Home page of BPDFamily.com, online relationship supportMember registration here
March 29, 2024, 02:50:28 AM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Board Admins: Kells76, Once Removed, Turkish
Senior Ambassadors: Cat Familiar, EyesUp, SinisterComplex
  Help!   Boards   Please Donate Login to Post New?--Click here to register  
bing
Skills we were never taught
98
A 3 Minute Lesson
on Ending Conflict
Communication Skills-
Don't Be Invalidating
Listen with Empathy -
A Powerful Life Skill
Setting Boundaries
and Setting Limits
Pages: [1]   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: Take on a Conversation  (Read 527 times)
Witz_End
***
Offline Offline

What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Romantic partner
Posts: 152


« on: September 03, 2019, 03:13:42 PM »

I want to make sure I don't cross any bounds.  I know people have posted parts of conversations / texts before (as have I),  it would it be OTT to copy/paste a text conversation in as a way to get feedback?

I normally am not keen on sharing too much private correspondance, but at the same time:  1.  This is an anonymous site where nobody knows either of us, and 2.  There is legitimate purpose to it.

She has asked me to "go back through" the conversation to understand where she opened up and I "lombasted" (her word) her.  I do recognize that I did not handle everything perfectly, so there is some mea culpa -  my main question is how much and how much people feel her pulling away is exaggeration and the manipulation of putting me in the doghouse as a result of guilt (I mention in a response the situations involving her almost leaving for the other guy and a question of trust).  In that light, it helps to have third party impressions.
Logged
PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES
This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

once removed
BOARD ADMINISTRATOR
**
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
Posts: 12608



« Reply #1 on: September 03, 2019, 04:53:44 PM »

the more "he said/she said", the more we can get an objective look and walk you through it.
Logged

     and I think it's gonna be all right; yeah; the worst is over now; the mornin' sun is shinin' like a red rubber ball…
Witz_End
***
Offline Offline

What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Romantic partner
Posts: 152


« Reply #2 on: September 03, 2019, 06:51:48 PM »

Context:  We have been sleeping same bed, but stepped back more to a "friend" mode, in using no cuddling, sex, intimacy, etc.  The night before, I had had a really strong heart arrhythmia (I have had them all my life) that scared me a little and had called her over to cuddle.

Since this is a huge post, covering the text conversation verbatim, I'll follow it with another.  Yes, I realize I have my own responsibilities and flaws showing here.

Her:
I've also been thinking and I'm not sure where I stand, but would like input on where you stand.
Last night felt really good. In many ways I'd say too good, but when I consider other things, that doesn't apply. We wasted so much of the last 20 years being upset with each other. Spending time apart when we could have spent it connecting. Being so focused on telling each other to connect with us instead of connecting with each other.
And I have been thinking about family. I've been thinking about how it often happens so suddenly to lose someone we love. We put off cherishing the time with them, or even spending it. We find reasons for life to interfere.
And last night... well... the worst thing in the world that can happen to me right now is to lose you while already disconnected from you. To be upset, to lose you after a fight, for whatever reason, in whatever way... to not be able to hold each other... to waste time living in anger, unforgiveness, distrust, fear of abandonment, or whatever.

And yet, this has been so difficult to do right. I'm not sure what pace to head forward. Part of me wants to say "Let's get all the cuddling in while we can" and another part says "Careful we don't fall back into routines"

So I'm torn. I figured I'd ask you where you are on it, because I'm so tired of wasting time. I think a big part of my issues over the last 20 years comes down to frustration due to how I never expected us to put that much effort and time into something that should have been so instant and automatic.

Me:
I felt the same thing last night as far as the timing.  When I felt my heart pound really hard for a few beats, it scared me.  I didn't have reason to believe that I was going to "go" last night or I would have taken it seriously and gone to the hospital, but the thought was there that if I were to, I did not want it to be with us in limbo and you left with things on that note.  A lot of what I felt with that thought was for you.  Would I know differently?  Probably not.  But, you would have been left like that.

Her:
And I wouldn't want to leave you like that either.

Me:
As for the other thoughts, I am torn as well.  I believe that it is a good thing for us each to sort of be able to reconnect with ourselves and be stronger us'es.  I also think it is wise not to fall into old patterns, so agree that it's a trap to avoid.

Right now, I am really not sure what I want and there are conflicting forces in me.  We've spent a long time treating each other in ways that nobody should treat that person who is closest to them and most important in their life.  There is a lot of broken trust and reasons that we each have for not trusting that the other will change.  There is need for radical change.

It says something that despite that, there is pull to come back together.  The cynic wonders if we're gluttons for punishment or if there's an unhealthy codependence.  The romantic wonders at the tie that's there... the glue that's held us together despite it all.

Her:
I feel the same in a lot of ways. With the idea of codependence, I'vebeen debating that for so long in my head. Especially as it seems to be the "go-to" explanation of why a couple like us would stay together. But then, "go-to" solutions never seemed to be right or work out for me. Things tend to work out differently with me. I'm not sure about you on that idea.

