Part 2: When you feel the effects but don't know the cause?

[ProudDad12]

Mod Note:  Part 1 of this thread is here  https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=338446.0

Thank you for the continued help and shared experiences.

Today I'm in need of advice... it's my off day so I was going to stay home with the kids. But my mom started back this morning telling me it was my wife who was out of line and the fact that I don't see that is inconceivable. So realizing I wasn't going to be in a state of mind to chase a 2 y/o all day, I took my son on to daycare (where he usually goes while we're working during the week). As I was holding him from getting him out of the truck, the middle of my back tweaked in a way I've never felt, and now I'm basically off my feet the rest of the day and hoping the pain doesn't get worse. I have to guess it's related to the stress. Anyway, my mom continued, and called multiple times and left a message, that I couldn't bring myself to listen to. My wife came home to check on me and listened to the message, and said she was sounding pitiful but also still thinking this was all about the anniversary thing. I don't know how to address that level of cluelessness/delusion. The latest message said for us to find a family counselor and she will pay. My wife joked that I should ask if we could send her the bill from the past 3 years.

So here's where I'm unsteady... it appears her raging is done for the moment, and she is giving appearances of wanting to try picking up the pieces (if that is even possible on my wife's end at this point, which I doubt). So now it's getting even harder to not respond. My wife's advice is to continue not engaging and let it play out. If she finally goes silent and gives us a breather, maybe in a week or two send a letter. I know I would love for my mom to go see a counselor herself, ideally showing them the entire text conversation as a starting point. So now I don't know if the best move is to continue not engaging, or what. I still can't believe she says all these things to us, and think we're not speaking to her because of the forgotten anniversary, which we said from the beginning we never would have said anything about had she not asked. This is besides the fact that I'm in a lot of physical pain now and really don't want to be thinking about this, much less actively dealing with it. And being off my feet is one of the worst things for my mental state... can't be active and am limited with my distractions. Not to mention I'm the type that doesn't handle being incapacitated very well; my wife is already lecturing me about not trying to do too much.

So in regards to my mom, any advice on the next move?


 

[Notwendy]

Pulling a muscle in my back was one of the first signs that the stress of my mother's abuse was too much. It's a signal for self care. If you can afford it, I would get a massage. I did that and it helped - not just for the muscle issue but along with the self care factor. It was an indulgence but a much needed one.

It was also a signal that I needed to not be the subject of her emotional issues. This is you telling yourself- get some space. Self care isn't cruel although your mother won't see it this way but you can.

Don't expect any sympathy from your mom for not feeling up to par. There can't be two "victims" for her. She's in victim mode and can't see past that.

Your boundary is " I am not up to this at the moment". There is an acronym "HALT" hungry, angry, lonely, tired- that says you can't be emotionally available at the time because you need to take care of you. You can add other feelings- like your pulled muscle or you have had enough of her texts at the moment.

Your mother won't accept this but you text her "Mom, I have seen your text and understand your feelings ( validation of feeling, not the accusations). However, I have a pulled muscle and I am getting some rest. I am not able to respond to texts or calls at the moment. I will respond when I feel up to it later.

Expect your phone to blow up- but now you have set a boundary and do not answer. Continue to take space for yourself for any reason using the same format for the reply.

You are not available all the time for this stuff, but you can engage her on your terms.

[GaGrl]

Yes, what NotWendy said. My husband's back goes out when he is undercstress, too. Not fun.

Holding the boundary is critical. With BPD, a person can not self-soothe. If your mother is agitated because you and your wife are not "under her control," and she can not self-soothe, she will blow up your phone with calls and texts until you respond. That is telling her that if she just persists and sends 1 10 texts and leaves 73 messages, you will have at #111 and #74. Don't do it.

Get a massage. Find a comfortable position and something to binge watch. Turn off the phone. Don't go to the door.

[ProudDad12]

Thank you both, I needed to hear that. And it's strangely comforting (validating?) that the back pain is a common response.

I was hoping my text yesterday was setting the boundary (saying in the beginning and end that it would be my only text). I weathered her invoking my kids and her asking when she's going to get to see them. I weathered her calling our behavior devilish and telling me to look to Christ (for the record, had already been on my knees in prayer a lot over this). I weathered the anger after the vile things she said about my wife (technically we weathered it, I'm just speaking in terms of holding strong on not responding). Her suggesting counseling threw me off kilter. Is it a trap? Is it sincere and deserving of a single acknowledgement before reinforcing the boundary? Is she trying different keys to see what fits the new lock? She's good, is all I know to say. Feel like I've made it to level 3 of some twisted BPD emotional role playing game and trying to make it to the next stage.

[Notwendy]

It might help to clarify a boundary.

A boundary is not something we impose on another person. It is a boundary we have for ourselves. If person does X- I will do Y. Expect your mother to test - push- at your boundaries ( my mother does). The boundary is that you keep to your word about responding:

" I am not available to answer your texts right now"

She can blow up your phone as much as she wants but the boundary is on you to not respond to them.

She's going to use whatever tools she has in her relationship tool box- why not they have been working for her all these years. The content of her words is something to hold against your boundaries of what is you and what isn't you. Consider that she's saying these to get what she wants. This is manipulation.

