When you feel the effects but don't know the cause?

[Depression = 72% of members]

It's been a while since I've been on. I've spent the past few years trying to recognize, understand, accept, and set boundaries with my UBPD mother and enmeshed family. My wife and I see a therapist, I've read the usual books, and recently found a family member on my wife's side who has had to deal with the same thing with her own mother. But unfortunately last night reminded me it doesn't make me bulletproof.

Without going into details, my mom went off the rails against us last night because my wife dared to express some butthurt she had, that she otherwise would have said nothing about, but my mom outright asked her and initiated the dialogue. She turned aggressive immediately. This time we tried to use what we learned to respond as calmly and logically as possible, but it only fueled the fire. We eventually stopped responding altogether, which caused my mom to spiral even worse and even call us out on FaceBook with a passive aggressive turned aggressive post of a meme that she tagged us in along with the caption "Here you go, amen". I turned my phone off last night and had a nice flurry of texts when I turned it back on this morning. She's gone too far and at the moment I don't want her near me or my family. My wife says she is done with them no matter how this ends. I should add that to the outside world, my mom is the kind, sweet, generous Christian person that everyone loves. So we look like the bad/crazy people.

I'm back in crisis mode, and picked back up my latest book purchase "Toxic Parents: Overcoming Their Hurtful Legacy and Reclaiming Your Life" while trying to brace myself for the incoming barrage from my family (my dad has already sent the "You two are going to be the death of my wife, and I'm starting to think that's the goal"). This is made worse by the fact that both my parents are experiencing legitimate health problems right now, which really gives a big foothold for the guilt. And to be honest there is the fact that I don't call much and don't stay long for visits, but frankly with the way they make me feel I don't want to. I hate exposing myself to the guilt, fear, and obligation that both they and my golden child sister put on me.

So here's my rub... When I go through the checklists in Toxic Parents, I more than meet the criteria both for having toxic parents and enmeshed relationships (e.g., 9 out of 10 when 4 is sufficient). I'm 38 and scared to death of them and how they will react to anything they don't agree with. I never tell them how I truly feel about anything. My blood goes cold when I see their names on my phone. And yet, the book puts a lot of emphasis on what was done when I was a child. And I can't think of anything. I know I always felt I had to be obedient, and that I needed to suppress my own self. But I have no memory of true physical or emotional abuse (caveat is I'm from the Southern US where spankings are the norm, and I got my share). And it makes me question myself. I see the effects, but not the cause. And it's confusing me.

Does anyone else have the same problem? I don't know what to make of it.

[ProudDad12]

It's been a while since I've been on. I've spent the past few years trying to recognize, understand, accept, and set boundaries with my UBPD mother and enmeshed family. My wife and I see a therapist, I've read the usual books, and recently found a family member on my wife's side who has had to deal with the same thing with her own mother. But unfortunately last night reminded me it doesn't make me bulletproof.

Without going into details, my mom went off the rails against us last night because my wife dared to express some butthurt she had, that she otherwise would have said nothing about, but my mom outright asked her and initiated the dialogue. She turned aggressive immediately. This time we tried to use what we learned to respond as calmly and logically as possible, but it only fueled the fire. We eventually stopped responding altogether, which caused my mom to spiral even worse and even call us out on FaceBook with a passive aggressive turned aggressive post of a meme that she tagged us in along with the caption "Here you go, amen". I turned my phone off last night and had a nice flurry of texts when I turned it back on this morning. She's gone too far and at the moment I don't want her near me or my family. My wife says she is done with them no matter how this ends. I should add that to the outside world, my mom is the kind, sweet, generous Christian person that everyone loves. So we look like the bad/crazy people.

I'm back in crisis mode, and picked back up my latest book purchase "Toxic Parents: Overcoming Their Hurtful Legacy and Reclaiming Your Life" while trying to brace myself for the incoming barrage from my family (my dad has already sent the "You two are going to be the death of my wife, and I'm starting to think that's the goal"). This is made worse by the fact that both my parents are experiencing legitimate health problems right now, which really gives a big foothold for the guilt. And to be honest there is the fact that I don't call much and don't stay long for visits, but frankly with the way they make me feel I don't want to. I hate exposing myself to the guilt, fear, and obligation that both they and my golden child sister put on me.

So here's my rub... When I go through the checklists in Toxic Parents, I more than meet the criteria both for having toxic parents and enmeshed relationships (e.g., 9 out of 10 when 4 is sufficient). I'm 38 and scared to death of them and how they will react to anything they don't agree with. I never tell them how I truly feel about anything. My blood goes cold when I see their names on my phone. And yet, the book puts a lot of emphasis on what was done when I was a child. And I can't think of anything. I know I always felt I had to be obedient, and that I needed to suppress my own self. But I have no memory of true physical or emotional abuse (caveat is I'm from the Southern US where spankings are the norm, and I got my share). And it makes me question myself. I see the effects, but not the cause. And it's confusing me.

Does anyone else have the same problem? I don't know what to make of it.

[Harri]

Hi.  I am sorry this is still an ongoing issue for you.  It is so hard when the family turns against you and when they advertise it on facebook.

Have you thought about unfollowing your mom so you do not see what she posts?  There is little you can do to change her in that regard, but you certainly do not have to read it.  I think you can also untag yourself?  Would that help or even be an option for you?

As for not remembering abuse, it is hard to say if anything happened for sure from our end.  I am not familiar with the check list in that book either.  I think though, in general, that many of us here were slow to catch on to the fact that there was emotional abuse.  It can be extremely subtle.  Many of our members on this board ahve, after being here a while and talking and reading the material, discover there was in fact abuse.  Parentification is a big one for a lot of people and is, like I said, sometimes very hard to label as abuse.  Are you familiar with that term?  There is also emotional incest.  You might want to read through this:  Problematic parenting
And this
Topic: 8.03 | When the children of a BPD parent are at risk

See what you think.   

