An emotional minefield that I have failed to navigate

[Depression = 72% of members]

Hi, my name is All_Out_of_Sync and I think my wife has several characteristics of BPD. [Waves to the group.]

I know it is a fool's errand to attempt to put the every detail of the last two decades into words. Instead I am going to make an attempt to explain how I find myself here, lurking for a few weeks, reading stories and experiences that have confirmed I am not the only one to live in this nightmare for so long...

Early on there were a few bumps in the relationship, demands that seemed hard, if not impossible to negotiate, but what relationship doesn't have a few things to smooth out? (Hindsight I can see just how indicative they were.) At the time, they were just things to work on. To see, if not eye to eye, at least we were committed to eachother and on the same team (boy was that some youthful, and misplaced, optimism!) At this point, I have been married for almost 20 incredibly difficult years.

We married in our very early 20s and quickly had a surprise pregnancy (she was on the pill). It was sooner than I expected but I was happy. I have always loved children and was excited to be a father. Unfortunately not long after child #1 was born, the threats of divorce started. If she wasn't getting what she wanted, she threatened. I BEGGED her repeatedly to see a couples counselor but she refused.

Over the years it shifted from threats of divorce to then include packing the kids to leave (we had more kids) or even threats of restraining orders to keep me from my children. I was young and afraid to make things worse, I often gave in as much as I could without giving ALL of myself away. I didn't tell family or friends what was going on thinking something like, "how could I betray my wife like that?" (Yes, I have come to realize just how wrong I was in that thinking.  Although I didn't say it at the time, friends and family new something was wrong and have been open to listening & affirming me recently.)

She often told me if I loved her better, we wouldn't have these fights. My faith tells me that we are supposed to love one another, even our enemies, surely I could continue to love my wife regardless of how she treated me? I have come to know that was not love...it must be freely given, not demanded, threatened or coerced. We are also supposed to love others as we love OURSELVES.

This continued for more than a decade until one night, after being treated particularly horrible on an anniversary, I finally said, I couldn't do this any more, was leaving and started packing. That was not an empty threat from me, I was literally DONE. She immediately offered to see a therapist together. We did and got to an better, if temporary, place. Hindsight, I wish I had walked out the door.

In that period of newly found calm, an opportunity came up for me that was cross country. It would be a new challenge but would take us away from both families of origin (trigger points). I brought it up thinking she would be opposed but I was pleasantly surprised when we came to a fairly easy consensus of moving.

I was excited to have a fresh start in a new city from a stronger place in our marriage (I thought). At this point I thought we had resolved some communication issues and found ways to turn towards eachother as partners...if I knew what I know now, I would never have moved my family.

Almost immediately new (but old) things started flaring up. It was ROUGH. I couldn't figure anything out. Every move I made was wrong and felt like it only made things worse. I gave more and more and got less and less.

Eventually I found a therapist who suggested I work on myself before considering couples work. That was the best advice i could have received and over the last handful of years, I have been intentionally working on myself. I did group work, I read copious amounts of books, listened to podcasts and I have spoken to an individual therapist for myself.

But no matter what strides I made, no matter how I positioned myself or tried to engage differently, our relationship continued to be a mine field.

At the same time, I was reading Brene Brown's books and realizing how much shame is a part of the problem. I encouraged my wife to read them so we could talk about them and surprisingly she agreed. She acknowledged how much shame is a part of her reaction but the relief & progress was non existent as some other conflict derailed that direction fairly quickly.

Finally, after a few more blow ups, my T and I talked through what it would look like for me to be willing to try couples therapy again. I came to the conclusion that I could try it as a limited engagement; if it helped, great, if not, I could check it off as trying.

The approach I wanted did not occur (wife refused) but i settled on one she would see. Couples sessions didn't last long as when I addressed things that occurred in session that I found worrisome and he chalked them up to "communication styles & misunderstandings." Instead of feeling like we were getting at underlying patterns of behavior, he was telling me to ignore my instincts and after this long, that is not what I was willing to do.

As I continued with my T and reading I stumbled into books on personality disorders. I started with NPD...it was close to an explanation in the ideas of Narcissistic Supply, flying monkeys & Narcissistic Injury but there were characteristics that didn't click. When I moved to BPD & read "Stop Walking on Eggshells" the coin dropped in the slot, the lightbulb went on in a BIG way...it was actually more like a floodlight!

I could make sense of the threats & manipulation. I could frame all the incomprehensible into something that made 'sense'. There has been a pervasive pattern of behavior throughout my two decades of marriage that fit into the framework of BPD in a way that truly allows me to breath. She brought something unseen and invisible into our marriage. She doesn't have a diagnosis but I have an understanding of what I have been struggling with in our relationship.