You know who you are. If she tells you you are a pink elephant, does that make you one? If she tells you you need counseling, just because she says it doesn't mean you do. You need to filter what she says and not consider things that are not true.  So she pulls God to her point of view. I think God can see the whole picture better than she can. Your relationship with God is between you and God. It's not her business. This takes practice but it gets easier to do this.

[GaGrl]

Yes, she is upping the ante, manipulating you to respond. Again, she can not self-soothe. I would not be surprised if you learned later that she has been discharging emotion on other members of the family -- since she can't handle her own heightened emotion, all that energy has to get discharged somewhere.

Your job is to ensure that your boundaries are held so that she doesn't discharge her emotion on you and your family.

[ProudDad12]

Thanks again, I'll try to stay strong and hold the boundary. Just have to remind myself that it really is manipulation.

You know who you are. If she tells you you are a pink elephant, does that make you one? If she tells you you need counseling, just because she says it doesn't mean you do. You need to filter what she says and not consider things that are not true.  So she pulls God to her point of view. I think God can see the whole picture better than she can. Your relationship with God is between you and God. It's not her business. This takes practice but it gets easier to do this.

Yeah, I've been trying to remind myself of that. Luckily it was one of the first lessons I learned when I started seeking help for this stuff. A few years back, half the labels she put on me this week would have had me begging for them to understand I wasn't that way, and would have consumed me. Now I just accept her words are out of anger and/or delusion. Next step... apply the concept in the context of my kids.

As far as counseling, despite them trying to shame me a couple years back when they found out I was going, I'm not ashamed. They've put a lot of stuff in my head that needs to be weeded out. And I've had a lot to learn on what real communication means in a relationship. My whole family lives by the concept of don't discuss, sweep it under the rug, and move on with a happy face. The idea of her going would be amazing, if I thought she would take it seriously.

Yes, she is upping the ante, manipulating you to respond. Again, she can not self-soothe.

Afraid of that, and yet knowing that's what it is helps me to stand my ground.

I would not be surprised if you learned later that she has been discharging emotion on other members of the family -- since she can't handle her own heightened emotion, all that energy has to get discharged somewhere.

I can about guarantee that's happening. In the past it's been one of the tools to call my dad and siblings to action against me, whether she realized she was doing it or not. Just waiting for one of my dad's "Your mother is in the tub wailing" texts. Or "I went to the house and mama was sobbing" from my brother. Really makes me feel like a stand-up son, and why I have to continually remind myself I'm not responsible for her emotions. I still have to fight the nagging little voice saying "you telling yourself that makes you even worse of a person". Anyway I'm guessing at least my sister has gotten something from her, because it appears she defriended my wife on FB, I guess to settle the score? Oh well.

So I finished my last book and starting Emotional Blackmail now. Seems appropriate given the circumstances. At the very least it's somewhere I can put my nervous energy. Have to say, I really wish I had seen the light and started all this years back before we had kids. NC from my parents means they don't see the kids either. There's a strong argument that that may actually be better for my kids', but it hurts bad, and gives an opening for manipulation that is very hard to hold against long term.

[ProudDad12]

It looks like I passed the window for being able to edit my post, but need to add, it looks like my sister didn't de-friend my wife. It appears she deactivated and then reactivated later in the day before my wife checked via my account to see what happened.

Sorry, trivial thing, but I don't want to me misleading, intentionally or not.

[Methuen]

ProudDad12:

I am following your Part 2 posts:  NotWendy's words really resonated with me.  I totally support the idea of getting a therapeutic massage if you can afford it.  I too have lower back problems, and about 8 months ago had 4 emergency massages to loosen up my "cemented" back muscles (was on my back in pain for 3 weeks) .  Then followed it up with physiotherapy to stretch, and strengthen and support the muscles around the area to prevent future "flare ups".  Therapeutic massage and physio really works!  I do not ever want that pain in my back again! That is my motivation for doing daily physio.  I would argue that massage is not an "indulgence" at all.  Treating that kind of pain should not be thought of as an indulgence any more than treating a broken bone or anything else that is broken such as kidney or brain.  We've been socialized to think that a massage is a treat, but if it's therapeutic to manage pain, then we can think of it as a treatment rather than a treat  Since getting massage and doing physio almost daily for the past 8 months, I have not had another episode of lower back pain (but I still have the uBPD mother!).  I am fortunate to have access to an insurance plan that helps to cover my appointments.  Physical pain is brutal on top of everything else.  Self-care is not selfish.  It is self-preserving, and healthy.  Do whatever self-care you can afford or that works for you!  You deserve it!

[GaGrl]

I found that the best thing for both my husband and me was yoga. For me, it was the breathing, since I "forget" to breathe when under stress. My husband hated it at first, but then he realized it was strengthening his core and helping with his lower back issues. And the flexibility helped with his golf game.

