Splitting those they love the most?

[VIDEO: "What is parental alienation?"]

I read or heard somewhere that pwBPD only really split or abandon those who they are closest to/love the most. How true is that?

[clvrnn]

I read or heard somewhere that pwBPD only really split or abandon those who they are closest to/love the most. How true is that?

[otherlife]

clvrnn, I heard that before but I am no expert.  As I understand the more they love the harder it is to keep the abandonment or engulfment feelings contained so they have to split to get respite from the impending or perceived event.  That's very sad because they sabotage the thing they want most - to be loved.

[clvrnn]

clvrnn, I heard that before but I am no expert.  As I understand the more they love the harder it is to keep the abandonment or engulfment feelings contained so they have to split to get respite from the impending or perceived event.  That's very sad because they sabotage the thing they want most - to be loved.

Hmm. Or as it says in the DSM-5, as soon as a relationship looks like it may work, they sabotage. The fact that they split those they love is the only real comfort I can take from this situation. She may have loved me at one point.

It is very sad though. The one thing they seem to desire, unconditional love? They push it away and get rid of it

[Mutt]

The fact that they split those they love is the only real comfort I can take from this situation.

Intimacy triggers the disorder , in turn that will trigger their fear of engulfment and a pwBPD will feel like their sense of self is being annihilated or consumed by that closeness and will push you away. That being said, I think that that's a tough one trying to find something out of the r/s that validates the fact that the other person in fact cared about you to some degree. We wouldn't trigger BPD traits if we weren't close with our ex pwBPD.

[CryWolf]

Mutt said it very well. Unfortunately, people who suffer with the disorder, have a tendency to self sabotage relationships with close ones. An example, mutual friends of me and my ex never saw the abusive side of her that I seen. Sadly, I triggered her bad traits to surface by the closeness of us.

[JNChell]

From my own experience, the more that I let on that I was getting to know who S4’s mom really was, the more hostile she got. I eventually went too far in telling her what I think/know. I’m split black. I wish that I hadn’t taken things that far because it’s made communication very difficult when it comes to our Son. I broke every rule that is taught here.

Back on track, maybe, in certain circumstances she felt attacked on two fronts. One being the enmeshment and abandonment. The other being found out. BPD/NPD.

pwBPD can’t get close. They can play the part for a while. As you’ve read here, some longer than others. There’s no time stamp.

Is there something deeper behind your question?

[Mutt]

Is there something deeper behind your question?

I think that OP is searching for clues if her expwBPD genuinely loved her.

Is that right clvrrn?

[clvrnn]

I think that OP is searching for clues if her expwBPD genuinely loved her.

Is that right clvrrn?

Yes, that’s right. Maybe that’s not healthy to be doing, but... I think this situation has really impacted me. More so than any other romantic situation I’ve been in. I think she is one of the very few people I genuinely loved, and I suppose it is irrelevant at this late stage to know whether she loved me - nothing has come of it, and she’s not doing anything about it.

From what I have learned about this personality disorder, it’s when things look like they could work out in a relationship, or when they really do feel genuinely for someone that things are cut off.

Hmm. Who knows, anymore.

[Mutt]

I think that a lot of members can relate with looking at the r/s through a genuine love lens. These r/s are so chaotic and end abruptly / traumatically it’s going to have an emotional effect on you.

I don’t think that the stage matters because stages are different for everyone. Maybe you feel like it’s non productive because you think that they might be ruminating thoughts which would more likely be in earlier stages of the break up.

Do you feel like you’re ruminating or looking for answers? I don’t get the impression that you’re ruminating it’s a valid question.

I think that looking at the center of the disorder is a good place to look - the fear of abandonment. It doesn’t make logical sense looking from the outside in but we’re talking about ingrained personality traits that are near automatic responses that are difficult for the person suffering the disorder to detect. They don’t know that they’re actions are driven by this fear.

I don’t want to generalize because some pwBPD have more self awareness than others. My point is I think that it’s important to separate yourself from the situation and don’t take the BPD behaviours personally.

[clvrnn]

I think that a lot of members can relate with looking at the r/s through a genuine love lens. These r/s are so chaotic and end abruptly / traumatically it’s going to have an emotional effect on you.

