How do you shine a light on negative things on kids with no Money?

[Angie59]

Hello everyone!  

I'm just writing this to pick everyone's brain on the ongoing saga (I'm sure many will remember my threads as I've been on here for awhile), regarding the safety and well-being of my grandson.

I will start with saying that my son is broke - barely making his bills and some not making at all.  When he was with his ex-uBPD girlfriend, he tried everything and anything to make her happy which resulted in him paying all of the bills (house, utilities, food, etc) as well as running up charge cards in order to "keep her happy" with all the things she wanted.  He is a grown man and it may sound like I am blaming her for taking him for the ride of his life; however, I do understand he is a grown man and he made these decisions and has to live with it.  It is just a sad situation to see him in now, as his credit is very poor and he is definitely in a deep hole financially.  He does have a lawyer on retainer - cost $1500.00; $500 of which is best friend gave him to retain him and he has the other $1000.00 to pay - bill sitting there with all the rest of the them.  Just sad to see him in this situation.  

They are at a point right now where he downloaded from the Internet (don't know why the lawyer charging $1500.00 did not provide this for him), which is an agreement between himself and his ex-uBPD showing the co-parenting visiting schedule, if either wants child support, holiday schedules, etc...all of what goes into making decisions, visitation, etc... I have never been in this type of situation so I am wet behind the ears regarding this.  He tells me once it is all filled out, if she agrees to everything (slim chance there), then it would go to his lawyer who would notarize and sign it and submit it to the court.  End of story.  If they cannot come to an agreement over what each one wants, then it will go to litigation and he will have to retain another lawyer, thus more money he does not have.  

All of this is very scary to him as well as me because of the welfare of his son, of course.  My son has had communication with the bio-dad of his ex-uBPD's daughter, whom my son knew since she was 4 months old.  She is now 5-1/2.  Bio-dad told my son the other day that he found out (didn't state how), that ex-uBPD has been dropping off the 5-1/2 y/o at babysitters whenever she has her.  This came to his attention and made him look into it because he said the only person she keeps saying she misses and wants to see is Mommy; which did not make sense to him because if figured she would be with her even more so now with my son out of the picture (no one to keep watching her while  she went out as my son did when they were together).  This makes us wonder, and it is probably so, that when she has her daughter and son (my grandson) that he also is being carted off to babysitters.  

We (myself, husband and older son who lives with us) including my son, have made a decision, and it was a painful one to make that we would no longer be seeing the 5-1/2 y/o on the advice of my counselor.  There were quite a few inappropriate sexual things that occurred to each one of us (don't know about my youngest son), but to myself, husband and older son that were discussed with my counselor.  My counselor by the way is a social worker who deals in youth and family counseling and treats children often.  She is generally a light-hearted, doesn't jump the gun type of person.  When I spoke to her of what happened, she became very adamant that we stop the visits altogether, that we are now in a different role (as she used to be treated by us as a grandchild after being around us all this time), and that we be "done" with the whole thing.  She stated she has a mother and a father and you all need to be done for your own safety.  She added that this needed to be shared and emphasized to our younger son as well.  When I asked her what she felt the reason was for her behaviors, she said there was no real way of knowing for sure but she has either been exposed to things she should not be seeing or is engaging in some sort of behavior, but she could not say for sure.  I said, "you sound more serious than I have ever heard you be," and she replied, "I am."  So, this was all shared with my husband and both sons.

When my younger told his ex-uBPD that he needed to back off from taking care of her daughter, telling her he needed to concentrate on his own son, which was almost impossible to do when the daughter was around and he felt he needed to back off in no more overnights and caretaking as he is in a different place now and these things should be between her and her bio-dad.  She went nuts and said, "You better not bale on me tonight, I don't have anyone else for her, and don't worry about talking to bio-dad, I will talk to him myself."  He took her that night since it was late notice but this was supposed to be the last time.
We'll see.  She may very well bully him into doing it again.

He is so fearful because they are going through trying to get an agreement together and she will be most likely difficult to deal with now that she is so angry that he pulled his childcare for her daughter.  She does not see it the way everyone else seems to - he is just a resource for her to take care of her daughter - she never seems to think of what is best for her children.  We have also noticed some obvious alienation going on with our grandson.  

I know things in court have to be "proved" of course.  I also have heard it is not a good thing to bad talk your ex in court or to the lawyers.  However, this crazy schedule she has made up for our grandson and him bouncing back and forth like a ping-pong ball seems to be taking a toll on him.  He has definitely been "different" since all of this occurred.  

It seems so unfair that you can know these various things that are harming innocent children, and because of the Almighty dollar, there is just not much you can do about it.  I feel so sad (sad at the loss of seeing 5-1/2 year old as she was a big part of our life), but is clearly on a collision course, and am sad for my grandson and what he is going through as well as sad for my son seeing him in this situation.  

Any ideas on what actions can be taken?  It seems like money rules everything, so I'm feeling pretty hopeless about the whole thing as is my son.  

[worriedStepmom]

With some people with BPD, it works to draw up an agreement together and just have a lawyer look it over and file it with the court.  My H and his exw did this for their divorce.

When my H decided he needed primary custody to protect SD12 last year, the lawyer wrote up paperwork and filed it with the court.  His ex was so afraid of going to the hearing that she ended up signing a paper saying she'd abide by whatever he wanted.  Saved us the cost of hearings.

Other people with BPD are either not as afraid of authorities or are determined not to agree with anything so that they can have their way.

I don't think it is wrong for your son to try to save money and come to an agreement on their own, but he needs a plan for what to do if she disagrees.  If she also doesn't have money for a lawyer, then he may be able to get away with representing himself, and just consulting the lawyer to make sure he filled out the paperwork correctly and understands the laws.  If he has a good relationship with his SD's dad, they could probably do some work together (sharing evidence, etc).

I'm glad he is finally taking steps to try to get a legal agreement.