[LoveOnTheRocks]

I had a spine injury several years back and ended up with another condition, which is related to a dysfunctional central nervous system.  This issue is pervasive in my life, which is completely unrelated to anything/anyone other than the actual injury to my spine.  That said, I am more able than most to detect the effects of stress on the CNS, because mine is so "overactive" as a result of the injury.
I can tell you that the level of stress you are enduring, from both sides, your wife and your mother, and feelings "caught in the middle" is rendering havoc to you in more ways than you are really seeing, and it can/will get worse without intervention and decisions to protect yourself and your mental health.  I am positive of this from my own experiences with this.  When I read about you try to "settle" things with your mom and  "if your wife would go along" I could literally feel, in my own CNS, what that pit in your stomach feels like (it starts there and grows to other places in the body). I also suggested in my post on this thread that it was important to preserve that marriage FIRST, because my experience with all I've been through in the past 20 years, with having my husband and enduring my mother's actions against me and my life (which has literally led to what  someone else on this thread talked about in another post where she talked about one person in the family structure changing things, and when they refused to change them back, they actually got alienated by the entire family")...my husband was steady as a rock for me in all this, and when it all "shook down" he was the one who was strong, and stood firmly by me.

I notice on FB that while I am friends with all of my family, I don't get all the "inner talking" messages they do.  I see these when I go to their individual pages and realize these conversations aren't on mine.  My family literally feels like I did something wrong to my mother (poor her) when I stood up for myself and against all the years of public humiliation and picking fights with me.  This, even after many of them privately told me that they hated that she did that to me and just identifying that they all saw it, and thought it was horrible.  I am still in a relationship with my family, we are getting together over labor day...but it's all "controlled" by her lead. ...still.  Things are better with my mother, as she has removed the bullseye from my back and put it on my fathers now...but it's sad...(and I do think she has gotten therapy and lots of advice from people who helped her improve how she treats me and what she does..."they" must have read my letters to her over the time period I went NC except to tell her why I had gone "NC")...I am glad that my mother wanted to fix the issues with me, but I will likely be on guard to some degree when around her...and it's so nice to come home with my husband, where I am not "on guard" after the get togethers are all said and done.
So, if my husband had a lead...I am pretty sure I would try to follow it, in order that he and I are always in sync.  I KNOW it is the relationship with my mom, and as a result greater family, that is dysfunctional...and it does affect my husband...and I am sensitive to his feelings in all this, because if he gets to a place with it all...it will be him I want and need to be ok.
Sorry, I am all over the place on this post.  This thread is particularly hard for me, because it talks about something that has been pervasive and painful in my life.  So much of what others are saying deeply resonates with me, and it blows my mind that there are others out there going through the same thing...I so much appreciate hearing about your growth in these issues, and especially about your observations, which are so like mine, often.

[ProudDad12]

Thanks everyone. I never made it to get a massage, but I did take it easy for a couple days and my back is much better now. It's still a little stiff in the mornings, but after the pain on Friday I'm just relieved its better at all; with the way it felt I was originally afraid it was a herniated disk or something (not knowing what one feels like).

LoveOnTheRocks, thank you for sharing. Means a lot to hear from others who understand what it's like. Like you, I can't believe other people go through this. You're right, it's very hard to be in the middle. So many people would say "but it's your mom!", or "how can you even think of keeping kids away from their grandparents?" But it's like they overlook the fact that I have to weigh that against the verbal abuse against my wife and I (mostly my wife, my mom just treats me like I'm brainwashed). In fact, I think my wife is in as bad of shape as me this week from the things that were said. Just surreal having my mom question my "devilish" wife's upbringing like she did (for the record, my own MIL is one of the better "Walk the talk" Christians I know). Makes it hard to comfort each other when we're both struggling! The other thing about our kids is the fear of what my parent's influence will have. My daughter is already showing signs of wanting to please my mom. Latest example what when she was afraid to tell her about her latest hobby because it's not the typical girly stuff she knows my mom would like. And historically when my mom comes to visit, my 6 year old daughter makes a point to get out one of the dolls my mom got her so she can see her play with it. Such a small thing, but knowing where I've come from, it's tough to watch.

[Notwendy]

I also get the "it's your mom---". Other people may not notice the subtle people pleasing on the part of your kids, but you do, and that's good. I noticed my mother trying to enlist my kids as emotional caretakers for her. It may appear subtle to others but since we know what is is, we see it. I was chilling to watch.

I didn't go NC with my parents but I had boundaries with the kids and my mom. My parents didn't like this. BPD mom told others about her terrible daughter who was keeping her from her grandchildren. She isn't very nice to me but somehow assumes she can bypass me and have a relationship with them.

The kids are older now and have their own boundaries with her. They are cordial with her but don't let her antics affect them much.

[ProudDad12]

I also get the "it's your mom---". Other people may not notice the subtle people pleasing on the part of your kids, but you do, and that's good. I noticed my mother trying to enlist my kids as emotional caretakers for her. It may appear subtle to others but since we know what is is, we see it. I was chilling to watch.

It really is chilling. While I can't remember the exact words she used, my mom outright told me once that our daughter is her source of joy. Or something along those lines. I pray my girl doesn't feel that pressure any more than she already does.

I could get on all sorts of tangents about the "special connection" my mom talks about having with my daughter and how it plays out in our lives. Like how she insisted on being the one to get her her first American Girl doll, and ended up doing so, despite my wife's request that she wanted to take her to the American Girl Store and let her pick her first one out with my wife. It's almost like she wants to get another go-round at mothering.

Sorry, got off track.

I didn't go NC with my parents but I had boundaries with the kids and my mom. My parents didn't like this. BPD mom told others about her terrible daughter who was keeping her from her grandchildren. She isn't very nice to me but somehow assumes she can bypass me and have a relationship with them. 