That is where I realized a big part of what keeps me with you is not codependence. It is that, even with the arguing and fighting, even with the difficulties between us, I find fulfillment being with you, and it would be significantly more difficult to find it without you, and without our marriage. I also have trouble understanding the idea of us being friends outside of marriage, because if we can be friends outside of marriage, then we should be able to be friends within it... and if we can't be friends within it, then how can we outside of it?

Still... how we proceed needs to be intentional.

Me:
It's very hard for me.  These are wonderful things and a wonderful sentiment.  Honest openness, though... it processes as syntax error.  I know you feel this way, but... three or four years from now, are we back at a point where 23 years of the negative is the focus and someone else is there who is the greener grass?  Are you back to seeing the 23 years as a waste and is that another 3 added?

Inside you is still that part that felt that.  The coin is just turned over and that side is down.  If you were to speak from that side of the coin, it wouldn't be this wonderful message of love.

Knowing the ways that you see things creates that syntax error.    It makes it difficult to trust.

Her:
ok

Me:
I feel guilty for even saying it.  I want to reach out.  I see you reaching out.  I'd like to work through it and reach through it.  But, I also feel you deserve honesty.  So, there's this conflict inside.

Her:
I have experienced the same with you often. I understand. At the same time, please understand that it takes a lot of faith and trust for me to say these things, just like it is hard for you to open up. I feel very slapped down.

It is probably best we stick to no cuddling for now.

Me:
I imagine you do.  It's why I feel guilty.  But, that's part of the problem... if you're asking for openness and to understand where I am, I need to be open.

You mentioned the pitfall of having expectations.  Is the slapped down feeling because there were expectations?

It feels like our pattern.  We expect or hope for an answer or a reciprocation of our sentiment and when the other opens up with something else, we retreat hurt and leave the other regretting the honesty, rather than finding a way to take it and work with and through it.

I'm saddened by the no cuddling, but I understand it.

Her:
But here is the thing. You do the same. You asked me to stay open when I expressed wanting to close up when you started to feel more open, but when I open up, you slap me down. You say you're just being honest, but if I am honest about what goes on inside me when you open up to me, then I'm untrustworthy. This too is a part of our pattern. The concepts and understandings need to apply both ways and when they don't it becomes problematic, hurtful, and ultimately disastrous.

Does it matter the details of the slapped down feeling when you feel it? Would you want me picking it apart with questions like you just asked? Or would you more want me to see that you were feeling that way and just listen?

As for expecting reciprocation, that too feels like you are taking my own expressed ideas and concepts and using them against me... again, demonstrating that I am much safer to avoid the interaction.

Please understand that the initiation of the trust this time was not limited to today's text. It also involved the cuddling last night. You asked for it and I was happy to respond. But I knew it was risky and this is exactly why. It makes me less apt to risk it again. I too have tons and tons of cynicism.

I am saddened by the fact that cuddling really resulted in more pain than help for us much more than the fact that this conversation is leading us to not feel safe about it. I think the former is a bigger picture while the latter is more of a detail of it. I am saddened by the bigger picture than just one of the details, because there are so many details that add up.

Me:
"T__/C__, you do this too.  You feel this way, but I need *you* to see that I feel this way too," has never really bridged any gaps between us.

Her:
ok. I think I'm done with this converstion

Me:
Okay.

Her:
I at least have a better idea of where I stand. So there's that.
Logged
Witz_End
***
Offline Offline

What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Romantic partner
Posts: 152


« Reply #3 on: September 03, 2019, 07:07:20 PM »

*** Ugh.  The post cut off a chunk of the conversation.   I am going to have to try to post it below after this post.  Grrr.  It took time.  I may have to come back later.  Feel free to give any thoughts so far, but realize there's more.

Mea culpa:  I obviously didn't handle things as well as I could have.

Since childhood, but especially within the relationship, I am very sensitive to invalidation in close relationships and that's fed by a pattern in ours.  So, something that kicked up in me was that feeling (obviously).  I am also so used to her turning things around to being about her to avoid facing my feelings, so I am sensitive to it and see it happening and respond.  I did that here.

I also continued to push it further than I should have, which is just more of my kind of emphasizing it as important to me.  But, it was handled poorly, I think.

At the end, yes... I was emotional and kind of dragged down into the mud, so to speak.  She has, lately, played a game of asking to end a conversation, then coming back with bitter words or a jab.  What I'm reacting to is a pattern of that, but also I'm playing a part in it by not just ignoring.

So, I see these things.

Aside from overall impressions and things you all see, good or bad and about her or me, what I am looking for is this...

Later, after the conversation, she had this to say:

Excerpt
Something you have always told me was to go back and reread my texts and try to consider things from your point of view. I often had to guess your POV and you would often tell me I was wrong or fell short.
I laid out my point of view in the most raw sense and got lambasted for having a point of view.
It is gonna be tough to convince me at this point that you have any respect for me as my own person and not someone who just pipes herself down when you demand it.

I am wondering how you may see where and if I "lombasted" her.  I do get that she felt slapped down and obvious I gave her that feeling.  I see where that happened, but...

