Do we validate feelings or beliefs?

[Woolspinner2000]

I had a rather interesting conversation with my T today. I thought it would be a helpful topic to discuss on the board.

I said something to my T about a recent conversation I had with DH. I got caught engaging DH in a conversation last week which is such an easy trap for me to fall into. I felt I was standing up for myself better, but you know, it really isn't about standing up for myself. No, that isn't so helpful because it doesn't change things with DH or make him accept me any better (which is what I think we end up trying to do). That is the JADE function in living color. For me, where I am now in the healing process, I find it most important that I don't engage with DH because it is still the same old dance. It leads to confusion for me, and kicks up my anxiety big time.

DH had said to me, "Somehow you always end up blaming me."  I do? Really? (Honest question) And I doubted myself and was afraid that what he said was true, even though I'm unaware of doing this. I told the T that I needed to validate the feelings of DH.

"You need to validate his feelings. That wasn't a feeling," my T said.

It wasn't? Wait! But...what was it then? I was astonished.

"That was a belief," he said, "an accusation, that you are blaming him. It was a false belief. Always validate feelings. Do NOT validate false beliefs."   

I suddenly feel as if I have no clue what the difference is between DH speaking his beliefs (whether true or false) and DH speaking his feelings. How am I to know the difference? I feel as if I was shortened on this one, never having learned it while growing up, and of course I did not. Having an uBPDm did not give me the opportunity to learn the healthy way of validating feelings, and every accusation seemed as if it was a feeling to me because I caused  my mom or my husband to 'feel' this way.

What are your thoughts on feelings vs beliefs?

Wools

[Notwendy]

I think it is about the language you use:

"Somehow you always blame me".

Feelings: "It must feel bad to think you are being blamed" "I'm sorry you feel that way"


Beliefs: "Yes, I do blame you sometimes, I will try not to do that".  This validates the invalid, you are not blaming him.

Invalidating: "no, I don't do that". "well you do this too".


Neither my H or I experienced validation. One crazy making thing he does is if I bring up something he did that upset me, he then recites a list of all the things I have done that upset him. It's the most invalidating experience and has made it hard to resolve issues. I have had to walk him through the steps to resolve a conflict. He did not learn how to do this growing up and this is what went on in his family.

My mother's FOO is very invalidating. I have felt invisible around them. I know one doesn't cause BPD but it is damaging emotionally to a child to not feel heard.

For me, the person who is upset has the stage. They talk- and what they want is to be heard. What they say may not be true, but feeling heard and understood feels validating. I try to listen, but not validate the invalid.

[Kwamina]

Hi Wools

Your main question is 'Do we validate feelings or beliefs?'

Notwendy has raised some very good points.

When it comes to validation, I think the most important question is probably 'Do we validate the valid or the invalid?'. Validation is not just about validating feelings, you can also validate thoughts or beliefs, but I think the crucial element is whether you are validating something which is valid or invalid.

Validating someone's thoughts, feelings, or beliefs does not necessarily mean we agree, overall, with what they are thinking, or feeling, or with their behavior.

So, the first thing to learn in validating others is to be able to identify something to validate in a "sea" of conflict that is both valid and important to the other person.

False accusations are per definition invalid. I think the difficult thing with your husband is that he not only makes false accusations, but that he also triggers you and makes you question yourself to the point that you start to think that his version of reality might actually be right. Not engaging him when he makes statements like 'you always end up blaming me', is a wise move I would say based on your past experiences and the effect he can have on you.

The practice of having a debate with someone who has strong biases can actually have the counter-productive effect of reinforcing their biases, as they repetitively remember and state the facts from their own point of view. This is what makes the idea of JADE - Justifying, Arguing, Defending or Explaining - such a bad idea.

Instead, it is recommended that on any given issue, state your point of view once and once only. Provide any clarifications that are asked for. Anything more than this is likely to be counter productive.

The Board Parrot

[Harri]

Hiya Woolite!

