Suicide threats are back Part 2

[stolencrumbs]

Mod note: This discussion is a continuation of the following thread: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=338832.0

How are you stolencrumbs?    How are you feeling?    Have you managed any self care to try and recharge your batteries?    I hope you got away for a little while and did something just for yourself.

I'm doing all right. The main thing I feel is irritability. I just get irritated with everyone over pretty much anything. I mainly handle all of this by just shutting down. I guess I think at some point in the future I'll deal with whatever I feel. Obviously that's not healthy. I'm trying some self-care today. It probably doesn't sound like self-care, but it's what I most want to do right now. I'm going to sit in my apartment, turn off my phone for a long while, and do a whole lot of nothing. I've finally got my apartment feeling like it's kind of mine, so I'm going to try to enjoy that. Watch some bad TV, play my guitar, nap whenever I feel like it, cook some food. Just try to worry about me instead of other people. That's the plan today. Classes are about to start again, and that will make my life much busier. So I'm trying to enjoy doing nothing in particular.
 

interesting about the diagnosis btw.  how did she respond to the news?

She seems to just deny it and think the T is wrong about it. Her T brought it up when we were there together. My wife's immediate reaction was "I don't have that." T tried to soften the blow a bit. She explained it was a spectrum, and that she displayed some of the traits really strongly, and others not as much, and that the label isn't important, but it can be a helpful framework for looking at and working through things that are going on. My wife hasn't talked with me about it all since then. Our T's do talk to each other, and my T has confirmed that her T does believe she is BPD.

How is your sister in law?

She is out of ICU. She had apparently been laying in bed drinking for about three weeks straight. She was severely dehydrated, which was the proximate cause of the problems. So she seems to be out of imminent danger, but the slightly longer range prognosis is not good. She lives with her husband and mother who are both alcoholics. She is not healthy enough to go to a residential rehab, and doesn't want to go anyway. She is not eligible for a liver transplant because she is still drinking. She won't let her dad and stepmom help. She is likely to die sooner than later unless there is some massive change in her, and thus far, near-death experiences have not led to that change.

did you end up going over?

I did not go over on Friday.
    

and did you end up working in the yard?

I did go over and work in the yard yesterday. Saturday has been the day for that. For the last couple of months, I've done yard work, then we've had dinner, talked for a bit, and I've left around 9:00. Last night was fine until I started to leave. Then the crying started and we had a repeat of the conversation about her deciding to kill herself. I was there for another hour and half or so. I agree with you 100% on needing to control the narrative. I have good intentions of doing that, but they go out the window in the face of crying and suicide talk. I definitely get trapped doing things I don't want to do. I'm working on that.  

• I believe you have value and potential regardless of what happens between us.   I hope you see that too.
• I can't comfortably talk about the future with these suicide threats between us.  it raises the intensity too much for both of us.  
• I care for you and will be supportive when and where I can.   I am not able to think clearly when the conversation turns to you ending your life.    I'm going to discuss this with my T and need you to discuss it with yours.

I think I've tried each of these, and I can give you her responses. To anything in the neighborhood of the first suggestion, she tells me not to patronize her. She isn't interested in hearing that her life has value outside of us. She is just informing me of her decision. Her life without "us" is intolerable and she's not going to live it. Any push back I give on that is met with anger. She shuts it down really quickly.

With the second, she says "fine, we don't have to talk about it. I'm just telling you where I am." In an email the other day she actually said that if she doesn't hear my thoughts on "trying" and "moving forward together" that she would "proceed accordingly" with her plan.

On the third, she gets upset that I want to talk about it with my T. She talked about this last night with me. She doesn't understand why I would talk about it with my T. She thinks that's a betrayal of some sort, and a person who doesn't know her can't possibly help me with how to do things in our relationship. She claims she has talked with her T about it. Again, I doubt that.  

So I am able to say those things, but I don't have the sense they saying them does much good.

Thanks so much for responding and breaking it all down a bit. It is very helpful.

[AskingWhy]

SC, I am so sorry for what has happened.  At least both of your Ts have been notified of what is happening.

Living in a dysfunction FOO keeps people in their dysfunction.  Without getting out and having the needed perspective, moving ahead is difficult. 

 

[AskingWhy]

Double post.  Deleted.