Is this exaggeration on her part or am I that far in the wrong?  It does feel, especially at the tail end of this message, that she is trying to put me in that place of having to go into the doghouse and work to convince her.
« Last Edit: September 03, 2019, 07:19:33 PM by Witz_End » Logged
Witz_End
***
Offline Offline

What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Romantic partner
Posts: 152


« Reply #4 on: September 04, 2019, 10:30:45 AM »

*** Here's part two.  Since I don't want to risk being cut off again, I should include another post after with the rest.

Me:
I'm understanding that to be a continuation of the conversation.

I hear the hurt in that and am sorry that you are hurting.  Where is it that you feel you stand?

Her:
Then hear the hurt

the HURT

Forget it. I don't know why I texted in the first place.

Me:
C__, you asked where I stand on things and I voiced hurt - because you asked.  This is an example of how when I am asked to open up, it becomes about how you are hurt and how I should hear your hurt.

There is no recognition here of how I am hurt.  It's become "I hurt too" and then how I am not hearing your hurt.  You came to me asking for me to open up.

Her:
(Sends snapshot of my post saying "
"T__/C___, you do this too.  You feel this way, but I need *you* to see that I feel this way too," has never really bridged any gaps between us.)

Me:

If we are using each other's words, "being so focused on telling each other to connect with us instead of connecting with each other."

I believed you were reaching out to bridge a gap through the hurt - to connect with me.  To ask me to open up.  To work through that.

I opened up with hurt.  I'm not sure where you feel you voiced any acknowledgement or recognition of that hurt or even sorrow that I feel it.

It was brushed aside.  I was told you hurt too.  I was told to hear your hurt.  I was told to connect with you whereas I thought you were reaching out to connect with me and to try to establish a connection working through what I felt.

As far as your snip of what I said, I was trying to turn to understanding by asking where you feel you stand.  I was told "forget it", which shut the door on that.  Please don't shut the door with a "forget it" and then put it on me that I did not continue to try to understand.

Her:
I sent you an email. I had started typing it before you even said "I'm not sure where you feel you voiced an acknowledgement or recognition of that hurt or even sorry that I feel it."
It is interesting how predictable we have become.

(Note:  the email was a breakdown of the conversation and cited her "ok" early on as her recognition/acknowledgment of what I felt, saying that having acknowledged, she had moved on to her feelings.  Copied parts of the email follow (italics):

Considering that I acknowledged your point, and felt I had listened to the point of extremely painful, but you continued, I no longer viewed it as me asking for your input. I no longer view it as you providing what I asked for. The first part was, but I acknowledged… and you provided MORE…. VOLUNTARILY…. Very much like the voluntary input I gave at the beginning.

You expressed feelings BEYOND what I asked for, and I responded with feelings you did not ask for… and MY feelings are part of the problem? Why do you have to always make ME the problem?

It did not become about how I am hurt until you went beyond the information I asked for initially. I merely said “ok”. I did not address or express my hurt at that point. You answered the question I asked for. I never asked for more than that. When you gave more than that, I understood it to be an exchange… true intimacy. Most reasonable people would. I acknowledged what you said.

You accuse me of not recognizing your hurt. I did. I acknowledged it. I said ok.
You shared more hurt and I thought it was now an exchange. You are now saying I asked for that. Did I? When you look at the conversation after all this, did I ask for you to share your guilty feeling? No. But that is where the hurt I did not acknowledge started.

Should I have acknowledged it? Sure. We can run with that. But, then, you acknowledged my hurting and then went on to dismiss it. So did you really acknowledge mine? And then you threw in the gem of…
 
"’T__/C__, you do this too. You feel this way, but I need you to see that I feel this way too,’ has never really bridged any gaps between us.”

Which is a sure way to get me to stop noting when you want me to acknowledge you and you don’t have to acknowledge me.

More dismissiveness. And yet (going with the never bridging option) you tell me all the time that I’m dismissive of you.

You keep saying you see my pain, you see my heart, you see my hurt, you see… you imagine… whatever. But then you turn around and demonstrate otherwise.

I DID it. I acknowledged you. But that wasn’t good enough.
)

Me:
I read it and see that a lot hinges on two letters:  ok.

"Ok" can communicate a lot of things and be said in a lot of tones for a lot of reasons.  In the past, even, we've had a conversation about my misreading it because you sometimes communicate one thing with it and sometimes another.

"Ok" says that you see the message, see the words, but... how clearly does it acknowledge that you hear the pain?  That you have listened and hear the message and the feeling?  That you are actively caring about the feeling?  That what was said matters?

What I am voicing is that I never felt listened to or that my feelings were validated.  An "ok" does not communicate that.

If you want me to feel that my opening up matters or that what I feel matters, "ok" does not do that.  Roles reversed, I'm pretty sure that it would not for you, because you may wonder... did he say ok because he's pissed off and doesn't want to hear more?  Did he say it because he heard and is too sad for words?  What does it mean?

I can't read your mind, so everything after that came out of never feeling heard.  Of course it seemed that you turned things into being about how I do things too and need to hear you... you used two nebulous letters that could as easily say "I see you sent a message" and then a lot more than two letters about how I do things too and how I should hear you.

Her:
I can see why you feel that way. I am sorry you are hurting. I'm sorry you feel that I did not give you enough validation. Or give it in the right way.

I mean that as "I'm sorry it wasn't enough." Not in a snarky way of "Well, you may feel that way, but I can't help that". I truly am sorry I'm not giving you enough.

