Re: BPD sibling lives with enabling parents. Not sure how to change things.

[Depression = 72% of members]

Mod Note:  this thread is an update from here https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=326136.0

Hello! I'm back on here a year later. Wasn't sure if I should start a new thread or not.

First and foremost, THANK YOU, everyone who posted, supported, and advised me. I do like what Woolspinner wrote, for me to think of what my brother would want to talk about. I did think about that.

UPDATE: The dynamic is different now. My father had a serious stroke and no longer lives with my mom and bro. He's been in a nursing home. My mother now takes on the brunt of my brother's verbal and mental abuse. I started going to a Family Support Group earlier this year as I was at my wits end, walking on eggshells and ready to explode.

Things have gotten so bad that my mother has attended some groups with me. Btw, this is the ONLY reason she goes according to her. The first thing she said at one of the groups is, "I can't take it anymore!" A woman mirrored that statement back to her when we were leaving as my mother can start feeling guilty and will switch what's she saying.

I've called his doctor 2x this year. I finally did it! When I told my mother I did it, she was glad! I think she's so broken and this has been going on so long that she just can't even do it. I let him know what was going on and that my mother feels he's needed a meds adjustment for over 2 years, etc. The second time I called which was recent, I let him know that my mother is being verbally abused and that she's asked me to call the police which I did recently as she was scared of him!

They did try a meds adjustment but there were side effects so he's back on regular meds. He rants in circles my brother. He thinks it's everyone else, not him. He talks endlessly about the past.

I've been pushing my mother that something needs to change! She feels she has no control, I tell her, yes you do as you provide the roof over his head. She has told him to call his doctor, it's him, etc.

I'm ready to cut him off. I'd like to have this loving conversation but when someone is SUPER nasty to you, year after year, I'm not sure how anymore. I start writing out what to say to him but delete it.

I guess I'd say. What kind of a relationship do you want to have with me? I want to have a great relationship with you. I love you. I stay away from you because you are very angry and abusive. I'm not sure you see it. I think you believe it's everyone else. I can't be around you like this and I will not let my son be around this kind of behavior. I want you to have a better life, I hope you want that too. Here are some resources for you to look into if you wish. I think you'd greatly benefit.

Something like that. Thanks for reading. I look forward to hearing from you! Thank you  

[BabySister]

Mod Note:  this thread is an update from here https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=326136.0

Hello! I'm back on here a year later. Wasn't sure if I should start a new thread or not.

First and foremost, THANK YOU, everyone who posted, supported, and advised me. I do like what Woolspinner wrote, for me to think of what my brother would want to talk about. I did think about that.

UPDATE: The dynamic is different now. My father had a serious stroke and no longer lives with my mom and bro. He's been in a nursing home. My mother now takes on the brunt of my brother's verbal and mental abuse. I started going to a Family Support Group earlier this year as I was at my wits end, walking on eggshells and ready to explode.

Things have gotten so bad that my mother has attended some groups with me. Btw, this is the ONLY reason she goes according to her. The first thing she said at one of the groups is, "I can't take it anymore!" A woman mirrored that statement back to her when we were leaving as my mother can start feeling guilty and will switch what's she saying.

I've called his doctor 2x this year. I finally did it! When I told my mother I did it, she was glad! I think she's so broken and this has been going on so long that she just can't even do it. I let him know what was going on and that my mother feels he's needed a meds adjustment for over 2 years, etc. The second time I called which was recent, I let him know that my mother is being verbally abused and that she's asked me to call the police which I did recently as she was scared of him!

They did try a meds adjustment but there were side effects so he's back on regular meds. He rants in circles my brother. He thinks it's everyone else, not him. He talks endlessly about the past.

I've been pushing my mother that something needs to change! She feels she has no control, I tell her, yes you do as you provide the roof over his head. She has told him to call his doctor, it's him, etc.

I'm ready to cut him off. I'd like to have this loving conversation but when someone is SUPER nasty to you, year after year, I'm not sure how anymore. I start writing out what to say to him but delete it.

