She took the boy and I think she’s serious Part 2

[JNChell]

Mod Note:  Part 1 of this thread is here:  https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=338981.0;all


What is the first thing that I need to do? I’ll not have an attorney because I can’t afford one at this point in time.

[JNChell]

livedandlearned, this feels like a game. I don’t like games like this, but if this is the case, should I view it that way? I want what’s best for our boy. Right now, things aren’t good good for him and he is starting to understand that, so time is of the essence. There aren’t any winners here, but it would be nice to know how to approach this. I’m scared to do it, but there’s no other way. I can’t do this for the next 14 years. Thank you for jumping in here.

[livednlearned]

Most of us were in a similar position with no money. I guess my advice is to at least put in time to get three or four consultations. Before you do that, actually, use this board to solicit advice on what to ask these Ls.

Not that your ex will retain an L, but it is considered a strategy to consult with any Ls you don't want her to retain.

Sometimes, consults are free. In other areas, they cost money and then if you retain them, they include that amount in your retainer.

Spend some time here figuring out your goals. Then work on strategy, then tactics.

All of this is easier done with a cooler head 

I didn't have money to hire a lawyer but I found a way. You might also ask people here how they did it. Maybe someone found a path forward that you haven't thought about. I ended up using a low-interest rate credit card for some of it. Plus cash gifts from friends. My L did some pro bono work toward the end. I had her do lots of the big hitter work and then relied on her (cheaper) junior partner for smaller stuff. I printed out things so she didn't charge to mail me copies. I learned to not send emails about small things, saved up my questions, took notes or recorded when we talked. I put together my own book of documentation that saved me thousands of dollars.

My L liked working with me because I was able to stay focused on my kid. All kinds of shenanigans happened that were hard to deal with and I kept my head down and focused on my goals and objectives.

And I eventually got there. It took years but part of that is because my ex is an attorney and he seemed to relish being in court even when it worked against him.

Hope some of that helps.

[kells76]

Most of us were in a similar position with no money.

We were. We ended up asking DH's folks and mine for loans. One day I'd like to pay them back.

get three or four consultations. Before you do that, actually, use this board to solicit advice on what to ask these Ls.

Yes. Through my work, I had a "benefit" of a free legal consultation with their sort-of in house L. It didn't end up working after all, but it was good to "practice" meeting with a L to figure out how they thought about DH's case. And as LnL mentioned, please use this board to plan out your questions, so you can maximize your consult time.

The L we ended up retaining was one that a coworker (whose W had kind of gone nuts) recommended. So consider discreetly asking at work/church/etc for recommendations.

That L ended up personally answering a lot of my (just the stepmom!) questions on the first phone call, which was really nice.

I ended up using a low-interest rate credit card for some of it

We didn't have to, but it's a good idea.

Plus cash gifts from friends

It's OK to be vulnerable in your situation. You're gathering resources for your son. It may seem... abasing, I guess; I really hate asking my parents for money, but we did when it came down to a L so that DH could actually spend protected time with the kids.

I had her do lots of the big hitter work and then relied on her (cheaper) junior partner for smaller stuff.

Our L had a tiny firm, just him plus one or two assistants. His assistant did a lot of the "form filing" stuff which saved money.

...

Do you have a trusted friend/family member who could be "Spock" for you and just focus on the logistics? I did that for DH. It's really emotional for parents to get involved with a L for their kids and it can make it hard to dispassionately back away and be like, OK, this hurts, but right now I need to call lawyers A, B, and C, and start documenting time with the kids, and organize receipts, and...

It's really hard. I don't know if you have a mental mode of "flip the switch and now I'm just gettin' S-H done" but that might be a good mode to go into if you can. Remember that you're doing this for your son.

[JNChell]

kells76, I’m definitely doing this for my kiddo. This crap stops with me. I don’t really know where to start. It would be nice to know a few questions to ask up front. I just can’t believe that this is where things are. It shouldn’t be this way. If it is, I need to navigate it.

From what I’ve taken in thus far, I need to nail down some direction. This means that I need information. What questions should I be asking?

[JNChell]

I’m dealing with a narcissist, not a borderline.

