This is not where I want to be in life nor where I have ever wanted to be.

[lonely38]

I have come to terms with the fact that my BPD husband will never change.  Thus I need to be the one to change and work on getting healthier.  I understand the concept of detaching with love, of finding joy in other places and people, of working on boundaries, etc.  My struggle is the stress level my body has been at for a very long time.  My therapist tells me I deal with ptsd from being in a very abusive relationship for 40 years.

I also think I am perhaps working through the phases of acceptance.  This is not where I want to be in life nor where I have ever wanted to be.  At this time, I just feel I have no other options.  It seems best to stay married.  I don't know if that is codependency or my christian faith or both.

I am open to any tips anyone else has for destressing.  I read scripture, meditate on scripture, exercise, finding other hobbies I enjoy, etc.  But the getting rid of the stress is tough for me.  I also am realizing that spending too much time with my BPD husband is exhausting for me and I need to be proactive at spending time with other people to give myself a break.

[formflier]

 I have come to terms with the fact that my BPD husband will never change.  

I'm going to challenge you on this.  Not that I want to be argumentative...but I hope that pushing you to view things a different way will give YOU hope!

Imagine for a minute two people are dancing.  They dance the same dance for many years.  One partner asks the other to dance a different style.  The other partner says no.

Sadly the first partner resigns herself to "my dance partner will never dance differently"  (and was very distressed.

Then...one day, she realizes that she can dance however she wants.  That's her choice...not his.

So..she dances the dance she wants.

Now...in the short term, you have to imagine those two look odd dancing.  Each doing their own thing

Over time the dance partner that wouldn't change starts to change the way he dances, because the old dance just doesn't work anymore.  

Now...follow this analogy.  Even though the reluctant to change dance partner said "I will never change"...they actually did, because the other partner changed.

What is the impact of this analogy on your relationship?  

FF

[lonely38]

I love this analogy.  Thank you!  I have slowly come to the conclusion that I have way overfocused on what is wrong instead of who I am and what do I want to do.  

[empath]

My struggle is the stress level my body has been at for a very long time.  My therapist tells me I deal with ptsd from being in a very abusive relationship for 40 years.

One of the things that I have added in the past 6 months or so is something called resonant breathing. It's a way of slow breathing that turns on our parasympathetic nervous system and counters the effects of stress; I first learned about it in The Body Keeps the Score. The great thing is that I can do it just about anywhere; I have an app on my phone that helps with it.

[formflier]

Let's drill down into this idea you had that your pwBPD "will never change".  

Can I start the discussion to describe parts of your relationship that you don't like and want to change (vice describing him...or you)

Perhaps the top 3 things.

Best,

FF

[lonely38]

I think I am understanding this.  Please correct me if am not.

The top three things that I do not like about the relationship.

Lack of safety and empathy.  When I say lack of safety, I mean lack of emotional safety.

What feels like projection being placed based on emotions and feelings.  Taking on that  projection and doing the walking on eggshells thing.

Constant anxiety and stress.  Being very trigger happy and dealing with ptsd

I think perhaps this all boils down to a very dysfunctional relationship where I have focused too much on other people and not enough on me.  I can never get in another's mind or truly understand where they are coming from.  In order to get healthier, it seems important to find me again, which, in turn, may be healthier for the relationship.

If I need to go back and try another stab at this, let me know!

[Cat Familiar]

I think perhaps this all boils down to a very dysfunctional relationship where I have focused too much on other people and not enough on me.  I can never get in another's mind or truly understand where they are coming from.  In order to get healthier, it seems important to find me again, which, in turn, may be healthier for the relationship.

Yes.  

So many of us, who by nature are caretakers or caregivers, find ourselves in relationships with people with personality disorders.

Learning to take care of ourselves is a tall order after years of not doing that, but the rewards are well worth it.

What is one thing you can do today to take care of yourself?

[formflier]

  In order to get healthier, it seems important to find me again, which, in turn, may be healthier for the relationship.
 

Will be healthier for the relationship.

That doesn't mean you will always get your way...but most of us have almost always "bent" or "capitulated" to a dysfunctional person.

Think of it this way.