Interesting question and I think something for us to all think about.

I am going to Parrot the parrot and Notwendy by saying "yeah, what they said" about having the correct validation target.  

I wondered while reading if your T was questioning if you were validating your H's belief in your own mind.  We talk about validation in terms of the other person but I can see us doing it in our own mind (or maybe that is a sort of projective identification--- which is something I have been thinking of posting about so maybe that is why it popped into my head here ).

Can you give us a run down of how you would validate your husbands statement in this instance?

[No-One]

Hi Woolspinner2000:

If a particular emotion, like anger, isn't obvious, you may have to ask him how he feels when ________.  The, don't invalidate, rule might have to be a default if you aren't to pinpoint a feeling.

I came across this info. about emotions the blamer might feel and then emotions the person being blamed might fee.  Thought I'd share it.

Emotions and Blame

There are a number of emotions around blame. Some are felt by those who blame and some are felt by those who are blamed.

Emotions of blamers
People who blame others feel emotions both about the blamed and about themselves.

Disgust
When a person breaks values, then others may view this with disgust, seeing the other person as wrong or bad for breaking social rules.

Superiority
A person who blames feels superior to the person who they are blaming. This is necessary for the person to take the position of judge and jury.

Feeling superior is also related to feelings of pride and a moral indignation that positions themselves as good and the other person as bad.

Anger
Disgust may well be followed by or combined with anger at the action and the perpetrator.

Anger is a particularly unthinking emotion that is designed to drive a person to attack in the face of danger. In blame, it can lead to unpleasant outbursts that seek to cause the other person to retreat and admit guilt.

Hate
Anger and righteous indignation can lead to hate, which has a greater individual focus. Anger can be diffuse, hate is directed at a person.

Hate is a longer-term emotion and leads to a sustained recurrence of anger and attack. It is based on the belief that the other person is wholly bad (which is an easy conclusion from blame).

Fear
Blamers sometimes fear that the blame may not stick on the person blamed and that it may rebound or be re-routed onto them.

They may also fear that the blamed person will fight back and will blame them in turn for the initial blame and that the social relationship with the other person breaks down as a result.

Pity
Sometimes, the blamer feels sorry for the person being blamed. They may realize that the person had diminished responsibility in some way or were victims of circumstance.

Pity is typically used for people already in inferior positions, such as children, or friends where there is already a good social bond.

Relief
Blamers also feel relief that they are not being blamed. When something goes wrong and it is not clear who is responsible, people can fear that the blame will fall on them, whether or not they are responsible.

Emotions of blamed
People who are blamed are very likely to feel a number of emotions every bit as strongly as those who blame.

Guilt
Guilt is the acceptance of having committed an act that is socially undesirable. If the person feels responsible then they may well be feeling guilty even before they are accused.

Shame
Shame is similar to guilt but is more about regret and a realization of the social impact of acts. A person who feels shame is likely to feel bad about what they have done.

When people are found guilty, that they are judged to have committed the act, the accuser seeks to make the perpetrator feel ashamed.

Fear
When people have been accused, whether they are guilty or not, they may well fear what punishment they may receive, particularly social exclusion.

Anger
If the person feels they are being falsely accused, and particularly if they feel they are being deliberately picked on, them they will probably feel a righteous anger at this unfair situation.

If they are guilty, they may also feel anger at the events that led them to the situation where perhaps they felt obliged to act in a way that led to blame.

Discussion
Emotions are often strong drivers of how we behave and if you are involved in a blaming situation, do be careful. Look actively for emotions being displayed, especially how strongly they are being felt, and respond accordingly.

When people feel strongly, it can be a good idea to let them cool down if you want to talk rationally with them.

[Woolspinner2000]

You have each given me some good food to munch on. Llamas are ruminates, you know, so they get a lot of mileage out of what is given them. Very resourceful!   (Somehow that train of thought just popped out...!)