I've tried my best to avoid NC, because the guilt of doing so is crushing. Been trying the boundary thing, working on "us" thing and how we react, etc. But after last week, my wife is currently in the mindset of hoping to never see my mom again. At the moment I'm just trying to process the day by day, having no idea what the future will look like. And feeling like an idiot wrestling with the guilt of NC vs the guilt of even considering exposing my wife and kids to more.

The kids are older now and have their own boundaries with her. They are cordial with her but don't let her antics affect them much.

I'm at a loss to predict what it would look like with my kids in the future in relation to my parents. I know right now, their 2 and 6 year old minds know my parents are nothing but nice and spoil them, resulting in our 6 y/o thinking they love her more than we do (she's told me as much), since we have to set and enforce limits on her. I'm guessing that's probably not too uncommon of a thought young kids have about their grandparents, but in our current situation that's a heartbreaking pill to swallow.

[Methuen]

Gee Whiz, it's like there's a formula for a BPD mother, and we all drew the unlucky card.

"While I can't remember the exact words she used, my mom outright told me once that our daughter is her source of joy. Or something along those lines. I pray my girl doesn't feel that pressure any more than she already does."

OK this sounds like my mom word for word except it was our "son" instead of daughter.  We spoke to my mom about how obvious she made it that our son was her favourite, even around our daughter, and how hurtful that could be to her granddaughter.  Mom didn't care.  All that mattered was what felt good to her.  When our daughter was about 8 years old, she brought it up to us (parents), which means she probably had it figured out a lot earlier.  Bottom line, I can now recognize FOG in both our kids, but they have no idea about any of this (I am just beginning to figure it out myself).

I have a couple of thoughts for you:

1) Can your mom spend less time with your kids?  We had to figure stuff like that out back when our kids were young.  Also found ways to not let our kids drive with grandma.  (Never ever came out and told her that though.  That is important I think, because if s/he was told that, I'm pretty sure it would get worse; it can ALWAYS get worse, even when it seems like it can't.  Thankfully I have a very analytical and measured spouse who has always been my rock and tried to show me I need to remove the emotion to deal with my mom.  I could also trust him to not "blow it" with my mom by getting emotional and/or saying the wrong thing to her.  I seemed to be the one to do that, but back then I had never heard of BPD, much less recognized that my own mother had it, so I had no tools to learn to deal with the problem, and pretty well always reacted emotionally because it was so darn unreasonable and crazy.) 

2) In my experience, these "crisis" phases usually pass eventually, or improve a little, until the next one comes.  When she does eventually settle, it at least gives you breathing time to figure some strategies out in preparation for the next crises.  I say this to give you hope in your present crisis.

3) If you keep a distance (less contact, too busy, cold shoulder, going on holiday, or whatever else works for you), she will eventually have to find a different significant other to dump on.  This could be a different family member, or close friend.  But BPD's do HAVE to HAVE someone to scapegoat or dump on.  You can decide it doesn't have to be you.  I'm currently going through my own stuff with my mom.  Have gone LC.  It's been about 2 weeks.  I found out yesterday that she dumped her bf (about the 4th time over 10 years, but he never figures it out).  So that's how it goes.  If your mother has less contact with you, she will substitute some significant other to dump on.  My counsellor last week assured me that is what happens.  So for us kids of BPD parents, it's like "passing the buck" survival.  I call it self-care.  My counsellor also said some BPD's move around a lot, because they eventually burn out their close friends and SO's.  Not sure what other people on this board think about that.  But maybe this could be a strategy for you  i.e. withdraw (with compassion this board says), and let someone else take the bruising.  It doesn't have to be you.

Not sure if any of that is helpful.  You are not alone in this.  I'm hoping your partner is willing to learn about BPD, and the need to check emotions.  I think having a partner who is educated and understands BPD is super important, because your relationship with your partner has to come first.  My hubby comes to counselling with me, because we are both "stuck" with my mother.  (Not a nice word, but kind of the truth).  Your mother will not understand that your relationship with your partner comes before your relationship with her.  Mine never has.   They never get the hint, because the BPD prevents them from being healthy.

I am in no place to give advice because I am just now learning how to deal with my mom, now that our kids have left home.  And it's hard.  So easy to see possible solutions for others, so incredibly difficult to practice some of these strategies in my own personal situation.  I guess I'm saying I sympathize.

[Methuen]

I shouldn't have said "unlucky card" in my last post (first line).  That was the wrong thing to say.  It just "feels" like that when we are in the midst of these crises.  It wasn't respectful for empathetic of what they must also be going through.  It was an "emotional" thing to say, and I'm just beginning the process of learning to be less emotional.  My apologies if I offended anyone.

[Notwendy]

I think all grandparents want to play a special role with their grandchildren but respect that the parents are primary. My BPD mom would also love to be my kids' favorite and triangulate them with me, but fortunately we didn't live close enough to have frequent contact.

I understand the concern. I've read that a parent meets the child's needs. A parent with a PD sees the child as an extension of themselves- to meet their needs.

[ProudDad12]

Gee Whiz, it's like there's a formula for a BPD mother, and we all drew the unlucky card.