Will a relationship be healthier if a healthy person is "reacting" to a dysfunctional person?

or

Will a relationship be healthier if a dysfunctional person is "reacting" to a healthy person doing healthy things?

Of the things you listed...which one would you like to focus on first...I think we can help with all, yet best to focus and understand one thing at a time.

Best,

FF

[lonely38]

The first thing I want to work on is constant anxiety and stress.  I think this means I need to quit thinking about everyone else so much and start thinking about me.  I am finding myself asking the question, what do I want?  This is a new idea to me, honestly.  I was raised on guilt. Married at a very young age and having a baby shortly after, my role was always about taking care of someone else.

My therapist told me yesterday that because I am getting stronger, it is very apparent our family has lived in a very rigid way of thinking.  So when I started getting stronger and speaking out, everyone else basically fell apart.  And now somehow I am the one to blame for this (in their eyes)

I want to understand better ways to love them all, even if from a distance, but to stand up for myself.  We had a family dinner this week and it was extremely hurtful with things said and things that happened during the dinner.

My children all seem to have 'ganged' up on me in the last 6 months.  This is just one year after they all told me how proud they were of me in how I have handled all the trauma in the family.  My best guess is they are bewildered at me starting to find myself and this leaves them feeling threatened.  I love all of our children completely and have given my all for them.  While I still love them all the same, I no longer am able to fill the role they want me to.

The therapist wants me to send a letter to them saying I am willing to discuss any hurts with them in private. But I am unable to have this publicly discussed as happened the other night.  My fear in this is that it will only give them more to discuss with each other.  They seem to be looking at me for the harm they feel I have caused.  The therapist told me that because secrets were kept, now the foundation of our family is crumbling. 

I kept things from our children over the years with regard to all the dysfunction of the marriage including decades of infidelity, porn, verbal and emotional abuse.  They were witness to some of it but really had no idea of the extent of it.

There was a straw that broke the camel's back this past fall for me when I ended up filing for divorce and completely went into panic mode with my life.  With therapy I am getting stronger.  My BPD husband and I are still together as I withdrew papers.  But my children are angry at me for doing this and for sharing a minimal amount of information with them.

So maybe today the thing I am doing for myself is not to allow myself to focus on what the family thinks so much but to focus on getting healthier.  I am getting with a friend today.  Exercising today.  And working today, which gives me a break from the crazy.

[formflier]

The first thing I want to work on is constant anxiety and stress.  

OK...let's talk about your support system.  Yes, we (and I assume your T as well) want to help you stand on your own 2 feet.  Sometimes it's counter-intuitive...but one of the best ways to be independent is to KNOW that you have a solid support system in place for if/when you fall/need it.

Solid support system=people that can respond to you in a healthy way. 

Will your children be part of that support system?  I don't see details about the family dinner, but it doesn't sound pleasant.   For now..I'm going to suggest NOT counting on family.


Let's imagine a three legged stool.  If all three legs are there...you can sit on it, since it's very sturdy.  What happens if you remove a leg?

I'm going to suggest

Leg 1 A good therapist.  (how long have you been in T?  Do you have a good relationship with T?)

Leg 2  Solid engagement with bpdfamily  (a group of people that "get it".  For instance..I've had many family dinners go south...very painful.)

Leg 3  Friends and a life of "normal".    Not that you never share with them, but the primary purpose is relationships "outside the crazy".  Perhaps you tell them some of your family relationships are "difficult" and leave it at that.  (Do you have people like this in your life?)

You mentioned getting with a friend today.  What are your plans?  Does this fit with Leg 3?

Hey...I'm so sorry there was a bad dinner.  Can you share more details?  My goal is to find places where "next time" you can redirect the conversation and/or leave it...vice endure it.

Enduring things is usually NOT a good idea. 

Best,

FF

[lonely38]

Super helpful, thank you.

Yes, I have a good support system of friends outside the crazy.  This friend has been there for me in some very difficult times and cares about me and believes in me.  Which is huge.  She knows my story and I have shared the same w a few other very close friends who are also big supporters of me and want to be there for me.