At first I was thinking there wasn't anything to be able to validate in his false belief statement, but I remembered that as I was taking my exit from the house, he also said how much I have rejected him for years. Typically I hear these phrases with astonishment, and per human nature I want to counteract and respond. But then, as the Board Parrot shared, I would only be doing this:

The practice of having a debate with someone who has strong biases can actually have the counter-productive effect of reinforcing their biases, as they repetitively remember and state the facts from their own point of view. This is what makes the idea of JADE - Justifying, Arguing, Defending or Explaining - such a bad idea

Somewhere's in that moment I remembered what Harri has been able to put into words that I could understand from previous threads along this same train of thought. I was able to say as I was almost out the door: "That must be pretty hard feeling that way. I know I wouldn't feel good about being rejected." He almost seemed pleased at my response, and then I left.

Parrot, do you think that what I was doing in that situation was this?

Validating someone's thoughts, feelings, or beliefs does not necessarily mean we agree, overall, with what they are thinking, or feeling, or with their behavior.

So, the first thing to learn in validating others is to be able to identify something to validate in a "sea" of conflict that is both valid and important to the other person.

I wanted to disagree verbally that I hadn't done that, but his perception is the only thing that matters here, not whether it is true or not. Isn't this the classic response we see with a BPD? I know it was with my mom.

Harri, I think that maybe I could say to DH, "That must be difficult to feel as if you are always blamed." Then leave it alone? I think this is along the lines of what NotWendy shared.

I don't know. I'm pretty rough with this stuff. This is the place to practice, isn't it? This is heavy to work through but good for us. Yes, Harri, I think it's quite possible that my T was thinking that I was validating DH's response in my mind, that I do indeed do what my husband says. It's an almost never ending debate within me, but the good news is that quite often now I am able to know that this isn't true, the things he says of me. That definitely points to healing, yet it does take a few debate sessions to consider the true facts and not the false beliefs. That's a challenge for me.

I read a great couple of lines in a book that I am finishing up. I'll quote it here:

"Townsend and Cloud, in their book Safe People, note that the key to deciding whether to leave or stay hinges on one last factor: Can the person you're with be safe?"
 "While they list numerous indicators of a safe person, one in particular stands out that I [the author Dr. David Hawkins] would like to highlight. Unsafe people think they have it all together rather than admitting weaknesses."

This is my husband.

 
Woolite 

[Skip]

Validate the most tangible and most important valid ideas, concepts, feelings, and the person, etc.  Don't validate invalid things.

You may have to flush that out.

"Somehow you always end up blaming me."

That's concerning. I wouldn't want that happening to me either.
Can you give me an example.
Well yes, I did think you were responsible. How did you see it?
I can see how you would see that.
etc.

[Harri]

**crossed with Skip**

I like it when the llama train rolls though!  Very creative Woolite!

Somewhere's in that moment I remembered what Harri has been able to put into words that I could understand from previous threads along this same train of thought. I was able to say as I was almost out the door: "That must be pretty hard feeling that way. I know I wouldn't feel good about being rejected." He almost seemed pleased at my response, and then I left.

I've learned some of the key phrases by reading on the relationship boards, and especially the bettering a relationship board where the tools are frequently talked about and applied.  I am still learning.  I can't use the tools with my parents but I can in other relationships in my life.  I know validation and Don't Jade helped a lot with my wacky roommate situation a couple of years ago.

I wonder if you might do well posting on the Bettering board to learn to apply the tools better with your hubby (while still posting here of course!).

Harri, I think that maybe I could say to DH, "That must be difficult to feel as if you are always blamed." Then leave it alone? I think this is along the lines of what NotWendy shared.

Yes, that would be good to say and then see where he goes with it.  

It is important that you are also authentic otherwise it will be obvious in your tone and that will not be good.  Can you feel compassion for the hurt and betrayal he may be feeling even if the feelings are not based on facts but rather his own insecurities, fears and defenses?  If so, speak from that place.  If not, then don't say anything else.   Don't invalidate is almost as important as don't validate the invalid.

