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Author Topic: Is it weird that I feel good about discovering my codependency?  (Read 510 times)
WitzEndWife
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« on: June 18, 2019, 04:52:04 PM »

So, I never thought of myself as a codependent person. I always thought of codependency as coming from someone who was needy or a mothering type and that's not me. Before I met my husband, I'd been single for four years and I didn't hate it. I enjoyed my solitude and my adventures.

I've recently discovered through therapy, here, and reading, that I am, in fact, codependent. I put people's needs before my own as a means of validation. It's kind of like, if I go along with what other people want, they'll like me and want to date me or befriend me. As such, I avoid conflict with people I really want to like me and I go so far as to avoid judging them realistically. I tamp down my own feelings because I don't want to be rejected. With my husband, I knew on some level that he was "fast-forwarding" our relationship in the beginning, but I didn't stop to slow things down or question him because I thought maybe I was overreacting and I wanted him to like me. I turned off "smart, reasonable me" in order to avoid rejection.

And now we're here, where I worry more about his feelings than about mine. Even though I'm uncomfortable in this relationship and I feel our values are no longer aligned, and that he's controlling and often emotionally abusive, I still am more concerned about re-traumatizing him than I am about my own needs. I still feel more guilt about the prospect of hurting him than I feel concern about my own pain every day.

And there's a certain level of need, of validation, that he affords me at the same time, obviously. When he is his "good" self, he gives me things I need - praises me, provides some comfort.

I thought I'd be ashamed or upset about discovering that I was codependent, but I actually feel good about it. Not about being codependent, but I feel good that now I know more about my issues and how to work through them. Now that I know why I'm putting his needs before my own, I now can try to change my patterns.

It's not easy, but I'm very glad I'm making progress!

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« Reply #1 on: June 18, 2019, 05:48:05 PM »

Awareness is empowering. 
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« Reply #2 on: June 18, 2019, 08:47:27 PM »


Solid!

You have a reference and a point of view now and can make adjustments from there.

Good work!

Best,

FF
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« Reply #3 on: June 19, 2019, 09:36:34 AM »

So, I never thought of myself as a codependent person. I always thought of codependency as coming from someone who was needy or a mothering type and that's not me.

Before I met my husband, I'd been single for four years and I didn't hate it. I enjoyed my solitude and my adventures.

I've recently discovered through therapy, here, and reading, that I am, in fact, codependent.

I put people's needs before my own as a means of validation.

It's kind of like, if I go along with what other people want, they'll like me and want to date me or befriend me.

As such, I avoid conflict with people I really want to like me and I go so far as to avoid judging them realistically.

I tamp down my own feelings because I don't want to be rejected.

I turned off "smart, reasonable me" in order to avoid rejection.

Hello WitzEndWife,

I too was, and most likely still am very codependent,

I stumbled across an article this past weekend on "echoism"… this is something new to me, very interesting, I read it on 'Psychology Today'… I've been looking for any information on "echoism" on this website, but so far no joy (can the mods offer assist?).

This is an exert… "Of all the people we measured, echoists were the most “warm-hearted,” but they were also afraid of becoming a burden, felt unsettled by attention, especially praise, and agreed with statements like, “When people ask me my preferences, I’m often at a loss."

Basically, an "echoist" is set up to be a codependent… makes a lot of sense to me, this is me, in a lot of regards… ie' I am a "people pleaser"… to the extent of doing emotional (self esteem) mental damage to my own self... perhaps to the point of "stockholm syndrome" for lack of a better description.

Does any of this make sense to you WeW?

Kind Regards, Red5
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« Reply #4 on: June 19, 2019, 10:05:34 AM »

I stumbled across an article this past weekend on "echoism" … this is something new to me, very interesting, … I read it on 'Psychology Today' … I've been looking for any information on "echoism" on this website, but so far no joy (can the mods offer assist?).

This is an exert … "Of all the people we measured, echoists were the most “warm-hearted,” but they were also afraid of becoming a burden, felt unsettled by attention, especially praise, and agreed with statements like, “When people ask me my preferences, I’m often at a loss."