[kells76]

It would be nice to know a few questions to ask up front.

Try starting (at home) by timelining things out.

I.e., Sep 2018 I had Son X amount of time. Texts from xW were 2x/day and general tone was neutral. Son and I went to zoo on 15th. Oct 2018 I had son X amount of time. We went to the water park and son wore life jacket. xW texted to accuse me of doing Z. Nov 2018 xW said I couldn't be with Son on my usual days and emailed saying Blah, Blah, Blah on the 18th. Son was with xW on Thanksgiving. Dec 2018 xW sent accusatory text on 2nd and said son didn't want to be with me, she recommended cutting days down to 1x/month...

You can do this in a (private!) Google calendar, as LnL did. If you're more tactile, buy (or make) yourself a big page-a-month calendar for your "war room" and start methodically filling in parenting times, etc. If you have receipts or bank statements, those can help. Can you print out texts?

So, you don't have to go all "Beautiful Mind" on it yet, but get a general sense of the trend of your xW's behavior about your time with Son down on paper. Have that in front of you when you meet up with a couple of L's.

...

Starting statement could be something like:

My xW seems to be unilaterally trying to decrease the customary time I spend with OUR son (make sure to say OUR not MY -- because you are a reasonable parent, not a "possessive" parent). I have tried A, B, and C to make sure our son has time with me, but it seems to be getting worse.

Questions could be:

-What's your experience with high-conflict cases/personalities? I'm concerned that my xW may want to (keep the conflict going, take the focus away from our son, make false accusations, etc)
-What steps do you recommend dads in my position take?
-If you were in my position, and the situation was headed to court, who would you want to represent you?
-What strengths do you see in my position? What weaknesses?
-What other information do you need from me to get a sense of my case?
-What "worst case scenario" info about me do you need (here's where you can say "You know what, I kind of lost it over text with my xW, and to be honest, I'm worried it'll come back to bite me and thereby hurt my son")
-What are things I could do if I were to retain you to save money for where it really counts?
-What's an estimated timeline for if my case were to go to court?

...

I'm sure other members have good ideas for questions and prep too.

[livednlearned]

Have you had a case like mine before and if so, what was the outcome?
My goal is to get __________. What strategy do you propose would work best to get that outcome?
How soon can I expect to hear back from you if I email you with questions?
Is there a benefit to filing first?
I'm worried she might block me from seeing my son. What do I do if that happens?
Can you tell me how things work with the judges? Do they rotate or will we likely have the same one? If so, what is the judge like?
What's the most important thing I need to do right now?
How does billing work and what kind of payment arrangement are we talking about?
What kinds of things should I be documenting?
I have C-PTSD and blew up at her in text messages. Do I need to be concerned about that if this goes to court?
Is mediation mandatory?
I would like to avoid litigation, but in the event that it does happen, what kind of experience do you have litigating?
What are some things I can do to minimize costs?

In my county, you can also call the clerk of court's office and ask how things work. They can't give you legal advice but they can tell you, Well first you have to file the complaint. That form is here. Then the file a counter-claim. Judges don't tend to read those. Then you or your lawyer will do x, then y. In some jurisdictions they do things like this, but here we do things like y.

You can also get a NOLO book that explains how divorce and custody work in your state: https://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/divorce-in-your-state-31013.html

[Panda39]

Hi JNChell,

You might see if your Employer has an "Employee Assistance Program" EAP that offers free or low cost legal services.  It may or may not be where you find someone to represent you but it could be a place to ask some general questions.

In terms of money my Partner initially had financial support from his mom during his divorce/custody case for an attorney.  Eventually she could go no further with him (2 year divorce  ) so in the end both he and his ex ended up in court representing themselves.  By then he learned some things by having an attorney...was able to have subpoenas served, was able to create a book of evidence (we called it the book of doom  , found informational classes through the court (couldn't give advice but could help with how to file paperwork, how the court works etc.)

I agree where there is a will there is a way.