[Turkish]

Turn it around if you said that,  is that stating a feeling, or is there something underneath that statement? Can you think of examples where you have said similar things?

This might be the opening to ask, "how do you feel that I blame you for [xyz]?" Let him respond which might give you a target for a SET response.

[Woolspinner2000]

I want to be sure and thank you, No-One for that list. There are a lot of specifics in there to help analyze what any of us may be feeling and what the blamed might be feeling as well. Good thoughts.

Skip, I want to stop a moment here and ask an important question that I am having trouble taking apart. Are the statements DH makes valid? Is there a target that I can actually search out to validate when he says these things?

You have rejected me for years.
You do not respect me/you don't understand how a man needs respect.
Somehow you always end up blaming me.

I have to turn off the part of my brain that screams to be acknowledged and instead focus on what my husband needs here? Or am I accomplishing a dual purpose by validating the valid and keeping myself somewhat safe from the emotional attacks? Validating is not necessarily agreeing, but neither do I want to reinforce what isn't true.

Sorry if I'm rambling. My head gets tired from all of this but it is worth the pressing on to learn to overcome, I know it to be true. The confidence I gain to no longer be a victim but to step off that drama triangle and walk in strength is so rewarding.

Back to respond to the rest of you later. 

 
Wools

[Notwendy]

For me, deciphering these kinds of messages was about boundaries. I grew up so suggestible by my parents. They defined me by their feelings. I didn't feel I was good enough. I tried to do nice things but often ended up with them being mad at me for something. I was a people pleaser, and what others thought of me was important to me. I think in a way, that will always be true. At work, I want to be perceived as doing a good job. I want my kids to think I'm a good mother.

I ran into this kind of situation with my H. No matter what, I would end up with him being angry or disappointed in me somehow. When I heard these accusations-- you don't... My first impulse was to jump to fix the situation. I wanted a happy marriage. But the trigger was a moving target- often something not under my control or something I inadvertently did.

An MC helped us to understand that when someone has an internal dialogue in their minds about themselves, they can interpret what others do or say in that mindset. I brought mine into my marriage and so did my H. It doesn't have to be from BPD parents, but other situations can do this as well. For my H it was very critical parents. So when I did something that he felt was critical of him, even if it wasn't even about him, he saw it as critical and reacted to that.

An example- I could go to the store and his favorite soda was out of stock. His reaction " you don't love me because you didn't get my favorite drinks". My reaction: of course I love you and now I need to fix this. I'd go back to another store and buy his soda thinking I fixed the problem. Until the next time when maybe I was late and forgot to call or some thing I had no idea I "did" or didn't do and I'd get the same accusation and try to fix that too.

Until I learned about boundaries and filtering what is true and what isn't. If it is true, then I can make amends. If it isn't true, then trying to fix it validates the invalid and it doesn't work. I can't fix the internal narrative going on with someone. I can only work on my own.

When faced with a false accusation, I can respond to the feelings but I do not JADE. " I am sorry you feel that way" is a response I have. Then I let it sit. Or ask him to explain why he feels that way. However, over time, my not responding to the accusations by JADE or trying to fix them has helped diminish this. Often he says these things in the heat of emotion and when he calms down realizes they aren't valid. I just have to manage my own feelings when I hear them and resist my own tendencies to get into my own dialogue and urge to fix them.

[Harri]

I don't know. I'm pretty rough with this stuff. This is the place to practice, isn't it? This is heavy to work through but good for us. Yes, Harri, I think it's quite possible that my T was thinking that I was validating DH's response in my mind, that I do indeed do what my husband says. It's an almost never ending debate within me, but the good news is that quite often now I am able to know that this isn't true, the things he says of me. That definitely points to healing, yet it does take a few debate sessions to consider the true facts and not the false beliefs. That's a challenge for me

I know you know this but (!) this speaks to the need to self-differentiate even more than you already have.  Not letting someone else's beliefs about you affect the way you see yourself, knowing that they can have their own opinion and it does not need to match yours.