[BabySister]

Hi ProudDad12,
I can completely relate to your post. Toxic Parents, Wow! That brings back memories. I read that in my late teens. Sounds like you are taking the steps to take your life back. For myself, I've given WAAY too much of myself, my time, etc.

Years ago, I had taken space for myself away from my mother and brother, they lobbed so many guilt trips, said nasty things, all to control me, they didn't like that I was taking time for myself and separating myself from them.

Good for you turning off your phone. Try not to take the bait. One thing I've learned from a Family Support Group lately is my BPDB wants any attention from me, negative or positive, that' s what my BPDB will do. He'll lob a verbal grenade just to get a response from me.

I remember surprising my feelings all the time, I still do it and have to work hard to know what I'm feeling and be OK with it. Keep posting!

[drained1996]

I should add that to the outside world, my mom is the kind, sweet, generous Christian person that everyone loves. So we look like the bad/crazy people.

That to me sounds like you are projecting what you think others might think...I'd suggest to lighten that projection as many comprehend that facebook is not really reality.  And if an adult child is the butt of an outraged parent...and they put it out there...well  that speaks volumes more about them than you.  

I'm 38 and scared to death of them and how they will react to anything they don't agree with. I never tell them how I truly feel about anything. My blood goes cold when I see their names on my phone. And yet, the book puts a lot of emphasis on what was done when I was a child. And I can't think of anything. I know I always felt I had to be obedient, and that I needed to suppress my own self.

Read that quote.  Where is there any emotional health in those feelings of that relationship?  Sounds to me as if  you weren't allowed to have  your own feelings...sound right?  Also sounds like there's a chance you simply were never good enough...or if you were it was a fleeting moment in time.  You may also have been put in the position of feeling responsible for a parent's feelings at a very young age...which is not healthy.  Any of this resonate?  Just asking...as your story reminded me with my journey.  Certainly could be wrong.   

[ProudDad12]

Thanks everyone for the help.

Have you thought about unfollowing your mom so you do not see what she posts?  There is little you can do to change her in that regard, but you certainly do not have to read it.  I think you can also untag yourself?  Would that help or even be an option for you?

Well, my wife blocked and unfriended her. I typically stay off FB but leave my account open so I don't see this stuff regardless (was told by a friend about her post). So now I'm torn between deactivating my account altogether or let her continue doing this just to see how far she goes. Apparently she later untagged me after my wife unfriended her, but then last night posted a meme about cutting toxic people out of your life (without tagging me this time). So much irony in that, and yet it's just one more thing that makes me question things. Not to mention I can't see her actually doing that, as convenient as it would be, because she worships my 6 y/o daughter.

Parentification is a big one for a lot of people and is, like I said, sometimes very hard to label as abuse.  Are you familiar with that term?  There is also emotional incest.  You might want to read through this:  Problematic parenting
And this
Topic: 8.03 | When the children of a BPD parent are at risk

See what you think.  

I read through that, and it seems bits and pieces apply to me. I see glimmers but can't find one I completely fit into. The interesting part is my wife noted that the Pedestal part perfectly fits the relationship between my mom and my daughter. (Context: Only granddaughter; Says she shares an "old soul" bond with her; My sister once said she feels like she birthed her; Saying something to them about it was met with anger and how we should be grateful she has such loving family)

Good for you turning off your phone. Try not to take the bait. One thing I've learned from a Family Support Group lately is my BPDB wants any attention from me, negative or positive, that' s what my BPDB will do. He'll lob a verbal grenade just to get a response from me.

I remember surprising my feelings all the time, I still do it and have to work hard to know what I'm feeling and be OK with it. Keep posting!

Thanks. my wife and I both noted that this is new territory for us. We've never just "stopped responding" before, and as hard as it was for me to do (the unwarranted accusations she shoots at me are tough), it was interesting watching her spiral with anger, and helped show me that nothing I say is going to help. So the verbal grenade bit sounds dead on. It did help that although my therapist is out this week, he talked to me on the phone a bit. After getting a quick brief on the situation, reinforced the not responding, that my mom can't regulate her emotions, we're in a no win situation, and there is not a "**** thing we can do".

That to me sounds like you are projecting what you think others might think...I'd suggest to lighten that projection as many comprehend that facebook is not really reality.  And if an adult child is the butt of an outraged parent...and they put it out there...well  that speaks volumes more about them than you.  

I sure hope so. I come from a small Southern town, so it's usually like-minded people blinding jumping on the bandwagon when she posts stuff. Praying there is a majority that sees through it. I personally loathe most social media, but it does have real world consequences.

Read that quote.  Where is there any emotional health in those feelings of that relationship?  Sounds to me as if  you weren't allowed to have  your own feelings...sound right?  Also sounds like there's a chance you simply were never good enough...or if you were it was a fleeting moment in time.  You may also have been put in the position of feeling responsible for a parent's feelings at a very young age...which is not healthy.  Any of this resonate?  Just asking...as your story reminded me with my journey.  Certainly could be wrong.  

You're definitely not wrong. I've felt responsible for my mom's feelings. And that is something I can pin action to ("You're going to give your mom a heart attack." "Your mom is in the bathtub wailing; I'm ashamed of you!", etc.) The catch has always been since I didn't know better, I didn't notice. I did feel responsible. Not to take care of anyone (except for my siblings when my dad would take my mom to the hospital for something), but I did feel pressure to stay in line and be obedient. Since this all started, I've talked to a couple friends I've had since childhood, and it was interesting to hear their perspective. One said I was always uncomfortable with myself and blamed my mom for it, and that I was pressured to be the perfect kid. My other friend talked about how it used to be the joke that I couldn't come out and play until I vacuumed the living room. It's so weird. I feel the pressure but can't put my finger on it being applied beyond examples like the ones above. And yet I remember staying at friends houses overnight and dreading going home.