While I'm not grateful that this disorder causes this for so many of us, it's a relief that there are people out there who really get this and can empathise.

I don’t think that the stage matters because stages are different for everyone. Maybe you feel like it’s non productive because you think that they might be ruminating thoughts which would more likely be in earlier stages of the break up.

Do you feel like you’re ruminating or looking for answers? I don’t get the impression that you’re ruminating it’s a valid question.

I feel like the ruminating is dying down, but it's all still very present in my mind. I still am tied to the idea that she just felt too much for me, so had to escape it.

The week before she broke up with me she was being very nice, more so than ever. One day though, we had a conversation about attachment styles. She told me she was avoidant, I told her I was anxious. She said that if I didn't contact her she'd probably become overly clingy.

One day, I didn't initiate contact at all. Only late in the evening did she message me asking if I was ignoring her, was I OK, etc. She turned up at my place that same night, and was very very clingy and affectionate. I remember those few days I wasn't really initiating as much, and my mood was just a bit off (I don't know why) and I can only assume that it was during this three day period that she felt as if I was losing interest? Or that her feelings grew (the overly nice behaviour)? On the third day of those three days was the anger outburst and the break up.

This was similar to the first break up in which I hadn't been able to message her for three hours due to my battery dying. She became angry, accused me of all sorts of things. Went distant for a few days, then ended it.

These break ups always seem to come after I've spent a lot of time with her family, too. Feels like a mixture of abandonment and engulfment at the same time, it causes her to erupt.

I don't know. That's just my own perception.

I guess I am ruminating now, .

[gotbushels]

clvrnn   

I'd like to support your discussion.

I still am tied to the idea that she just felt too much for me, so had to escape it.

I'd like to share something that might help you move forward here.

A lot of our SO's really did love us. They loved us in their way, we loved them in ours. The thing that kept me tangled to this idea, I think, was the assumption that, "if someone loves me tremendously, I should try even harder". I think a more sober approach that still accounts for that terrific love they may have for us (a lot do), is to keep in view everything else.

• See that this person loves you terrifically.
• See that you may genuinely love them in return.
• See that she also has a serious mental disorder.
• See that what she is as a whole may be at odds with what you want from a relationship.
• See that just because things are going terrific on one day, it doesn't mean you turn the lights off and forget all about the 20–80% of "bad" days in the relationship.

I don't know. That's just my own perception.

If your processing or understanding what happened helps you move forward in your recovery then it's probably a good thing.

I'm not a practitioner. That said, the general thinking is that BPD symptoms show up more the closer the relationship. The experience of the symptoms is such that people whom aren't close may not experience/observe the pwBPD's symptoms altogether. Whereas the pwBPD can go home and immediately express symptoms to their intimate partner. Which is consistent with what Mutt said.

There are ideas as to why the BP's mind and body are built this way—but I think what's more helpful is to see that a BP's mind and body could be thought of as structurally different.

Mind being different may be that a BP's idea of what love 'should' be on an unconscious level, may be very different to yours and mine is. E.g., consciously they may perceive themselves doing all the "right" things, but unconsciously they triangulate third parties and are unable to resolve relationship-destructive behaviour on their own.

Body being different may be that they have a over-sensitised limbic system. E.g., years of invalidation may cause a strong bias and tendency toward fight and flight. These fight and flight responses may be habituated with family figures (closest relationships), and therefore you get those responses when the relationship closeness increases.

I think it takes some time to see how this fits into your relationship, but I think once you accept that people can be built with very different operating assumptions—things seem to click.

[1]
These break ups always seem to come after I've spent a lot of time with her family, too.
[...]

[2]
[...] three hours hadn't been able to message her for three hours due to my battery dying. She became angry, accused me of all sorts of things. Went distant for a few days, then ended it.

[3]
[...] I didn't initiate contact at all. [...] She turned up at my place that same night, and was very very clingy and affectionate.

[1] A non may perceive more time with family as strengthening of relationship commitment; thereby leading them to increase their investment in the relationship. Closeness probably doesn't mean termination to a non.

[2] A non may perceive that a battery dying is a perfectly normal thing and doesn't automatically signal that their partner is cheating on them. Distance probably doesn't mean termination to a non.