Me:
It may be the Ti.  A lot goes on in you.  It's possible that it's difficult for you to realize it's internal and not voiced in a way that communicates what's inside.  Does that feel true?

(Note:  Ti refers to Jung / Myers-Briggs "introverted thinking."  As an INFJ, Ti is one of her cognitive functions (tertiary) and coupled with primary Ni (introverted intuition), means a lot goes on under the surface.)

Her:
I'd rather not talk about what I feel

« Last Edit: September 04, 2019, 10:37:57 AM by Witz_End » Logged
Witz_End
***
Offline Offline

What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Romantic partner
Posts: 152


« Reply #5 on: September 04, 2019, 10:36:51 AM »

Me:
Okay.  Something that I think would help is if you'd hear me when I say I don't feel heard.  I mean it when I say it and it feels like when I say it, you listen more to your thoughts on why I should feel heard than you do understand why I do not.  The email you sent was exactly that - why I should have felt heard and why I should have been able to move on to "an exchange... true intimacy", implying that I am not a reasonable person because "most reasonable people would."  It did that rather than seek to understand where I had not felt heard.

Her:
supercalifragilisticexpialidocious

I'm starting to feel like we are beyond help

Me:
That is another response that can cause trouble.  You seem to say it often when you are upset by what I have said.  Nevermind.

Her:
Is that all you think that is?
Yah. Nevermind

Me:
You are doing the same thing.  Blaming me for not knowing how you mean it (what's in your head).

You don't want to talk about your thoughts and feelings.  I offer something that would help me greatly in our communication.  You respond with a word that you use to indicate reaction but which really doesn't communicate.  Then you get upset because I don't know how to take it.

Her:
I thought you said nevermind

Me:
I did.  You disregarded it.  If you disregard the nevermind yourself, please do not blame me for responding.

Earlier, you indicated you wanted to stop and I erased everything I was typing to instead say "okay" and leave you be.  You were the one to turn around and continue.

This has become your game latrly, not mine.  You have been the one lately to say things to bait me back in regardless of whether you said "let's stop" or I said "nevermind."

Do not bait me back in and then act like I am not dropping it.  That is gaslighting.

Her:
I get it now. Please respond to this and I will read it. I will not bait you back in.

Me:
What?

Her:
Do you want to nevermind?

Asking what defeats the purpose of the nevermind. It also baits me back in.

Me:
So, you tell me you "get it" and then tell me to respond to your message and that you'll read it and you promise me you will not bait me back in...

...and I say "What?" not understanding what you are looking for in response...

...and you blame me for not neverminding?

What is THAT if not a game?

I'm done.
Logged
Witz_End
***
Offline Offline

What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Romantic partner
Posts: 152


« Reply #6 on: September 04, 2019, 10:54:55 AM »

That is the whole thing, bumps bruises and all.

To be clear, I do want the truth.  I recognize where over the years, I have developed sensitivitiess and frustrstions that trigger things in me.  It's okay to be honest where you see that.

For example... yes, I see how I responded to her email.  Ironically and hypocritically, I did not acknowledge that she felt overwhelmed by more than she expected as I had opened up.  Instead, I focused on what I saw as a communication problem that had left me feeling discounted.

That is, also, part of the check of posting this.  She asked me to review it (see post earlier), so I am asking for help reviewing it for what she sees.

Another part of it, though, is a question of whether I am hypersensitive from years of my feelings being discounted... and whether there really is a bending of things around to hers.  I mean, the fallout from this is summed up in the message I posted earlier that sparked my coming here for review... it has become about her feeling "lombasted" and not safe and her demeanor since has been an attitude of my being in the doghouse as aggressor and her being victim.  So, things *have I been bent around to that.

Something that is likely a factor is that I did touch on her infidelity.  You may have seen other threads detailing that.  But, every single time I have tried to discuss it has gone awry in one way or another and she has never shown herself receptive to how hurtful it has been for me.

So, some of what may be going on here is either her reacting to that or my perceiving reaction to that (in other words, overly sensitive reaction in me to that conversation having been repeatedly shut down).

Thoughts are very appreciated.  I know it's a lot to read.  Thank you for taking the time!
Logged
once removed
BOARD ADMINISTRATOR
**
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
Posts: 12608



« Reply #7 on: September 04, 2019, 12:17:45 PM »

there arent any winners here.

there is a lot of distrust. a lot of tit for tat. a lot of defensiveness. im sure you can recognize that. the harder part is Stopping the Bleeding.

before we get to where you could have improved, lets go back to the beginning.

to really grossly simplify, this might be an analogy: take two teenagers in love. they arent "official". they are good friends, but both have been hurt, so theyve taken an official relationship off the table for now, under the premise that they hope to get there.

they sleep together. its nice in the moment. the next morning its awkward. she goes home. she cant stop thinking about it. wondering what it means. wondering if it meant to him what it meant to her. wondering where they stand. so she asks.

what she hears is that he isnt sure. what comes up is the problems the two have between them. he goes on to tell her that this sort of neediness is what gives him pause.

i think that she felt confused, and possibly used with regard to the cuddling. i think thats where she was coming from. i think that in the process, she felt shut down, and as the conversation progressed, it reinforced that feeling. she states that her conclusion is no more cuddling. what shes saying is shes afraid to be vulnerable again so shes withdrawing. gottman describes this in his stages of relationship breakdown: https://bpdfamily.com/content/your-relationship-breaking-down

i understand the analogy is not precise. i know you have your own hurts in all of this. stopping the bleeding often requires setting those aside...just for a time. from your end in the conversation, it might have been better to primarily listen, and reflect back what youre hearing. to take some time to consider it. then if need be, to state your case. she might even be more receptive to it, at that point.

lets walk some of it through from my perspective. let me know if you see it, or if im off base.