[MeandThee29]

We started out trying to negotiate until I called a halt to it. We were amateurs, and I was done with the personal attacks that spun up as a result of the discussions. I had booked a session with my lawyer ahead of time and knew what to watch for, and it went over the line.

I sent the excerpts to my lawyer who turned it into an actual agreement. This did save money versus starting from scratch, but of course it wasn't cheap.

In my case, discussing an actual, legal agreement with the two lawyers involved went much better than self-negotiated. Expensive, but I know I'm coming out better than I would have on my own.

[Turkish]

I don't think it is wrong for your son to try to save money and come to an agreement on their own, but he needs a plan for what to do if she disagrees.

This. My ex seemed worried about going to court which I found odd because she got a TRO on the boyfriend before me and her BIL after me.  My L wrote it, I shared it. It was tweaked minimally, and my L filed with the court.  Plan B should be considered, however. 

That is so sad about the little girl... believe your T. All of you should. People can end up at the very least arrested given odd accusations, and the mother is dysfunctional to say the least. 

[livednlearned]

I think I missed a development ... your younger son (GS's dad) was initially afraid of doing anything to rock the boat. Now he has agreed to stop taking the 5 year old, or at least said so to his ex?

If so, that's a big deal!

Reward him with praise or admiration for finding the strength and standing up to her. He will need loved ones to boost him up when he's getting taken down by his ex.

Do you think your son would alert the bio-dad of the 5 year old every time there is a child care situation? That would at least give him an out when he feels bullied into providing care for both kids.

About shining the light on negative behaviors, documentation is huge. If your son agrees, perhaps you can help him organize how to streamline that work.

I kept a Google calendar tracking events, big and small. Doctor appts, dates my ex canceled visitation, dates of certain emails (you can pin emails to calendar dates in Gmail, or at least you could, so that they are linked), and then when it came to sorting through the narrative, I printed it in agenda view so that everything came out in chronological order. It was a life saver.

I also kept a running Google doc with observations, conversations.

And I created a 3-ring binder with tabs, and sorted emails into those sections. I bought an app that allowed me to print out text messages in PDF format and categorized them, too.

Something that might also be worthwhile is to have your son save his receipts just in case he needs to refute a false allegation by showing a time stamp of where he was. She hasn't made a serious false allegation yet, which is a good sign. But custody cases with a BPD sufferers can sometimes create ripe conditions for false allegations.

Organizing my own documentation saved me thousands of dollars. I also asked my L how I could cut costs and she said, Don't send me emails because I charge by 15 min increments to read them. She also charged more to open attachments, so I didn't send her anything unless it was critical. I also printed out what I could -- she stopped mailing me anything. My ex was a former trial attorney so I felt compelled to hire a good L, but I also asked for her junior partner to do stuff that was more clerical. And if I had questions that were straightforward, I called the cheaper lawyer.

What are your thoughts about your son telling bio-dad of 5 year old what's going on with her sexuality?

Do you think your son would allow you to help organize some of the documentation for him?

[Angie59]

Thank you for all of your replies.  They were informative, helpful and very appreciated!   

Yes, any allegations against any of us scare the hell out of me!  I think the first target would be my youngest son as he has been the one who would have had opportunity by keeping her so much overnight, but he also revealed to us that the last 2-1/2 years of their relationship was not so great, whereas there was little conversation, treating him poorly and never home, sometimes even staying out all night and not returning until the next morning.  He said now that she had revealed the cheating going on (which would seem pretty obvious to us all, I think), he said looking back he feels he was in a state of denial and facing it would mean giving up the family he so desperately wanted. 

Now, I do believe he has his eyes open, but every once in awhile he regresses a bit.  I guess that is normal.  He tends to see the good in people, which is certainly not a bad quality, but in this situation and in view of all she has done to him, I think he needs to question and ponder motivations for all she says and does. 

We (my husband, myself and older son) have all gave him kudos about standing up to her about not taking GD5 anymore.  We recognized to him how hard that must have been and how hard it was to have to listen to her go off the deep edge about it all and face more anger about it in the future.  We all reiterated how proud we were of him.  That is one thing I surely am thankful for is that we have a loving supportive family and I certainly cherish it!  I guess this was a big part as to why it was so difficult trying to understand his ex-uBPD as it seemed impossible to make any real connection with her or her parents for that matter.

I think it would be a wonderful idea for him to team up with the GD5's bio-dad because they have a common goal and information that may help them both.  I feel at least some of what is happening with GD5 (being put with different babysitters), has to be happening with our GS3 as well since the days are the same, but her daughter in her care more often since they are doing 50/50 with GS3 and she has full custody of GD5.  I have suggested this to him regarding working with bio-dad of GD5, but he said he didn't want to and didn't give any reason.  I thought that it might be something else to make ex-uBPD even angrier.  I'm just guessing though.

As far as sharing with bio-dad anything about his daughter's sexual behavior, my husband, myself and both sons have agreed to keep this between the four of us.  We all fear we would be planting the seed in her head if it got back to her somehow, or who knows if bio-dad (which I don't really think), but am just afraid that bringing it up would come back to bite us in the butt, so we are keeping quiet about it all.  My thoughts are we are probably not the only ones she has done anything to.  With all of her behavior problems at home and at school, as well as acting out sexually, I feel this poor little girl is on a collision course.  How will she ever get any better if mom doesn't change?  I know it is not for me to worry about anymore, but we all love her still  as she was a part of our lives for so long. 

Documentation is being done, but not as thoroughly as what livedandlearned had done.  Thanks so much for the tips which seem to really make things much more organized and clear.  My son asked a while back if I could help him with all of it and I have been.

There are so, so many things that my husband and I witnessed when they were together that were so wrong of her to do regarding the kids, especially her daughter.  If I can say one good thing about her, she was very capable of giving them the "things" they needed such as clothing (always bought the next season's clothes ahead of time in the next size) so she was prepared for that, as well as providing their favorite foods and buying lots of toys.  These things were all great, but we all know that they do not substitute for an emotional connection, showing love and affection and spending time with them, which she literally seemed unable to do.