No longer do I have to fight for the facts to be acknowledged, I have a better understanding that for her, "feeling dictate facts." I get why she clings to doing things that define her as a person (caretaking activities) and her inability to have a self-image of worthiness. The dissociative states, denying words she says when she lashes out. Accusations of things occurring or not occurring. The hypersensitivity of interpersonal relationships. The idealization & devaluation phases I experience. The fear of rejection, separateness. The antagonistic behavior. Pervasive shame. Irritability in her responses...it has been present the whole time. (Thankfully violence, self-harm and suicidal threats are not part of this story.)

The emotional dysregulation has been consistent and pervasive. A few recent examples...

• I asked her if she wanted to watch a favorite show together, she declined. When I started watching without her, she had a fit, screamed at me & threw a door-slamming temper tantrum.

• At one point, we agreed on a home improvement project and signed a contract. The very next day, she yelled at me that it wasn't a good time to take on joint debt and demanded to cancel the order.

• I asked for the dates of a trip she was planning to subsequently be yelled at that I don't know what is going on with her health.
 
I don't know if I am right, maybe it isn't BPD.
 What I do know is that I am not alone in experiencing the type of emotional minefield that I have failed to navigate.

I don't know what this all means, I don't know where I am headed. What I do know is that information feels empowering and gives me hope. Not so much for my marriage but hope that I will be able to set better boundaries for myself and my children. I know I have stayed because of them, I have tried to protect them from what I didn't even understand. I hope I will be able to do even more now that I have a possible explanation...

The heartbreaking stories I have read on this forum have given me hope that I have found a place to talk about what is going on. A place to be encouraged and to encourage others. I look forward to getting to know more of you as we walk through life together.

My name is All_Out_of_Sync, thanks for listening to my story.

[All_Out_of_Sync]

Hi, my name is All_Out_of_Sync and I think my wife has several characteristics of BPD. [Waves to the group.]

I know it is a fool's errand to attempt to put the every detail of the last two decades into words. Instead I am going to make an attempt to explain how I find myself here, lurking for a few weeks, reading stories and experiences that have confirmed I am not the only one to live in this nightmare for so long...

Early on there were a few bumps in the relationship, demands that seemed hard, if not impossible to negotiate, but what relationship doesn't have a few things to smooth out? (Hindsight I can see just how indicative they were.) At the time, they were just things to work on. To see, if not eye to eye, at least we were committed to eachother and on the same team (boy was that some youthful, and misplaced, optimism!) At this point, I have been married for almost 20 incredibly difficult years.

We married in our very early 20s and quickly had a surprise pregnancy (she was on the pill). It was sooner than I expected but I was happy. I have always loved children and was excited to be a father. Unfortunately not long after child #1 was born, the threats of divorce started. If she wasn't getting what she wanted, she threatened. I BEGGED her repeatedly to see a couples counselor but she refused.

Over the years it shifted from threats of divorce to then include packing the kids to leave (we had more kids) or even threats of restraining orders to keep me from my children. I was young and afraid to make things worse, I often gave in as much as I could without giving ALL of myself away. I didn't tell family or friends what was going on thinking something like, "how could I betray my wife like that?" (Yes, I have come to realize just how wrong I was in that thinking.  Although I didn't say it at the time, friends and family new something was wrong and have been open to listening & affirming me recently.)

She often told me if I loved her better, we wouldn't have these fights. My faith tells me that we are supposed to love one another, even our enemies, surely I could continue to love my wife regardless of how she treated me? I have come to know that was not love...it must be freely given, not demanded, threatened or coerced. We are also supposed to love others as we love OURSELVES.

This continued for more than a decade until one night, after being treated particularly horrible on an anniversary, I finally said, I couldn't do this any more, was leaving and started packing. That was not an empty threat from me, I was literally DONE. She immediately offered to see a therapist together. We did and got to an better, if temporary, place. Hindsight, I wish I had walked out the door.

In that period of newly found calm, an opportunity came up for me that was cross country. It would be a new challenge but would take us away from both families of origin (trigger points). I brought it up thinking she would be opposed but I was pleasantly surprised when we came to a fairly easy consensus of moving.

I was excited to have a fresh start in a new city from a stronger place in our marriage (I thought). At this point I thought we had resolved some communication issues and found ways to turn towards eachother as partners...if I knew what I know now, I would never have moved my family.

Almost immediately new (but old) things started flaring up. It was ROUGH. I couldn't figure anything out. Every move I made was wrong and felt like it only made things worse. I gave more and more and got less and less.

Eventually I found a therapist who suggested I work on myself before considering couples work. That was the best advice i could have received and over the last handful of years, I have been intentionally working on myself. I did group work, I read copious amounts of books, listened to podcasts and I have spoken to an individual therapist for myself.

But no matter what strides I made, no matter how I positioned myself or tried to engage differently, our relationship continued to be a mine field.

At the same time, I was reading Brene Brown's books and realizing how much shame is a part of the problem. I encouraged my wife to read them so we could talk about them and surprisingly she agreed. She acknowledged how much shame is a part of her reaction but the relief & progress was non existent as some other conflict derailed that direction fairly quickly.