As for the family dinner, I am very close to the oldest grandson as I cared for him while our daughter worked from the time he was a new born until he was about 3. He is now 10 years old.  He asked me to look at his new hover board in the garage he had bought for himself with birthday money.  So I went out.  Our daughter came to the garage and told him to get him inside.  I did not think anything of it at the time.  Then he asked me to go and see his bedroom, which has been very common for the grands to ask over the years.  My youngest daughter and I went up with him and were looking at his room.  He said I have a box I want to show you.  It had past birthday cards, etc. he has saved from over the years as well as rocks, etc., that we have brought back to him when we traveled.  He wanted to read to me each of the cards out loud.  Our youngest daughter got bored and went downstairs.  I am pretty sure our oldest daughter had snuck upstairs to listen in.  As he was pulling out the last thing in the box, which was a photo book my sister had made for him, she barged into the room and yelled at him, 'what are you doing?  get downstairs.'.  So he slowly began to put the things back in the box.  Then she yelled again to get down stairs now.  I got up immediately and left the room while he finished putting his things away. 

It felt like she did not trust me.  This is after she has said she trusts no one with her kids but me?

During dinner, our oldest daughter and her husband brought up an incident from past years.  In a nutshell, my husband and I had moved back to my home state for one year with our youngest daughter.  Because we did not like living there, and because of trauma that happened there including an emotional affair between by husband and someone we had hired there, we made the decision to move back.  We left our youngest daughter with our oldest for 6 weeks to finish her semester.  This has been brought up over and over and they always talk about how our oldest had to take care of the youngest, etc., etc.  I said something along the lines that this was a mistake on my part.  My daughter's husband chimed in, 'one mistake of many'.  My daughter's husband has been a very kind person and needless to say, this was extremely hurtful to be said in a group setting.

One of the things I am doing today, as directed by my therapist, is to write our children a letter.  I am sharing that I understand this particular past hurt with them, and that I am open to discussing it with them one on one.  But that it will not work for me that this be brought out in a group setting.  The therapist says I need to let my children know I am open to hearing their thoughts and feelings but that I am not open to having it hashed out in public.

I feel that by doing this it allows me to stand up for myself without lashing out at children for what was an incredible hurtful evening, and, by the way, was supposed to be a birthday celebration for the May bdays in the family, one of which was mine.

Lauren Dagle has a song called 'rise up' and that speaks to me with regard to no longer living the same pattern that I have lived for decades and to give myself permission to be me.

[formflier]

So..why does your therapist want you to write a letter?  (I'm not saying it's good or bad...I am saying you need to understand how the T see's this playing out)

How exactly was one child traumatized or negatively impacted by being in the care of a sibling?  As I read that I figured they likely had fun together without parental supervision...a time of bonding and focusing on the unique relationships among siblings.

Perhaps there is something I'm missing here...so...please share exactly what they are upset about for the 6 week thing.

Do you really believe it was a mistake?  I'm not seeing the mistake yet, but we can have different points of view.  I'm wondering if your pattern is that you apologize for things when others are unhappy about  your decisions...when there is nothing to apologize for.  Or perhaps multiple apologies are offered when one is the appropriate amount to give.

In my life we have let older siblings be responsible for younger for extended periods of time.  My 21 year old (at the time) cared for my 12 year old for 4-6 weeks last spring.  They had a big adventure moving horses back from out west to the mid west where we live.  I still get new bits of information from them as I hear them talking about their time together.

OK...asking a kid to go back downstairs or come inside is odd behavior.  I would resist the urge to "personalize" it.  Perhaps there have been discipline issues you are not aware of. 

Even if your version is 100% true (and it may be)...I don't see that you had any part in the misbehavior and it seems like an invitation for a mess of circular arguments and accusations, which can be denied...and people can be offended.

Perhaps talk to you therapist and ask if she wants the letter written for therapeutic reasons, yet you won't ever send it...or if she really wants you to send it.

If she really wants you to send it, I would ask her for her thoughts on how a letter is better than a direct face to face conversation.

From what I know so far, I would recommend you be ready for "next time" and "call it on the spot", versus trying to endure it and then sort it out after the fact.

What might that look like?

Them:  "Blah blah blah...you left me with my sister...blah blah blah

you:  "Oh my...I remember talking about this before.  This seems important to you.  How can I help with this now?"

No apology...just open lines of communication and let them define their solution/need.