[babyducks]

hi stolencrumbs,

I think the irritability makes sense.   it's your body's way of telling you the stress is too much.    I am glad you unplugged and watched dumb tv for a while.   here's hoping it helped.

She seems to just deny it and think the T is wrong about it. Her T brought it up when we were there together. My wife's immediate reaction was "I don't have that."

sounds like she knows what it is it,.. and what the diagnosis means.   her reaction is interesting, in that it underscores what is said around here a lot,  the actual diagnosis doesn't help.   also shows the level of denial she is operating with.    that's too bad.

I understand the long term prognosis for her sister is not good.    that must have been quite the family of origin for both sisters to be suicidal.  

I did go over and work in the yard yesterday. Saturday has been the day for that. For the last couple of months, I've done yard work, then we've had dinner, talked for a bit, and I've left around 9:00. Last night was fine until I started to leave. Then the crying started and we had a repeat of the conversation about her deciding to kill herself. I was there for another hour and half or so. I agree with you 100% on needing to control the narrative. I have good intentions of doing that, but they go out the window in the face of crying and suicide talk. I definitely get trapped doing things I don't want to do. I'm working on that.  

You are doing good work SC.    Hang in there.    what I am thinking when I say control the narrative is identifying ways to avoid the double binds she creates.   my ex was a genius at framing things in ways so that every option that was available was unsatisfactory.     it was hard for me because I continuingly looked for the logical solution.    that wasn't her goal.   so we were arguing (so to speak) on different grounds.  I often said to my Ex "I don't accept that premise."    or a more blunt "I don't agree with your conclusions".   or an even more blunt "I don't like your thinking around this."  what I found to be true for us is the longer I let her present her thoughts and conclusions the more fixed they became in her thinking... she might not have convinced me but she certainly talked herself into it.

I think I've tried each of these, and I can give you her responses. To anything in the neighborhood of the first suggestion, she tells me not to patronize her. She isn't interested in hearing that her life has value outside of us. She is just informing me of her decision. Her life without "us" is intolerable and she's not going to live it. Any push back I give on that is met with anger. She shuts it down really quickly.

my sense of what you describe is that she pushes on a topic, she wears you down  until eventually in the middle of the emotional storm you run out of gas.   am I close to what happens?    I've been in the middle of those emotional storms,  I know how draining they are.   when she says not to patronize her did you respond or did you drop it?    I'm not there facing what you face but I would continue to carefully and gently push back.

I know this would be much more palatable for you if she would agree in any way with the things you say.    That might not happen.    I know you understand she is keeping you drawn into the relationship by what she is saying and doing, and she is keeping control of the relationship by threatening you.    Since she identifies so strongly as part of you... the idea of losing you must seem like a mini death to her.    

With the second, she says "fine, we don't have to talk about it. I'm just telling you where I am." In an email the other day she actually said that if she doesn't hear my thoughts on "trying" and "moving forward together" that she would "proceed accordingly" with her plan.

eeeeshhh.   that's tough.    if I have the details right, with the T in the room you asked for a time out and limited contact,   two visits a week and 4 or 5 emails/texts.   she doesn't like that so she is pushing hard against that boundary in ways that have worked for her in the past.    the two visits a week?   are they on neutral territory?    public places?     when she said if she doesn't hear your thoughts on the 'trying' she will act on her plan, did you respond?    what is her response when you say we had a plan about time out and limited contact and that you don't want to break that agreement?  

I don't think there is a perfect way to respond or any way that might reach her.    I am thinking that responding and pushing back carefully and thoughtfully like you are is a way to put some emotional space between the two of you.    every time she tries to close the emotional space and cling to you, to respond back in a way that opens a little emotional space.    to do that you would have to work to strengthen your distress tolerance.     to step outside and away from the situation so that while you can monitor and participate without being emotionally drawn into an unproductive conversation.

On the third, she gets upset that I want to talk about it with my T. She talked about this last night with me. She doesn't understand why I would talk about it with my T. She thinks that's a betrayal of some sort, and a person who doesn't know her can't possibly help me with how to do things in our relationship. She claims she has talked with her T about it. Again, I doubt that.  

