experience is that some consequences can look like 10 foot concrete walls with large openings the size of doors for pwBPD to walk through. If you call and the cops do nothing, then it defangs the consequence.

It could be that the cops require you to be there in which case that might provide an easy fix to close the loophole.

I find it's helpful to take a scenario all the way to its natural conclusion only because SD22 works that way. She is like water that will find a way around an obstacle, or else build in size when she finds a limit in her way.

[PeaceMom]

Not sure what the police will do. Since she is a resident here, she is able to have visitors legally. Typically when police have been called, it bc she’s threatening suicide so they haul her off to psych wards. My guess is the security cameras will be just another thing we do to make us “feel” better, but actually offer no relief. I believe to have actual legal consequences we must go thru formal eviction proceedings and get an order, then if she came into our home, she’d be trespassing and cops would take her. She’s calmed down a bit after 10 days of insanity so this is where I relax a tiny bit and assume I can tolerate her living here. False sense of security, for sure!

[Only Human]

She’s calmed down a bit after 10 days of insanity so this is where I relax a tiny bit and assume I can tolerate her living here. False sense of security, for sure!

I know what you mean here, PeaceMom. I'd feel lulled into a sense of security, she's better, she's fine, it's all going to be ok. Then the proverbial "other shoe" would drop and I'd be devastated again, not sleeping, fretting, uneasy. Her life consumed mine completely.

For me, it was important to learn to be calm/relaxed, even in the eye of DD's latest storm. That's what she needs from me, to model. That took a lot of posting here, self-care, and letting go. I don't always get it right, and I usually screw it up when I'm tired, stressed, not feeling strong. I am a work in progress, as we all are.

~ OH

[livednlearned]

For me, it was important to learn to be calm/relaxed, even in the eye of DD's latest storm.

This. I find the gravitational pull is one of the hardest things to resist. To remain calm when a loved one is dysregulating can feel cruel if you don't keep a 30,000 foot view and an eye on the patterns.

SD22 once tried to open the door of my moving car as I was leaving the garage after I said I had to run errands on a deadline. What to do? I always seem to cave in when the emotional velocity is high and get swept up in things against my better judgment. SD22 does not shout or yell, it's more of an inward collapse over something that she could easily solve if she had the skills to get centered.

[PeaceMom]

Mine response to her shocking storms are that of a new born startled baby. I went in her room to hand her a snack she’d asked for and I opened the blind and she screamed “get the fu** out. I want to be depressed”
Ugh. I left and told her I was meeting friends for dinner.