This is what I wish the lawyer/courts would know, but how in the world to get this across - the real, every day occurrences that were so damaging - and now who knows what is going on - that could be revealed.  I'm thinking perhaps since GD5 is beginning kindergarten this year that her behaviors will lead someone (counselor, social worker, etc) to take a closer look at what may be going on?

[Angie59]

Feeling very afraid for my son (and grandson) who spent the day with us all day and evening yesterday.  I am so attached to that little guy, which I guess leads me to worry about the outcome of what is going to happen with the "legalization" that he and his ex-uBPD girlfriend are supposed to be going through.  So far, my son gave his semi-retired lawyer $500.00 down and he still owes an additional $1000.00 which I guess $1500.00 is his "retainer" fee.  What I don't get is this:  My son actually printed out off the Internet the form that will be used for the agreement between he and his ex.  He had one 30 minute consultation with this lawyer which was free, so if my son printed out the document and is filling it out, then what is this $1500.00 for?  I guess, should they agree on everything, looks it over and files it with the court?  Just that costs $1500.00?  My son said if they don't agree, then they would have to go to litigation, which means a different lawyer and more $$$.

Does this sound right to anyone out there?

Two big problems here - my son is broke as a result of his trying to keep his ex-uBPD happy all the time wining and dining and Amazon packages coming to the house almost every day!  I know - his fault - but he somehow thought it was a way to keep her with him, I guess. He is still paying on the engagement ring he bought her that she claims she "lost."  Yeah right!  She probably got pretty good at the pawn shop she went to with it.  Sorry, but that's what I think happened. 

Yesterday, before coming over to our house, he had to pick up our grandson at her place and was dreading it because GD5 (ex's daughter) would be there and he figured she would ask where he was going and could she come too.  He thought he would have to explain this to her somehow and she would be hurt.  As is turned out, she was glad to see him but didn't even ask if she could go with him, which tells me she is where she has wanted to be all along - with her mom.  His ex-uBPD and boyfriend stayed in kitchen, didn't even acknowledge him being there and when GD5 asked him if he wanted to see her bedroom, he yelled out to them, is it okay if I go upstairs to see her bedroom?  They ignored him and did not even answer!  She is very angry with him now because of the boundary he made recently about no longer being a caregiver to GD5, but placing himself in a more appropriate role now that they are no longer together and that he needs to concentrate on his son (see previous thread).  She has not answered any texts he has sent to her and giving the silent treatment because of it.   

Very, very afraid (as he is as well) to what she will do next in retaliation, as this is her usual pattern.  She will get back at you!  With no money to support his legal process, other than the $1500.00 he has spent on this guy who has not done anything, he is really afraid of what she may do. 

Since the court has changed their views from the past and goes more with 50/50 custody, do you think there is anything she may do to keep this from happening and getting full custody?  I have, in the past, been the target of her retaliation and she can be vicious.  My son is dragging his feet with the presentation of the paperwork to her - don't even know legally what she is doing on her end - so it sits in limbo.  I recite the Serenity Prayer in my head over and over in my head each day, but still so worried about my son and my little guy. 

I actually bought Divorce Poison and started reading it and it's so scary I had to stop!  I know some day this will all be behind me, but for now, it's feeling light a nightmare.

My T said, when I expressed some fears (before the silent treatment from the u-BPD) what can she do to him?  She is going to look so bad on paper.  When I asked what she meant, she said the schedule for one (which the u-BPD) made up because it's a horrible schedule for my grandson (too much back and forth).  Also her job hopping history, the bar she works at.,   Do any of you see what she means and believe it to be true?  I'm not quite sure I'm totally getting what she is saying. 
 

[livednlearned]

if my son printed out the document and is filling it out, then what is this $1500.00 for?

Where I live, $1500 wouldn't go very far with an L. Anything your son can do for free (printing out his own agreement) is good counsel.

There are filing fees and court dates that will get scheduled, plus the L makes sure that legal technical details are adhered to, even if things don't go to court.

However, your son may want to call and confirm that he'll be getting an itemized bill showing how the retainer is used. Many lawyers bill in 15 min increments, and mine itemized things she did for free.

My son said if they don't agree, then they would have to go to litigation, which means a different lawyer and more $$$.

Did this lawyer say that's what would have to happen?    

Very, very afraid (as he is as well) to what she will do next in retaliation, as this is her usual pattern.  She will get back at you!  With no money to support his legal process, other than the $1500.00 he has spent on this guy who has not done anything, he is really afraid of what she may do.

What kinds of things has she done in the past to retaliate? Not just to your son, but to other men in her life? That can be a goldmine of information about what to protect (and guard against).

Also, many of us have to get creative in order to pay Ls. I was able to use a low-interest credit card as a retainer when I ran out of cash. Worth every penny when you have the right L.

Since the court has changed their views from the past and goes more with 50/50 custody, do you think there is anything she may do to keep this from happening and getting full custody?

What tends to happen a lot in our cases is the opposing side uses stonewalling and obstruction. That might be a good question for your son to ask L: is there a way I can either neutralize or use BPDx's stonewalling and obstruction to my advantage?

I actually bought Divorce Poison and started reading it and it's so scary I had to stop!  I know some day this will all be behind me, but for now, it's feeling light a nightmare.

You're in the worst part of it right now, where she is bullying and you are gathering information, getting ready to change the status quo (standing up to her). I'm glad you found this site because it does make a big difference to know others who have gone through this kind of ordeal and made it through the other side.

Divorce Poison is an important book, although not all people with BPD use all of those tactics. My ex was fairly severe and he used some but by no means all of those tactics. You might notice that your son's ex uses 4 or 5, and the more skilled he becomes at deflecting those tactics, the less she will be tempted to use them.