Anyway, I just wanted to mention that here for anyone reading and in case you want to open another thread on ways you can work on self differentiating even more.   

[Woolspinner2000]

Harri, I do usually try to be authentic with DH, and when I speak to how I might feel in a similar situation, that certainly helps with authenticity. I do have to consider what to share or not to share so that I can remain safe. Some things are as mentioned before, not worth JADE, so I stay away from those things. In truth, rarely am I unkind towards anyone, even DH. I think I am more unkind to myself than to anyone else.

Our MC started educating me on the topic of differentiation. It was a word I had never heard before. I will definitely think about doing some more focus on that since it is another area that I need to learn about to help me. It somehow seems as if I am just beginning to have some emotional energy at times to focus on myself, switching the focus from DH towards self care. Mind you it is minimal at this point, but it is slightly better than what is was. With all the shift since we separated, I go back and forth between worrying about what he will think and do, to occasionally having a respite to consider myself and rest emotionally from the hyper vigilance. Of late I have been struggling. It is odd how we come and go, one day doing well, another 2 or 3 not doing well at all. A lot of roller coaster rides for me, and most of it is within my head, not always because of something DH has said or done. I think the un-learning when stepping out of trauma and abuse is hard.

Turkish,

Turn it around if you said that,  is that stating a feeling, or is there something underneath that statement? Can you think of examples where you have said similar things?

If I said some of these things, the pausing to look underneath the surface tells me that I would be feeling a lot of things. DH often says he doesn't have any feelings, yet his statements actually ooze with them. He just doesn't have enough self awareness to realize they are actually feelings. So is it best to approach this from the perspective that he is really speaking feelings even if he wouldn't acknowledge them? Do I assume this?

Notwendy, your thoughts were very helpful.

An MC helped us to understand that when someone has an internal dialogue in their minds about themselves, they can interpret what others do or say in that mindset. I brought mine into my marriage and so did my H. It doesn't have to be from BPD parents, but other situations can do this as well.

I see this happening in my situation, whether it is my own internal dialogue or that of my husband. The difficulty is in stepping back to realize it is taking place, but I think that you do this when you mentioned that "Until I learned about boundaries and filtering what is true and what isn't. If it is true, then I can make amends. If it isn't true, then trying to fix it validates the invalid and it doesn't work. I can't fix the internal narrative going on with someone. I can only work on my own. This really can be helpful to me, and also encourage that differentiation mentioned before.

The other day DH told me by text that "when you say something, I don't get it even though you said it." He said that unless it fits into a "system" it doesn't work for him. He also shuts his eyes when I speak to him. I often feel unseen and unheard.  Reading the book "Stop Caretaking the Borderline or Narcissist" has helped a lot when it comes to such things. Nonetheless I do still feel sad. More things to consider to see if there is something to validate or not. Ah, my head gets tired!

Wools

[Skip]

Skip, I want to stop a moment here and ask an important question that I am having trouble taking apart. Are the statements DH makes valid? Is there a target that I can actually search out to validate when he says these things?

Think of the old time politicians that have opposite views but treated each other with respect and friendship.

Relationships are always about finding points of agreement and validation... you do that in the 30 sec exchange with the person manning the cash register at the market.

Right now you are upset with what he is saying so it is hard to manage your communication back to him. Executive function would suggest to at least compartmentalize this and stay in bounds with your communication.

Look. He things you always [unfairly] blame him. You feel that is unfairly characterizing you as being wrong. He feels blamed. You feel accused. Now the choice is twofold:

Enter into a cycle of conflict where you each try to make your partner see it your way Accept that he sees it differently and there is likely some level of validity here and that it is OK for him to have these feelings.  Accept that his feelings do not define you... it is OK that you don't see it the same.