I guess I'd say. What kind of a relationship do you want to have with me? I want to have a great relationship with you. I love you. I stay away from you because you are very angry and abusive. I'm not sure you see it. I think you believe it's everyone else. I can't be around you like this and I will not let my son be around this kind of behavior. I want you to have a better life, I hope you want that too. Here are some resources for you to look into if you wish. I think you'd greatly benefit.

Something like that. Thanks for reading. I look forward to hearing from you! Thank you  

[Harri]

Hi BabySister and welcome back! 

I am sorry to hear about your dad having a stroke.  How are you and your mom doing coping with that? 

I am also sorry to hear that things with your brother have not improved.  This disorder is so difficult and frustrating especially when the pwBPD feels like everyone else is the issue. 

I like the idea of your letter to your brother.  Is this something you want to send for sure or is it more about posting it here and getting your feelings out on paper?  if you do want to send it, we can try to help you with some wording if you'd like.

In the meantime, what are you doing to take care of you?  Between having your own life, helping your father and your mother how have you been?  Are you able to get time for yourself?

[BabySister]

Hi Harri,
Thank you for your response. I definitely didn't post correctly. I found my original thread from last year, it had something like 767 views and I replied to that and for some reason, none of it is showing anymore and I can't even locate in now. Very strange.

Do you know how to link to an original thread?
I found this...

To answer your questions,
I'm not 100% sure I want to send a letter. I feel I need to communicate in some fashion with him. Other people in my life feel I don't owe him any explanation. He does acknowledge his bad behavior after doing or saying nasty things it but just continues to battle on with me, my mom, etc. Most of all I get roped into to talking to him because he lives with my mother! I get all kinds of F.O.G. from her. Any wording would be much appreciated.

To take care of myself, I've distanced myself from my mother, brother, and even my father as I don't want to run into my brother at the nursing home. I've been spending more time having fun and less time involved in a bunch of negative drama.

Regarding coping with the stroke, Ive spent countless hours fighting for my dad's rights and getting him therapy. I've had to battle both my mother and brother about every little thing with my dad's care. At this point, I've given up hope that he'll ever walk again, live at home again, etc. This is why my mother needs to make some moves about my brother NOW! It can't wait any longer. He needs some motivation to change.

I feel if you check out my original thread, that has all the background context.

[Harri]

Hi!

Nah, you did not do it wrong.  I split your recent post from the thread from last year and started a new thread for you.  We lock threads when they are between 25 to 30 posts now so any responses would be cut off and a new thread would need to be started anyway.  The old thread already had 28 posts.  So, I posted a link in your first post here so people can go back to your old thread and easily get the history.   If you want to see the old thread, just follow the link in the first post here. 

I did read your old thread for context. 

Sometimes saying something can be a very positive thing for us.  When I read your proposed note, I could hear the love and concern you feel for him.  I can also hear that you have had it too.  That makes sense.  He is not treating you well and it is affecting you and your own family.   Is he still around your son once a week like he was last year?

We have a communication tool called SET that might help, though I think you followed that.  S.E.T. - Support, Empathy and Truth

This is why my mother needs to make some moves about my brother NOW! It can't wait any longer. He needs some motivation to change.

I am not sure how you can change the dynamic between your mother and brother, not without them teaming up against you that is.  It sounds like there was a lot of triangulation going on last year.  I assume it is still happening?  Have you read Escaping conflict: The Karpman Drama Triangle?  See what you think.

[BabySister]

Hi Harri,
Thanks for setting up the thread. I rewatched the S.E.T. video, thank you. I did watch and apply that last year. Upon watching it, I realize how done I am with the situation. Having sympathy and empathy is not where I'm at right now... but I can get back there eventually.

My son hasn't been around him much lately. Some weekends we hire a babysitter as we used to always ask my mom. She likes to babysit him however this is also (it appears) the only opportunity my brother has to see my son. My mother tends to advocate for my brother and tell me I'm preventing him from seeing my son. VICTIM! A few weeks back my mom let my brother come over here without my permission while out. We did discuss this and I set the boundary, if he wishes to come over, he needs to contact me and ask.