Finally, after a few more blow ups, my T and I talked through what it would look like for me to be willing to try couples therapy again. I came to the conclusion that I could try it as a limited engagement; if it helped, great, if not, I could check it off as trying.

The approach I wanted did not occur (wife refused) but i settled on one she would see. Couples sessions didn't last long as when I addressed things that occurred in session that I found worrisome and he chalked them up to "communication styles & misunderstandings." Instead of feeling like we were getting at underlying patterns of behavior, he was telling me to ignore my instincts and after this long, that is not what I was willing to do.

As I continued with my T and reading I stumbled into books on personality disorders. I started with NPD...it was close to an explanation in the ideas of Narcissistic Supply, flying monkeys & Narcissistic Injury but there were characteristics that didn't click. When I moved to BPD & read "Stop Walking on Eggshells" the coin dropped in the slot, the lightbulb went on in a BIG way...it was actually more like a floodlight!

I could make sense of the threats & manipulation. I could frame all the incomprehensible into something that made 'sense'. There has been a pervasive pattern of behavior throughout my two decades of marriage that fit into the framework of BPD in a way that truly allows me to breath. She brought something unseen and invisible into our marriage. She doesn't have a diagnosis but I have an understanding of what I have been struggling with in our relationship.

No longer do I have to fight for the facts to be acknowledged, I have a better understanding that for her, "feeling dictate facts." I get why she clings to doing things that define her as a person (caretaking activities) and her inability to have a self-image of worthiness. The dissociative states, denying words she says when she lashes out. Accusations of things occurring or not occurring. The hypersensitivity of interpersonal relationships. The idealization & devaluation phases I experience. The fear of rejection, separateness. The antagonistic behavior. Pervasive shame. Irritability in her responses...it has been present the whole time. (Thankfully violence, self-harm and suicidal threats are not part of this story.)

The emotional dysregulation has been consistent and pervasive. A few recent examples...

• I asked her if she wanted to watch a favorite show together, she declined. When I started watching without her, she had a fit, screamed at me & threw a door-slamming temper tantrum.

• At one point, we agreed on a home improvement project and signed a contract. The very next day, she yelled at me that it wasn't a good time to take on joint debt and demanded to cancel the order.

• I asked for the dates of a trip she was planning to subsequently be yelled at that I don't know what is going on with her health.
 
I don't know if I am right, maybe it isn't BPD.
 What I do know is that I am not alone in experiencing the type of emotional minefield that I have failed to navigate.

I don't know what this all means, I don't know where I am headed. What I do know is that information feels empowering and gives me hope. Not so much for my marriage but hope that I will be able to set better boundaries for myself and my children. I know I have stayed because of them, I have tried to protect them from what I didn't even understand. I hope I will be able to do even more now that I have a possible explanation...

The heartbreaking stories I have read on this forum have given me hope that I have found a place to talk about what is going on. A place to be encouraged and to encourage others. I look forward to getting to know more of you as we walk through life together.

My name is All_Out_of_Sync, thanks for listening to my story.

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[Ozzie101]

Hi and welcome, All_Out_of_Sync! I'm glad you decided to join in and I hope you'll keep posting.

You've been through a lot and on a road so many of us are familiar with. I do hope you'll keep sharing, in your threads and in those of others. Supporting each other and listening to each other is what we do. I know the support and understanding I've found here have been invaluable, as have the tools and advice more experienced members have shared.

Welcome again. We're so glad to have you here!  So, as you look at the future in your relationships with your wife and your children, what do you hope for? Are there goals you're working toward?

[All_Out_of_Sync]

Thank you Ozzie, happy to have found this place.   

My current goal is to end the isolation that has become the norm for me.  Over the years, I have avoided talking about what is going on out of a fear of making things worse.   Now I understand how that actually made it worse for me.  At this point...

• I am talking more to family and friends that understand there are problems (but I am not labeling it BPD, just general problems)

• I am continuing therapy on my own to have a safe place to process

• I am going to post/comment here for feedback, ideas & encouragement

• I have been looking for local Meet Up groups to join to rekindle hobbies that I have ignored/back-burnered over the years of young kids & relationship drama

• Working on healthy boundary setting, learning to detatch/disengage from the dysregulation

I guess my goal is to remember who I was before this nightmare started...

[Ozzie101]

That's great that you're reaching out to family and friends. Having a support system is SOO important. We can be that for you here, but having flesh and blood people around is valuable too.

Actually, all of the things on your list are terrific. The healthier you are, the better you'll be able to weather these storms and figure out what you want and how to achieve it. 

What can we help you with? If you had to pick one problem area that's the most vexing that you most want to improve, what would it be?

[MidLifCrysis1]

Hi Sync. I could've written much of your backstory myself - as could several others on this board, I believe.