Another piece that is interesting is watching my wife interact with her mom. She once called her mom out for always putting her brother ahead of her her hole life. Her mom had no idea she was doing that, but amazingly it didn't turn into WWIII. She was butthurt by the accusation for a little bit and stepped away for an hour or two, but then came back with awareness, apologized, and has been making efforts to do better ever since. I just can't fathom that with my mom and couldn't believe it was a thing for normal people.

For context, this latest event started because my wife and I have noticed how my family never remembers or recognized our anniversary or her birthday, despite gushing recognition the morning of everyone else's. It's actually become a joke. My mom usually recognizes it a day later with a FB post. This year my wife didn't jump in and "like" it because she just didn't want to after watching the pattern for so long. But we had no intention of saying anything. So when my mom asked her if there was "Something she should know", my wife told her she wasn't going to say anything but didn't want to lie, so told her what we've observed and told her it stung. Then WWIII started, and everything we have done to her or them was unleashed on us.

Man it's hard. My wife says she's done with her and has no intention of seeing her again. That also means she doesn't want our children to see her anymore. I've been trying the approach of setting boundaries and limiting the relationship, but right now I don't want anything to do with her either. I feel awful for it, and I don't want to start using "nevers" in relation to the relationship. But don't know if maybe I should. Not to mention my mom typically outwardly works hard to be helpful and loving and generous, I just can't ignore the undercurrents. And it stinks knowing my siblings and dad will be in step with my mom, and will tell me they read the whole conversation and somehow WE are the toxic ones (we've shown it to multiple people who assured us otherwise). And my parent's health problems really up the guilt level.

Guess I better stop there before I start spiraling myself! Thanks again everyone for listening and helping.

[drained1996]

I feel the pressure but can't put my finger on it being applied beyond examples like the ones above. And yet I remember staying at friends houses overnight and dreading going home.

I'm going to take an educated guess and say if you really thought about it, you could come up with hundreds of other examples...it was particularly the recurring small things my mother said or did to me that over time simply eroded me as a person.  At 43 years of age, I finally understood that my mother emotionally abused me the majority of my life, and that my family enabled that to occur.  I played my part as the scapegoat very well...which was also unhealthy...but I didn't know any better...now I do. FOO is a touchy subject, but it's a necessary history to study in order to see why we are who we are, and what we can do in the future to better navigate the dynamic...if...continuing any relationship is the chosen path.  
Healthy boundaries and communication tools found on this site can help, as well as input from those that have or are walking in your shoes.  I too was from a small southern town, and my family was prominent in both the community and church.  The perfect picture of what a family should be...from any outsiders perspective.  You are not alone.    
I'll share that the most empowering thing I learned in my journey is that nobody has the ability to make us feel anything.  It's up to us on how we process and react to any stimulus be it an action, a communication a look, etc.  Keep posting, sharing is cathartic.  

[pursuingJoy]

Drained1996 and ProudDad12, you could both be describing my husband. Small southern town, perfect respected church-going family, BPD mom, and no memories of anything manipulative or abusive in his childhood. Since his dad died my husband has started to feel the full weight of expectation and desperate need from his mom but he insists she wasn’t like this when he was young. I do think his dad took the brunt of her need and abuse, however my husband exhibits many learned BPD behaviors. I’m inclined to agree that there are probably more instances from your childhood (it helps me to write things down as I remember them). Feelings are powerful indicators too. Maybe it will help to recall more times that you felt dread or sadness or guilt.

We are also navigating heavy guilt/fear/obligation as his mom is aging. There are a few really good discussions about aging parents here that might help alleviate some emotions and help you identify practical steps/resources.

From a fellow wife who is struggling to learn how to navigate her BPD MIL, kudos to you for working through your stuff with your moms. I know WWII and the resulting aftermath are tough on you, especially after a season of peace, taking responsibility for your own healing, setting boundaries, etc. I'm so happy that because of the work you're doing, you'll be a better father to your 6 yr old. Thanks for sharing and keep working together.

[LoveOnTheRocks]