Excerpt
You: Right now, I am really not sure what I want and there are conflicting forces in me.
...
It says something that despite that, there is pull to come back together.  The cynic wonders if we're gluttons for punishment or if there's an unhealthy codependence.  The romantic wonders at the tie that's there... the glue that's held us together despite it all.

Her: That is where I realized a big part of what keeps me with you is not codependence.
...
Still... how we proceed needs to be intentional.

i suspect what she heard here "im not sure where we stand. im not sure if this is love or craziness (invalidating). maybe both."

i think what shes saying is very telling, especially the last line. i hear "maybe. but my love for you is not codependency. i want to know where we stand. dont send me mixed signals. dont cuddle with me if youre conflicted."

Excerpt
are we back at a point where 23 years of the negative is the focus and someone else is there who is the greener grass?  Are you back to seeing the 23 years as a waste and is that another 3 added?

this sounds like "you understand why i cant trust you, right? youve said all these things. how am i supposed to know the difference?"

Excerpt
Me:
I feel guilty for even saying it.  I want to reach out.  I see you reaching out.  I'd like to work through it and reach through it.  But, I also feel you deserve honesty.  So, there's this conflict inside.

nice recovery.

Excerpt
Her:
I have experienced the same with you often. I understand. At the same time, please understand that it takes a lot of faith and trust for me to say these things, just like it is hard for you to open up. I feel very slapped down.

It is probably best we stick to no cuddling for now.

i think this says she gets it. she doesnt like it, it hurts, but she gets it, both that you are conflicted and why. shes saying shes not prepared to take another risk.

Excerpt
Me: But, that's part of the problem... if you're asking for openness and to understand where I am, I need to be open.

You mentioned the pitfall of having expectations. Is the slapped down feeling because there were expectations?
...
We expect or hope for an answer or a reciprocation of our sentiment and when the other opens up with something else, we retreat hurt and leave the other regretting the honesty, rather than finding a way to take it and work with and through it.

I'm saddened by the no cuddling, but I understand it.

what you say here is kind of an elegant way of saying "hey, just being honest, sorry if you dont like it". the part about expectations could reasonably be interpreted as "its your fault for getting your hopes up over the cuddling." its a double whammy to a person taking a risk and feeling used. im not sure "lambasted" would be my choice of words; im not sure the choice of words matters. she was attempting to walk away with some dignity. this was a kick straight in her pride.

Excerpt
But here is the thing. You do the same.
...
Does it matter the details of the slapped down feeling when you feel it? Would you want me picking it apart with questions like you just asked? Or would you more want me to see that you were feeling that way and just listen?

As for expecting reciprocation, that too feels like you are taking my own expressed ideas and concepts and using them against me... again, demonstrating that I am much safer to avoid the interaction.
...

Me:
"T__/C__, you do this too.  You feel this way, but I need *you* to see that I feel this way too," has never really bridged any gaps between us.

i think this was the turning point of no return in the conversation. it is defensive, it isnt listening, and it shuts her/it down. it was a reaction to the first part of what she said. it didnt hear the rest. thats really the hard part about listening with empathy. it takes filtering out some of the drama. the rest, the non drama version is still "i took a big risk and i dont feel heard, and now i feel ridiculed".

Excerpt
Her:
ok. I think I'm done with this converstion

Me:
Okay.

Her:
I at least have a better idea of where I stand. So there's that.

Excerpt
She has, lately, played a game of asking to end a conversation, then coming back with bitter words or a jab

i dont see this as a game. its a defensive dig, a last word thing. shes trying, again, to walk away with some pride. to save face.

Excerpt
Me:
I'm understanding that to be a continuation of the conversation.

I hear the hurt in that and am sorry that you are hurting.  Where is it that you feel you stand?

Her:
Then hear the hurt

the HURT

Forget it. I don't know why I texted in the first place.

its too late, at this point. the conversation has broken down too far.

Excerpt
Me:
C__, you asked where I stand on things and I voiced hurt - because you asked.  This is an example of how when I am asked to open up, it becomes about how you are hurt and how I should hear your hurt.

this is defensive. what she likely hears, again, is "you got what you asked for. suck it up."

Excerpt
Her:
(Sends snapshot of my post saying "
"T__/C___, you do this too.  You feel this way, but I need *you* to see that I feel this way too," has never really bridged any gaps between us.)

this is her immature way of trying harder to be heard rather than walking away.

from this point onward, most of the rest of the conversation is a JADEfest on both sides. a "you do this, you do that, i have hurt and youre ignoring my hurt". it would have been ideal to recognize where the conversation went off the rails, and take a healthy time out, and/or to let her save some face.

its hard. i get that theres a long history here, and much more than this conversation. no judgment.