The goal is to avoid repeating circular arguments and rehashing history.

them "blah blah blah...you shouldn't have done that...blah blah blah"

you "I hear your point of view that I shouldn't have done that.  Am I right to understand you have the same opinion as the last time we discussed this?"

listen...  If there is "new information" then deal with that.  Eventually...if they just want to rehash the same thing...you decline and take a break from the conversation.

Best,


FF

[lonely38]

Thank you for saying you do not see the mistake.  I agree I do not feel I did anything wrong.  I just feel somehow our family has gotten to the point where we discuss things like this as a dig at another family member.  Our youngest daughter has told me that she feels we do this to each other and that we label each other.  I just did not find anything interesting or informative in that type of discussion.

The real issue is that my children are all seemingly on the warpath looking for the next wrong or perceived wrong on my part.

I am accurately telling what happened with regard to grandson and around the firepit.  I think somehow my oldest daughter is either still angry with me or wanting to punish me with her children and how I spend time with them.  She knows I have been a very good grandmother to them and that her children love me and feel safe with me.

The one thing about writing one letter to all of them is that it addresses all of them at the same time.  Maybe I take out the part for apologizing but say instead these types of discussions need to happen in private rather in public. 

With the children in the last few months, they have all been in touch and talking back and forth with one another about the stuff that has happened in our family. Especially with regard to myself, they seem bent on letting me know I messed everyone up.

I am tired of being their kicking post.  I have supported them, taken care of them and tried my best in spite of pure crazy from their BPD father.  I am guessing at some point, they will come to a better understanding of the the truth.  In the meantime, I am feeling the need to change me and how I relate to them and what I put up with.

[Cat Familiar]

When apologies are your customary method of reconciliation, others presuppose you are at fault and it lets them off the hook for examining their own behavior.

[formflier]

  I agree I do not feel I did anything wrong. 

Yet you apologized to them for the mistake and said it was a mistake. (do I have this right?)  So..if they were to take you at your word..they would believe that you believe it was a (fill in the blank)?

Can we stay there for a bit.  I'm not saying the other things you raised aren't important...but let's really focus on an issue at a time.

Do I have this right that you told them leaving the daughter was a mistake?  Can you think of other times you have "owned" a mistake in a similar manner?

Best,

FF

[lonely38]

I have apologized for things that I did but were not wrong  WAY TOO MUCH.  Thank you for the reminder.  This is probably a big part of the stress I carry, unfortunately. I can see that I have done this so that the family could be held together.  And look what I have instead, a big mess.

[formflier]

  I can see that I have done this so that the family could be held together.  And look what I have instead, a big mess.

How much is the right amount to apologize for things you haven't done?

FF

[lonely38]

  None!  I think I see where this going.  Thank you so much.

[GaGrl]

What might get established for a new way forward it you stated to your children a version of this awareness?

 "In the past, I made what I considered were the best decisions at the time, often in an attempt to keep this family together and functioning.  You children did not always have all the information that I had -- nor should you. There are aspects of our marriage that have been private and will continue to be private. While you may consider some of many of my decisions to be mistakes, I do not.  What I consider to be a mistake is over-apologizing in an effort to appease and keep the peace in the family, and it is my goal to stop playing this role."

 Is this close to your current position? (Just a quick draft here for clarification...)

[lonely38]

So you are suggesting this be a part of the letter I send to them with regard to the recent family dinner and how the conversation went south? 

I agree with what you are saying in that I need to let them know I've got what it takes to figure things out and I feel good about my decision making ability.  Is that the goal of stating this?

[formflier]

Couple things

1.  How many years have you been over apologizing? 

2.  I'm a fan of letter writing to clarify things for yourself.  Completely separate matter on if you actually send the letter.  I've written far more than I've sent.  Many conversations I've had went much better because I had a letter clearly written and worked out...so I was able to respond succintly to the issue at hand.

Last thought...to keep peculating.  Especially in dysfunctional situations, it matters much more wat you do  and generally matters much less what you actually say.


Best,

FF

[lonely38]

Good point, especially on it matters what more what I do than what I say.

And I have been in the marriage for 40 years, most of which has been extremely dysfunctional.  Thus the codependency part of my own which includes the over apologizing just to keep peace.