No kidding! So many similar stories here.

1) Can your mom spend less time with your kids?  We had to figure stuff like that out back when our kids were young.  

Yeah, we've been reducing contact over the years. Though I think that increases the tension on their end... we have gotten so much pressure, because nothing is ever enough. We used to live 7 hours away, and it drove them crazy. My mom once even discussed thoughts of suicide she had, along with how far away we live and how hard that is, in the same conversation. But she would swear it wasn't a passive aggressive guilt trip on steroids. We eventually moved back to the same state for [mostly] unrelated reasons, but then all of a sudden 2 hours away wasn't good enough. I swear, if we moved back to my hometown, she'd be upset we didn't move in with them. Anyway, our trips down are getting less frequent, which does not have them happy. The other sticking point with them is that we've been making more day trips down as opposed to overnight trips. Being only 2 hours away and having 2 small kids, it's just easier and makes more sense for a day trip, but they don't see it that way.

My mom loves to tell me how when we were kids, we never went more than 3 weeks without them taking us to our grandparents house for the weekend (they lived 2 hours away). I don't remember going that much, but my mom sure preaches like its the gold standard.

The biggest issue has been the fact we stopped sending our daughter down to stay with them for the weekend. We have our reasons, almost all of them related to her emotional well being, but if my wife can't say something "stings a little" like in this most recent conflict, there is no way they can understand our decision. They just get increasingly angry. To the point of waking up to 6am texts from my dad saying how we are trying to destroy this "special bond" my mom has with our daughter by not sending her down.

All that to say, yes, we've been decreasing contact, and unfortunately it's proving to be a double edged sword on results. And until last week we were in a spiral/snowball affect of wanting to see them less and less. We made a day trip down last month, and it was more or less a good day, but then in the last hour my sister decided to talk about how we needed to come stay for a whole weekend instead of day trips, and then before we got out the door my mom asked twice about us sending our daughter down (while holding her pitifully). This is after I've asked my mom to stop asking us in front of our daughter (since it's a sly way of making us look like the bad guys). I left angry, spent the whole drive home furious, and it makes me want to go see them even less.

And don't get me started on calling them. Any FaceTime call with our kids is spent with them asking our kids "When are you going to come see me?". It's dead predictable. Between that and the FOG I hate calling and thus don't near as much as I should in normal circumstances. I dread the anxiety before, the nerves during, and the bad feelings afterwards.

Not sure if any of that is helpful.  You are not alone in this.  I'm hoping your partner is willing to learn about BPD, and the need to check emotions.  I think having a partner who is educated and understands BPD is super important, because your relationship with your partner has to come first.  My hubby comes to counselling with me, because we are both "stuck" with my mother.  (Not a nice word, but kind of the truth).  Your mother will not understand that your relationship with your partner comes before your relationship with her.  Mine never has.   They never get the hint, because the BPD prevents them from being healthy.

I am in no place to give advice because I am just now learning how to deal with my mom, now that our kids have left home.  And it's hard.  So easy to see possible solutions for others, so incredibly difficult to practice some of these strategies in my own personal situation.  I guess I'm saying I sympathize.

I really appreciate it. That's one of the big values of this board; one of the few places people can talk about these things coming from similar experiences. Most people just don't understand.

Yeah, my wife has been going to counseling alongside me ever since my first appt. Her background is in psychology so she's versed in some of this, which makes for interesting discussion between her and our therapist at times.

I shouldn't have said "unlucky card" in my last post (first line).  That was the wrong thing to say.  It just "feels" like that when we are in the midst of these crises.  It wasn't respectful for empathetic of what they must also be going through.  It was an "emotional" thing to say, and I'm just beginning the process of learning to be less emotional.  My apologies if I offended anyone.

No offense here !

I think all grandparents want to play a special role with their grandchildren but respect that the parents are primary. My BPD mom would also love to be my kids' favorite and triangulate them with me, but fortunately we didn't live close enough to have frequent contact.

I understand the concern. I've read that a parent meets the child's needs. A parent with a PD sees the child as an extension of themselves- to meet their needs.

That sounds about right. My mom would never, ever see the issues with her mindset, and instead would be bewildered that we even see her "lovingness" as anything other than an asset for our kids. We live just far enough away that we don't see them every week, or even 2 or 3, but it's amazed me what can happen in the little contact they have. I think my mom only pretends to respect us as the parents, and even that is very generous for me to say. She makes a big show about getting my permission before my 6 y/o has glass of milk with her cookie (why would I care about a glass of milk?), but does not hesitate to let my daughter get on her phone and play with it however she wants, even getting on FACEBOOK at one point, despite us repeatedly expressing our dislike for our daughter being on my mom's phone at all.

[Harri]

Hi ProudDad.   

All that to say, yes, we've been decreasing contact, and unfortunately it's proving to be a double edged sword on results.

Double edged sword for how?  What are the pros and cons?

The biggest issue has been the fact we stopped sending our daughter down to stay with them for the weekend. We have our reasons, almost all of them related to her emotional well being, but if my wife can't say something "stings a little" like in this most recent conflict, there is no way they can understand our decision. They just get increasingly angry. To the point of waking up to 6am texts from my dad saying how we are trying to destroy this "special bond" my mom has with our daughter by not sending her down.