I too have been married for 20 yrs - been together since age 17 - now 43. Have two girls ages 16 & 18, both getting ready to leave the house in August.

I have navigated a similar and often shifting minefield as you described; was equally (maybe moreso) at a loss for understanding the chaos until I also read Stop Walking on Eggshells (SWOE) and experienced the same flood-light response.

I'm not quite in the same place as you, though, as I do not know how to effectively "work on myself" since my marriage (my life really) is far more intimately and closely entwined with my spouse than many others, as far as I know. I think it is great that you have been able to find a somewhat clarifying checkpoint and are now able to make adjustments to help yourself - which, in turn, should also help your spouse. Keep on that path; even your description of it conveys an air of focus and positive direction. I would like to ask, though, how are you managing to execute on those steps - in relation to your SO? Does she not perceive the steps you've described as threatening and distancing and selfish? How do you approach them with her?

Lastly, I don't want to drag any attention away from Ozzie's comments/questions, as they are excellent. So, please do reply to this, especially, "What can we help you with? If you had to pick one problem area that's the most vexing that you most want to improve, what would it be?"

[All_Out_of_Sync]

Ozzie & MLC, thanks for the feedback and encouragement! 

I guess what I need most from the people here is a reality check.  Obviously what I say/write is my perspective, but is it rational?  Am I doing things that make my situation worse?   What can I do better?  Honestly, just talking to people that say, "Hey, I've experienced something like that, you are NOT crazy to have that reaction" will be helpful.

I'm not quite in the same place as you, though, as I do not know how to effectively "work on myself" since my marriage (my life really) is far more intimately and closely entwined with my spouse than many others, as far as I know.

MLC, keep your chin up, it is a marathon, not a sprint.

The last 3 years have been a very intentional but tough road of self-improvement.  It hasn't been easy or fast but had been worth it.   

I woke up to the fact that no one knew what was going on.  I had to be more intentional in developing friends that I could be vulnerable with.  I had to start putting up more healthy boundaries with my wife.  Given how isolated I had become, it was NOT easy.

As the first therapist I talked to told me, "Encourage her to work on herself too but in the end, if she won't do her own work, work on yourself and the worst case scenario is you end up in a better place regardless of her decision."

I sat my wife down and said, "I cannot do this any more, something has to change."  I told her I would start with what I could control, myself.  I encouraged her to do the same but didn't really see much of a commitment other than what felt like a smear campaign with various friends (flying monkeys) and regular complaints to me that I wasn't making enough changes... 

  I found a men's group to participate in as a general recovery ministry (mixed issues, group work format).   I dove into educating myself with books and online material.   About 6 months ago I started individual therapy.   Only recently have I been able to connect so many dots through BPD traits & characteristics.

I would like to ask, though, how are you managing to execute on those steps - in relation to your SO? Does she not perceive the steps you've described as threatening and distancing and selfish? How do you approach them with her?

My wife absolutely sees my boundaries and intentionality in personal growth & self-protection (emotionally) as threatening, distancing and selfish...at this point I do not care.  I know that sounds harsh but I spent far too many years trying to "manage" the situation by walking on eggshells.  The truth is, I could never love her well enough to overcome her own internal processes.  I am coming to understand there may be some faulty wiring at play.   :/

I am at a point where I know that I have tp be healthy before I can hope to have any impact on her.  Kind of like oxygen masks on an airplane, you have to put yours on first if you want any chance to survive or help others. 
 

[Ozzie101]

Reality check? We can definitely help you with that. I know in my case, I was (unintentionally) making things worse in my relationship and people here helped me to see that. It can make a big difference.

Good for you for realizing that you have to be healthy yourself in order to improve your relationship. That's a big step!

As far as tips and the role you play, details really help. Can you choose a recent blow-up and describe it: how did it start? who said/did what? how did the other respond? how was it resolved?

[All_Out_of_Sync]

Thank you Ozzie, I'll try my best to capture a recent episode of dysregulation. I'll expound on one of the examples above.

As I write I feel like there are some rabbit trails/context to add. I'll apologize up front for the length of the reply sorry! I hope this is helpful...

I have known for a while that at some point my wife would be going back to visit family this summet with our kids. This is an annual event. Given some really rough experiences visiting FOO over recent years, I told her at the beginning of this year, that I would not be coming with this summer.

For me these visits, summer or holidays, are just an amplified minefield and rarely, if ever, over the last two decades have we come away in a better space from FOO visits. Too many triggers, too much pain. For example, the last 3 times I stayed at my in-laws, she has said some pretty awful things. I made a personal boundary of refusing to stay overnight at their house any more.
She lashed out/dsyregulated each of the 3 times at night, also dissociated at least once, denying she said what she said. Last Christmas, she & the kids stayed with her parents, I stayed with my sister. When we spent the day together at her parent's, she lashed out when I walked in the door then ignored me for the next 10 hours. When I left after dinner, she broke down, hysterical that I was leaving...the feeling of 'I hate you, don't leave' literally in action! I hope the history/context helps.