Panda39

[JNChell]

Thanks everyone. I’m very grateful for the advice. S4’s mom finally reached out yesterday. I’ll be having S4 for the weekend which is a relief. His mom and I discussed getting a court order put in place and both agree that it’s necessary. I asked her if she wanted to try mediation first. I could tell that she didn’t really understand the process. I explained what it is, but she doesn’t listen to much of what I have to say. I get it. Anyway, to the best of my knowledge, she filed the necessary paperwork yesterday and told me that she didn’t realize what mediation was but that she thought it was our best option. She has aggressively threatened me with things like she had an attorney that was telling her she had an open and shut case. It seems to me that if she had been consulting with an attorney that she would be well aware of what mediation is and how it works. I guess that’s neither here nor there. I can take a positive away from this in the fact that we are able to agree on the two things mentioned. Perhaps that momentum going in the direction to agreeing on reasonable terms and made official with a court order. Now I just need to nail down what is reasonable and in the best interests of our Son. Since the direction of the situation has seemed to change, I’m hoping that some of you that have been through mediation will share your experiences. Again, many thanks.

[kells76]

Hey again JNChell;

She has aggressively threatened me with things like she had an attorney that was telling her she had an open and shut case.

She could tell you all kinds of things. She could tell you that God came down and said that she would win (which would be easier to identify as not true), or she might try to tell you things that sound more plausible -- like "I've consulted with a half dozen attorneys, and all of them are on the same page that you don't stand a chance."

People like you and I often instinctively believe what other people tell them right off the bat. It's been a learning experience for me to put that extra step in there when I listen to the kids' mom -- "Remember, kells76, she can say literally anything she wants, but that doesn't make it true."

I remember dropping the kids off a few weeks ago and she was telling us that there was lice at their house again. But she seemed almost unable to stop herself from explaining how SHE had cleaned EVERYTHING and they were FINE, but then one of the kids' friends came over, and blah blah blah it was this friend who had lice and reintroduced it, and the friend's parents miscommunicated...

Two things I took away from that were (a) Mom can say anything she wants about any situation in life, and she often does, but that doesn't make it true; and, more subtlely (b) people will often tell you more about themselves than they think when they talk. I think the kids' mom was desperately trying to convince herself that it wasn't her fault that the kids got lice... AGAIN. And when I really listened to her words, she was very blame-y and "not my fault"-y.

So, as you seem to move into mediation, remember that your kid's mom will say a LOT of stuff. Slow down, and remind yourself that it's not necessarily true, even though it may seem convincing.

Kind of reminds me of that old "social rule" -- never ask a woman if she's pregnant unless you literally see a baby comin' out 

Unless you "see the baby", don't believe that "she's pregnant" just because she says so, if that makes sense...

[Turkish]

What is there to meditate? You can both agree to joint physical and legal custody, write a custody schedule appropriate for his age (every other weekend, and alternating 2 or 3 days through the week) and calculate CS by your state's online calculator if needed.  No need for court, just filed with the county court.

Or do you think that she is still wanting primary custody? If so, how do you feel about that?

[Zabava]

JNChell.,

My sister went through mediation with her ex, who was unstable and unwilling to work.  My sister as you know has ubpd.  The mediator was very clear from the get go that the best interests of the kids came first.

Also I worked for the Ontario government's Family Support Plan for many years and I saw that parents who worked out an agreement through mediation did better than those who fought it out in court.  A skilled mediator will try to hone in  your son's  needs and find  common ground between you and your ex.

[JNChell]

Hi, kells76. Thanks for the insight and reminders. You pointed something out that I’ve never really understood about myself. My uncanny knack for believing everything I’m told. I’ll do my best to keep this at the front of my mind throughout the process, and hopefully include it in my self work after mediation is hopefully successful. As I think about what you’ve offered here, believing or not believing her words can both throw me off balance. That’ll just distract my focus which is our Son. This is about him. I can’t make her understand that, but I can understand it. When she finally reached out, she explained that he missed me and that it broke her heart to see him hurting. All about her. I really had to bite my tongue. Thank you for being part of this conversation. It really helps.

[JNChell]

Hey, Turkish.

What is there to meditate?