Reading this thread was exhausting for me, because it hit so many of my hot spots.  Abusive (in cognito, because she and my dad lived at our church, and everyone loved her...BUT...) Mom always found fault with me, little things, every single time we got together.  My dad doesn't like me, because I always get into it with mom.  Funny thing, he became her victim once I moved out of their house and moved on, and I can see she wears him out and down (have to see them fight now every time we get together...he can't do anything wrong!).  The entire rest of my family has my mom as this matriarch figure who fixes all our meals and puts together all our family functions.  They have watched her belittle me and attack me for years, mentioned it to me that they see it, but if it ever came down to an open discussion within the family about it, noone would side with me...or even fess up that it's made them all uncomfortable over the years.
I am early 50s now.  In my early 40s, I had had enough of the BS.  I took her on, matriarch and all.  I became willing to let my entire family go in order to let her know that her abuse was enough and I wasn't going to accept it anymore.  I walked away.  While I was gone, I wrote her RAW letters telling her the facts about her abuse, what it had done to me...the whole 9 yards.  Over the years she degraded me in front of my family and all our friends.  I was active during my teen years, and not so great (but I wasnt on drugs, never got arrested...it wasn't that bad...actually, my thing was dating outside my race and since we were prominent and as everyone else here says, in the deep south, it was the worst thing in the world that I couldn't find myself a nice white man to settle down with!).  My dad was complicit in my mom's actions in that he ignored it every single time and essentially had (nor does he now) anything to do with me.  I was the hated child and he literally would walk out of the room when I walked into it, because my mom hated me and he loves her.  My brother on the other hand was godlike to them.  Mom worshipped (and still does) him and as a result, he was perfect, even though I had a very successful business and life going and they were still providing for my brother until his 40s...
Anyway...I was gone and let the rest of them go, too.  (was willing to).  It was hard and emotional for me, but I needed self respect and worse, I had begun to have actual issues leading up to every time we were to get together.  About 3 days before Thanksgiving and Christmas and any other get together, I would literally start stressing out about what she would do or say to me this time. This became prominent and my husband hated when I got like this...
At Christmas, I had spent almost the entire year letting her have it in my open and honest emails, and she didn't respond to any of them, but they showed up at our house to bring us gifts (my parents).  I think they missed my daughter most of all, but anyway...They asked me to come back to the family. It was tough for all of us for a while, but I could see that my mom was working on herself.  She clearly was seeing a therapist of some kind, because she made a lot of changes in how she dealt with me.  She would slip up sometimes, but really, she obviously was working on doing better with me, and it was showing.  The worst in this is she was abusing my dad still, and he was getting really fed up with it.  He started fighting back and so every time we got together, they would have these huge blowups.  I would get up and walk out of the room when that went on, and I did not "support her" which was something she always did...sought others nearby to agree with her criticisms of whomever she was criticizing.  So, she eventually started noticing how I would roll my eyes and get up and walk out of the room, so she even got better with my dad...
Things are a lot better with her now.  There are still some underlying feelings and small things really set me off and I have to work through them on my own, but I do a lot better with her.  One thing that I haven't gotten through is how I feel about the rest of my family.  I never did "return" to them...they were complicit in this for my entire life and they also gossip between themselves about each other, which I hate...so I avoid them and when we get together at holidays, and the gossip (bad talking) starts, I am obvious when I either pointedly bring the subject back to them or even get up and go do something else...point is, they can have it, but I want no part of it...I will never be really close to any of them, I dont think, but I've been able to have a happy medium with them all now...and can even enjoy seeing them for a couple of days at a time.

Drained, until you know for certain what YOU want to do with your family, perhaps you don't want to talk to your wife about walking away.  Since she wants to do that, I think she will push you towards that.  Get a plan first, or at least tell her you are concerned that she will put pressure on you, and you need the freedom to make this decision on your own since this is your bio family...I really appreciated that my husband could see the abuses over the years, and tell me it was cruel, but still allow me to decide how I wanted to handle it.  When I announced WE were walking away from them, he was sad, because he really loves our dynamic family (they aren't bad all the time...they're really great on another side)...and we all do fun stuff...and have fun and good laughs...but, he supported my decision, stood by me, and we walked away.  Then, when I decided I would try to work with them and see what happened, he was with me again...and we returned to them as a family.

Preserve that relationship with your wife.  Build on it, hold on to it and keep it happy and healthy and abuse free...my husband is my rock and we are like peas in a pod...Having him by my side was the best thing for me.  He stood by me and allowed me to grieve and be angry and be upset and be determined...and all that emotional stuff that needed to happen for me to get my dignity and self respect back.

[ProudDad12]

I'm going to take an educated guess and say if you really thought about it, you could come up with hundreds of other examples...it was particularly the recurring small things my mother said or did to me that over time simply eroded me as a person.

You're probably right. Another aspect I've considered is that I was so good at playing the part (both my siblings used to accuse me of being the perfect one and the favorite) that it all became second nature, and I didn't really start feeling the "control" until I met my wife and began having reasons to start exerting my independence and start setting boundaries (however weak and unconscious they were at the time). Before then, it was just me and I was well versed in going along to get along.

I'll share that the most empowering thing I learned in my journey is that nobody has the ability to make us feel anything.  It's up to us on how we process and react to any stimulus be it an action, a communication a look, etc.  Keep posting, sharing is cathartic.  

This is one I struggle with; I know full well it's true, but have a lot of trouble forcing it into practice. It's so bad that even in times of "peace" with my family, despite having a good job, great wife, and two great kids, I was only to allow myself to be happy in the times that I knew my mom was happy (i.e., Monday after appeasing them with a weekend trip, etc.). It's really frustrating, I'm trying my best to "make a decision" to allow myself to be happy and fully appreciate what I have, but it just won't connect! I typically spend most of my time with a touch of sadness that follows me, rooted in my parents' emotional well being and their perception of how good or awful of a child I'm being at the time.

Sharing is definitely cathartic, and helps immensely hearing similar experiences. This is something I don't feel like many people can relate to. I'm really appreciating the help.

I’m inclined to agree that there are probably more instances from your childhood (it helps me to write things down as I remember them). Feelings are powerful indicators too. Maybe it will help to recall more times that you felt dread or sadness or guilt.

I'll try that, thanks.

From a fellow wife who is struggling to learn how to navigate her BPD MIL, kudos to you for working through your stuff with your moms. I know WWII and the resulting aftermath are tough on you, especially after a season of peace, taking responsibility for your own healing, setting boundaries, etc. I'm so happy that because of the work you're doing, you'll be a better father to your 6 yr old. Thanks for sharing and keep working together.

I really appreciate that, it meant a lot!

Preserve that relationship with your wife.  Build on it, hold on to it and keep it happy and healthy and abuse free...my husband is my rock and we are like peas in a pod...Having him by my side was the best thing for me.  He stood by me and allowed me to grieve and be angry and be upset and be determined...and all that emotional stuff that needed to happen for me to get my dignity and self respect back.