Why do you need to explain anything beyond saying a simple and neutral "No, that does not work for us", period end of discussion.  You can add a "I/We are not comfortable doing that" but beyond that, what is there to say? 

You are right it is  unrealistic to expect your parents to hear and understand your concerns on this issue.  It is unrealistic to expect them to be able to regulate their emotions and see the consequences of their words and behaviors, especially when they are already upset.

Your anger is appropriate here.  Your parents are who they are and unless there are some drastic changes on their part, little is going to change in terms of their behaviors as you know.  You are making changes for the better for you, your wife and your kids.      

This is after I've asked my mom to stop asking us in front of our daughter (since it's a sly way of making us look like the bad guys). I left angry, spent the whole drive home furious, and it makes me want to go see them even less.

I doubt this is something they are doing to deliberately make you look like the bad guy (though that is the outcome of what they say here).   They haven't a clue and if you try to explain how you see it it is going to backfire and conflict will escalate.  You asked them to stop, they have not complied with your request... now what?  What do you say when they continue such emotional ploys?  Same thing with the face time convos?  Do you end the call?  Say "Okay, we're finished here" and leave or hang up?  Don't let them see or sense your anger... that could be reinforcing their behaviors (the old - any response is good even if it is not the one you want).  Be matter of fact, neutral, understand where they are coming from and see their actions for what they are and respond accordingly.  Okay, so maybe you already know all that and do it... sorry, I got on a roll.

"When are you going to come see me?"

"Daughter does not take care of adult stuff.  Oh my look at the time.  Talk soon."  Hang up.   

I shouldn't have said "unlucky card" in my last post (first line).  That was the wrong thing to say.  It just "feels" like that when we are in the midst of these crises.  It wasn't respectful for empathetic of what they must also be going through.  It was an "emotional" thing to say, and I'm just beginning the process of learning to be less emotional.  My apologies if I offended anyone.

No offense here either.  I think of my family that way too now and I often tell myself you played the hand you were dealt and now you have new cards... play a new game.     Change it up Harri!

ProudDad, are you familiar with Mindfulness and how it can help with acceptance of things we can't change or control?

[ProudDad12]

Double edged sword for how?  What are the pros and cons?

Well, on one hand, we get a bit of peace from not seeing them or hearing from them as much, and our daughter is typically better behaved when we don't see them often. Plus we're just both on edge when around them. They can be fun (and good), but we never know what's going to strike when. Not to mention neither me nor my wife enjoy being around the whole song and dance of "acting like everything is OK". There ends up being varying degrees of fake and subtle underhanded remarks. So minimizing that is always a good thing.

On the other hand, they perceive us not seeing them enough (by their standards) as a slight, and they start to build up hard feelings. Things become increasingly tense. We start getting comments about how we can travel to other places but not to my hometown for a visit. Eventually, these built up feelings become part of the fuel if/when there is a blow-up with them.

Why do you need to explain anything beyond saying a simple and neutral "No, that does not work for us", period end of discussion.  You can add a "I/We are not comfortable doing that" but beyond that, what is there to say? 

My mom can't let things drop, especially in regards to this. She pushes and prods and emotions rise. I know the onus is on me to not feel the need to elaborate, but it just gets wrapped up in all the other emotional "stuff" I have to work through in relation to her. This is something I still have to work on.

I doubt this is something they are doing to deliberately make you look like the bad guy (though that is the outcome of what they say here).   They haven't a clue and if you try to explain how you see it it is going to backfire and conflict will escalate.  You asked them to stop, they have not complied with your request... now what?  What do you say when they continue such emotional ploys?  Same thing with the face time convos?  Do you end the call?  Say "Okay, we're finished here" and leave or hang up?  Don't let them see or sense your anger... that could be reinforcing their behaviors (the old - any response is good even if it is not the one you want).  Be matter of fact, neutral, understand where they are coming from and see their actions for what they are and respond accordingly.  Okay, so maybe you already know all that and do it... sorry, I got on a roll.

Nope, we don't typically do any of those things that make perfect sense, . If anything, I just get anxious to get off and try to do as such. But in my "normal", don't rock the boat, don't upset mama, kind of way. I'd love to get to a point where I can do any of those things without fear of retribution. Heck, we're in the current conflict with her because my wife simply told her that the pattern of forgotten anniversaries and birthdays (contrasted against the never-missed ones for everyone else) "stings a little". I cannot believe what my mom has spewed ever since, over something we didn't even expect an apology for.

And that really is the crux of the NC thing... absolutely nothing I say can make her see how her response was crazy and unacceptable. In her eyes those terms are reserved for us. So with nobody to back us up, and with her refusal/inability to be introspective, NC seems like the only recourse.

I really just want to simply tell her to take our entire text conversation to a non-bias third party (preferably counselor, pastor, etc.) who has no incentive to keep her happy. Have them read the whole thing, and then simply explain to her why my current actions are not about the forgotten anniversary. Though I'm not sure why I hope that would trigger some epiphany.
 

"Daughter does not take care of adult stuff.  Oh my look at the time.  Talk soon."  Hang up.   

I'm pretty sure my mom's head exploded just by me imagining saying that, haha!

Seriously though, seeing those practical no-nonsense answers really helps put things in perspective and illustrates just how skewed things are in my family's dynamics.

