The pain of hurting yourself and others

[Woolspinner2000]

Last week DH texted that he wanted to take me out to eat. I said I couldn't that day, but maybe this week. I wasn't comfortable with the thought of going out to dinner with him at all, but I used the old delay tactic (aka manipulation so I wouldn't have to give a direct answer) to put him off. He didn't forget, and he asked me again. I felt obligated to say yes.

Why do I do that? It's the whole FOG thing that we often speak of on the PSI board. Obligation, the darn thing has a serious hold on me. Obligation to what? To please, to think of others, to never think of my needs and what I want. It is a merry-go-round called Obligation and Fear and Guilt. The ride never changes.

All week long I have been full of anxiety, knowing I was going to meet him at a restaurant tonight. To me it seems as if there is no point, because he told me he's done with me and that he wants to dissolve our 35 year marriage. I was confused-why ask me if you are done? I think it must be the pull back into dysfunction. I've struggled with headaches (migraines) all week which are a sure sign that I'm not dealing with my feelings but rather repressing them. I met with my T today, and he asked me why I'm doing this to myself, and I honestly didn't have a good answer except to say that it must be like an addiction, the never ending pull to stay connected to the unhealthy relationship bonds. The pull to have to do what others want, to not hurt them or their feelings, but to be perfectly willing to sacrifice my own health and well being to not hurt someone else. This I learned well from my childhood with an uBPDm, and it isn't serving me so well anymore.

I finally decided I needed to be honest with myself and DH and cancel our dinner out. The anxiety and need to please him was more than I could handle. Even after canceling the dinner though, I did not feel any better. I felt worse because I knew no matter what I did, I was going to hurt him or hurt me. I realized that it is not in my nature to be hurtful, so that made it worse because I don't want to hurt him or anyone. I hurt myself if I go, exposing myself to more pain and no hope for positive change in DH. It was more painful than I imagined to face the truth that the only choices seem to be pain and hurt. Not sure how to get past this one yet.

Wools

[I Am Redeemed]

Hi Wools

Boy, do I identify with what you wrote. I have been caught for years in that same mindset: if I don't do this or that, I will hurt someone else, and I would rather do things I don't want to do than hurt someone.

The problem with that, of course, is that it both fosters resentment and makes me feel angry or depressed because I don't know how to stand up to Obligation (or the other two of the Big, Bad Three).

I don't pretend to have it figured out yet, but I am working on it. I don't know if you have read the Cloud and Townsend book Boundaries, but what you wrote reminded me of something I read in it:

Myth #4: If I Set Boundaries, I Will Hurt Others

...the problem is that sometimes you see boundaries as an offensive weapon. Nothing can be further from the truth. Boundaries are a defensive tool. Appropriate boundaries don't control, attack, or hurt anyone. They simply prevent your treasures from being taken at the wrong time. Saying no to adults, who are responsible for getting their own needs met, may cause some discomfort...but it doesn't cause injury.

In this case, your treasures would be your physical and emotional health. Setting the boundary was to protect you when you knew that you were not in a position to handle a dinner outing with him. He may be disappointed, angry, sad... but he is not injured. His feelings are his responsibility.

And it's not like you just woke up one day without any reason at all and just decided "hmmm, I think I am going to move out today. I'm over this marriage thing."

No. You hung in there until it was obviously not a wise choice to continue to do so. Even then, as you said, he's the one who decided he wanted out without looking at what his part would be in repairing the relationship.

You are not obligated to protect someone from their feelings. I get it, if you're like me, you prefer "win/win" outcomes, and I think you are seeing this as "lose/lose". But it doesn't have to be, if you can change your perspective.

 

[zachira]

Wools,
It is so frustrating and heartbreaking to not want to hurt another person yet know that being around this person is not good for your heart and soul. You have a lot of compassion for your husband yet you know being around him will stir up a lot of painful emotions, because he will do what he has always done: which is fail to see you for who you are and blame you for how badly he feels. I sometimes have taken comfort in refusing to being taken in by my family members with BPD knowing that being my best self can help others to behave better and to take responsibility for their own behaviors. Your husband is still leaning on you to make him feel better, and though it may not seem like he is doing better, there is hope that he will become a better person in the long run, now that he is on his own. Good for you in honoring your feelings and holding yourself and your husband to higher standards. Can you quietly sit with the uncomfortable feelings until they pass and you start to feel a bit lighter?

[Wicker Man]

It was more painful than I imagined to face the truth that the only choices seem to be pain and hurt. Not sure how to get past this one yet.

This was a horrible Catch 22 you were thrown into.  I think you made the right choice by cancelling -but I can imagine how hard it must have been. It is amazing how difficult it is to break 'decorum' even when we know we should. 

I don't know if you use a wheel or a drop spindle -but either way it is a wonderful way to lose oneself -so calming.  I hope you can make time these days to revisit your hobby. 

Drafting = happy

[MeandThee29]

I struggled too. It's hard to see that boundaries are part of healthy relationships, and when you don't have them, you actually damage both yourself and the relationship. I also said no one-on-one after a time.

Trust is important too. If you can't trust the person with your feelings, you have every right to set a boundary. If they were willing to prove themselves and accept accountability to rebuild trust, it would be different. But if they deny your need to rebuild trust and see it as an insult, you have your answer.

The first time I held a boundary was terrifying. But I had promised a host of people that I was going to that when it came up again. So I had some accountability. When there were more challenges, it was easier.