[3] A non may perceive that an absence of your initiation means you're probably busy. They then won't feel abandoned to the point where they feel they have to compensate and "win" you back. Distance probably doesn't mean termination to a non.


Enjoy your peace.   

[truthbeknown]

this exact same thing just happened to me last week.  My cell phone died and she thought that I blocked her.  Then she went off on me and I didn't handle it very well. 

I'll start my own thread about it but I wanted to say "wow" two different people doing the exact same thing to their partners. 

After she ended it she said, "please don't tell everyone that you went out with someone who had some kind of problem or was crazy.  That would break my heart."  I couldn't believe that this was more of a focus for her then the fact that she is breaking up with me and that could have been prevented.  I still told her "you are loved" .  She always like to hear that even after acting out.  As far as whether they love us.  I believe they think love is power and when they feel disempowered they think we don't love them anymore.  So therefore they get empowered by things like cutting themselves or metaphorically cutting themselves by cutting us out of their lives.  That is still power or control to them.  Reports of pwBPD that i have read say that cutting themselves makes them feel in control of something.  So breaking up must have made them feel in control?  I'm numb. sorry you are hurting too.

[clvrnn]

gotbushels

Your reply makes a lot of sense. The things you highlighted - the aspects of getting involved with her family, my phone dying, etc - are all things I had worked out to be the 'triggers' of her pulling the plug on the relationship, each time. I didn't really think too much about the battery dying/cheating correlation, if I'm honest - but it makes sense as to why she'd suddenly deemed me untrustworthy, a liar, etc. I had thought at the time that those were very extreme things to be saying, but I get it, now.

All of it makes sense, the push/pull, the triggers. The only part I don't understand is the cutting me out of her life, the non-responding to messages when, before, she'd actively just tell me to leave her alone, or threaten to block me, or actually block me (none of which are good!) - I've never had pure silence from her for so long. Especially not after she'd said we could 'start again' as friends. Guess that's the final part of the puzzle I won't understand.

[truthbeknown]

gotbushels

Your reply makes a lot of sense. The things you highlighted - the aspects of getting involved with her family, my phone dying, etc - are all things I had worked out to be the 'triggers' of her pulling the plug on the relationship, each time. I didn't really think too much about the battery dying/cheating correlation, if I'm honest - but it makes sense as to why she'd suddenly deemed me untrustworthy, a liar, etc. I had thought at the time that those were very extreme things to be saying, but I get it, now.

All of it makes sense, the push/pull, the triggers. The only part I don't understand is the cutting me out of her life, the non-responding to messages when, before, she'd actively just tell me to leave her alone, or threaten to block me, or actually block me (none of which are good!) - I've never had pure silence from her for so long. Especially not after she'd said we could 'start again' as friends. Guess that's the final part of the puzzle I won't understand.

Hypothesis:  maybe when they don't trust themselves they project that on to their partner but then when they make the decision to cut things off they might feel like they are standing up for themselves because typically they don't trust their decisions?  So now by cutting us out they somehow return to protecting their inner child but instead of seeing that they were hurting their inner child they are trying to be mature and finally take care of themselves because they are angry that they didn't take care of the inner child or themselves prior to this?   just a theory

[clvrnn]

Feeling a bit strange today and I think I'm getting closer to letting go. I feel as if it was a bit stupid of me to keep trying to examine why she didn't respond to me and started avoiding me like that, I guess it was simply because she didn't want to be friends anymore, and had changed her mind.

Hurts to feel as if I'm letting go, I thought it would feel 'good', but it just feels weird. I suppose I was holding on, waiting to see if she'd reach out. I can't see any reason for her to reconnect with me at university, either.

I'm still upset at the whole anger outburst/splitting thing - I know it's the disorder, and that's how it manifests, and there's nothing I could have done.I just wish she'd taken me aside calmly and said how she was feeling as opposed to exploding like that. I feel like I've lost a friend and well yes, a romantic partner, because of something that didn't have to happen. I can't really see myself dating anyone again, for some reason this has scarred me a bit. And I still have feelings for her so it wouldn't be fair to start trying to date - on me or the other person.