I think for my children I need to demonstrate to them with words and then follow up with actions with regard to the public display on their part for what they perceived as a wrong.  I just think at this point they need to see from me a sane person who is acting in a healthy way with healthy boundaries.  It seems by doing this I will have more respect for myself.  Hopefully, they will start to come to terms with the new mom and learn respect and appreciation for that as well.

Make sense?

[formflier]

  I just think at this point they need to see from me a sane person who is acting in a healthy way with healthy boundaries. 

That's a nice thought.  Is it realistic?

So..to be clear...you have been over apologizing for 30-40 years?  Do I have that right?

Is it safe to say that your kids have never known you another way? 

(If I don't have this correct...please clarify)

Best,

FF

[lonely38]

I do not think I have been overapologizing to them for this period of time, no.  Most of the time I have been a healthy person with good boundaries.  But with the mess of the marital strife in the last 6 months, I have found myself over apologizing.  I did this partly because I wanted them to know I never intended to hurt them.  I hurt them because in the divorce papers, I also thought the kids would be supportive of me.  I believe I even expected that from them.

I do not feel I owe them an apology for sharing the very general details of the marriage.  This has been freeing for me in many ways, mainly because I do not have to pretend that all is ok in marriage.  I can be peaceful in my marriage, as far as my part is concerned.  But that is all I have to do is my part.

So thank you for asking for clarification.  Does this help to better understand?

[GaGrl]

My thought also, like FF's, was that writing out your message -- whether you deliver the letter or not -- helps to clarify your values, boundaries and others things as well ( your ask of them, for example).

You might want to share your letter with your T  to get feedback.

[formflier]

I do not think I have been overapologizing to them for this period of time, no.

Perhaps I wasn't clear.  I'm asking if this was a pattern of yours to others generally. 

Most of the time I have been a healthy person with good boundaries.

Can you be more specific.  How much of the time?  What changed for the times when you were not healthy and did not have good boundaries?

But with the mess of the marital strife in the last 6 months, I have found myself over apologizing. 

So...important to be accurate here, what prompted you to start over apologizing 6 months ago.

I was under the impression that your marital strife was for longer than 6 months?
 
How much of your marriage was healthy, happy and you would love to relive that...versus how much of your marriage would you rather not relive?

I did this partly because I wanted them to know I never intended to hurt them.  I hurt them because in the divorce papers, I also thought the kids would be supportive of me.  I believe I even expected that from them.

How did you serving divorce papers on a cheating husband hurt your children?  (i simplified the story)

What do you mean by "being supportive"?  What behavior and words were you expecting?  Briefly compare that to what you actually got.

If you wanted them to understand you didn't want to hurt them...why not just tell them that?  How did you expect excess apologies to convey this message?

I do not feel I owe them an apology for sharing the very general details of the marriage.  This has been freeing for me in many ways, mainly because I do not have to pretend that all is ok in marriage.  I can be peaceful in my marriage, as far as my part is concerned.  But that is all I have to do is my part.

What do you expect your children to do with this information?  How did you expect this information to affect their relationship with their father?

So thank you for asking for clarification.  Does this help to better understand?

Yes..somewhat.  Lots to clarify. 

I'm particularly interested in how a healthy person with good boundaries starts over apologizing 6 months ago. 

Best,

FF

[lonely38]

So the marriage issues have been there for pretty much the entire marriage.  There was always something off.  My husband seized on certain words and terms and labeled me as in 'hostile, controlling, contentious, selfish, self centered, angry'.  He was extremely distant, and then would be very nice. It seemed he was pretty much always upset with me for something.  He was secretive and inappropriate with women even when I was around. From 5 years into the marriage, there was infidelity.  8 years ago my husband confessed to some horrible infidelity, which I have stated on other threads.  He confessed to our kids, in less detail, and tried to make things right.  After a very difficult time in marriage in 2018, I did file for divorce.  This was due to the verbal and emotional abuse as well as him doing some things that majorly triggered me like trying to reach an old girlfriend, refusing to put a porn filter on his computer, going to a sketchy massage place for an ankle massage. I shared with my children that I had been through decades of infidelity. (They were already aware of infidelity both through witnessing it and also through their dad's confessions) and I also shared with them I have been verbally and emotionally abused (My youngest daughter had already told me that I allowed her dad to talk down to me).  I also shared the 3 things that happened in the course of the last year.  This I did to explain my situation and decision to divorce. 