We decided to break up over the phone because I wouldn't meet in person, and it was better that way.

[valet]

hey Wools, you are not alone here. it took me soo long to let my ex go, to admit to myself that she had lied to and manipulated me, to acknowledge that she had created a twisted and self-serving narrative to feed everyone around us, that even despite the love she showed me, the happy moments we shared, the things we accomplished together... she was a person that I could never have the type of relationship I really needed with.

i was living in a selfish fantasy, doing whatever i could to manipulate the world around me in order to sustain it, limitlessly almost, like i couldn't understand that i was human, that my brain could be broken down by stress and tied in knots until i barely resembled someone that could interact with society in a sustainable way... and most importantly, that it would take years and years for me to feel 'normal' again, to understand that i'm an alright guy that tried his best, that hell, that's what we all are

it seems that you've come to the place of understanding that this level of communication with him is too much right now. that maybe you're pushing yourself too far in the name of being kind to others. so i think its great that you're acknowledging the big picture here, despite how painful it may be in the present. remember to notice the pain and remind yourself why its there. there's a reason why people say things like 'the only way out is through'. it's true. stay strong. you can do it!

[Woolspinner2000]

Thank you to each of you for your helpful and encouraging replies. 

Myth #4: If I Set Boundaries, I Will Hurt Others

...the problem is that sometimes you see boundaries as an offensive weapon. Nothing can be further from the truth. Boundaries are a defensive tool. Appropriate boundaries don't control, attack, or hurt anyone. They simply prevent your treasures from being taken at the wrong time. Saying no to adults, who are responsible for getting their own needs met, may cause some discomfort...but it doesn't cause injury.

In this case, your treasures would be your physical and emotional health. Setting the boundary was to protect you when you knew that you were not in a position to handle a dinner outing with him. He may be disappointed, angry, sad... but he is not injured. His feelings are his responsibility.

This is a good point, I am Redeemed, and I wasn't able to see the 'healthy' side of my choice. As we often talk about on PSI, we learn these things from childhood quite often, especially when we had a BPD parent. In one of my very early T sessions, my T spoke about what I was responsible for and what I wasn't. Being responsible for how someone else feels or decides to feel and respond to something I have done is their choice, not my responsibility.  Boy, do I need to keep that mantra in my head.

Your husband is still leaning on you to make him feel better

I hadn't thought about that, Zachira in relation to what DH is doing right now. My assumption was that he is doing his normal vacillation but really in the end it may well be his need to feel better about himself that is driving him. Not that he is consciously aware of such a choice, but I have seen the pattern repeat itself over and over. Tonight he decided to call me to "catch up," and we did have a couple things to discuss about our son's upcoming 25th birthday. During the conversation, he asked how I was doing and I said I had been working a lot of hours. He immediately said he works a lot of hours too, and then went on to describe what he has been doing. I had picked up right away that he switched it right back to himself and wasn't able to turn towards me though that conversation. I just let him go on, and noted there was no point to saying how I was. I know he felt better and thanked me for the conversation. Fortunately we don't talk on the phone very often at all. It's better to text.

Wicker Man, thank you for the encouragement. The reminder to spin is good! I just recently sold my old wheel to help pay for a new wheel, and this week I finally got it going and tried my first wool on it. It is a beautiful wheel, made in New Zealand from wood that grows there. It's going to take some getting used to, but it is a dream to feel how smoothly it spins! I do need to keep focusing on taking care of me these days. That is such a foreign land for me, self care. Many sighs...

MeandThee29, my T is constantly reminding me to get safe and stay safe. Those are the rules. I wasn't going to be safe emotionally with DH, so you are right when you speak about having trust in a person. The history, especially the past few years, has caused the trust I thought was there to be split open like a chasm between us. It's okay to have that boundary to protect myself from any of the abuse that was going on and hasn't changed.

Thank you, Valet for being understanding.

maybe you're pushing yourself too far in the name of being kind to others. so i think its great that you're acknowledging the big picture here, despite how painful it may be in the present. remember to notice the pain and remind yourself why its there. there's a reason why people say things like 'the only way out is through'.

Over on the PSI board our resident Board Parrot brought up a quote by Pete Walker that encouraged us to just feel the fear without reacting to it. The hurt I was experiencing was really a fear, of rejection and abandonment and anger. Facing those fears and seeing them for what they are may help me to get through this process.

Maybe I need to be asking myself what feeling is behind that fear of hurting myself or someone else?

 
Wools

[valet]

Over on the PSI board our resident Board Parrot brought up a quote by Pete Walker that encouraged us to just feel the fear without reacting to it. The hurt I was experiencing was really a fear, of rejection and abandonment and anger. Facing those fears and seeing them for what they are may help me to get through this process.

Maybe I need to be asking myself what feeling is behind that fear of hurting myself or someone else?

 
Wools

hi. don't mean to step on your toes here, but I think this mentality of constantly questioning our own memories when being confronted with the possibility that we were treated the way we were can be unhealthy. At some point there has to be that acknowledgement. And once we make it we need to understand that our lives will be drastically different. I think a lot of us fear facing the prospect of that kind of change, even if it is what's best for us.

Imo all these feelings are a bi-product of the environment. if we change the environment we can change our feelings. It is not universally true but I think that it holds some water, especially when we know that a particular factor is the cause...

anyways, yes. We should face the fears. I think this is significantly more important than wondering why we have them. The Pete walker stuff is kind of the first steps... The warm-up. I think it's a good practice