Another book that is helpful is Don't Alienate the Kids by Bill Eddy. It will help you take a good look at how you model positive behaviors for your GS. I was wound so tight during my custody case I could barely breathe or eat. Reading Don't Alienate the Kids let me see what I had control over -- powerful stuff that can neutralize alienating tactics.

My T said, when I expressed some fears (before the silent treatment from the u-BPD) what can she do to him?

 

Therapists are not lawyers. I had both a good L and a good T, and they do different jobs, and have limited skills in areas they don't practice.

The better question might be, "How can you be a positive influence for your son and GS while dad navigates this mess? He is struggling to stand up to her -- you can help him stay grounded, regulated, focused, encouraged."

She is going to look so bad on paper.  When I asked what she meant, she said the schedule for one (which the u-BPD) made up because it's a horrible schedule for my grandson (too much back and forth).  Also her job hopping history, the bar she works at.,   Do any of you see what she means and believe it to be true?  I'm not quite sure I'm totally getting what she is saying. 

It doesn't look good, no. But courts/judges will look at both parents and split the difference. Also, a lot of courts tend to start the clock once both parents are in front of them. Let's see how this plays out, kind of thing.

My T would say, "L needs to do this, do that." And finally, my L said, "With all due respect to T, she isn't an attorney. What she's recommending doesn't apply to this situation. I would use your time with T to focus on things you can do to be a good mom during divorce, how to take care of yourself when someone is trying to destroy you. I'll help you with the legal strategy and she will help you get through the pain and anguish."

[Angie59]

Thank you livednlearned,

As always, great insight and great advice!  Much appreciated!

[ForeverDad]

Unfortunately, we can't comment on a pre-printed parenting form.  We'd have to first learn the terms throughout the agreement before supporting or criticizing it.  However, odds are this agreement is one designed for reasonably normal parents, probably including typical phrases such as "reasonable" telephone contact, "mutually agreed" exchange locations and details, etc.  Those alone are loopholes wide enough to drive a truck through by a determined sabotaging ex, not to mention all the other boilerplate language.

Splitting: Protecting Yourself While Divorcing Someone with Borderline or Narcissistic Personality Disorder is also inexpensive but excellent to guard oneself from common pitfalls facing those of us venturing into the legal realm of court-speak.  Courts have laws, case law, procedures, policies and unwritten defaults that have been developed (accumulated over decades) that to us normal parents don't seem to be very much like common sense.

The more informed you and your son are, the better you maybe can avoid the worst of the surprises and shocks yet to come.

[Angie59]

Thanks ForeverDad for the response.  Again, many great points that were brought up that I never thought of.  Fortunately, my husband and I have been happily married for 35 years and our two sons are our own, so we have never had to go through this type of thing.  It is all new to us and very scary because of who our son is dealing with.

I don't know why my son is dragging his feet on everything and it really drives me crazy.  Many will think or say, it's his deal, let him handle it, and I do truly see the truth in that.  I love my little grandson more than life itself and am worried that his procrastination may hurt the whole situation in some way and he may get less custody of him, or lose altogether because he doesn't have the $$ to go through all of this.  My husband and I are unfortunately not in a financial situation to help him much either.   

I have mentioned to him, as well as my husband, to give his lawyer a call.  We have said it to him several times over the past two weeks, just to update him on what is going on, and letting him know what type of person he is working with here.  That is a point I believe is going to be vastly overlooked.  Bad talking the other person I know is not the best thing to do.  However, this is a real mental illness we are talking about.  Then you get into proving this.  How do you prove this when it will of course cost lots of $$ probably and she quit seeing her counselor quite awhile back.  So it's like any other mental illness - you can't just label her and expect him to believe it. 

I definitely believe it - she is almost textbook BPD.  I have been the target of her retaliation and have witnessed more inappropriateness and meaness than I have in my 60 years on earth.  But, again what good does this do in a court of law? 

Knowing that she is utilizing many babysitters during her time she has the kids is what is really killing me because she has very poor judgment regarding who she leaves her kids with.  At the end of the day, a young girl appeared at the door when we were babysitting our grandson (while they were still together) and no one even said she was coming!  We asked who she was and she just said her name and she was there to watch the kids.  I looked at her, then at my husband, and we went into the other room and called my son at work.  It didn't take long for us to figure out she was higher than a kite!  My son came home from work and told her over the phone she could go home. 

This, and so much else, is what I am so, so afraid of.  Not sure what I'm expecting my son to do, other than talking more with his lawyer, he does have him on retainer for something!  I don't even know if he will be able to help in any way regarding all this.

Just feeling afraid and kind of defeated before it even all happens.  Even 50/50 custody was agreed upon, the kids are still subject to all of her craziness and never, never putting those kids first! 

Scary stuff!

[livednlearned]

Your son has a lot going for him -- a family that cares about GS, a mom who is here researching, learning. This is one of the best, if not the best forum on the Internet for dealing with BPD and legal stuff. I had an excellent L who understood BPD but it wasn't until I arrived here and began learning from friends how to turn things around.

Even if your son gets 50/50, she will likely create problems and your son will be in a position to enforce his own custody order.

Help him build strength. Build him up so he feels like he's making progress. Even the smallest step counts. He retained a lawyer and said no more care-taking to the 5-year-old. He is trying.

He's been bullied and deeply hurt and probably feels shame about the situation, plus lots of confusion and maybe even a total loss of self worth. Validating his feelings will help him learn to trust himself again and build trust in your relationship. It may be tempting to increase his anxiety and fears so he hears how bad things are -- this might feel good as you unload your anxieties but it will only add to his burden. He needs to know that you are there for him even when he stumbles and especially when he drops the ball.

It's very likely that he is not calling the L because he knows he doesn't have enough money, and knows that even with the custody order at 50/50 his problems won't disappear overnight.