Fast forward... She knew I wasn't coming with for the summer visit. I however didn't know when she was leaving. About a month before, I asked if she knew the dates she would be gone. She did not, could be a week, could be all month. I knew there was a time her FOO rented a VRBO, so I asked, "What week did your parent's rent the house?" I thought it was a more narrow question that might help me understand. She refused to tell me saying she did not know. (She had previously told me at the beginning of the year but neither of is put ot on our shared calendar.) I said, "that's ok, I'll just text your mom."

Whoops!

She told me her mother would not reply to my texts. I said, "Ok, well let me know when you find out." A short time later, she came out to talk more while I was sitting in the livingroom room while the kids were around, and asked in an elevated tone, "Why are you being so aggressive about the trip? Why do you need to know?" I told her I was trying to understand what the summer looks like. (After all, they are my kids too!)

My wife asked, "Does it matter to you if I am gone on my birthday?" It was a loaded question but the truth was, she was planning the trip and if she was not with me but with her FOO for her birthday, it wouldn't bother me. Her birthday, her choice. I was trying to give her flexibility to travel when needed. I replied, "No." The one word answer didn't help. :/

Next she asked, "Does it matter if we are back for our anniversary?" Again, I simply said, "No." Truthfully for me, two decades of anniversaries have just been an annual reminder of how long and terrible my marriage is, truthfully, it didn't matter to me. It is nothing more than a specific day that I know will just generate more pain for both of us at this point.

I asked what her own preferences were in leaving or coming back. She responded that she wants to "be with people that love and care about her on her birthday. If being here means more pain, I don't want to be here." I acknowledged I could not guarantee how she would experience her birthday here and if she felt more comfortable being with her FOO, I was ok with that.

(She didn't appear to take that message away from our exchange as I later found out she told my friend, "Sync doesn't WANT me here for my birthday." The amount of character assassination I experience with friends is extraordinary painful for me. I know I only have the opportunity to defend myself to others a fraction of the time and often have no idea what is being said about me. I have gotten to the point that I just simply ask my friends to judge me on the behavior & character they see themselves. Several of them are becoming aware of what is going on in general, I haven't told them my thoughts about a PD though.)

The conversation devolved, in front of our kids and she started yelling at me. When I said, "This isn't appropriate, please stop yelling, we can discuss it more later." She lashed out yelling louder, "It is important for the kids to see how you treat me!" I tried to disengage but she continued. She told me I don't know what is going on with her health and impacting her plans. I replied, "You are right, I don't. If you have something going on, how would I know if you haven't told me?" Finally, in a rage, she stormed out of the room yelling that "Now is not the time to take on joint debt, cancel the home improvement project contract!" (The day before we had agreed to something together and signed a contract.)

I never came back to the conversation, instead I waited and waited and waited...

The weekend before the trip, my wife said, "the earliest I'll leave is Tuesday, we will be back in 3 weeks." She would be gone for her birthday. I thanked her for letting me know. She asked if I wanted to celebrate her birthday before she left, I replied, "that seems like a loaded question." She explained the kids didn't like the idea of not being together on her birthday. I said we would do something to celebrate before they left (and we did).

The next day she said, "actually we're leaving tomorrow." A day early. I simply said ok and left it at that. Honestly, I am just glad to have a break and some down time. Space to recharge emotionally...

Not sure if that is too much information but that is one of the most recent episodes. Thank you for taking the time to read, would love your thoughts

Sync

[All_Out_of_Sync]

I asked what her own preferences were in leaving or coming back.

One other thing, she told me her preference, "would be to NEVER come back" (i.e. home to me).

During our last conversation, a few days before she actually left, she denied saying that.

I have learned to not push the point and instead said, "Thank you for clarifying that is not actually your preference because i recieved a very different message before."

She then accused me of being condescending...ugh, I just can't win!

[Ozzie101]

Thank you for the detail. It's incredibly frustrating and baffling, isn't it?

I know you've done a lot of reading on BPD so you have some knowledge of how their minds work. Their overactive sense of shame. Their fears of abandonment. It takes some time and effort but it helps to put that knowledge to work when dealing with a situation like this.

It sounds like your W likes to test you. My H did that with me (and with others). Those questions about her birthday and your anniversary are very familiar to me. It sounds to me like what she was wanting to hear was "I really want you to be here with me on your birthday." And what she heard (even if it's not what you said) was "I don't care about you and don't care if you're here or not."

One of the keys to a relationship with a pwBPD is communication. It takes a whole different set of tools to communicate effectively. For one thing, you have to really listen to what they're saying and truly hear what they're saying. Often times, what they seem to be upset about or what they seem to be talking about isn't what's actually bothering them.