All this time I've thought about how she might miss me or regret what happened, etc. Perhaps she just isn't thinking about me whatsoever. Maybe that's the reality. I don't think she's with anyone else because she seems very scared of her symptoms and I seemed to be the first person she'd been with since her ex (four years ago), and I think it just scared the hell out of her to feel something again. But I don't know enough about BPD and whether people regret sabotaging relationships, or whatever. The thought of her missing me or regretting it has been keeping me going, but it probably isn't the case at all.

Don't really know what to do, now. Feels like a thing that didn't have to happen, and we finish uni soon. I loved being around her so much. Oh well.

[hotncold]

In my experience pwBPD lash out and split after things have been going relatively well, or a moment in the relationship where more closeness has been achieved. My ex lashed out at me after we became even closer. The closeness I felt with him from the very start of the relationship is unmatched in any other romantic relationship, with the exception of some very close friendships.

I do think they regret cutting us out. He always told me that it was bad for him to stay the night after being intimate with someone, that he would inevitably ruin things. He told me that he had a bad habit of telling people to just f--k off, but he didn't want to do that with me.  He did it anyways and I didn't take it well.

What was perplexing for me though was that somehow things did manage to stick with some of his replacements, so I was thoroughly confused, but now I wonder if there is a lack of intimacy in the relationships that do last. He and I were very physically affectionate with each other and he told me it was unusual for him, normally he did not accept affection from others. (for a long time I thought he was saying this just to make me feel special but with retrospect I suspect he was being truthful).
The replacement he's been with the longest (a few years now) he initially did not have respect for and when he started dating her was posting subtly degrading/mocking things with double meanings about her on social media. He's removed some of the worst ones. The comments from his friends were equally mocking/belittling. He also told me that she had no interest in knowing anything about his past, or even his "going ons" - as though it did not bother her that he might be unfaithful as long as she didn't know about it. I believe this was two years into their relationship. He also told me he felt his life was stagnating with her, but no matter he stuck with her and she with him. So, he gave me insight into his replacement relationship... and I realized its not at all the kind of relationship that I would ever want to maintain.

So maybe if they are in relationships where intimacy is lacking it can work. This is something that is foreign to me though, to be in a relationship with someone you initially don't respect, and who in turn refuses to want to get to know you. For me there is nothing worse than a relationship where you aren't being seen. But maybe this kind of relationship is the only kind that a BPD can maintain in the long term.  All I can say is that I am grateful I don't have this issue. What a complete waste of life. 

[clvrnn]

In my experience pwBPD lash out and split after things have been going relatively well, or a moment in the relationship where more closeness has been achieved. My ex lashed out at me after we became even closer. The closeness I felt with him from the very start of the relationship is unmatched in any other romantic relationship, with the exception of some very close friendships.

I do think they regret cutting us out. He always told me that it was bad for him to stay the night after being intimate with someone, that he would inevitably ruin things. He told me that he had a bad habit of telling people to just f--k off, but he didn't want to do that with me.  He did it anyways and I didn't take it well.

Seems to be my experience too; just after things had gone well. Same as well, with the closeness being unmatched.

If they regret it though, I've never understood why they make no apparent effort to apologise or 'come back'.

[hotncold]

Yeah there are a lot of things that don't make sense to us But from my experience with my ex and mom it is as though they are children and we the parents but not really (their actual physical survival does not depend on us as a true parent-child relationship) so we don't really have the power that it would appear we have. To come back and admit regret means that they need to have the maturity to accept resonsability, that much of their adult life and therefore their own suffering is partly a result of their actions. It means renouncing victimhood and entering adulthood. This requires tremendous amounts of work. If they haven't done the work they won't do it. It is a very painful process to have suffered for twenty thirty forty years and caused suffering and to suddenly realize you could have made different choices, lived a different life. For people who suffer from extreme self hatred that realization although a necessary growing pain I think is too difficult. Because then it requires self compassion and self acceptance. Another thing pwBPD are profoundly lacking.
I also think in general they do try to come back (never apologize though for reasons cited above). Mine did a few times but because they haven't done the work the same cycle will repeat and you'll always find yourself at square one. My policy was always that if he didn't get help I would never consider something serious with him. I stuck to it but it still broke my heart we couldn't be together.