Interesting topic. Here's the link to that article. https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/romance-redux/201809/what-makes-person-echoist

What you've said reminds me of doing a practice therapy session when I was in grad school. My fellow student told me, "You can say what you don't want, but you can't say what you want." That really struck me and I'd never had anyone point this out to me before.
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« Reply #5 on: June 19, 2019, 11:21:14 AM »

What you've said reminds me of doing a practice therapy session when I was in grad school. My fellow student told me, "You can say what you don't want, but you can't say what you want." That really struck me and I'd never had anyone point this out to me before.

… along the lines of, "it is far better to give them what they want, when they want it… even if you don't have it… so that they will love you, and won't abandon you (for someone better)… yup, that was me in my first marriage… it was very "expensive" in every meaning of the word, and in the end... unsustainable.

Bullets follow:
*always put yourself last.
*never accept accolades, praise, or "atta boys".
*protect the other person always even when they are abusive to you.
*never show your true feelings for fear of _____ .
*be a "sweeper", a "cleaner" in the wake of your "other person/partner".
*enable, for the sake of keeping the peace.
*go along to get along, even if its harmful to you.
*never question, never challenge, never hold the other accountable.

I've been thinking lately (my own perceived thoughts) about the difference(s) between the two terms, "care-taker", and "care-giver".

We seem to use these two terms "willy-nilly"… they are auto-reversible, interchangeable… but I think they mean different things, in our bpd relationships… for the sake of this forum...

*caretaker… you take care of another, or something, and you expect to be offered reciprocal treatment… services, payment?… ie' a night watchmen for example, or a nursing home worker (nurse)… in a relationship, you caretake the other, and expect (hopefully) them to respect you back, to have your back... and return your love, adoration, support… you give "care", and then you gladly "take" what comes back to you... you are a "caretaker".

*caregiver… means just what it says… you give, and expect nothing in return… nothing, just out of the "goodness of your heart"… "launch and forget"… like dropping off a case of soup at the local soup kitchen… like taking care of your lover, when they are sick, depressed, hungover, in jail .. whatever… you just do it, even if they leave you in the end, abuse you or whatever .. you "give" to them… you give the "care" to the other… you just "give"… and expect nothing back, in fact you quickly forget you even gave anything… its automatic… you are a caregiver...

These are my own thoughts (dangerous )… been taking a lot of vitamin B12 lately  

This is a great thread WitzEndWife 

Red5

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« Reply #6 on: June 19, 2019, 02:54:17 PM »

Red5, that's a very thought-provoking distinction you make between caretaker and caregiver. I definitely fall into the latter category. My issue is that I'm not an endless doormat, in that I do speak up for myself, but I do it at last, and not at first. So, I can let someone step on my foot for an hour until I'm finally fed up and say, "Hey, that hurts!"

I think I'm always afraid to "rock the boat" with my own needs, for fear that the person will get angry or reject me. This, of course, stems from my middle school angst, where I really deeply wanted friends and the girls in school were clique-y and mean. I think if they had told me, "If you want to be in our group, all you have to do is grow a second head," I would have.

It's interesting how we learn this behavior over time. It takes a lot to unlearn it.

I'm in this place where I still have this immense fear of my husband ultimately devaluing me if I tell him I want to separate. Part of me wants to run back to the safety of pretending everything is okay and just going along to get along. I was talking to my mother earlier today and I did realize that, on some level, I must believe the devaluation, or think I deserve it, and the idea of that is horrifically painful. Because, if I didn't on some level believe it, I wouldn't be afraid of it. It wouldn't affect me. I wonder why words have so much power over me.
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« Reply #7 on: June 20, 2019, 10:49:49 AM »

I think a lot of us here probably display some degree of co-dependency.  It's why we ended up in a relationship with a pwBPD instead of dropping them like a hot potato the first time they trampled all over our boundaries or betrayed our trust. 