I doubt it too.     and I think she may call it a betrayal but it's again about control.     the only opinion/thoughts that are going to be allowed here is hers.

seems to me this is walking a fine line... pushing back against the inappropriate behavior and maladaptive coping tools but not pushing back so hard that it becomes dangerous.   that's walking a tight rope.    

my two cents
'ducks

[Cat Familiar]

Her only playbook for getting your attention is the Fear, Obligation and Guilt play. It’s unfortunate that whatever brought you together originally is an historical remnant.

And with you differentiating by getting your own apartment, she is more heavily relying upon Fear.

Previously she has mentioned divorce. She’s unhappy where she currently lives. What do you suppose is the key element that you represent for her?

In the past, she didn’t want you at the house, other than cleaning up the chaos she caused or working in the garden. Yet now, it’s all about “us”. How did that change?

[stolencrumbs]

I understand the long term prognosis for her sister is not good.    that must have been quite the family of origin for both sisters to be suicidal.

Indeed. She also has a brother who did kill himself about fifteen years ago.

my sense of what you describe is that she pushes on a topic, she wears you down  until eventually in the middle of the emotional storm you run out of gas.   am I close to what happens?    I've been in the middle of those emotional storms,  I know how draining they are.   when she says not to patronize her did you respond or did you drop it?

Yes, that's pretty much what happens. I guess the difference is that now I run out of gas a lot faster. I dropped it when she said that. I don't know if that was the best strategy, but I don't have the energy to push back very hard, and doing so seems to escalate things. So I just dropped it.

eeeeshhh.   that's tough.    if I have the details right, with the T in the room you asked for a time out and limited contact,   two visits a week and 4 or 5 emails/texts.   she doesn't like that so she is pushing hard against that boundary in ways that have worked for her in the past.    the two visits a week?   are they on neutral territory?    public places?     when she said if she doesn't hear your thoughts on the 'trying' she will act on her plan, did you respond?    what is her response when you say we had a plan about time out and limited contact and that you don't want to break that agreement?

That is roughly the way it worked, except we didn't come to any agreement while with the T. We only decided that I needed space, needed to get my own place, and that we needed to talk about how often we'd be in contact. We talked about that later, and I don't think we had any agreement. It was just me telling her that's what I would do, while she told me to move back home. So I don't think she looks at it as breaking any agreement. She is just pushing me to do more than I want to do.

The visits are not on neutral ground. I almost always go over to our house.

I don't think I responded when she said she'd proceed accordingly. It was in an email and I did not reply to it. I saw her the next day and had the conversation I mentioned in the last post.  

every time she tries to close the emotional space and cling to you, to respond back in a way that opens a little emotional space.    to do that you would have to work to strengthen your distress tolerance.     to step outside and away from the situation so that while you can monitor and participate without being emotionally drawn into an unproductive conversation.

This seems right to me. I definitely get pulled in by her emotions, and to some extent still see my role as being a caretaker of her emotions. She is pretty explicitly asking me to deal with her emotions and make her feel better. And I am still doing a good bit of that. And yes, I need to get better at tolerating her being upset and not taking on the responsibility of trying to make her feel better. I'm better at not doing that, but I'm still not there.

I talked with my T today. It was helpful, but I don't really feel like I have a clear plan. The main goal is to offer less emotional support, and to encourage her to get support elsewhere--calling her parents, her T, her grandmother, etc. But I don't think she's going to do that unless I stop caretaking. She doesn't have a reason to. And when I stop, she's going to threaten suicide. She already has and I haven't actually stopped. So I have to get past that hurdle. I have to not take on that responsibility. That would be easier if I knew she was going to seek support elsewhere. But her life is on the line and I don't know which direction she's going to go when I pull back. I feel stuck. It is very much the same pattern and dynamic that existed for a long time in our relationship. I keep doing what I'm doing out of fear of what she might do if I don't. And I don't pursue what I want. And everything stays in this awful limbo, with nothing moving in any direction, and just treading water trying to get through each day without something awful happening. I've had some glimpses of life without that, and that's what I want, and I want to be moving towards that. For a while I felt like I was, and now the suicide threats have seemingly brought things to a halt.

There is definitely a reason that threatening suicide over the end of the relationship is listed as a form of abuse. It really sucks to do that do somebody. I have to get better at how to handle that.

[stolencrumbs]

Her only playbook for getting your attention is the Fear, Obligation and Guilt play. It’s unfortunate that whatever brought you together originally is an historical remnant.

And with you differentiating by getting your own apartment, she is more heavily relying upon Fear.