My feelings exactly. It should be pretty cut and dry. That’s not possible and I think it’s best that she and I don’t prolong this anymore. With that being said, she and I are currently in complete communication breakdown. That doesn’t work for S4. I’m tired of seeing him being used as a pawn, and I’m tired of the stress that I feel from it. I’ve got to be my best for him. Being stressed out and triggered doesn’t help with that. As stated, his mom doesn’t take me seriously as the other parent. Her attitude is that it’s a privilege that I even get time with our Son. She has flat out said that I don’t have any rights to him. When she reached out a couple days ago, she did a history re-write and wouldn’t acknowledge her actions. I didn’t push the fact. I explained my side in grey rock fashion and left it there. I apologized for my reaction and told her that I was glad that we are taking steps to make the situation better.

We need mediation because we can’t accomplish what is necessary on our own accord. Mediation = negotiation. She and I can’t accomplish that. I’m hoping that with a legitimate third party we can make some progress. She won’t reason with me, but perhaps she will hear what a legitimate mediator has to say if that person decides to reinforce what is in the best interests of our Son. Maybe she will hear reason from a person that she doesn’t despise. This isn’t about winning or losing. Maybe a mediator will allow her to see that.

Or do you think that she is still wanting primary custody? If so, how do you feel about that?

She will want to retain primary custody. I’m going to ask for joint. I feel that it’s necessary for our Son to have equal rights to his parents. If he begins to feel controlled, issues will follow. He should be allowed to think freely and speak freely. What he says will teach him a lot as he grows into his independence. For lack of better words, I want a hand in the game. I’m his dad. I want to be able to be there with my Son.

[JNChell]

Zabava. Do mediators actually intervene when they see what is in the best interest of the child is being taken away from the other parent? Are they skilled on seeing when it’s more about control and manipulation, rather than what’s best for the kiddo? I agree, from what I’ve read, court can become brutal. I don’t want brutality. I simply want something in place that S4’s mom can’t manipulate, and if she does, she’ll have to answer.

[Zabava]

JNChell,

A skilled mediator should be able to see past all the things you mentioned.  Would they be  court appointed? I don't know how it works where you live, but in my province you have to go to mediation before anything goes to  trial, so the process is standardized and transparent. Here the court also starts with joint custody as the default.

Yes, court can be really brutal if the lawyers are really combative.  The most common problem I saw was that the court proceedings themselves would cause new conflicts and bitterness.  Also, the process can drag on for a long time because of court backlogs or delays and you have no control over it, which can be really frustrating. 

If you can use the mediator to help you communicate effectively with your ex then it will be way less expensive and hopefully way calmer for everyone. 

I would suggest doing some research on how mediation works in your area, so you know what to expect and maybe ease your mind a bit.

[ForeverDad]

She will want to retain primary custody. I’m going to ask for joint. I feel that it’s necessary for our Son to have equal rights to his parents. If he begins to feel controlled, issues will follow. He should be allowed to think freely and speak freely. What he says will teach him a lot as he grows into his independence. For lack of better words, I want a hand in the game. I’m his dad. I want to be able to be there with my Son.

Many states handle custody (major issues like religion, major medical decisions, etc) and parenting (who is primary, what is the schedule, etc) somewhat as separate but linked aspects.

Courts always prefer joint custody, that way neither parent should feel ignored or left out.  Full custody sometimes is ordered but usually only when (1) one parent is constantly obstructing the other's parenting or (2) both parents are okay with it.  If you feel you ought to have full custody and don't get it (or that she needs limits to her level of joint custody) then maybe the court will agree there is enough basis to grant you Decision Making or Tie Breaker status while still existing under the joint custody umbrella.

If child support is ordered then often the parent receiving it is considered the primary parent.  (I was an exception.  I was granted full custody yet paid ex CS since we had equal parenting time.  I called my local state enforcement office and they said their statements and notices were hard-coded to always list the parent paying CS as non-primary.  Not reality but that's how they had their programmers build their system.)

Typically "primary" has most impact on where the child is registered for school.  Is your ex likely to move more than you in the years to come?  If so, then that's a good reason to support you being the Primary.  What if she wants to move more than a few dozen miles away and the court lets her?  You'd have to pick up and follow ex and the kids in order to avoid decreased parenting opportunities.