It's not about who is right. It is about how each of you feel. Sometimes it important that we accept the later and work with it, rather than try to "right it".

[Woolspinner2000]

Very rough day last night and today with my husband and his text communication. Whew.

I chose to step back and sit on a difficult interaction with him from yesterday so that I would pause to respond, not to react. Since I would've been reacting and really preferred to not do that and continue the merry-go-round, I just chose to not respond to him last night. This morning I sent a message that was polite, and I was comfortable in saying, "Looks like it is all taken care of." He had signed a re roofing contract on our house. I have never seen the contract or been given much information about it. I am concerned, but I have a choice as to how I will respond to what is now signed and done that I cannot change. So I felt good in staying neutral, or what I thought was my best shot at neutral.

Apparently it must be a major trigger to him that I didn't respond to his texts last night. I didn't see that coming. He responded with text after text of one accusation after another this morning. I responded to say that it sounded like he had a lot of negative feelings coming out, and I was sorry he was going through that. Tried to validate his feelings that I could tell were pretty strong. It wasn't about me, and I wasn't interested in defending at all. It just was what it was. I didn't respond to the accusations; just let them sit. Again, no point. I didn't JADE.

I used SET to respond to one text in which he was angry about my going out of town on Father's Day which is also my birthday. I Supported and Empathized by understanding how he might see it as a rejection. I spoke Truth that the date was chosen by my cousins for their parent's (my aunt and uncle) 50th wedding anniversary.

Tonight it was a series of texts about our cell phones and why I changed them and how could I do that? Problem is that I am not aware of having changed anything.  I didn't engage with him and repeated very very clearly that I have no idea what he is talking about. It astonished me how many accusations were coming out. I suppose I will need to go to the cell phone store and figure out what I have no idea that I need to do or change since he said he cannot.

I'm trying to respect his feelings, validate the feelings that I can, and I know this isn't about me. I'm not seeking for validation from him, just trying to weather the storms. 

 Wools

[Libra]

Hi Wools,

I’m late to the thread. I hope you don’t mind me jumping in.

I chose to step back and sit on a difficult interaction with him from yesterday so that I would pause to respond, not to react.

I think you were wise to step back and process before reacting. It helps to become aware of your own emotions. It also enables you to choose to step away from your pre-programmed reactions and gives you headspace to decide how to move forward. This is a very important step towards good self-care IMO.

Apparently it must be a major trigger to him that I didn't respond to his texts last night.

I can see how this would be a trigger. You are changing your interactions with your H, and he will have to learn to handle these changes. He is used to having you around to regulate his emotions. Not responding forced him to sit this one out on his own. He dysregulated as a consequence, once again using you to let off steam. Your H will need time to learn to cope with this new way of communicating. It will probably cause some flare-ups from his side. Remember: This is not your fault. You did nothing wrong.

I’d also like to refer back to your first post in this thread, because I can really relate to the struggle between JADEing beliefs and validating feelings.

I doubted myself and was afraid that what he said was true, even though I'm unaware of doing this

Might this be part of the core issue? Imagine he would have accused you of something completely preposterous, like: ‘You always wear yellow shoes because I don’t like yellow.’ (I have nothing against yellow btw, it’s just an example!). Would the self-doubt have kicked in? Would you have felt the urge to question yourself and then defend? I ask because I often struggle with this. The self-doubt kicks in and I start reacting/defending as soon as someone slings a comment at me with the underlying message that I am selfish, or not accommodating to the other person in one sense or another. It’s this internalized message of not being good enough that gets dragged back up and shrinks my self-belief. It makes me lose my bearings. I think if we have a stronger sense of self (differentiation, as Harri said!), it would be less of a struggle to see through the belief and notice the miscommunicated feelings that are hidden behind them. Just my two cents though. Please disregard if I've missed the ball completely.

I am glad to hear you now have moments where you can truly focus on yourself. I hope these moments will only increase.



Libra.