Here's an article I found particularly helpful. Have you seen it?
https://bpdfamily.com/content/communication-skills-dont-be-invalidating

Looking back on the exchange, is there anything you'd do or say differently?

[All_Out_of_Sync]

The sense of shame piece is the biggest part of the 20 year puzzle.  Reading Brene Brown's work clicked the lightbulb on in a big way for me to truly start understanding how everything, and I do mean EVERYTHING, I was doing was being translated through a lens of shame, blame and judgement.  Heartbreaking really when we as non's are trying to help clear the air, value our partners and move forward WITH them but it is always taken as AGAINST the pwBPD. 

In terms of doimg differently, I am struggling.  Currently I am deciding if I need to detatch as I did or more so or if i just need to engage differently.

20 years of "trying differently & hoping for better" has lead to A LOT of pain for me.

Battling hopelessness in a big way for myself but I did read through the "Success Story" thread...maybe there is hope?

Appreciate your reply Ozzie, thanks!

[All_Out_of_Sync]

Here's an article I found particularly helpful. Have you seen it?
https://bpdfamily.com/content/communication-skills-dont-be-invalidating

I missed this one, thanks for pointing it out! I think this will help me get my arms around the process of validating feelings but not excusing behavior.  Thanks!

[Ozzie101]

I really do understand your frustration. In my relationship, my H constantly accused me of not being "helpful" even though I felt like I was running myself ragged trying to help. He said I didn't really love him when I felt like I was doing everything possible to show and prove my love. Finding BPD helped immensely because I saw it wasn't me and that I needed to change my approach if I wanted to make things better. Validation was a BIG one.

Currently I am deciding if I need to detatch as I did or more so or if i just need to engage differently.

Just curious about what you mean by "detach"? The thing is, if you want your relationship to continue and improve, detaching isn't the answer. It's a natural instinct. I started to do it when H was in his bad phase. But others here pointed out to me that, if anything, my detachment would make things worse (since he'd be able to pick up on it and it would trigger abandonment, shame, etc.).

Instead, during the calm times, I worked to build more of a connection. I reached out more. I affirmed more. I was more physically affectionate. What that did was build up a foundation of trust and security and love so that the bad times were less rocky.

Validation and other methods like SET (Support Empathy Truth) don't always work when the pwBPD is in meltdown mode. But they can be very handy at all other times and by using them then, again, you're building a stronger foundation.

Do you have any ideas on how you might engage differently? What other methods have you tried?

[All_Out_of_Sync]

Finding BPD helped immensely because I saw it wasn't me and that I needed to change my approach if I wanted to make things better. Validation was a BIG one.

I agree, finding BPD as a possible answer has been immensely helpful in allowing me to begin to wrap my mind around what has been going on.

Validation, although I understand it in an intellectual sense, bothers me on some level. There is a part of me that resists the idea that it is my responsibility to manage another person's inability to function in an appropriate manner. Like I said, I am new to this and need some time to process/incorporate but...

Just curious about what you mean by "detach"? The thing is, if you want your relationship to continue and improve, detaching isn't the answer. It's a natural instinct. I started to do it when H was in his bad phase. But others here pointed out to me that, if anything, my detachment would make things worse (since he'd be able to pick up on it and it would trigger abandonment, shame, etc.).

I hesitate writing this but the truth is, I got married to have a partner, not to babysit someone's emotional dysregulation. I have stuck it out for two decades, through some pretty gnarly sickness in addition to the emotional roller coaster, I just don't know if I can make it work if I have to be the one to manage her dysregulation.

I feel guilty even writing that.

I just know that at every turn, I again and again run head first into the reality that this situation is not changing. Who knows, maybe this time is different but as my T told me last time we spoke, even if I learned DBT skills, "You can't DBT someone else."

As for periods of calm, there are none. We are in a recent state of any interaction deeper than the most surface level, result in a new episode of dysregulation and contention. I struggle with knowing what is best for my children, living in this dysfunction and trying to change it or separation.

I will tell you I have more hope than I have in a VERY LONG TIME, mostly because of this board.

Do you have any ideas on how you might engage differently? What other methods have you tried?

The good news is I have a few weeks of quiet to figure this part out with her & the kids gone. I have a stack of BPD books to read through and put a game plan together before she returns.

I'll be rereading the Validation chapters several more times for sure!

[Ozzie101]

I understand your reservations about validation. I had the same gut response. But the thing is, it's NOT your responsibility to manage her. That's her responsibility. Validation isn't about managing her. It's not about control or manipulation. It's about a stronger communication style that will help you both (and can actually help you in all other relationships as well). It's not really about changing her. It's about changing you and making you stronger and healthier so you can deal with your situation. Does that make sense?

I feel guilty even writing that.

You'd be surprised how many of us here (including yours truly) have written or at least thought that very thing. This is a safe space. No guilt here.

Your feelings of frustration are perfectly normal.