Excerpt
That is, also, part of the check of posting this.  She asked me to review it (see post earlier), so I am asking for help reviewing it for what she sees.

i guess the question is where you want to go from here. has anything else happened since? do you want to repair things?
Logged

     and I think it's gonna be all right; yeah; the worst is over now; the mornin' sun is shinin' like a red rubber ball…
Witz_End
***
Offline Offline

What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Romantic partner
Posts: 152


« Reply #8 on: September 04, 2019, 10:41:44 PM »

OM... I wanted to let you know I appreciate the reply and I see a lot of things you're pointing out.  I do want to come back and give a more thought answer.

Part of the reason I can't at the moment is the  Cursing - won't cause site restrictions at Starbucks (click to insert in post) kinda hit the fan and I'm in for some wild storm, I think.

Causal chain.  I have no clue what I was thinking, honestly.  Well, I kind of do, but as smart as I am, I can also be really dumb.

I wanted to show her I am seriously examining things and working to better my self and my communication for us.  She had mentioned our stepping back was to work on ourselves as individuals to "be better halves in order to work toward being a better whole."  She also is aware that I am starting with a therapist myself, soon.  But...

...as a part of showing her how seriously I was going back through the conversation to understand, I mentioned "an online forum that is kind of a support group environment where people can learn to better their communication with spouses."  I mentioned floating it out for perspectives and what I had realized.  I apologized and summed up how I saw she probably feels.

And, yes, I saw the idea I had sought help and talked to others about her and the conversation grow into "I feel so betrayed" despite the anonymity involved and my intentional choice not to ever involve anyone who knew her.  (Really, I don't even reach out to friends.)

Coming right off of that conversation, with me doing my best not to JADE or fall into the same pitfalls again, she turned straight to a call with her boyfriend in which she broke up with him.

So, now she's pissed at me AND hurting from the breakup, shut quiet in the room, but storm brewing.  I offered I'm here if she wants an ear or needs a distraction like watching TV or needs anything.  I made her a grilled ham, cheese and tomato sandwich and some tomato soup and took it to her in bed.  Otherwise, I am giving her space.

All this to say... I'll get back to you.
Logged
Witz_End
***
Offline Offline

What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Romantic partner
Posts: 152


« Reply #9 on: September 05, 2019, 03:39:51 PM »

Now that I have more time to sort through and respond with any meaningfulness...

First, thank you so much for your honesty.  A lot of what you pointed out really did have me stepping back and thinking.  I use an analogy sometimes when I'm talking about things like grief from a tragedy.  I say it's like a dark hole opening in front of you and if you're not careful and don't have the outside support for balance, you can find your head stuck in it.

Relationships like this can be like that in some ways.  The baggage and patterns are a hole you can find your head stuck in.  In that sense, it can have the effect of pulling you into seeing things from your own pain and needs.

Additionally, something that's always been a factor for me is childhood.  I grew up with a mother who was not abusive and I don't know whether to say she could have been something along the lines of NPD, but... she'd always had control issues and my voice and feelings were always squelched.  I couldn't talk to her about things that hurt me - they'd be dismissed or reflected back or whatever.  Ownership and apologies lacked.

One of the mechanisms I developed was:  push.  It's a tendency to latch on and not let go until I am convinced you see it / hear it.  Sometimes it's more obvious to me when I'm doing it than others.

She is aware of this.  In fact, she sees how my mother and family can be and really dislikes how they treat me.  I've spoken with her about how that's shaped a need in me to feel heard.  It's a little but like someone starved, who becomes sensitive about being starved.  It's painful sometimes to know she recognizes it and how it manifests in the relationship...  yet... *sigh*  But? that's BPD, right?

It is something, though, that says that I'm especially sensitive to JADEing when it comes to close relationships.  Not as much here on the boards or with people further out in the rings of closeness.  She brought up the topic of narcissism or narcissistic tendencies in me and perhaps that's not all projection.  It's hard to say how much of it is brought out as response to BPD/NPD traits and how much may have become part of how I operate.

So, there's a lot of self-reflection here as well.  Which is why I appreciate the candor.  It would have been nice to hear others weigh in as well.

there is a lot of distrust. a lot of tit for tat. a lot of defensiveness. im sure you can recognize that. the harder part is Stopping the Bleeding.

Definitely on all accounts.

Excerpt
to really grossly simplify, this might be an analogy: take two teenagers in love...

The analogy helped greatly, actually.  Sometimes it takes that kind of thing to stop and reframe things.

Excerpt
i know you have your own hurts in all of this. stopping the bleeding often requires setting those aside...just for a time.

It does.  There are times when I am more able.  A problem is the "...just for a time."  That "just for a time" tends too often to be a "just for an always" and the problem there is the build inside that creates.  There are times, and often it depends on the depth of topic/hurt, where she does hear... but, it's more exception than rule.

Excerpt
from your end in the conversation, it might have been better to primarily listen, and reflect back what youre hearing. to take some time to consider it. then if need be, to state your case. she might even be more receptive to it, at that point.