Still, I don't think a degree of co-dependency is necessarily a bad thing to be.  I also think being too forward (almost impulsive?) is more problematic.  In my opinion there is nothing wrong with being deliberate and taking time to think through decisions and consider what you want.

Unfortunately, even mild co-dependency gets worse when you're in a relationship with a pwBPD, as their impulsive decision making and rash demands really overwhelm more deliberate, and less emotional people.  But I think if you're here questioning your relationship and dynamic in the first place, chances are you're not 100% codependent. 

So Don't be too harsh on yourself for the situation you find yourself in.  It's important to want to please others, and relationships depend on give-and-take (particularly ones who deserve it), and sometimes you have to put other's needs first. 

Unfortunately, pwBPD - by their nature - take advantage of that dynamic.  Can't & shouldn't let that change who you are for the worse.
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« Reply #8 on: June 20, 2019, 12:37:59 PM »

WitzendWife,
It is good to hear of your progress! 
Excerpt
I never thought of myself as a codependent person. I always thought of codependency as coming from someone who was needy or a mothering type

I think many of us never even considered codependency as we struggled to survive with our BPDso.  When my T smacked me with the fact that I was acting as a codependent caregiver it was like a weight was lifted off me.  I then looked at myself and my family dynamic that has led me here.  I am in a much better place for it.

Red5,
I love the distinction between caretaker and care giver.  I think since so many of us are in codependent relationships that your definition strikes a chord. It especially does with me.  The care taker is very transactional in how they see giving.  My experience with my BPDw is that she sees herself as a caretaker who has been wronged by not receiving something back in return.  Part of the martyr many of us have described.  Yet my BPDw sees herself as a selfless caregiver...as long as we do what she says. 

For my part I feel I am a caregiver.  There is never an expectation for any reciprocation.  But as I have taken inventory of myself in therapy this last two years I have seen that I have "over given".  I have given at every turn expecting nothing to the detriment of my own well being.  I would ask how many of us in the codependent loop feel the same.   

B

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« Reply #9 on: June 20, 2019, 04:46:07 PM »

I felt and still feel quite sick about it.  Was a very disturbing discovery for me.   I was very much single by choice for many years before I entered into this relationship. I was content with being alone, enjoyed my own company and rarely felt lonely. Yet here I am now in this relationship and I feel so alone and lonely.
 Honestly,  I still don't know where and how it all went so wrong.
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« Reply #10 on: June 20, 2019, 07:23:58 PM »

WEW, pwBPD are usually attracted to either NPDs or codependents.

My uBPD H's X W is likely NPD.  I have seen what her personality has done to her children, now adults. They are all in some of the NPD and BPD spectrum.

She left H after ten years of marriage to marry the lover she found while H was overseas in the military for six months.  All the while, I understand, she wrote loving letters until the day he arrived back home and she demanded a divorce.

My R/S with my uBPD H started out very fast and I had no clue what love bombing was. I thought he was the man of my dreams.  In fact, he was only showing me what I wanted to see.  

Don't feel bad about being codependent.  That means you are a warm and loving person.  I am also with a T and learning how to live with my H.  I now understand it's not about me, but about him.  I am learning my own FOO contributed to my choosing him as a partner.  We have been together over 20 years, and only now is he getting "better" and much less abusive. I think a lot of it his realising he own F is a uNPD, and he had a very unhappy childhood; H had not been able to accept that.  His F was emotionally abusive to his M, and H now understands she deserved a better marriage.  Maybe that introspection is making my H less abusive to me.  I have also learned not to take the abuse personally.  I used to be devastated to tears when H deregulated:  punching holes in walls (in my presence and not), breaking objects, making almost weekly divorce threats, name calling of the worst kind.  Now I just look at him like a child having a tantrum.  Of course, I now have much less respect for him for having no self control.