Previously she has mentioned divorce. She’s unhappy where she currently lives. What do you suppose is the key element that you represent for her?

In the past, she didn’t want you at the house, other than cleaning up the chaos she caused or working in the garden. Yet now, it’s all about “us”. How did that change?

She claims that she "woke up from a coma" when she was in the hospital. She now says she appreciates me, the house, the garden, and the life we had. She doesn't want to move anymore. She tells me she is sorry for everything, and that she now sees how good our life was, and she wants that. I guess that's how it became about "us," or that's at least what she tells me.

I think she finds some safety and security with me. I have been there and have taken care of her for a long time--physically, emotionally, financially, etc. So I suspect she imagines her life without me in it and she doesn't like the way it looks at all. She's not just losing me. She's losing her entire lifestyle. I think that's a big part of what she's trying to hold on to. She doesn't want to work. She doesn't want a less nice house. She doesn't want to start over with another garden. She doesn't want to struggle financially. I think it all taps into feelings from childhood of never feeling like she had a home, and always feeling like she had to struggle to just survive. She sees life with me as a way out of that (even though that's not how she felt when we did have the life she now claims she wants.)

[formflier]

Stolen Crumbs,

First of all...you are doing great work here.  Lifting massive burdens while on a vary narrow path.

Big picture..talk to your T and perhaps your wife's T about how you can ethically use your wife's desire to "stay together" to increase chances she will not attempt or complete suicide in the next few months.

That's the crux of my ideas to do joint stuff several months out.

Absolutely not thinking it is ok to promise her an outcome.  That's why it's critical to ask them for help sorting the ethics out.

Best,

FF

[Cat Familiar]

Big picture..talk to your T and perhaps your wife's T about how you can ethically use your wife's desire to "stay together" to increase chances she will not attempt or complete suicide in the next few months.

I’m uncomfortable with this idea. We all know how pwBPD can distort information by how they “feel” about the facts. No matter how explicitly you word promises for the future (i.e. “I’ll always be your friend”), in her mind she might twist this as a promise of being together forever.

And even if she gets stabilized for some months down the line, when you begin divorce proceedings it will pull the rug out from her, and she will likely feel even more suicidal.

[GaGrl]

I'm in agreement with Cat here -- no false or manipulated hope. Can her current hope be handled ethically? I'm not sure.

I would see the goal now to be stabilizing her within current reality.

[formflier]

 

Can her current hope be handled ethically? 

This is really the question...I would hope the Ts have lots of experience with SI to help work through these kind of things.

Best,

FF

[stolencrumbs]

My T is more in line with Cat on this. She thinks, if anything, I need to be even more direct than I have been about ending the marriage. Despite being pretty clear and consistent already, my wife continues to find some hope in what I'm saying, and T thinks this isn't really good for either one of us. She also thinks that it isn't good for me to keep living two different lives--trying to pursue my own life while also continuing to be my wife's emotional caretaker. That's going to keep me stuck.

At some point I have to stop kicking the can down the road. My wife needs to "get" what's happening. But I want to do what I can to make sure she has some support in place for when she does accept the reality. I want to prepared for the fallout, and have some plan to try to keep her safe.

I don't really have any idea what her T's approach is. While the two T's can talk with each other, they don't seem to talk very much, or to share much information, so I don't know how much working together there will be. My sense is that her T is trying to get her to maintain some hope without that hope having to come from me. In one of the sessions we had together, she encouraged my wife to let me have space, and warned her that pushing that would probably drive me further away. She essentially told her that the best chance for us is for my wife to give me the space I'm asking for. It feels like she is trying to get my wife to hang on to hope even if I'm not giving her any hope. I have no idea if that's a good strategy or not.   

[babyducks]

Yes, that's pretty much what happens. I guess the difference is that now I run out of gas a lot faster. I dropped it when she said that. I don't know if that was the best strategy, but I don't have the energy to push back very hard, and doing so seems to escalate things. So I just dropped it.

regardless of what happens in the next 6 months to a year, there is no path forward that isn't going to involve conflict SC.    more than a fair amount of conflict.   she generates conflict.    this has been a high conflict relationship for a long time.