I definitely will, thank you. I'm grateful for her because she stuck with me for 10 years before I started seeing things for what they were. Now she's trying to help me as I'm on my 3rd year of trying to make things better for us. As it is, we're both somewhat convinced the catalyst for change (read: increased friction early on) was the fact that while both my siblings married like minded Southern people, I was the outlier who married a Jersey Girl (I was also the first sibling to get married and thus introduce someone who took away one of my mom's children).

Thanks everyone for sharing their experiences. It really helps.

So for an update on the current situation, no more texts or bombardments (YET, I'm waiting with high anxiety), but I'm told she's still taking cheap shots on Facebook. Latest being a meme about calling your mom and dad while you still can, and talk to them as long as they'll listen. That's such a simple one but it hurts the most, being as that's the one thing I know for a fact I could do better on my end, ignoring the fact that I typically don't call due to the anxiety before and feeling like crap afterwards from the FOG.

[Notwendy]

 I should add that to the outside world, my mom is the kind, sweet, generous Christian person that everyone loves. So we look like the bad/crazy people.

It's difficult but I have gotten used to the fact that people in my mother's circle think her children, especially me as I am her scapegoat, are horrible kids. They have no clue what this "sweet lady" is like with us when nobody is looking.

My father was her enabler and wrote things like your father wrote you. One sad one when I began to have boundaries was " I wish we could be a happy family again". Yes, you both were quite happy when I had no boundaries with her and she was abusive to me. How is that a happy family?

This was especially difficult when my father was ill and eventually passed away. My mother is elderly. I am not the kind of person who didn't want to be hands on with helping my parents. I wanted to do it and tried. But in their world this meant allowing her to be abusive to me.

I basically had to let truth stand for itself. I needed to be a mom to my kids and do the best thing for them ( which was to have boundaries with BPD mom). I try  to live according to my own ethical standards. What others think of me doesn't change that. I believe there's a higher judge, of me, and of her. I have to stay focused on that. Ultimately I think you have to decide on your priorities ( your wife and kids) and be the best dad, husband, and human being you can, and let other's think what they think.

I may not post on FB but I'd keep an eye on the smear campaign so you know what's being said about you and can take action if it is particularly damaging. I hope not.

[pursuingJoy]

This was especially difficult when my father was ill and eventually passed away. My mother is elderly. I am not the kind of person who didn't want to be hands on with helping my parents. I wanted to do it and tried. But in their world this meant allowing her to be abusive to me.

I believe there's a higher judge, of me, and of her. I have to stay focused on that.

I know there was soul searching, tears and hard work that led to this point, but I love how you stated your truth so simply and succinctly. Thank you.

[ProudDad12]

It's difficult but I have gotten used to the fact that people in my mother's circle think her children, especially me as I am her scapegoat, are horrible kids. They have no clue what this "sweet lady" is like with us when nobody is looking.

I'm trying to be at peace with this fact myself. In my case, my siblings are still "good" children though. They both live in town < 5 minutes away from her (we are 2 hours), they rely on her for child care or emotional support (and in some cases financial). Point being, they need her so she is happy with them.

I may not post on FB but I'd keep an eye on the smear campaign so you know what's being said about you and can take action if it is particularly damaging. I hope not.

It's really strange to me that it's even happening. As her "perfect child", to this day she still reminds me of how others always told her how well behaved I was, how mature I was (e.g., looking adults in the eyes when they talked to me as a kid/teen, etc.). So I think she saw me as an accomplishment, a public point of pride. I'm surprised that she's now making efforts to tarnish that, whether she realizes it or not. Part of me is grieving over the idea of losing the upstanding image of myself I managed to create in my hometown, but I see it as the price I have to pay in this fight for my nuclear family's well being. Not to mention I felt like it put me in a box and was stifling me.

Now that I've tried my best to leave and cleave, set boundaries, support my wife in voicing issues, etc., I think something finally clicked with her, and I guess she doesn't mind other people knowing or thinking I'm not this great person she wanted to present to the world of 10,000 people in my hometown.

Side note, it's still difficult being told that we're the toxic ones, that we're not living in reality, that we're the problem, that my wife has been manipulative, etc. It's a constant battle inside myself for clarity. Despite what my mom probably thinks at this point, I take my faith seriously, and I've had to pray hard for some sign, some message, something to let me know I'm not what my mom says I am. That I'm not delusional. For some reason, no amount of third parties reading the text messages and giving me feedback has been able to suppress whatever it is inside me sabotaging my emotional well being. I've always been the type that I can be stubborn and dig in hard when I believe in something. Unfortunately that requires solid ground on which to stand, and I feel like I keep trying to step into the mud.

I agree with pursuingJoy, you stated it well. I love my parents dearly. I want the best for them. I just don't know if it is possible to live that truth without living in fear of them. And I'm ashamed to use the word fear, but I can't think of a better one. The guilt reduces me to a little boy in the corner, and my parents know exactly how to invoke it. And my sibling's selective blindness to it and support of my parents just puts the final nails in the coffin.

Despite support from my wife, friends, therapist, etc., I ultimately just get to the point of praying and trying my best to trust this will pass.

[Harri]

Side note, it's still difficult being told that we're the toxic ones, that we're not living in reality, that we're the problem, that my wife has been manipulative, etc. It's a constant battle inside myself for clarity. Despite what my mom probably thinks at this point, I take my faith seriously, and I've had to pray hard for some sign, some message, something to let me know I'm not what my mom says I am. That I'm not delusional. For some reason, no amount of third parties reading the text messages and giving me feedback has been able to suppress whatever it is inside me sabotaging my emotional well being. I've always been the type that I can be stubborn and dig in hard when I believe in something. Unfortunately that requires solid ground on which to stand, and I feel like I keep trying to step into the mud.