The past month or so I've been waiting to have a conversation with my brother. What to say, I'm not sure. I was going to say, the last few times we've been together, you've been yelling at mom. It scares me and my son. Again, I'm not sure how to approach him.

This all involves my husband now as well as he is fed up too and is no longer just staying silent. My brother likes to dig up my entire history and tell my husband. My brother likes to poo poo all over my past and basically say that I'm F'd up too. My husband said, yes, I know about your sister's past and look where she is now. My husband tried the other day to point out how conflicted he is and how contradictory he is and now he is getting text rants. Nasty stuff. So the problem here is he feels it's every one else. My mother feels there's nothing she can do at this point.

*Important* Back when my BPDB had his first episode, a social worker recommended housing for him as it would provide motivation. My father disliked this idea and here we are decades later.

I've gone to support groups and it's helped me get back in touch with my brother a few months back. We started having lunch again and I basically talk very surface type stuff with him and never talk about serious stuff. Any suggestions are welcome!

Thank you!

[BabySister]

Here is a draft of a letter for my BPDB. Thanks for reading and I'd appreciate any feedback.


What kind of a relationship would you like to have with me? What kind of a relationship would you like to have with (my son)?

I want to have a good relationship with you. How can we make this possible?

For me, the current state you are in makes this not possible.

The reason I’ve been distancing myself is due to the behaviors I’ve witnessed the last few times I’ve seen you. I’m not comfortable around you.

When I asked you last year if we can discuss your condition, diagnosis, whatever you’d prefer to say, you said, “Sure, we can discuss it.” However we’ve never discussed it since. Why? Because you are not open to discussing your behavior and it appears not open to change. Instead, I watch you struggle with your emotions and have no idea how to help.

Over the years, there’s been multiple text rants you’ve ventured on. There’s always some misunderstanding that gets blown up out of proportion. You get super nasty and aggressive. I believe you are aware of your behavior as I’ve witnessed you second guess your behaviors and take things back. Do you feel there’s any room for improvement? Do you want to be better?

I'd like you to seek additional treatment. There are resources available. Support groups, classes, etc. If you want to have a better relationship with me, and others, maybe you’ll do this. Until then, I am not interested in hearing from you. I’ve heard quite enough over the past 10 years. There’s very little open discussion about what you are going through and what you are doing to better yourself.  I feel you rarely, if ever acknowledge your behavior.

I know, it’s me! It’s the douche bag from the bar. It’s _______. Fill in the blank with all the nasty type stuff you can think of, dig out the past, etc. This is what you focus on rather than actually hearing what is being said to you.

For once, I’d love to see the seething fervor you have for going off on someone turned into energy for you to deal with some of your anger and emotions. The log of statements from the past you can dig up are amazing, however, if I call you out on a behavior, you don’t remember. You’re a young guy still, lots of life ahead. I want nothing more than to see you strong, confident, happy, and successful. Our relatonship is not possible anymore as it is. I’m not interested until you work some things out.

In the past, I comprimised myself for mom and dad and would just start talking to you again and sweep it all under the proverbial rug. I can’t do it anymore.

[GaGrl]

My immediate reaction is that your empathy was show i g until Christmas moments about "going to the bar." That seemed out of j other to the other strong messages of concern. Don't give him a hook!

[BabySister]

GaGrl,
Good call. Thank you. I removed it. I'm wondering if adding in behaviors that have occurred in front of my son and my concern or if it's strong enough as it is.

Update is my BPDB text ranted my husband over the past 2 days as my husband wasn't just taking all the things he was throwing at him the other day when they saw each other. My husband is really starting to witness complete mood swing of it all.

My bro will say all kinds of nasty things, then 7 hours later say, the damage is done, let's cut our losses. Then when he gets no response, just starts hurling insults again.

Harri,
I did review the Karpman Drama triangle. How do I get off and go into the middle?

Right now, I'm on my way to going N/C with him.

[Harri]

Hi again.