[JNChell]

Hi, Zabava. Thank you for clarifying some things. What I’ve gathered from you is that the mediator will actually intervene when that person sees things going sideways? The mediator will not be court appointed. Hopefully we can somewhat work together with our Son being the subject. I guess that it’ll be a good opportunity for me to implement the tools. I don’t want to fight her. I just want something solid in place so I don’t have to fight with her anymore.

[Turkish]

We have both joint and legal custody. The order forbids either of us moving out of the county without the other's permission.

[JNChell]

ForeverDad, joint custody is what I’m going for. I think that I have ways to negotiate it and hopefully close that deal. I’ve been thinking hard on this. Drives home from work. Doing the dishes. Folding laundry.

His mom is very good about his appointments. I think that she should keep that and be told how well she does with those things. However, I want to be included in his appointments. I’d like to take him to 50% of his appointments. I’d like to be informed on the 50% that I don’t see. I would like 100% decision making over his psychology. I asked and asked for a while for him to be evaluated and possibly enter play therapy. His mom wouldn’t talk about it in a meaningful way. I was always the problem. He still says that he wishes that his mom and I could be together, and he’s exhibiting anger. He punches and kicks. He throws and breaks his toys when a time out is put in place. He’s not ok with the split. Im not a professional and I want him to be evaluated by a professional. The anger isn’t a phase.

I think that she’s pretty landed as far as moving around goes. She drives a bus for a good school system that S4 should attend.

I’ve been thinking a lot about deciding what is best for S4. I’m realizing that it will take us both. However that turns out.

[JNChell]

Turkish, that’s something that I want put into print as well. I need to cover the bases and be able to negotiate with her without causing a trigger. If I do that, I’ll become triggered and everything will break down. This is on me. I’m just trying to do what is right.

[Zabava]

JNChell,

Some further thoughts in favour of mediation;  it is good to have everything agreed on in advance re: holidays and vacations. As you know holidays like Thanksgiving, Christmas, etc. Can be very triggering for bpds.  It might sound like overkill, but having a mediated settlement in writing will make these times less stressful going forward.

It sounds like you are you are very in tune with how things are impacting your son and want him to get support.  It sounds like maybe you are more able to put his needs first than your ex.  Remind me how old is your son?  I ask because if he in school you might be able to get access to support for him through the school board.

If I may ask, when you suggested play therapy, did his mum perceive it as a criticism of her parenting skills? 

[livednlearned]

"S4 is expressing his anger the way I do, and I want him to have a chance to learn skills to manage his frustration better than I did. Imagine what it would be like for him to get this chance when he's young and it really makes a difference."

That's one way to made a bid for play therapy.

I did something similar when I felt then S8 needed therapy. I looked at issues that were related to me and my ex ran with it. He was practically giddy that I had attached behavioral issues to our son that could be traced to me. It disarmed him.

The full story comes out in therapy, meanwhile your son is getting the help he needs, regardless of why he's there.

[JNChell]

Hi, Zabava.

Yes, I feel like I’m pretty in tune with how he feels. I try anyway. It’s basically impossible to talk to his mom about my concerns. It is immediately turned around as me being the problem and being crazy. She can’t see it as a genuine concern. I’m gaslighted and I’m still vulnerable to that, unfortunately. I’ve stopped trying to approach her with any concerns.

I’ve already thought about holidays, and thank you for mentioning them. It’s nice to be getting solid advice rather than criticism.

Our Son is 4. He’ll be 5 in December. He should be starting preschool soon, but I don’t know. His mom communicates absolutely nothing to me. This will also be addressed in mediation. I have to be very careful and validating, I think, for mediation to be constructive.

I can out negotiate S4’s mom on my worst day. However, I can’t overcome the behavior and thinking. How do I bring these strengths and weaknesses together in a meaningful way. It’s not about winning or losing. It’s about our boy and my own mental health. I need to be my best for him. I can’t be that when I’m triggered by his mom.