I think there are ways to balance things... balance the amount of gas in your gas tank so you aren't running on empty, with the amount of conflict each of you can tolerate while still expressing each of your thoughts and feelings.  without escalating into a full blown episode.   I could occasionally reach that sweet spot of balance with my ex.   it wasn't often but it did exist and it was better for me.   I also think it was better for the relationship too.

She is just pushing me to do more than I want to do.  ../../..

This seems right to me. I definitely get pulled in by her emotions, and to some extent still see my role as being a caretaker of her emotions. She is pretty explicitly asking me to deal with her emotions and make her feel better. And I am still doing a good bit of that. And yes, I need to get better at tolerating her being upset and not taking on the responsibility of trying to make her feel better. I'm better at not doing that, but I'm still not there.

I think it's a process, and you are doing much better at it.    you have come a long way.   I used (still use sometimes)  some tricks that help me tolerate distress.   I learned them in therapy.   One that works for me really well is I have a pen... an antique Waterford which is worth about $250.    when I am in  stressful spot I make sure to carry that pen with me.    I associate it with high value,  good times and good memories.    The simple act of rolling it between my fingers or seeing it on the desk helps calm me.    Do you have something, a physical talisman, that you could carry with you that could work in the same way?   a lucky coin?   I would really suggest you try something like that... it helps more than you think.

I talked with my T today. It was helpful, but I don't really feel like I have a clear plan. The main goal is to offer less emotional support, and to encourage her to get support elsewhere--calling her parents, her T, her grandmother, etc.

You are on board with this goal right?    it's okay to not have a clear plan right now.   it will take some time to develop one.   My P used to say you try something and then evaluate how it worked or how it didn't and then try the next thing.   start with small things.   try experimenting with ending conversations that are not already off the rails.    "hey some one is knocking at my door,   I got to go".   just interrupt a ~normal~ conversation and end it.   just for the practice of doing it.    just to get used to interjecting a stopping point.

But I don't think she's going to do that unless I stop caretaking. She doesn't have a reason to. And when I stop, she's going to threaten suicide. She already has and I haven't actually stopped. So I have to get past that hurdle. I have to not take on that responsibility.

I see this as more changing your internal perspective than changing how she expresses herself.    Is that how you view it?    She has a long history of threatening suicide.   Indeed it seems the whole family does.    what an odd dynamic.   my favorite quote about acceptance is this one:

Acceptance means to experience without defense or distress.

that doesn't mean becoming cavalier about her life.   it means finding a place where you are satisfied that you have done everything you could, to the best of your ability to help and support her.   and finding peace in knowing that the rest of the job, the bulk of the job belongs to her.    if I had a magic wand the first thing I would do is find my Ex and tap her on the forehead and change her brain chemistry.  I can't do that.   and neither, tragically, can she.    she is a wonderful person but so damaged by her mental illness that life will never be easy for her.

I feel stuck. It is very much the same pattern and dynamic that existed for a long time in our relationship. I keep doing what I'm doing out of fear of what she might do if I don't. And I don't pursue what I want. And everything stays in this awful limbo, with nothing moving in any direction, and just treading water trying to get through each day without something awful happening. I've had some glimpses of life without that, and that's what I want, and I want to be moving towards that. For a while I felt like I was, and now the suicide threats have seemingly brought things to a halt.

of course you feel stuck.    there are real serious deep reasons for that.   you aren't going to be stuck forever.   this is hard stuff to work to change.    I have found that the way to face my fears is head on, not so much by jumping out of a plane since I am afraid of heights but facing the emotional distress head on.    accepting I am going to be upset but working to cultivate resources to handle that upset/discomfort/distress.    I am a religious person so I work to build up my spiritual / emotional muscles... by practicing gratitude... mindfulness... there might be some flavor of those tools that works for you.

my two cents.
'ducks

[babyducks]

I'm in agreement with Cat here -- no false or manipulated hope. Can her current hope be handled ethically? I'm not sure.

I would see the goal now to be stabilizing her within current reality.

I am with Cat and GaGrl.     Deal with the current reality not the distorted projections.