So the take home:  WEW, you are a nice, trusting person.  
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WitzEndWife
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« Reply #11 on: June 21, 2019, 10:09:49 AM »

I think what PeteWitsend said really made sense. It is a bit like a frog being boiled in water how pwBPD seem to trap you into deeper and deeper codependency. I think you get used to the roller coaster of emotions and the extreme valuation vs. devaluation cycle. My uBPDh tends to be more of a "petulant" BPD subtype, meaning he's very irritable, defiant, passive aggressive, and complains about everything, and tends to have a very negative view of the world. He's very mistrusting of authority and is also prone to believing conspiracy theories as a result. This subtype tends to also engage in a lot of push-pull behavior, feeling  an intense need of their "favorite person" and also a resentment of them and a need to push them away. His early persona (the mask he put on for the first 8 months of our relationship), however, was one of a deeply sensitive, curious person, with a profoundly loving heart and a deep need to be helpful. He used to hate to see me in any way upset. Now, when I cry, he gets angry at me.

It wasn't as though he flipped a switch and became this other person though. He started drinking heavily, and the petulant persona would come out when he was drunk. It started as this super annoying, impish personality type, where he would do things intentionally to bother me. One time he was playing around with a belt, acting like he was going to hit me with it, being really reckless, and laughing when I told him to stop, that he was actually going to hit me if he wasn't careful. And then he did actually accidentally hit me in the face. When I told him about it the next day, he didn't remember.  I remember being really upset about how mean spirited he was, but at that time I thought it was a drinking problem. He stopped drinking as much,  but his petulance manifested in other ways, especially while driving. He would constantly defy my wishes to stop driving recklessly. He would get furious at me for "not trusting" him.

If you're under the impression that a relationship is "normal," for lack of a better term, I think you think that, as long as you can discuss and compromise on something, things will be okay. I think when you're in the realm of "this is normal, I just need to do X..." it's a totally different mindset and approach. Meanwhile, you're getting further and further sunk into codependency - because they act like things are going to change and get better, and then they don't. And, eventually, they just stop pretending, once they know you're hooked in.

Now, with my uBPDh, he believes he's 100 percent justified in everything he does, and "if only I wouldn't do X" our relationship would be good. This is not a good place to be in for me and I know this. The problem is all of the up and down and trauma it took to get me here has me emotionally locked into place.

At least now I can work through unsticking myself. I really wish that I could just say to him, "I'm not happy and this isn't working" and he'd be sad but understanding, but I know that's not the case. If I say so, in his eyes it's because I hate him and I'm a bad person for hating him, and so he hates me and will hate me for life. And that's SO, SO painful, considering how much angst I've gone through out of love and care.

I do think about how he talks about his exes, and he's really not hateful towards them. He has sometimes said some bad things, but overall, he isn't overly negative. I wonder if, over time, he'd look at me that way, or if I'd always be the horrible liberal harpy who ruined his life.

I don't know. These are the things I think about. I know I need to be thinking more about me and what I'll think and feel after everything is said and done. It does help me to fantasize about the things I'd do without him. Like, I'd repaint the deck from that horrible dark purple and gold he wanted to a nice blue or aqua, or that I'd put curtains in the upstairs bedroom to block out the light, or that I'd buy some house plants and put up some of the artwork that he doesn't like on the walls. I'd clean up the finished part of the basement and create a space for a treadmill and a spin bike. I'd have friends over and host political planning parties (which I can't do because we're political opposites). I could have lazy days to write and enjoy silence. I can't remember the last time the house was silent all day. He always has to have music or TV.

I think it would be nice in the end and I know I need to focus on those things. It will take a bit more time to get to where I can actually do the breaking up, but at least I'm in the process.
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« Reply #12 on: June 21, 2019, 10:31:32 AM »

Excerpt
He used to hate to see me in any way upset. Now, when I cry, he gets angry at me.

Sometime last summer, ubpdw and I were "in the midst"… I decided to take a time out, so I went out onto the back porch and sat on the swing… utterly squashed, beat up (emotionally)… tools weren't working, she was really on a roll… and I started to think, "this is never going to change, she is never going to get any better, in fact she is getting worse"…

She then comes out there onto the porch, marches right up to me, and says to me "what's wrong with you"… so I decided to have a little extinction burst… and in a moment of clarity (heated thought process)… I decided to be brutally honest… I said to her… "I am depressed "Q", "I'm so sad that we fight all the time, its Saturday for crying out loud, its a beautiful day", "can't we just have some peace for once"… "I mean come on now, lighten the /F/ up ok"...