I've supposedly learned that. 7 years ago I even told someone that the "first rule of C___" is that she needs to be heard first when she has feelings on something.  She will not be receptive till after.

But that receptivity also depends on topic.  There are those things that are third rails and I've learned I can't be heard on.  Her infidelity was touched on here and that is one.

lets walk some of it through from my perspective. let me know if you see it, or if im off base.

Excerpt
i think what shes saying is very telling, especially the last line. i hear "maybe. but my love for you is not codependency. i want to know where we stand. dont send me mixed signals. dont cuddle with me if youre conflicted."

The cuddling conflicted is something she actually understands well.  There are periods where she, I or both (though most often she) decide it's better not to as a way to not gloss things over when there are bumps.  But, she'll be the first to tell you that even then - she is conflicted and sometimes gives in to the urge or need to cuddle.

I think the mixed signals are bigger picture.  I mean, there are things that imply a bigger picture in what I voiced - one that touches on fear of abandonment.  That's more likely the issue.

Excerpt
this sounds like "you understand why i cant trust you, right? youve said all these things. how am i supposed to know the difference?"

Yeah.  An echo of that fear of abandonment trigger.

Excerpt
the part about expectations could reasonably be interpreted as "its your fault for getting your hopes up over the cuddling."

"Expectations" was a reference to a video or something she had seen that listed a problem that can come out of couple communication is addressing something with expectations of what the response will be - and consequent turbulence when you get something other than expected.

It had nothing to do with cuddling and was more a question of... is part of what's going awry here that my answer fell outside what you expected.  But, that is also part of the "elegant" way of asking her whether she had really wanted the honesty.

Excerpt
i guess the question is where you want to go from here. has anything else happened since? do you want to repair things?

See above about since.  As far as repair, there is conflict inside.  I so badly want things to work, but see probabilities and slide back and forth on whether it's prolonging things.  There is a lot of good, but the bad had piled and piled.  So, in a way, I'm in holding pattern trying to keep options open as I sort through and look forward to counseling that may help.
Logged
once removed
BOARD ADMINISTRATOR
**
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
Posts: 12608



« Reply #10 on: September 10, 2019, 11:45:07 PM »

Excerpt
One of the mechanisms I developed was:  push.  It's a tendency to latch on and not let go until I am convinced you see it / hear it.  Sometimes it's more obvious to me when I'm doing it than others.

i get it. on the Detaching board we call it "saying it louder to be heard". on Bettering we call it JADEing. its something im familiar with myself.

Excerpt
A problem is the "...just for a time."
...
There are times, and often it depends on the depth of topic/hurt, where she does hear... but, it's more exception than rule.

i think this is bound to happen when a relationship, and trust within that relationship has broken down.

are you familiar with the fair fighting rules?

Excerpt
I even told someone that the "first rule of C___" is that she needs to be heard first when she has feelings on something.  She will not be receptive till after.

sure. this can be true for all of us, but more so with someone with bpd traits.

Excerpt
But, she'll be the first to tell you that even then - she is conflicted and sometimes gives in to the urge or need to cuddle.

this is why emotional leadership is critical.

it sounds to me like there is love, and there is desire and longing. it also sounds like there is great distrust and fear, and im understating. my sense is that you have both been burned by vulnerability.

in order to get on a different trajectory, someone has to bite the bullet and lead.

Excerpt
It had nothing to do with cuddling and was more a question of...

would she have known this?

how are things since? any developments?
Logged

     and I think it's gonna be all right; yeah; the worst is over now; the mornin' sun is shinin' like a red rubber ball…
Witz_End
***
Offline Offline

What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Romantic partner
Posts: 152


« Reply #11 on: September 11, 2019, 12:55:43 AM »

are you familiar with the fair fighting rules?

Not as a system, though I can take guesses from the name.

Excerpt
would she have known this?

It was recently that she pointed it out and she tends to make those connections.  I am guessing she would have, but to be fair that is assumption.

Excerpt
how are things since? any developments?

Up and down.  I hit critical mass Saturday and you may have seen the thread asking about crisis and hospital admission (for me).

Her underlying tone the past few days since has been a steady negativity that things can ever recover on one hand ("we've gone too far to make it back")... and, extremely oddly, some rounds of brilliant communication and breakthrough.

If you're familiar with Myers-Briggs and cognitive functions, she attributes the latter to switching from her type (INFJ) to her shadow (ENFP) under stressed state.  The nature of shadows is that they carry an inverse of extroversion/introversion of the same cognitive functions.  In natural state, I am an ENFP - we are shadows of each other.

I can explain that further if need be, but the gist is that when we are in natural states, she extroverts via feeling and thinking is more internal /introverted.  I extrovert my thoughts, but introvert my feeling.  I can talk about my feelings, but it comes our more as thought and thought exploration of them... rather than emotive expression.  So, I can usually explain how and why and what I feel as thought in a more organized way than emotive.

Her analysis was that, in shadow, she was able to communicate more on that extroverted thinking level, unhooked from more emotive mode by the numbness.  This meant we were more able to communicate in a more synchronous way and she was able to explain things in a more thought out way... and, similarly, to receive what I had to say with thought, as well.