Look for improvements in GS now that he is spending less time with the 5-year-old, or look for improvements as GS spends less time with mom. Point out how validating GS's feelings is having a positive effect. Keep learning and reading and sharing those skills with your son so he sees a path forward.

I know how horrifying and scary it can be to love someone with BPD, and I'm so sorry you have to live through this and worry about your son and GS. Maybe set aside the word scary for now and think about other words you can tell yourself. Or other phrases that make you feel powerful, like you can do this.

You are really smart and resourceful and are doing so many right things. Yes, it is awful and yes, you are strong.

I believe you are capable of doing this.

Pay attention to how you feel reading that and be the person who inspires those same feelings in your son.

[Angie59]

Thank you livednlearned!   

Those were beautiful and meaningful words and I appreciate the kudos.  That is exactly what I plan on continuing to do with my son and myself as well. 

It makes a big difference though hearing it from someone else and gave me the lift I needed!   

[ForeverDad]

I don't know why my son is dragging his feet on everything and it really drives me crazy.

I'm typically a relaxed person.  I would rather call it time-challenged than the accusing 'procrastinator' term my ex insisted upon once she shifted me into the bad category.  It crushed my spirit.  Somehow I've managed to hold onto my parenting but not much more.

Well, I did manage to get through the divorce and following years getting the loopholes in my orders addressed.  But in other ways I've had a hard time getting my life back.  (Yes, why am I still here so much?  Most members get their lives back mostly on track and peer support visits are less frequent.)  Also, I had been an elder in my congregation until the family conflict became unmanageable and I had to step down.  It's been 15 years and I still haven't gotten back to anywhere close to where I was before it all imploded.

You may have to assist your son to start with the little things and gently accumulate progress with small(er) increments?

[Angie59]

Hi ForeverDad! 

I wish I could do exactly what you're saying and assist him (gently) in doing things.  He has no problem with "time-challenges" (I like your term), at his job.  He creates projects on time or even ahead of time, gets kudos (which always result in good raises) for his work - so no problems there.

However, this whole thing with the separation:  doesn't make a much-needed call to his lawyer to even ask important questions and hasn't fininshed filling out the form for the legalities of the separation (kids, child support, etc., ).  He was also asked by his ex-uBPD if he would please gather all of his non-bio daughter's things together in some boxes she left downstairs so she could come by and get them and everything is still (since yesterday when we were there) all as it has always been.  Her shoes everywhere, toys everywhere, and even her dirty laundry in his hamper!  She asked him to do this two weeks ago.  Due to circumstances which brought about his boundary of no more caretaking of his non-bio daughter of 5-1/2 years old due to some worrisome behaviors, the ex-uBPD has been giving him the cold shoulder and the silent treatment.  I believe his time challenges are fear-based of her.  So, so sad if that's it.   What do you think?

[worriedStepmom]

Procrastination is a coping mechanism when someone is flooded emotionally.

Your son isn't taking these actions yet because it hurts too much too do them.

[livednlearned]

Procrastination is a coping mechanism when someone is flooded emotionally.

Your son isn't taking these actions yet because it hurts too much too do them.

So true.

There is also this article on psychological stages of divorce that might shed some light: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=271676.msg12577883#msg12577883

[Angie59]

Hello livednlearned and worriedStepmom:

Your replies were very helpful.  I think part of my problem is that my son is a clone of his father.  My husband and my son are so alike in so many ways its scary!  They both put things off and are so laid back and anxiety-free where I am a very anxious person and am very action-oriented (sometimes too quick to take action and resent it later). 

I have learned much from all of your replies here and am grateful to be part of this board.  I read the article you recommended livednlearned and found it to be very helpful.  I also feel that you hit the nail on the head worriedStepmom, as I don't stop to think sometimes how he is feeling and just want him to get things done.  I am going to make a conscious effort now to do this and just show my support.

One of the reasons I probably feel so anxious about the ex-uBPD is because I know and have seen what she does to get back at people and I feel like my son is sitting there with this big target on his back just ready for her to take aim at.  She can really be vicious when she wants to be.  I don't want him to be hurt anymore by her.  The fact that he doesn't have any $$ to work with also makes me feel anxious as well.  Regardless of all of my own anxieties, I know I cannot change him or make him do anything he is not ready to do, nor should I try. 

Just an example is his ex-uBPD having him go through and get everything of his non-bio daughter.  She knows that will be painful for him to do, so why doesn't she do it?  She got all of her own stuff out without his help.  He hasn't even changed the code to his house yet - which means she has 100% access to it any time she wants, so that would be a perfect time to go in there and get her daughter's things.  I feel it was deliberately done to just cause him more pain.  She said, "so I won't be going through your house and stuff," as the reason for him to do it.  My response to that is you didn't have a problem coming and going and going through everything when you were getting your stuff, so what's so different now? 

It's also kind of like her cheating on him and telling him about it - went on for over a year, then cheating with the guy she is now with, treating him terribly by closing off all intimacy, affection, conversation, etc., for the last 2 years of the relationship, demeaning him in any way she could, and then saying to him when she first left, "when I pick up the kids, I won't have (new boyfriend) with me because I wouldn't disrespect you that way!"

All of a sudden you decided not to disrespect him?  You did nothing but disrespect him for two solid years!  One thing I will never, ever understand is the thought process of a BPD.  It can be so absurd and nonsensical and hypocritical that it angers me to no end.  This is perhaps one of the hardest things to do in my life.  To try to control my anger to what was done to my son (and is still being done) and let him handle it in his way because it is so opposite to how I would handle it.  I know I am not him - it just can really get to a parent seeing their child endure all of this pain, and now the finality of it is she sucked him dry financially and therefore he has no $$ to fight for his son, who he loves more than anything.  Just so, so sad and so mean.

[ForeverDad]

Often men handle things differently than women.  Not a strict rule, there are always exceptions.  Think of maps and directions.  Like many men I'm comfortable with "north, south, east, west".  Women are often "turn at the stoplight, red house, yellow mailbox, specific restaurant or as station".