She looks me right in the eyeballs and says… "get up off your @SS, and be a Man!"… oh well, so much for EMAPTHY !

… a "man" huh… grrrrr ; (

So, last Friday night, we went to dinner, a "date" (we've been separated for almost seven months now)… and she brought that back up again… she says to me, "Red, it really pissed me off when you told me you were depressed"… I didn't know quite where to stow that… or else what to say… then I came out with… "sorry that you feel that way"…

So about that time the waitress came around to freshen up our drinks… and "Q" (ubpdw) moved onto the next topic (projection)… but it was good to be out with her, she is a very beautiful woman, she is my wife, and I do love her… and as she went on and on, I searched for scraps to validate… all the while remembering to "not" validate the invalid…

Red5
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WitzEndWife
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« Reply #13 on: June 24, 2019, 01:32:51 PM »

I know that there's somewhat of a challenge for pwBPD to separate themselves from others - and not to take things personally, even when they have nothing to do with them. Now, me crying is just an "attack" on him, it's a threat, so he gets angry.

My uBPDh also gets really upset when I complain about anything, even when he's blatantly crashing through a boundary. For example, last night, I'd fallen asleep around 10:45, and he came to bed around midnight. The first thing he does is turn on the bedside lamp that is blaringly bright, right into my face. I sit up a little and say, "Hey!" He immediately becomes angry with me, saying, "What's your problem?" When I tell him, he says he has a "right" to read before bed, and that I could just wear an eye mask and get over it. I hate wearing eye masks. I told him, sure, he had a right to read before bed, but I had a right to a good night's sleep and he was being inconsiderate by turning on that bright light in my face. He tried to paint me as a controlling harpy, as he commonly loves to do. I put my eye mask on (which I hate, but I was too tired to care) and told him I was done arguing and needed sleep. Next time, he had options: come to bed when I come to bed, get a personal book light for reading after I'm asleep, or sleep in the other room. Thankfully, he didn't keep going after that. I think, he actually recognized, on some level, that he was in the wrong, although he'd never admit it.

It's just all these little bits and pieces of inconsiderate behavior that chip away at my own compassion. Mentally, I'm trying to put myself more into the scenario where he's not around. I ordered a book on codependency. I'm doing what I can to help myself, even though it's difficult when he's still around and being manipulative. I have to get to the point where his barbs don't hurt as much. If I could get there, I'd be in great shape.
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« Reply #14 on: July 09, 2019, 01:56:47 PM »

I'm relatively new here,and as I am reading through some of the threads trying to get a grasp on my relationship I cam across this thread and (I'm sorry if this is considered hijacking) I found that the comments posted by red5 are so incredibly similar to my experiences with my uBPDw.  The way you described her anger at you sharing that you were depressed was spot on.

Several years ago we were in a therapy session together and it came up that I didn't seem happy.  The therapist asked if i had ever thought about hurting myself, and I hesitated, but wanted to honest and said that those thoughts had crossed my mind a time or two.  At that point my wife put her hand on my back in a comforting way, and I thought "wow, she is aware of my pain, that's amazing!"

After we left the session, on the drive home she turned to me and said "If you have ever really had those thoughts about hurting yourself, know that you will burn in hell for it!"

I had to pull over to the side of the road, I had never felt so emotionally hurt, and my soul ripped out like that before.  I don't even remember if I said anything after that, it was the lowest point of my life for me to share my most vulnerable emotions and fears, and have her not only degrade me, but also make sure she didn't do it in front of someone that would see her do it. 

To know that the caring compassion I felt during the session was just her protecting herself from looking bad in front of the therapist was almost more than I could handle.  I honestly don't know if I will ever be able to get that moment out of my head.

I'm sorry if this is not really the place to share that, but reading what red5 wrote, brought that memory the forefront of my mind, and I had to get it out.

Thanks

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