This is quite a 'side note'!     This speaks to the need for self-differentiation.  So many of us struggle with that, with breaking free from our parent(s) (sibling, friends) opinions and beliefs to define who we are at our core.  We can often detach from this on an intellectual level but emotionally it is a whole different thing and so much harder.   It is possible though.  It is possible to get to the point where their opinion and definition of you and who you are and how it can change in an instant no longer has the ability to bring you back to the scared little boy you were.  Their words may hurt and it won't feel good or nice, but it does not have to decimate you.   


You can read more about differentiation here: https://thebowencenter.org/theory/

excerpt: 
Often people feel distant or disconnected from their families, but this is more feeling than fact. Families so profoundly affect their members’ thoughts, feelings, and actions that it often seems as if people are living under the same “emotional skin.” People solicit each other’s attention, approval, and support and react to each other’s needs, expectations, and upsets. The connectedness and reactivity make the functioning of family members interdependent. A change in one person’s functioning is predictably followed by reciprocal changes in the functioning of others.

Understanding differentiation, family systems, boundaries and how everything can work together is a good way to work towards differentiation.  See what you think and then we can talk about it if you want.

 

[ProudDad12]

This is quite a 'side note'!     This speaks to the need for self-differentiation.  So many of us struggle with that, with breaking free from our parent(s) (sibling, friends) opinions and beliefs to define who we are at our core.  We can often detach from this on an intellectual level but emotionally it is a whole different thing and so much harder.   It is possible though.  It is possible to get to the point where their opinion and definition of you and who you are and how it can change in an instant no longer has the ability to bring you back to the scared little boy you were.  Their words may hurt and it won't feel good or nice, but it does not have to decimate you.  

Haha, yeah, I can get carried away sharing this stuff! I've definitely seen improvement on my letting their definition of me define me over the past few years. The hard part these days is the "change in an instant" part you mentioned ("self absorbed", "toxic", "not raised this way", etc.). It doesn't happen very often, but it's typically reserved for the rare times we drop the happy faces long enough to be honest about something that bothers us.

Often people feel distant or disconnected from their families, but this is more feeling than fact. Families so profoundly affect their members’ thoughts, feelings, and actions that it often seems as if people are living under the same “emotional skin.” People solicit each other’s attention, approval, and support and react to each other’s needs, expectations, and upsets. The connectedness and reactivity make the functioning of family members interdependent. A change in one person’s functioning is predictably followed by reciprocal changes in the functioning of others.

Understanding differentiation, family systems, boundaries and how everything can work together is a good way to work towards differentiation.  See what you think and then we can talk about it if you want.

 

That pretty much sounds like my family. Before I learned terms like enmeshment, I used to joke about the "Hive Mind". In fact, there is a ongoing iMessage thread between all of us (parents, my siblings, and our spouses), and the trend is typically to share the same disgust, gushing, excitement, or whatever is applicable to the day's topic at hand. In fact, one recurring point of contention they bring to us is that we rarely partake in the messaging. They've made group text messaging an obligation (oh and you better reply to one on one messages in 20 minute or less or things start to escalate!). Anyway, I'm digressing from the enmeshment, but yes, that excerpt seems to fit. Though my parents would just dismiss it as saying we are a tight knit family (though I'm using "we" pretty liberally at this point).

Another side note (but actual one this time!) my wife showed the text chain from the other day to a co-worker today who's background also is in psychology. 30 seconds in her remark was "She's crazy!", and this was before she got to the good parts. And also said she didn't see where we did anything wrong. So one more tick-mark in trying to assure myself I'M not the toxic one!

[Notwendy]

Thank you pursuing joy- thank you, yes, a lot of soul searching and tears. Time has helped, getting some emotional distance from it, but I think the loss of a parent is a loss we adjust to, but don't forget.

As her "perfect child", to this day she still reminds me of how others always told her how well behaved I was, how mature I was (e.g., looking adults in the eyes when they talked to me as a kid/teen, etc.). So I think she saw me as an accomplishment, a public point of pride.

I think it is sometimes harder for the golden child to differentiate from the BPD parent. I know it was harder for the GC in my family. As kids, we crave approval and validation from a parent, and it feels good to have this. But the GC in my family also realizes that the being good served to validate BPD mom.

[madeline7]

I don't have any memory of physical or emotional abuse as a child. But I do remember my Mom giving all of us the silent treatment for 3 days at a time. And memories of Mom being overly critical, angry, rigid and crisis oriented. As a teenager, her mood dysregulation seemed to intensify, and as a young adult, she went off the rails. I suppose the silent treatment is a form of emotional abuse, but I didn't "feel" traumatized until I was an older teen/young adult. I moved across the country, but now that my Mom is elderly and widowed, she has moved to my home town to be closer to me and my siblings. Now that I am doing the hard work to understand the toxic BPD dynamics, I have come to realize that there was emotional abuse all along. The past 4 years have been so hard on me, so many emotional flashbacks, so much anxiety, but finally feeling strong enough to establish better boundaries. Due to my Mom's age, I am hoping that I can tolerate LC, but I will no longer tolerate abuse. It is very interesting to see how there are many like us that don't have those early memories. I also am very careful about how much I tell my friends, as I found that most people don't understand how damaging emotional abuse is. They also don't see my Mom in her rages, she saves that for our eyes only.

[Harri]

The hard part these days is the "change in an instant" part you mentioned ("self absorbed", "toxic", "not raised this way", etc.). It doesn't happen very often, but it's typically reserved for the rare times we drop the happy faces long enough to be honest about something that bothers us.