I recall back during my married years, I had a cancer found.  Would have been deadly but fortunately in my case it hadn't spread.  My perspective was that I'd start worrying if I got a bad prognosis after the surgery.  On the other hand, her perspective was that she immediately worried for the worst because I was dying until doctors said it hadn't spread.

I'm not saying either perspective is right or wrong, just different.  My examples may not precisely apply in your son's situation, the conflict history is what has impacted him so much.  As much as possible, have a support role with him, focusing on working with him rather than reminding him of all that hasn't been done, that positivity helps.  As the saying goes, you get more flies with honey than with vinegar.

[Angie59]

Hi ForeverDad!

Thank you for your reply and it does make sense to me - women certainly do handle things differently and see things differently than men and I do get that.  I do so want to support my son and I think myself, my husband and my older son are all doing their best at doing that. 

My biggest problem in all of this is the anger that the ex-uBPD's behavior toward my son, who has been intimidated by her for 5-1/2 years, still impacts him because she knows she can literally manipulate and bully him. 

If you remember my previous posts, his ex-uBPd's 5 year old daughter has been exhibiting some strange "sexual" type behaviors that my T, as well as now my son's psychologist, both said the same thing and that is to not allow her back to your house and to tell your son (our younger son) the same thing.  Allegations against anyone can be made by the way she is acting and they both agreed with the same thing - that she has been either exposed to things she should not be or engaged in things she shouldn't be, but either way, be done with it.  Because of the strong bond that my son and her have had in the past, the bio-dad (who does not know anything about the sexual activity and our decisions to not allow her into our house as well as my son's boundary to not allow her into his house or be her caregiver anymore), suggested that they (the bio-dad and my son) together on a weekend when they both have the kids and go to lunch, play in the park, etc...This sounds absolutely perfect to me, as it does to my son as well.

Just today we got a call at 6:30 a.m. with my son telling us that her new boyfriend would be dropping off my grandson to preschool and my son said no, I will drop him off myself, which he did.  When she brought him over so he could do this, she actually said this:  "This situation with you not seeing "N" (her daughter) is not going to work!  She says she misses you and wants to know why she can't come over.  I was thinking you could pick her up at my mom's since "O" (my grandson) will be there as well and bring her over to your house and have dinner with her, then call me later to pick her up." 

Wait - am I crazy here or what?  He made a boundary with her..., he said he would visit with her during the weekends bio-dad had her and spend time with her then but no more babysitting.  Her reply to that is "this is not going to work."   Whaaaaat?  Is she not the one who pulled the rug out from everyone's feet, upset their whole worlds, took over and literally abandoned the kids for the first 2 weeks she was gone, had the new boyfriend sleep over the first night the kids stayed at her place, and so, so so, much more -------  and taking care of her daughter is not going to work?   Please...someone tell me I am not crazy here!  She said she wanted this to be an every Wednesday night thing as well.

So, my son at first agreed, then texted her from work and said it wasn't going to work out due to him having to bring work home and that the original plan of weekends with bio-dad's visits work best for him. 

She then said, "well, then you can explain all of this to "N."

Please, please tell me I'm thinking right here - but how do one tell their supposed partner in a relationship that they have cheated on them, do not love them any longer and haven't for some time, hate the house they live in and now has feelings for another man and wants out of the relationship after 5-1/2 years of nothing but dedication by him?  And now this is HIS responsibility to take her daughter and if you don't do it my way, then you better be explaining why to her?  Excuse me, but shouldn't that be your place to do since you are the one who changed the whole entire situation for everyone and made the decisions you made without no regard for what this would do to your children whatsoever?

Sorry Foreverdad, you probably didn't expect me to go on about all this but it just happened today and it's taking up way to much of my head space as usual.  My son still fears her.  He has no money for litigation and is fearful of what she could do to him regarding their son in retaliation for not babysitting and keeping her daughter as she wants him to.  This is not, please believe me, for the sake of her daughter.  She simply wants a "free" night to do whatever.  I have seen this game played over and over and over for a very long time and she wants it to continue.

I should understand, but somehow my mind is just not getting it.  Do these people just have an endless supply of nerve or what?

[worriedStepmom]

The thing about boundaries is that they are about us, not about them.

His boundary is that he won't watch the 5-year-old anymore.  His ex can - and will - continue to ask him to do that.  It's up to him to keep his boundary strong and intact and to continue to say no.

It's crazy-making to try to make someone else stop doing something (trust me, I've been there!).  All you can do is protect yourself and remove yourself from situations.

[livednlearned]

My biggest problem in all of this is the anger that the ex-uBPD's behavior toward my son, who has been intimidated by her for 5-1/2 years, still impacts him because she knows she can literally manipulate and bully him.

You could be very powerful for him, providing a counter-narrative of self-respect to the one he must have for himself, where he feels weak, can't stand up to her, isn't putting himself or GS4 first.

What if you were to try something like:

"Last night when you said no to her, I was so impressed. It's hard to say no to her when she uses guilt and intimidation and obligation to manipulate. I would find it hard, too. What was it about last night that made it possible to say no? I could learn from you."

In your own words  

Because he is likely in a shame spiral, feeling beaten down by this woman and easy to push around. For you to chime in that you're so exasperated, angry, etc. will feed into his internal dialogue that he is weak, and now letting you down, too. It becomes a loop where is starts to undermine himself even more, making it harder to hold his boundaries on something this important.

If he is coming to you with, "This is yet another rotten thing she's doing/saying." Maybe try, "I notice a change in you. When this first started to happen, it was really hard to say no to her. I can see you getting stronger, and it may not be a linear path. There will probably be wobbles and a steps backwards, but wow -- I admire how you're making these tough changes and working toward a better life for you and GS5."

You might already be doing this -- and believe me, I know how hard it is to do something like this when you're in a full fury!