I will tell you that it is possible for positive change to occur. But it takes patience and hard work -- and your W's willingness to do her share. That's by no means a guarantee, I know.

You need to focus on your own needs. Your strength. Your wants. You have a good plan: make the most of this time apart. Do your reading. Do a lot of thinking. Practice self-care. That can really help you determine what is the best, right thing for yourself and your children.

And keep posting here so we can know what's going on and how we might be able to help.

You're not alone.

[LoneRanger307]

I hesitate writing this but the truth is, I got married to have a partner, not to babysit someone's emotional dysregulation. I have stuck it out for two decades, through some pretty gnarly sickness in addition to the emotional roller coaster, I just don't know if I can make it work if I have to be the one to manage her dysregulation.

I feel guilty even writing that.

I relate to what you are saying here SO MUCH. I want a partner who is my equal, not someone who is dependent on me. (Or worse, manipulate me.) I want someone I can rely on just as much as they rely on me. I want someone who can manage their own responsibilities without me looking over their shoulder like a parent. I think this is a totally normal desire. It's ok not to want to be someone's caretaker. Some people might choose that for themselves, but its not the only choice to make and there's nothing wrong with us (morally or otherwise) for choosing differently.

I also want to just chime in re: Self-Care and Finding Yourself. Yes! I've also been looking for meetup groups to join and seeking to rebuild old friendships. I've been thinking about the things I enjoyed when I was younger or the activities I enjoyed with my partner and seeking ways to do them again, on my own. Its hard to find the time with work and kids, but its possible to build that space into my schedule. Today I actually took the day off work to nap and watch TV--self care time. I feel so guilty doing this, but I'm learning to realize that is part of my codependency. Its perfectly normal to take time to refuel my own battery and balance out my responsibilities with down time. In fact, it's absolutely necessary.

[All_Out_of_Sync]

Thank you Ozzie, your kind words of encouragement are very, VERY helpful. I spent WAY TOO long thinking I was alone in experiencing this.  

Thanks for validating my feeling of guilt.

I will tell you that it is possible for positive change to occur. But it takes patience and hard work -- and your W's willingness to do her share. That's by no means a guarantee, I know.

And here is the crux of the problem. My W says she "stumbled across" my Amazon browsing history. (I KNOW I was logged out at home because I have had suspicions for years that she snoops on personal things on our computer.)

Of course, it was chock full of personality disorder books with a heavy emphasis on NPD & BPD. Given what I can assume was the shame of feeling labeled "mentally ill" she dysregulated and demanded to know if that was what my therapist had told me was wrong. I made the mistake of explaining no, my T has never given me a book suggestion. I had come across the various books on my own.

She wanted to know what I diagnosed her with. I told her that given I am not a mental health professional, I could not do that. I simply told her that there we some helpful things I had read and some that were not helpful. Needless to say that did little to calm her down. At that point she attempted to cut me out of an activity with our kids but I refused to allow that and participated in the previously planned family event.

During a follow up conversation she very clearly told me that she does not fit ANY of the characteristics of BPD and had talked to mental health professionals that agreed. I said ok and did not allow myself to get sucked into the conversation.

So, as you can see, my undiagnosed wife is VERY resistant to the idea that her behavior or emotional state are dysregulating. That is a large portion of where my doubt and hopelessness comes from.

Lone ranger, thanks for chiming in. Yes, take care of yourself and enjoy the down time!  

Thanks,
Sync

[Ozzie101]

That's why we generally recommend not letting a pwBPD know about our suspicions. It rarely goes over well! Your wife's reaction was pretty typical, actually, and you're probably right in pegging it as a shame reaction.

Just out of curiosity, do you clear your browser history/cache/cookies, etc. after you've been on this site or doing other mental health research? If you don't, it's a good idea to start. That can limit incidents like the one you had.

It sounds like you handled it well, though, refusing to get sucked in and not allowing her to shut you out.

We've got some good articles on therapy linked at the top of the page. Have you given them a look?

[All_Out_of_Sync]

Ozzie,
It is helpful to hear your perspective on her reaction and how I handled the interrogation.  I have to admit I was feeling a little panicky in the moment!

I am fairly careful overall. I have never used our home computer for this site or research. I only use my phone (password protected and in a browser using secret mode) or my computer at work (she has zero ability to access my work email or machine). My W only had to guess a few generic passwords I typically use. That is my fault, lesson learned. :/ I went through and changed all my passwords after the Amazon thing happened.

Yes, I have looked through the article on therapy. I will have to put some time in using the new tools (no JADE, SET-UP, DEAR etc...) to build trust before I can make that kind of move back towards therapy again. I do need to watch the video on that link after work...

I finished reading, making notes and highlighting Loving Someone w/BPD and started Talking to a Loved One w/BPD. Lots of good stuff to soak in during this down time I've got!