I think your letter to your brother has a lot of valid points for you and they are important issues for you.  I don't think your brother will respond well or in a positive way if that is what you are hoping for, however.  BPD is a disorder of emotional regulation and is shame based in addition to there being a strong fear of abandonment.  Your letter, while cathartic for you, will hit him on all of those points, especially shame.  He can't handle those emotions. 

That said, it is important for you to protect yourself and your own family.  How are you with setting boundaries?   Have you read our articles on how to set them and how you take action to enforce them?  Can you see how in your letter you use a lot of 'you' statements and how some of the language is inflammatory? 

About getting off the drama triangle.  Can you see the role you take in it between your mom and your brother?  A lot of times we focus on how our pwBPD casts us in a particular role and rarely take a look at the role we take often without our full awareness.   all roles eventually lead to victim actually, even when we take on the role of rescuer. 

Take a look at this article here:  The Three Faces of Victim The discussion on the three roles continues in posts 3, 4 and 5.

What do you think would happen if you let your mother and brother work out their own relationship and deal with his living situation on their own?  I understand the concern and I understand how hard it is to have someone try to pull you in and make peace to make their life easier.  When we do that, when we rescue and try to problem solve for others, we are getting right into the drama, playing all roles: rescuer, persecutor and victim.

See what you think after you read this article and then go back and make sure you read the karpman Drama article again, especially the second part of the article that talks about getting off the drama triangle and getting on the winners triangle.

 

[BabySister]

Hi Harri,
I agree, I don’t see a positive response coming from this letter and I see all the inflammatory "you" statements upon reading it.

What I’m struggling with is that my BPDB does feel abandoned by me but the reason I’m not around is due to his behavior. I attended a support group the other night and a women there suggested I need to do whatever I need to do for myself. She also pointed out the dynamic between my mother and me after noticing how agitated I get when she’s talking at me. She suggested I just listen. So I have been. Applied it right away and see a difference.

At the same meeting I mentioned I blocked my BPDB on my phone so I no longer receive texts or calls. Today my mom says, "So, if he was to call you and be remorseful, he can’t get in touch with you?" I said, "That’s right." Then she’s upset that I hired a babysitter for my night out with my husband. I said, if you’d like to see my son, come over when we are home. Basically, I tried hard to stand by the recent decisions and not feel guilty and overexplain or defend anything.

I checked out the link on the, “Victim Triangle.” I guess I’m on all corners of it at various times, unfortunately. I couldn’t locate this, “second part of the article that talks about getting off the drama triangle and getting on the winners triangle.” but would love to read it. It is painful to realize I set myself up in these roles.

I’ve been starting to set some boundaries. I’m not awesome at it by any means. But laid down a few lately, such as if she’s babysitting and my BPDB wants to come over, he needs to call me. Another boundary is when my BPDB starts blowing me up with rant texts, last time I said I’d file a police report, that stopped him. This time I just blocked him. My mother will likely tell him. Part of her homework from the meeting was to get out of the middle between us so maybe she won’t.

I woke up the night after the support group to a messaage from the night before, it was my mother calling to let me know my BPDB scared her and she ran out of the house. She said if it happens again she guesses she’ll try to get out the house again since I’m not picking up my phone. I received the message in the morning. Wound up speaking to her later, seems the next day he was fine. I can’t be expected to sleep with my phone when this stuff occurs! I already called the cops a few months back when she asked for help and when they came, she didn’t let the police take him to the hospital!

You asked, “What do you think would happen if you let your mother and brother work out their own relationship and deal with his living situation on their own?”
There’s so much enmeshment between the 2 of them, it’s sort of impossible to imagine it being separate or not being pulled into it any time I speak with one of them. It's such a crisis mode over there (I want to rescue!) but I may just have to let it be.

I’m totally open to any suggestions at this point. My husband is rattled by all the nasty, hurtful statements my BPDB texted him the other day. He’s in no hurry to be around him either. We are winging it right now and just keeping our distance. 

[BabySister]

I found it! Caring Triangle / Winning Triangle.