In retrospect, I believe I thought by sharing the 3 things, that the kids would support me, etc.  Instead it had the opposite effect.  Although they knew something was very wrong with me (they all shared concern that I was not right as my actions and words were not normal), they chose to detach completely and told me they did not want to hear more detail. I was in a pure panic and almost lost my mind.  I reached a breaking point where I could no longer tolerate the abuse from my husband, etc.

My husband and I are back together, which I believe speaks to my codependency but also my husband has tried to get healthier, although it has been very back and forth. 

You asked if I find myself apologizing to others on a regular basis.  No, I do not see myself doing this.  I feel that in general I am a pretty healthy individual, having healthy boundaries with people I meet, friends, work associates, etc. I have been told I am a warm, friendly, honest, funny and fun person to be around by friends.

But with what I called the marital trauma of the last 6 months, which includes me filing for divorce then wanting our family back together, I believe I perhaps have over apologized.  Example: I wrote a written apology and got together with our children and in law children one on one.  My oldest daughter came over to talk and basically spewed the same stuff out to me again that I had already apologized for.

Maybe the real issue is that I have let my oldest daughter's strong personality run over me these last 6 months.  I realize she is struggling with her own stuff as she has lots of anxiety, (from other stuff, not just our family), she puts too much pressure on herself, she expects too much of others and more.  She is getting therapy, thank goodness.  But the example of her telling her son to get downstairs or back in the house was really her way of saying mom, get back downstairs or mom, get back inside.  Not sure if that was controlling, punishing, fear or what.

So back to what happened at the family dinner.  Because the children seemed to have formed their own club called what did mom do now, I feel it is important to address all of them at once.  Then give them the choice to come to me for the issue they were discussing as a group.

[formflier]

So marital trauma has only been for the last 6 months?  There was no trauma before? 

Do you believe you have/had healthy boundaries with your spouse?

Same question with your children?

How did you expect your revelations to your children to affect their relationship with their Father?

Best,

FF

[lonely38]

The marital problems have been always there.  The trauma I am speaking of is regard to filing for divorce and the sharing I did with children.  I have been told and I believe it is true that by trying to protect children, then sharing some very minor detail, then Humpty Dumpty fell down.  There was no way to sustain the dysfunction of the crazy family if suddenly one of us did not play the role.  I stood up for myself with my husband.

My children and my oldest daughter specifically has been hyper focused on what mom did wrong and not the big picture.  By the way, I just got off the phone with her and it did not go well.

I said thank you for hosting the dinner and that I appreciated it.  I said I have a question with regard to her oldest son.  I said I just did not understand her coming into the bedroom and the garage the way she did.  I asked if I overstepped a boundary by going up to his room. She got excessively defensive with me and more finger pointing on her part then started.

Why?  I am certain this conversation will not get passed on to the other two children.  This is all extremely sad and frustrating and frankly, I am fed up with my children at this point.  The same children whom I love and care for deeply have seemingly turned their back on me in many ways.

[formflier]

  There was no way to sustain the dysfunction of the crazy family if suddenly one of us did not play the role. 

What would have happened if you hadn't played the role?  What role did you play?

I stood up for myself with my husband.

What did that look like?  Was it effective? 

My children and my oldest daughter specifically has been hyper focused on what mom did wrong and not the big picture.

Which is what? 

How does what Mom did wrong relate to the big picture in their minds?

  I asked if I overstepped a boundary by going up to his room.

Did she answer the question? 

She got excessively defensive with me and more finger pointing on her part then started.

Can you share some examples of finger pointing?

  I am fed up with my children at this point.  The same children whom I love and care for deeply have seemingly turned their back on me in many ways.

What could they have done/said so you would not be fed up with them?  What could they have done so that you would think they kept their front towards you?

Circling back...how did you expect your revelations to your children to affect their relationship with their Father?  How did you expect it to affect your relationship with you?

Lots of questions I know...

Best,

FF