Thanks for all of your encouragement.  I hope all is well with your own situation!
Sync

[Ozzie101]

Glad to hear it, Sync!

Thank you for asking. My situation is actually pretty solid right now.

My H (undiagnosed) was VERY resistant to the idea of therapy -- didn't even want me to go solo so I had to sneak around. He, too, was one to blame everyone else (mainly me) for his problems.

However, I am very fortunate in that he did finally seek out some therapy for himself. It was anger management, not DBT, but he found a therapist he clicked with. At around the same time, I finally hit my limit and made it clear to him the extent of our problems. He was horrified. He buckled down on the therapy. He apologized profusely. He made real and genuine attempts at change.

That was about 5 months ago. He still has episodes and I still see problems (mainly related to his work) but he's no longer using me as his target/emotional punching bag. We've managed to get on much stronger footing and a lot of that is from tools I learned here about communication, listening, building that connection, etc.

We both had to do a lot of work. And, I realize, 5 months isn't that long in the grand scheme. He could still backslide, big time. I just have to stay vigilant. And I have a lot of work still to do on myself. But I'm hopeful.

I was utterly despondent. I'd disconnected from him (mostly). I felt hopeless. And yet, it turned around. We feel closer and more connected than we did even before he started dysregulating. So, there are still some bumps, but it's improved.

I say all this just to let you know that actually, things can improve. Surprising things can happen.

[All_Out_of_Sync]

Thank is incredible to hear! 

 Way to stick with it and do what you needed for yourself w/T.  So glad to hear there is hope for improvement 

[All_Out_of_Sync]

I posted this as a new message but maybe it makes more sense to continue this thread...

Well, I have enjoyed several weeks of quiet with my uBPDw & kids gone visiting family. It was a great time to recharge, my very own fortress of solitude! Sadly, that has all come to an end. 

Although I was hopeful some time apart would help settle things down, I was wrong. I had dinner ready when they got home last night, she refused to even sit down to eat as a family. 

Instead of getting drawn into a fight over eating with us, I tried to put SET to work and show support by simply saying, "Well, I am glad you made it home safely." (Long road trip to visit family.) That did nothing to move the needle; she barely spoke all night.

Before the trip she told me her preference was to never come back, I find myself wondering why she did...

This morning, I am finding myself incredibly frustrated. I do not want to get drawn into the typical cycle but I also cannot live with someone that cannot communicate on the most basic level. Do I have a conversation about not joining us to eat? Do I ask for her explanation? Will that just shame her and make things worse? 

Any thoughts?

[Ozzie101]

My instinct would be, if her mood is still black or gray, to not bring it up. Likely, it would trigger a shame response or some other form of dysregulation.

I'm sorry. These disappointments, even if they're relatively small, can hurt us.

My advice would be to remain open to her if she shows signs of wanting to talk or wanting affection. Try to maintain a normal demeanor. Ask the kids about the trip (not in a secretive "Did anything bad happen?" kind of way but with normal interest).

[Red5]

…Ask the kids about the trip (not in a secretive "Did anything bad happen?" kind of way but with normal interest).

I've found, over the years… not to be in a hurry for the 'de-brief'… as sooner or later, it will come out… all of it.

Be patient, and as Ozzie101 says…" remain open to her if she shows signs of wanting to talk or wanting affection...try to maintain a normal demeanor, "

The best thing we can do as non's… is to "go on living everyday" (GOLE).

The best medicine, antiseptic for this bpd 'haze'… is to live your life, hour to hour, day to day… week to week.

"Normality"… structure, go to work, pay the bills, shop for the groceries… pick up the kids from school, do fun things with them… make supper, get your rest, exercise… this is the best thing to do, don't sit around and wait for the person whom is borderline to "come out of it"… that is wasting your life : (

… hang in there Sync!

Kind Regards Red5

[All_Out_of_Sync]

Thanks Ozzie,

Probably good advice as her mood is definitely leaning towards black. I guess the hard part is knowing that for her, silence can last weeks to months. At least I have a place like this to talk things out.

[MidLifCrysis1]

Checking back in...I've been drowning in my own purgatory here and haven't been able to be involved on the board as I would like...

Sorry for your current state of affairs, Sync.

I guess we all have to keep hope in the semi-randomness of their swings for something like Oz recounted

I was utterly despondent. I'd disconnected from him (mostly). I felt hopeless. And yet, it turned around. We feel closer and more connected than we did even before he started dysregulating. So, there are still some bumps, but it's improved.

It is SO hard to try to use rational thinking to navigate an irrational landscape.

Red's advice about GOLE seems unrealistic to me, but then again, many people on here seem to have a very significant amount of separation in their day-to-day lives from their partners - I presume it is in place out of necessity, but I do not have any experience with this. I suppose, if you can manage it, it must be very helpful for psychic R&R.

I'm not even sure if I have a point or a message. I just felt like I wanted to participate. We all need