[JNChell]

livedandlearned, that’s brilliant! That’s what I’m looking for. Being able to honestly drive my points home. Making my points indisputable, but logical and reasonable. Thank you.

[ForeverDad]

Remember that your ex will expound her own self-serving narrative in an attempt to divert the topics to her benefit.  Almost surely she is an expert at fooling many with her emotionally compelling claims - not facts.  Or twisting facts to her manipulative efforts.  what do you say when she claims she's been the only one parenting and you're just some footnote in your son's life?

Understand that a good, experienced mediator will not pressure you to Gift Away to many of your parenting rights.

Go into mediation with notes of what your goals and limits are.  Also, by now you know some of the justifications and claims she will make.  Prepare well so you're less likely to be blindsided.  Here in peer support you've probably read many excellent responses to our situations, some expected, many unexpected.  Make notes of the better responses we've made.

And as our mediator said to my soon to be ex-spouse when she said she was the Entitled Mother in her culture, "We're not in (your island culture where you spent half your childhood), we're here in this country."  (Funny story... . as possessive a mother as ex was, her own brothers were raised by her father, it was only she and her sister who grew up with her mother and sexually abusive stepfather. If we would have followed her cultural claims and history, then I as Father should have raised our son.)

Many courts require mediation as one of the first steps in a divorce, mine was right after the first hearing in court for the (supposedly) temporary order.  We were ordered to make 3 attempts or sessions.  We only made it through one, after which the mediator muttered "this woman has issues".

Word to the wise:  Do make a sincere attempt in mediation, you want to be able to state, if asked, that you made a sincere effort.  Just don't sell yourself short or Gift Away your "Leverage to obtain compliance" or too many things.

The general truism here is that early mediation or settlement conference attempts fail because the disordered spouse is too entitled, too controlling, too obstructive or too whatever.  As you've read, the perceived pain of losing or feeling abandoned is just too great.

However, many of us have settled.  How?  Typically later in the divorce process such as just before a major hearing or trial.  Often it's at the last possible moment.  My divorce settlement was nearly two years into the separation/divorce, I found out when I arrived at family court for Trial Day.

If you can work out an equitable settlement earlier, great.  But to get there  don't give in and agree to too many unfair concessions, it's not worth it, that quiescence will come back to bite you sooner or later, usually sooner.

[GaGrl]

JNChell, as you go into mediation, keep in mind that while you would like your ex to communicate with you regarding your sn, as soon as you have Joint Custody legal status per court order, you can obtain much of your son's info on your own. You can meet with the doctors and therapists, you can have meetings with teachers, etc. This is good to know and have lined up prior to your son starting preschool and kindergarten.

As much as many people would like to co-parent, sometimes it just doesn't work-- at that point, you move to parallel parenting.

[JNChell]

FD.

what do you say when she claims she's been the only one parenting and you're just some footnote in your son's life?

I think that I would say that I’m sorry that she feels that way, and that I wish that I would’ve done a better job at communicating to her that I truly want to be involved in S4’s life and well being. That I want to help her with his appointments and take some of that burden off of her while at the same time showing our Son that I support him and that I’m there for him. I would try to remind her that I’ve all but begged her to be more involved with him than an every other weekend and one night a week dad. I think that that part will be tricky to word in a way that doesn’t cause her to recoil. I’m also aware that if negotiations start to go sideways that I’ll need to subtly redirect the conversation back to our Son. I’m hoping that we end up with a mediator that will recognize this when it happens. I also hope I’m on the right track in my thinking here. Please let me know if I should be looking at this differently.

[JNChell]

Hi, GaGrl. What you described is the main reason why I want joint. Even with a court order stating that she has to keep me in the loop, I don’t trust her to do that. I also don’t trust the family court system to rightfully enforce an issue like that. The more that I think about this, I’ll need to come up with a way to have her explain why joint custody isn’t the best option for our Son without cornering her and creating a shutdown. Perhaps I can talk about S4 to try and describe the reasoning. She’ll most likely try to make it a battle between she and I. I should focus on S4 no matter what. I don’t know. That’s why I’m here asking for advice. It is about our little guy. It’s not about his mom and I anymore.