ProudDad, are you familiar with Mindfulness and how it can help with acceptance of things we can't change or control?

Only in concept, not detail. Sounds like something that I should look into. I've been struggling to focus on work for a week now and I'm open to anything that helps get the junk thoughts out.

[Harri]

    

Reading through your response, I smiled, nodded my head and laughed in a couple of places too ... I promise your mom's head will not explode from any of this. 

My mom can't let things drop, especially in regards to this. She pushes and prods and emotions rise. I know the onus is on me to not feel the need to elaborate, but it just gets wrapped up in all the other emotional "stuff" I have to work through in relation to her. This is something I still have to work on.

Oh, my mom was like this too!  Relentless in her pursuit to be right and to be the victim.   It was how she defined herself.  I left her to it.  She could be right in her mind and she could say whatever she wanted... I did not have to agree with her nor did I have to listen.  That said, I know this stuff is layered and multi-faceted.  It takes time and it will all come together.

And that really is the crux of the NC thing... absolutely nothing I say can make her see how her response was crazy and unacceptable. In her eyes those terms are reserved for us. So with nobody to back us up, and with her refusal/inability to be introspective, NC seems like the only recourse.

NC may be the right choice for you.  Regardless of whether you choose no contact or not, you will still need to work on self-differentiation and developing skills to handle people like your mom and on setting boundaries in addition to managing your stress reactions.  NC without working on these issues does not lead to healing.  It is more like avoidance which can lead to greater issues down the road.  Does that make sense?

Check out this article on Triggering, Mindfulness and Wise Mind and see what you think. 

 

[Methuen]

I'm open to anything that helps get the junk thoughts out.

OK, this really made me laugh!  Wouldn't we all like to rid ourselves of junk thoughts!
So Harri, I followed that link to mindfulness, but after looking around, couldn't really find the "how to".  Maybe I missed it.  Alternatively, I found this link:
https://www.mindful.org/meditation/mindfulness-getting-started/
It's free and worth exploring - anything to tone down the "junk thoughts".  Haven't heard that expression before, but I'm never gonna forget it now.

[ProudDad12]

Thanks. I'm reading up on this mindfulness too and am trying to give it a shot.

So in other news, things reared their ugly heads again tonight. Out of the blue text from my dad telling us that one day our children will be old enough to understand what happened, and someone will tell them. Told my wife that they are smart enough to see what she's doing, that this is what she wanted, and congratulations. Told me that I probably want it too now. To not feel like we have to respond, since he knows I don't care anyway.


They really know how to hit me direct. It kills me and eats me up on the inside that this is what they think of me. I want so bad to tell him it's not true. To make them understand that we aren't evil and ill intentioned.

But I keep reminding myself that nothing I have ever said has ever changed their minds. So I'm trying not to respond. One reason I'm whining to y'all again! I even typed out a response, just for my own sanity, that my wife said was well written and anyone should be able to understand. But I keep reminding myself that bucket of water I throw at the fire will turn to gasoline before it lands. So I'm trying to process the pain of knowing what my parents think about me and my wife and knowing I can't change it. Of course my silence will also just confirm his opinion. Talk about lose-lose.

[Harri]

But I keep reminding myself that nothing I have ever said has ever changed their minds. So I'm trying not to respond. One reason I'm whining to y'all again! I even typed out a response, just for my own sanity, that my wife said was well written and anyone should be able to understand. But I keep reminding myself that bucket of water I throw at the fire will turn to gasoline before it lands. So I'm trying to process the pain of knowing what my parents think about me and my wife and knowing I can't change it. Of course my silence will also just confirm his opinion. Talk about lose-lose.

I am so sorry to hear this happened.  I know how much it hurts and it can really tear you up inside.  I agree responding with defenses, explanations, and a desire to get them to understand would be pouring gas on the fire.

How can you turn this around in your mind?  How do you feel when he uses such emotional manipulation and talks of your wife the way he did?  How can you take this hurt and turn it into a new perspective that can bring about healing for you?  I know you might not have the answer to that right now so just tuck it in the back of your mind and let it simmer a bit.

In the meantime, we've got you.   

[Notwendy]

That's awful but I hope you can take the perspective that this is typical. I can imagine my father sending that to me, in fact, he said similar things. The thing is- I am not sure he really meant what he said. He may have been put up to it by my mother.

My mother manipulates people to say what she wants them to say. My father was enmeshed and an enabler. He did what she told him to do. I don't blame him because she would badger him and badger him till he gave in.

I can imagine your mom " you had better tell our son ... or else". My mom even gives orders " I insist you do this".

My mom got used to getting her way. If we kids didn't comply, she'd get Dad to get us to do it. And we did, because we feared losing his approval.

Since my father passed away, I don't comply. It's confusing to her. But she is persistent. If I say no- she starts manipulating until she gets her way. She can keep it up a long time. I can understand my father giving in just to have some relief from it for a while. I don't, but it's a difficult situation.

It's manipulation. If she can't get you to comply, she gets your Dad to try. I'm sorry, I know this is hurtful. But it's still manipulation.

[ProudDad12]

I am so sorry to hear this happened.  I know how much it hurts and it can really tear you up inside.  I agree responding with defenses, explanations, and a desire to get them to understand would be pouring gas on the fire.