So you can see how this 'change in an instant' reaction is tied to you changing your role and not coming to heel so to speak.  She/they want your family to go back to its resting state where everyone moves as a unit and things stay calm (sort of).  By doing your own thing and changing your ways, it throws everyone off kilter and the whole system gets messed up. 

In fact, one recurring point of contention they bring to us is that we rarely partake in the messaging. They've made group text messaging an obligation (oh and you better reply to one on one messages in 20 minute or less or things start to escalate!)

Good for staying out of it.  When you say things escalate, what happens?  How do you respond?

[ProudDad12]

I think it is sometimes harder for the golden child to differentiate from the BPD parent. I know it was harder for the GC in my family. As kids, we crave approval and validation from a parent, and it feels good to have this. But the GC in my family also realizes that the being good served to validate BPD mom.

Yeah, it's definitely been rough on this end. Think I've firmly found my place as scapegoat now, ceding GC to my sister.

... but I will no longer tolerate abuse. It is very interesting to see how there are many like us that don't have those early memories. I also am very careful about how much I tell my friends, as I found that most people don't understand how damaging emotional abuse is. They also don't see my Mom in her rages, she saves that for our eyes only.

Don't think we ever got the silent treatment, but I definitely felt the crisis oriented part. Like you, I'm not sure anyone else has seen one of my mom's rages. They are admittedly rare, but then again we were good at navigating the eggshells.

I actually took the "no longer tolerate abuse" stand today. It did not go over well. My mom re-initiated contact for the first time since Sunday, with a particular anger over my wife defriending her after her antics on Sunday (using the words "that wife of yours"), talking about how people were like "WTH" on Monday morning (as if being defriended on FB is a public thing), and ending it in "NOT IN A MILLION YEARS". Well I finally responded, trying to make as short and succinct message as I could and making it clear it would be my only one. I told her she went too far and after what she did, I didn't blame my wife. I told her my priority is the people under my roof, and I can't let them be spoken to that way. I told her I loved her and was praying for the various medical things, but those were not excuses to treat us the way she did.

Obviously it didn't go over well. She blasted text after text, talking about how I obviously understand and agree with this "alien Yankee thinking", sending several more texts talking about how it's just alien to her and her family. Never acknowledging what she did. She then reminded me that she has been "nothing but good to YOU AND YOUR WIFE!" (Which she is most of the time, when we're successful navigating her while trying to maintain our boundaries)

Then she continued, asking me what my grandparents would think of this. Telling me to come back to my roots and stop this "liberal nonsense" (for the record I'm a frustrated conservative sitting close to the middle, so please don't judge me!). It went on and on.

And after all that, she pulled out the big guns... telling me she misses my daughter, using a bunch of crying emojis (also for the record, despite how I'm feeling, I never made any ultimatums beyond not allowing my family to be treated this way). Then saying her, my dad, and our kids were the losers here. Then told me I'm her first born and she loves me, and to please not do this to her. Then pleaded for me to not give her more than she can bear. Then said it was beyond unbearable.

I mean, I can see that logic and reason has been thrown out the window, and yet she landed several kill shots on me. How is this? Now I'm waiting for the rest of my family to jump on me. Talk about "unbearable"...

So you can see how this 'change in an instant' reaction is tied to you changing your role and not coming to heel so to speak.  She/they want your family to go back to its resting state where everyone moves as a unit and things stay calm (sort of).  By doing your own thing and changing your ways, it throws everyone off kilter and the whole system gets messed up.  

Yeah, it's one of those facts I have to keep reminding myself. I've definitely created unbalance.

Good for staying out of it.  When you say things escalate, what happens?  How do you respond?

I'm embarrassed to say I haven't responded well to the latter in the past. Recent example was this past Saturday. We were in Lion King with the kids when my mom texted me. I didn't respond because I was in the movies with a kid in my lap. 15 minutes later she texts again. I didn't respond. 15 minutes later I get a text saying "Hello"  with a waving emoji. I gave in and stepped out at that point because my 2 y/o was feeding off me and getting restless, and I really didn't want to spend the rest of the movie worrying about it. Because I described above what happens when she gets unhappy.

[ProudDad12]

Sorry, I need to whine a little more. I just don't understand how she can say the things she said, do the things on FB she did, then focus solely on the fact that my wife responded by de-friending her on FB, then she says a lot more things that she can't seem to comprehend are inappropriate, then on a dime turn around and put this all on me. Well, not the blame (that's reserved for "that wife of mine"), but responsibility to be the one who fixes everything so she can see my daughter (with my son being an afterthought).

I mean, I know that's kinda the whole point of the problem of being assigned responsibility for your parents' well being, but to see it play out so dramatically and turn so quickly is just too much for me to get my head around. And it makes me so angry, but at the same time makes me feel so horrible, that she tries to invoke my kids as the get out of jail free card.

Ok done for the moment. Back to bracing myself for a barrage from family. And back to bugging my friends (one outright said he thinks it's time to cut ties for now, and yet I'm STILL feeling guilty!)

[Harri]

Reading all of that got my stomach churning too. 

Ok done for the moment. Back to bracing myself for a barrage from family. And back to bugging my friends (one outright said he thinks it's time to cut ties for now, and yet I'm STILL feeling guilty!)

  Share away!

I am going to try to get you to work on you though.  

What can you say to yourself, over and over if necessary, when the family and your mother start the barrage?  Find a mantra and then use the heck out of it!

Establishing boundaries can be difficult.  they do not need to be done all at once though.  Work on reducing how often you respond to her texts.  If she keeps texting turn off your notifications or phone.

A big part of managing this is not just trying to get your mom and other family members to accept the changes you make but to get you comfortable with it.   