The goal is to help him find the strength to hold these boundaries against someone who will surely test him every single time.

[ForeverDad]

The ex suffers with BPD or other acting-out PD, whether diagnosed or not.  Her not "understanding" what his boundary is, or casting it in weird ways, is to be expected.  Do you actually expect her to reason?  Of course not!  The ex will twist and transform anything and everything into scenarios that match her definition of reality - her reality as ex sees it.

Probably there will be no end to the crazy-making.  Accept it is what it is, learn to identify it, develop skills and boundaries to deal with it, and don't lose sleep over why she ignores obvious reality.

[Angie59]

Good morning everyone! 

Once again, I thank you for all of your replies.  Sometimes it may appear that I have not "grown" or "learned" from things, but I want to say that through this board and the many helpful people who have responded to me, I truly have grown and changed.  Sometimes my head is a bit hard and it takes times, but there are important realizations and changes I have made for myself with the help of all of you.

One important thing that I have achieved if "acceptance" of how my son's uBPD is, that it is truly a mental illness and that to expect her to be normal, or to behave like a good parent would is an error on my part.  Should this be another type of mental illness, I would not expect normal behavior in certain areas, so why her?  I have begun to lose a lot of the anger toward her which has only helped me feel better and not dwell on her inappropriate responses and strange behaviors, and accepted this is part of the illness and do not expect anything different.  This is huge for me!   

My son is a different story, however.  Myself as well as my husband and our older son have given him a lot of encouragement, support and kudos when he makes boundaries with her.  I have been keeping his "documentation" up.  We have been there for him with his very, very early a.m. calls when he wants to share what the last "crazy" encounter with he and his ex-uBPD consisted of, and offer support while half-asleep!

The problem is his inaction, and I do realize this has been addressed in prior responses from you kind people.  Maybe this is something I need to learn "acceptance" with as I have with not being so angry with the uBPD in her actions and behaviors.  I guess the difference comes from the fact that time is of the essence here and he is making bad decisions, almost like nothing is even happening.

He was asked to get together all of GD5's things from his house.  Everything there is exactly the same as before; he has done nothing to get her things together.  One of the things that his phone calls never include is helping me with the documentation.  I feel like, hey bud, this is YOUR documentation, how am I supposed to be filling it out when you are the one living it?  He spends money on dating, which is of course expensive, while it should be going into a fund for legal expenses.  He has 0 money set aside to even cover the remainder of the bill he owes his present attorney.  He never calls the L with any questions he may have.  He has not completed the form so that they can sit down and go through it to try and agree on things and file with the court.  He tells us, "he is fine regarding not being with the uBPD any longer, and that it is really a relief, and he is ready to move on with his life." 

Well, I'm thinking, if that's true, I guess that's all fine and great, but what about taking care of what is right now going on - she can approach you with anything at anytime and you won't be prepared!  He "seems" to go through life like it is just as normal as could be and doesn't have a care in the world!  I know it has been discussed that the procrastination (sorry Forever Dad), or we'll say putting off things just drives me crazy.  I guess one answer would be to "disengage" myself from the whole thing, but we have concerns for our GS3 and his well-being as well as the fact that he pulls you into the situations and drama whenever he wants to, then afterwards goes on his merry way as we all sit here concerned, angry at him, and baffled by his ways. 

Any suggestions on how to handle this?  Just so everyone knows:  we have offered support and lent an ear consistently, have asked occasionally (not pestered) him about talking to his L, did you get the form filled out yet, etc...  We get a lot of, "yeah, I need to do that," but I think that is just a pacifier for us.  It doesn't seem that he really doesn't have any intention of doing anything we suggest at all! 

We worry about our GS3 since he is in the same environment as his sister, who seems to be suffering greatly from her mother's uBPD, so we don't know if there is anything going on with him, which I would think there would have to be since he is in the same environment.  We have brought up him seeing a T for himself as well as what he can do for his son because of the other parent's behaviors, etc... and it falls on deaf ears.  It's enough to make you want to tear your hair out.  If our GS3 were not in existence and it was just him involved, it would be so much easier to "disengage" and let him fall and learn to get back up again, even if it meant over and over again, but who is going to watch out for this little guy?  Any suggestions on what we can do as grandparents?  I spent almost an hour on the phone with a child abuse hotline yesterday for questions I had - end result was they wanted me to file a report, which I didn't do because I don't know what the consequences are - I'm afraid the children would go to foster care or something and I simply don't know what is going on with my GS3 - but if something is going on with his sister (sexual behaviors discussed with T), then what may be going on with him?   I don't want to make a mistake, file a report and be sorry for it later because it turns out he gets taken away from my son.  Any ideas or suggestions are appreciated as always.  Thanks!

 

[livednlearned]

I often feel that the answers are never easy, so best to start with that  

Your son seems to be discharging his anxiety onto you so that he doesn't have to carry it. If you read any of Harriet Lerner's books (Dance with Anger, Dance with Intimacy, etc.) they pretty much all describe how triangulation like this can work at the family level.

It is always a gamble to protect yourself to that extent but might be worth trying if you can tolerate the quiet -- basically, not knowing what's going on.

What you are hoping to do is refocus the anxiety your son feels back on himself. By telling you the most recent crazy thing his ex did, he probably feels like it's lightening his load in some way, which feeds into his passivity.

"I have to stop you there, ______. We love GS, and we love you, and this is heart breaking. And you know if you need us to do something, we'll be there for you. However, hearing about this and that and not seeing changes is breaking our hearts and we have to put a ring around this so we can move on with our lives. When you have an action plan and want us to show up, you let us know. We know this is hard what you're going through and hope you know we would do anything if you asked. Listening, tho, and being helpless bystanders -- we can't do that anymore."

Or, an alternative is to let him speak and then change the topic. "Sounds rough. Hey, I'm off to meet so-and-so and we have to get going. You know how traffic can be this time of day."