[stolencrumbs]

I see this as more changing your internal perspective than changing how she expresses herself.    Is that how you view it?    She has a long history of threatening suicide.   Indeed it seems the whole family does.    what an odd dynamic.   my favorite quote about acceptance is this one:

Acceptance means to experience without defense or distress.

that doesn't mean becoming cavalier about her life.   it means finding a place where you are satisfied that you have done everything you could, to the best of your ability to help and support her.   and finding peace in knowing that the rest of the job, the bulk of the job belongs to her.    if I had a magic wand the first thing I would do is find my Ex and tap her on the forehead and change her brain chemistry.  I can't do that.   and neither, tragically, can she.    she is a wonderful person but so damaged by her mental illness that life will never be easy for her.

Yes, I definitely see this as working to change my own perspective on things. And I do see some progress in that. I like that definition of acceptance. The (or a) hard part for me is figuring out where the line is for doing everything I can do. I could obviously do more right now. I could do whatever she wants. I could move back in. I could pretend like everything was fine. I could put all my energy and efforts back into her needs. I *could* do that. I'm not, but that means I'm not doing everything I can. Maybe the key is to rephrase it a little--I need to be satisfied that I am doing everything I *should* be doing to support her. Doing too much doesn't actually help her in the long run. But that line of being appropriately limited in what I give her and being a jerk is often a hard line for me to see. This is probably what I have worked the most on in the past year. My T once joked that I come there every two weeks for her to tell me I'm not a jerk. I think I could withstand the distress more easily if I was truly convinced that I was doing all that I should be doing. But I'm pretty good at convincing myself that I should do more. 

[formflier]

But I'm pretty good at convincing myself that I should do more. 

Good to keep in mind!

I'm thinking this is a great place to lean on the Ts. 

Best,

FF

[babyducks]

Maybe the key is to rephrase it a little--I need to be satisfied that I am doing everything I *should* be doing to support her. Doing too much doesn't actually help her in the long run. But that line of being appropriately limited in what I give her and being a jerk is often a hard line for me to see.

you are not a jerk.   upstream you mentioned to Cat the life style, the house, the garden, the not struggling financially.    I hope you give yourself credit for providing that.     I hope you give yourself credit for the effort you put in to being kind emotionally.     

it seems to me that appropriately limited will feel uncomfortable for a while.   it will take some getting used to.    I think what most of us share in common is the tendency to over function in relationships.    for me,... as a child I lived with my grandparents... to help them.   my grandmother was an invalid in bed and my grandfather retired early with a stroke.   I was sent to lift and carry and help and in a very real sense... be a caretaker.   from the age of 12 to about 18... that was my job.    and in my formative years I learned to care take.   to bring cups of tea and biscuits.  etc etc  it's very hard for me to NOT over provide support.   and when I do it,   I never give myself credit for it.    I always find the one more thing I should be doing or could be doing and feel dissatisfied with my efforts.     that's my cognitive distortion.     and I am working on it.

 

[stolencrumbs]

you are not a jerk.   upstream you mentioned to Cat the life style, the house, the garden, the not struggling financially.    I hope you give yourself credit for providing that.     I hope you give yourself credit for the effort you put in to being kind emotionally.     

it seems to me that appropriately limited will feel uncomfortable for a while.   it will take some getting used to.    I think what most of us share in common is the tendency to over function in relationships.    for me,... as a child I lived with my grandparents... to help them.   my grandmother was an invalid in bed and my grandfather retired early with a stroke.   I was sent to lift and carry and help and in a very real sense... be a caretaker.   from the age of 12 to about 18... that was my job.    and in my formative years I learned to care take.   to bring cups of tea and biscuits.  etc etc  it's very hard for me to NOT over provide support.   and when I do it,   I never give myself credit for it.    I always find the one more thing I should be doing or could be doing and feel dissatisfied with my efforts.     that's my cognitive distortion.     and I am working on it.

Thanks 'ducks.

Yeah, I have the same distortion. My dad was/is an alcoholic. Without all that happened in my  marriage, I doubt I would've ever realized the effect that had on me. My dad was never mean or abusive. He was very functional and provided well. But he was/is drunk nearly every day. My mom used to drink a lot on the weekends with him. I always felt the need to be in control and be capable of handling things, since I knew my parents often weren't able to. My mom also was/is my dad's caretaker, and I'm sure I'm following in her footsteps to some extent. So yes, definitely prone to over-functioning and being overly supportive.

My thought process is almost exactly as you describe. My T, family, friends, etc. will point out all that I am still doing for my wife, and I just think "yeah, but look at what else I *could* be doing that I'm not." I'm trying to work on that.