Thank you, Harri!

How can you turn this around in your mind?  

Best I can think right now is emotionally disconnect as much as I can and try to see the statements for what they are. It takes a lot of effort.

How do you feel when he uses such emotional manipulation and talks of your wife the way he did?  

It makes me angry. And confused, and hurt. There's the side of me that's rearing up in anger, and then there's the side that's holding the door open for doubt, that we're just being ridiculous and deserve this. I don't really believe that, and I don't know where it's coming from. Maybe from my programming that my parents are always right and are not to be questioned.

I also get upset that the narrative keeps focusing on how we are wrong, how we are going to regret this someday, how grandparents need to see their grandchildren. When all this is supposed to be about is lines crossed in how my wife was treated.

It is exhausting trying to maintain clarity.

How can you take this hurt and turn it into a new perspective that can bring about healing for you?  I know you might not have the answer to that right now so just tuck it in the back of your mind and let it simmer a bit.

Yeah I definitely don't have the answer yet of how to turn it around, but if I can figure that out that might be a big key. It's made difficult by knowing there is love on their end, and at the same time me knowing they think what they do. I'm continually forcing myself to accept that I can't change what they think.

I had one friend last night remind me that responding gives them control over me. Another friend reminded me nothing I say changes anything. And yet both my wife and I found ourselves taking turns crying over it all. What's worse is I find myself talking about my parents, not even addressing the hurt my wife feels from it all that she's still trying to process. Worse still is that my parents' stubbornness and blindness to their doings actually makes us question what's happening, when we have the whole thing plain as day on our phones, seen by multiple others as sanity checks.

Just a perfect storm. I've always been a people pleaser, I've always tried my best to do what's right even when it was to my detriment. And I've always valued family. With these attacks framed around seeing our children, they manage to hit all of them. All I have to hold onto is the fact that I need to protect my nuclear family, and that's what keeps me going in all this.

I'm sorry Harri, you respond with these good and helpful questions, and I just jump off into another catharsis!

That's awful but I hope you can take the perspective that this is typical. I can imagine my father sending that to me, in fact, he said similar things. The thing is- I am not sure he really meant what he said. He may have been put up to it by my mother.

My mother manipulates people to say what she wants them to say. My father was enmeshed and an enabler. He did what she told him to do. I don't blame him because she would badger him and badger him till he gave in.

I can imagine your mom " you had better tell our son ... or else". My mom even gives orders " I insist you do this".

My mom got used to getting her way. If we kids didn't comply, she'd get Dad to get us to do it. And we did, because we feared losing his approval.

Since my father passed away, I don't comply. It's confusing to her. But she is persistent. If I say no- she starts manipulating until she gets her way. She can keep it up a long time. I can understand my father giving in just to have some relief from it for a while. I don't, but it's a difficult situation.

It's manipulation. If she can't get you to comply, she gets your Dad to try. I'm sorry, I know this is hurtful. But it's still manipulation.

Thank you Notwendy! I keep trying to remind myself the same thing. I'm not sure how aware she is of her manipulation vs just behaving in the way that has always gotten her results, but it's there. Though instead of telling my dad to act, she just cries enough until he does. And ironically then gets mad at him too, since he tends to serve as a wrecking ball.

To your point, we tend to hear my mom's words voiced through my dad and my siblings. I think it's less a reflection of marching orders and more a result of the enmeshment, with my mom being the center. The One. Surprisingly, we're 2 weeks in and my siblings haven't jumped in yet. We have no idea what to make if it, but trying not to delude ourselves with false hope that they don't agree with her this time. I'm sure the time is coming.

Thanks again to both of you. With y'all following our story, reading my long posts, and saying the same things I'm suspecting (e.g., I'd be throwing fuel on fire, that this is manipulation, etc.), it really helps me hang on to reality. It is so easy to slip and fall back into the quicksand of it all.

A friend who's wife went through something similar told me to block them, even for a couple of days. I'm trying to work up the nerve. The idea of a couple days of peace, of not being scared of my phone, sounds amazing. But there's also the probably deluded part of me that wants to hold the line open in case there is a change of heart on their end. Tomorrow being my birthday doesn't help. I'm going to be on edge all day, presented with the option of ignoring any wishes, or responding in kind, allowing a foot to get in the door. Our therapist's recommendation would be to do the loving, Christian thing (leaving the door closed to BS but not ignoring anniversarys, birthdays, etc.).

[pursuingJoy]

ProudDad12 wow. It hurt me to read what your dad wrote. I'm so sorry. We're in the middle of a manipulative silent treatment tug of war with my MIL and it hurts my husband who absolutely lives to be a good son. He just cannot understand what more he can do to make her happy. But it's not about him or what he's done.

Just for kicks, imagine what a healthy parent would do: give you space, make an effort to understand, take responsibility for their part, celebrate your wife, support you in protecting your family of choice, simply enjoy your visits and the time you choose spend with them. Gifts and favors would come without strings. You would feel little to no fear of disappointing them, because you would know their love was unconditional.

Talk about lose-lose.

I know it doesn't feel good, but from a wife's perspective, I'm so glad you're protecting your family. You have goals to work for. Stay the course. You're doing great!

[I Am Redeemed]

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