[Harri]

What I’m struggling with is that my BPDB does feel abandoned by me but the reason I’m not around is due to his behavior. I attended a support group the other night and a women there suggested I need to do whatever I need to do for myself. She also pointed out the dynamic between my mother and me after noticing how agitated I get when she’s talking at me. She suggested I just listen. So I have been. Applied it right away and see a difference.

Yes, this is a difficult situation all the way around.  Of course you do not want to hurt or trigger your brother yet at the same time you have to have boundaries and take care of yourself.   I do not see anything wrong with saying "I am going to leave/hang up now, we can continue this conversation at another time when things are calmer".   He will go off the handle and dysregulate more.  He needs to learn to self soothe on his own without us trying to manage his symptoms (what your mother does with him is her issue to manage).  We can however, use tools we offer here to communicate in kinder and more validating ways.

The lady at your support group was wise to suggest you just listen to your mother.  I know I have a tendency to fix, tell people what they can/should do to fix things and it is very invalidating even though that is the very last thing I intend.  You saw what a great effec just listening can have with your mom and that is great.  Why not try some validation with her as well.  We actually talk more about not invalidating people, specifically our pwBPD, but it works for everyone.  We have an article here that explains it well:  Don't Invalidate.  Between that and empathetic listening you might find that things improve a lot with your mom.  On top of that, it may be easier to try out and practice these skills with your mom than with your brother.   We have some other tools that might help as well but I do not want to overload you with info. 

At the same meeting I mentioned I blocked my BPDB on my phone so I no longer receive texts or calls. Today my mom says, "So, if he was to call you and be remorseful, he can’t get in touch with you?" I said, "That’s right." Then she’s upset that I hired a babysitter for my night out with my husband. I said, if you’d like to see my son, come over when we are home. Basically, I tried hard to stand by the recent decisions and not feel guilty and overexplain or defend anything.

Excellent.   Emotional management for us is going to be hard, especially at first.   Learning to sit with our emotions, no matter how distressing is important and necessary when it comes to breaking life time patterns of behaviors.  Stepping in and rescuing is often a (dysfunctional) way for us to manage (make them go away or lessen) our own emotions. 

I checked out the link on the, “Victim Triangle.” I guess I’m on all corners of it at various times, unfortunately.

You are not alone in this!  I swear I can play all three roles just in my own mind.     I think a lot of us do it here.  That is not an easy article to read as it can be quite confronting.  Good for you for sticking with it.  That sounds patronizing but I do not mean it that way at all. 

In terms of a letter to your brother, why not sit on it for a while and see how things change as you work oon you and changing your role.  You said in another post that you are not in a place right now to offer sympathy and empathy and that is okay.  Self care is important and part of that is listening to and honoring your own feelings.

I think you are doing very well with all of this.   

 

[BabySister]

Thank you for your response Harri and the vote of confidence that I am doing well with all this! I read your words and applied what you suggested. I wrote a few different letters on my computer but didn’t send anything.

The work I’ve done over the past week has been to focus on myself, detach, and listen to my mother, not rescue and fix, don’t get pulled onto the triangle. I need advice though (OPEN TO SUGGESTIONS FROM ALL) as these are the kinds of things she says when we’re together…

I planned a day to get together with my mother. We arrived at our destination and my husband and son got out of the car, then she turns and says, your BPD brother is depressed now. I didn’t respond. Not sure what to say.
Later on our drive home, she *tells* me to unblock him on my phone, what if something happens to her and he needs to get in touch with me. I finally tell her I did unblock him.

Then we end our day with her saying, “do you want me to tell you if your brother gets more depressed?” I repeated what she asked and then said, I don’t know, I guess so?

I just feel when she’s talking to me she’s expecting me to do something. I said to her do you work on him (meaning my brother) as much as you work on me? Then she quotes the a woman from the family group who said to me, your mother’s broken, she’s tapped out, there’s nothing she can do to change the situation. OK, so what, she has a free pass?

Then she asks if I went to the family group and did the woman who facilitates it *tell* me again to avoid my BPDB? I responded, “when does she ever say that?” “It’s implied” she says. OK!

Again, looking for healthy responses.
Thank you for reading.