My mom used to dump all kinds of anxiety and stress in my lap and I'd absorb and twist myself into knots and feel protective and scared and angry and anxious for her. Meanwhile, she would do nothing for years. I think telling me how upset she felt was her way of doing something. Whereas for me, it was more like, "Ok let's get the ball rolling here."

I think you have a tough decision to make, although it doesn't have to be a one-way ticket. You can always dial things back altho I would give your new approach a good shot before deciding it isn't working.

I know how hard it is when there is a young child involved. You also have limited options unless you are willing to try and get custody, which can be tough for grandparents depending on what state you live in and the kinds of abuse going on. Often, it has to rise to specific levels that the court finds persuasive.

[Angie59]

Thank you livednlearned for your reply!  You really shed a new light on what could be going on with him.  If that is what he is doing, (unloading his anxieties onto us by telling us things that have happened, but not acting on anything), then all I can say for myself is I already have plenty of anxiety without his adding to it, that's for sure! 

I read your reply to my husband, who found it very interesting, and agreed that he might just be doing that.  The difference though between myself and my husband is that he won't sit and ruminate on it all day like I do.  Once whatever is said is said, he let's it go and out of his mind and goes on with his life.  Unfortunately, that isn't how my mind works, but I am working on changing that.

Part of all this is I think my son's personality in general.  He was side-swiped a while back and has yet to get information back from the body shop who was supposed to get an estimate for him to have it fixed.  Since it wasn't his fault, he would have no out-of-pocket cost, rental car given to him while repairs are made, but the body shop hasn't called him back.  He has been driving around with his car wrecked for at least a month now, and hasn't followed up with this place!  You are probably wondering, why do I care?  I really don't care since it's his car, but it is so aggravating when it is about things that could potentially effect my grandson. 

That is really where the hangup for me is.  I spent an hour talking this weekend to a child abuse hotline person and explained the situation with his ex-uBPD's daughter and her sexual behaviors and told her I have seen some changes in my grandson such as regressing in his behavior (he will sometimes crawl on the floor and make sounds like he is a baby and wants me to pick him up, not potty-trained yet at 3, which is really mom and dad's fault, throwing a fit when telling him we need to change his diaper), all makes me wonder what could be going on.  Knowing his sister has been exposed to something - whatever that something may be - and having him in the same environment gives me cause to be concerned. 

I am certainly taking your suggestion and keeping it in mind - especially if something is said to me by him regarding the ex-uBPD.  Thank you for your interest and taking the time to reply.  It really helps!
 

[worriedStepmom]

not potty-trained yet at 3, which is really mom and dad's fault, throwing a fit when telling him we need to change his diaper), a

Just as an aside - neither of my kids were potty-trained at age 3.  My daughter was perfectly capable of using the potty by 30 months, but she flat-out refused. (In desperation, when she was 3.5,  I told her all babies came home with a rule book, and her rule book said I would go to jail if she was still in a diaper.  Yes, I'm awful, but yes, it worked.) 

My son struggled more.  It took until 3.5 for him to have enough control to get rid of the diapers.

[livednlearned]

It wouldn't be unusual if he's suffering from depression, or even PTSD.

Not taking care of things that seem easy to fix -- that's also a sign of being overwhelmed, which is how it feels to be in a relationship with a high-conflict personality.

If you're like me, you perhaps over-functioned as a parent. It's soo hard to sit on my hands and take care of my own needs first.

Do you notice if your son tells you what's going on more than his dad?

[Angie59]

Good morning everyone! 

worriedStepmom, I have to say, I'm glad you didn't land in jail and your daughter listened about the potty breaking!  LOL!  That was funny, I've had a few of those moments myself.  Thank you for letting me know your experience with your children about potty breaking.  I didn't realize that this age children are still not at that point, so that makes me less concerned.  You also gave me a good laugh to start my day!   

livednlearned, I feel pretty silly for not even thinking about the possibility of depression and/or PTSD.  Why I guess I haven't thought about it is because he keeps telling us that he is doing just fine.  I probably already mentioned it, but I have the book Splitting, Divorce Poison, and many other self-help books about dealing with high-conflict people, including helping to make yourself whole again.  I have two Kindles which these books are on and even offered him to take one of my Kindles home so he could read any of these books.  He always says he doesn't feel he needs that (nor does he feel he needs to see a T for his healing process), because he tells us he is doing fine.  I realize that perhaps that is not true.

Feeling overwhelmed could certainly be a possibility as well.  I know he never misses work and does very well at his job, but maybe that is all he can really take care of right now? 

Yes, I was a parent who definitely over-functioned.  Looking back over the years, he has always been a procrastinator.  I can remember him being disorganized at school (elementary years) and I did everything I could possibly think of to help him get organized - keeping a planner and checking it before we left school to make sure he had everything he needed, different colored folders for different subjects to simply put that subject's papers in, even talking with his teachers on how to help.  He always ended up with empty folders, planners not filled out, and his homework every night took from the time he got home from school until when he went to bed (with just a break for dinner and a bath).  It was so frustrating because I would assist him and oversee him with it so there was no relaxation time for TV or whatever for me.  When I handed the task over to my husband, instead of keeping his nose to the grind, I would find them both distracted by the TV and watching it - only to quickly get back to the book when they saw me come around the corner!  He is a clone of his father. 

He has opened up to my husband about many of the things that have occurred through the break-up, but yes he probably calls me more often.  It's somewhat concerning sometimes because it almost sounds like he says different versions of things to myself versus his aunt he speaks with off and on who lives in Florida.  He is hard to figure out, and although he has had these putting things off traits all his life, there surely could be more to it now after 5-1/2 years with such a disappointing and challenging relationship.  I just really wish he would take the time for himself to at least see a T, but nope, says he doesn't feel he needs that.  What's a mom to do?

[Harri]

This post reached the post limit and has been locked and split.  Part 2 is here: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=339321.0

Thank you