... and I really didn't want to spend the rest of the movie worrying about it.

This is very telling and it is good you can see this.  A lot of our giving in and responding as always is so we can self soothe... but it is very destructive.  Changing this requires a willingness to sit with our own uncomfortable feelings and ride them out.  It is hard.  Incredibly hard.  It is also necessary if you want things to change.

 

(one outright said he thinks it's time to cut ties for now, and yet I'm STILL feeling guilty!)

You can choose to cut ties and many of us have done so, sometimes permanently and sometimes temporarily.  It is important to note though that going no contact is simply a tool to get you time and space to heal a bit so you can then work on the guilt.  No contact will not take the guilt away, unfortunately.

[ProudDad12]

Reading all of that got my stomach churning too. 
   Share away!

Thank you! I just want to say I really appreciate all the thorough and consistent effort you and also Notwendy put into this board, you both were there to help me a few years back and here still.

What can you say to yourself, over and over if necessary, when the family and your mother start the barrage?  Find a mantra and then use the heck out of it!

Funny you should say that... I actually found myself saying "I'm not responsible for my mother's emotions" over and over this afternoon. And had brief smile when my 2 y/o son walked over to me; I looked at him and said it to him half playfully, and he smiled and shook his head as if in agreement.

Establishing boundaries can be difficult.  they do not need to be done all at once though.  Work on reducing how often you respond to her texts.  If she keeps texting turn off your notifications or phone.

Yeah, I ended up turning off my phone Sunday night. Wasn't fun turning it back on in the morning though. I have it on do not disturb now, trying not to let it taunt me. In times of "peace" I do try to not be too quick to respond, especially during the work day when she loves to text. It prompts the occasional "Did you see your mother's text?" from my dad, but I try to just shrug it off. But I do have my moments of weaknesses like on Saturday, especially during times I feel like I'm just not up for a battle.

Changing this requires a willingness to sit with our own uncomfortable feelings and ride them out.  It is hard.  Incredibly hard.  It is also necessary if you want things to change.

Thanks. It's a tough fact that I need to face. And something I need to remind myself when I'm wallowing in guilt in regards to the future of my children in relation to her.

 You can choose to cut ties and many of us have done so, sometimes permanently and sometimes temporarily.  It is important to note though that going no contact is simply a tool to get you time and space to heal a bit so you can then work on the guilt.  No contact will not take the guilt away, unfortunately.

It sure doesn't take it away! We went NC a year or so back for a few weeks. It was one of the hardest things I've ever done, and I don't know that they ever recovered. It was during the Christmas holidays, which had more impact but also made it harder on me as well. My dad tried to shame me over the fact that we "needed our space". At the same time, they seemed to take it as a wake up call that my wife and I weren't messing around anymore. I was wondering how long it was going to last. This time around, I'm angrier, and have been very careful to try to avoid missteps on my part. Otherwise NC becomes me focusing on the one or two things I could have done better in the conflict that might have prevented the current status.

[Notwendy]

It's tough when your father is into this too. My father enabled my BPD mother. I recall an e mail from him when I began to have boundaries with her. " I just want us to be a happy family again". This actually meant "go back to being a doormat letting your mother do whatever she wants with you". Does that sound like a happy family?

I think it would help to understand family systems as a unit. Families function to keep a balance for the whole family. When one part changes, the others compensate to keep that balance. When there is a disordered person in the family, the rest of the family may take on certain roles/behaviors to keep the family in balance. If one person changes their role/behavior- the family goes out of balance and the remaining members are then feeling discomfort. They want their balance back!

One of the first things they do is try to get the changing member to go back. Your mother has been doing things that have worked for her- texts, threats. guilt. These are her tools for getting what she wants. If using her "hammer" has worked for her, then she's going to hammer away to get you back. Look at her behaviors and see that she's doing this, and Dad's helping too.

Eventually they may even "cast out" the family member. Or what may happen is that, after hammering away, they learn it isn't working. Maybe they will learn new behaviors or just accept the situation as it is.

I can't say what will happen in your family. For me it was a difficult choice: my autonomy with my own family, or making my parents happy by being a doormat and allowing BPD mother to have full access to my kids ( and treat them how she treats me). By making the choice of my own family and kids, over doing what my parents wanted, my relationship with my parents changed. It's unfortunate- this was not what I wanted but if the cost of acceptance was to compromise the well being of my kids, I choose my kids.

I lean a lot on my own ethics. If I am treating them in a way I think is ethical then what they think or say about me doesn't change that. You are a good person aiming to be a good father and husband. You also want to be a good son. But if your parents' demands compromise your role as husband and father, you have to choose. It's a tough choice but you know what that choice is.

[madeline7]

I  have had a few periods of NC with my Mom (after Dad passed), one was 5 months, and the other was 2 months. The first time was incredibly hard, but the second time was easier. I found the second time to be a relief, a break, and welcomed being able to wake up each day without the anxiety of when to call, what to say, JADE, FOG, etc. I am less tolerant of her behaviors now for 2 reasons; 1.I do not deserve to be treated this way and 2. I want to be a good role model for my kids who are now adults and understand what is going on (and they don't want me to be treated this way). So being a "good" role model is now defined by me no longer being a doormat. When my Dad was alive, being "good" meant not upsetting my Mom, who was upset by just about everything. Learning to let go of all this madness has been quite a journey. For my birthday this year, my daughter got me a book/journal called 52 lists for happiness, a weekly journal for inspiration, positivity, balance and joy. Now that is a new and welcome concept!

[Harri]

This thread reached the post limit and has been locked and split.  Part 2 is here: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=338537.msg13067866#msg13067866

Thank you!