Maybe related to that, something unique is happening.  For the first time I can ever recall, she seems able to process where BOTH of us have screwed up.  I am so used to it being unidirectional cycles... the devaluing me (YOU need to fix yourself) cycling into devaluing herself (I can't believed you've stayed with me as horrible as I am).  It's actually been pretty balanced and she's been pretty quick to see some things and actually take ownership of them... as have I in the give and take.

How long will this last?  I don't know.  And it's not a perfect process.  There was a blow-up today, though it was talked out.  In talking it out and both accepting our roles moreso than usual, there was another moment where she got up and stormed out... but, then, on her own she had a realization about it and sent me a message apologizing and showing consideration of what it said to me.

If it is a "shadow type" thing, though, that's not sustainable.

Meanwhile, I had come in to post something I was musing on and probably will do a separate thread on tomorrow or something...

Did you know BPD symptoms in women are affected by estrogen and, to a secondary degree, progesterone levels?  Have you noticed it worse during pre-menstruation and into the period?  There is supposedly a link where the same crash in estrogen and progesterone production that brings about PMS greatly increases BPD symptoms.

Logged
SadtimesAZ

*
Offline Offline

What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
Posts: 49


« Reply #12 on: September 11, 2019, 02:11:58 AM »

It's the no win argument, "I'm done with this conversation" I heard that so many times. Engage and cut you off for having an opinion, your opinion is always wrong anyway hence you lose. Black or white thinking, no middle ground. If you're not happy the only option is to save yourself. I'm only 40 and spent 11 years with my wife, I love her to death but she is one of the most toxic people I've ever met. It hurts letting go, it's a natural feeling to want a connection with someone but if it's not mutual it's not healthy.
Logged
Stillhopeful4
****
Offline Offline

Gender: Female
What is your sexual orientation: Gay, lesb
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Romantic partner
Posts: 470



« Reply #13 on: September 11, 2019, 09:31:57 AM »

It's the no win argument, "I'm done with this conversation" I heard that so many times.

Ditto...
Logged

Witz_End
***
Offline Offline

What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Romantic partner
Posts: 152


« Reply #14 on: September 11, 2019, 10:49:30 AM »

It's the no win argument, "I'm done with this conversation" I heard that so many times.

Well, to be honest, I was pushing.  But, yes... it comes out for different reasons, usually when she's overloaded with frustration or avoiding facing something. 
Logged
once removed
BOARD ADMINISTRATOR
**
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
Posts: 12608



« Reply #15 on: September 11, 2019, 12:41:57 PM »

Excerpt
Not as a system, though I can take guesses from the name.

it really pays to learn them. i use them all the time.

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=164901.0

Excerpt
you may have seen the thread asking about crisis and hospital admission (for me).

i did. good move.

Excerpt
If you're familiar with Myers-Briggs

 Paragraph header (click to insert in post) the mbti can be a useful personality tool, and in fact its one of the most used in the world, but it is scientifically bunk.

i mention this because it can be risky to base your understandings of each other and your relationship on it.
Logged

     and I think it's gonna be all right; yeah; the worst is over now; the mornin' sun is shinin' like a red rubber ball…
SadtimesAZ

*
Offline Offline

What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
Posts: 49


« Reply #16 on: September 12, 2019, 04:55:49 PM »

See witz you are making excuses for her. I did that for years. You can't have a logical conversation with an illogical person. I have had facts and conversations get so twisted by my ex it's ridiculous. I realized that her conversation's were either fishing expeditions or telling me how it was going to be period. If I didn't agree I was the bad guy, period end of conversation. Dr. Janeene DeMarte described bpd best at the Jodi Arias trial, your dealing with an angry 5 year old in an adult body. Eventually the conversation will end with "leave me alone", every time she gets called out or caught. Every time I presented my ex with facts, leave me alone,  no responsibility for her actions.
Logged
Witz_End
***
Offline Offline

What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Romantic partner
Posts: 152


« Reply #17 on: September 12, 2019, 05:36:48 PM »

See witz you are making excuses for her.

Which do you see as excuses?

I know that I do and I have at times and may be here.  But, as easy as it may be to say "she's BPD, she's the problem," that can lead down the same path as BPD where fault is all seen on one side.  I can't assume that she's right or things are understandable, but the reverse of that is she is not always wrong or in the wrong.
Logged
Witz_End
***
Offline Offline

What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Romantic partner
Posts: 152


« Reply #18 on: September 12, 2019, 05:44:47 PM »

i did. good move.

In what sense?  Looking out for myself?  Maybe.

Excerpt
Paragraph header (click to insert in post) the mbti can be a useful personality tool, and in fact its one of the most used in the world, but it is scientifically bunk.

i mention this because it can be risky to base your understandings of each other and your relationship on it.

I see it as a framework that can serve as a tool to understanding.  At the same time, I recognize the pitfalls.  She is very apt to attribute the BPD traits to being INFJ and it is a way she excuses it.

One of the things I have learned is that typing, itself, can be problematic with mental disorders - how do you differentiate between MBTI traits and disorder traits?  And that is exactly a problem here, especially when she plays the "you don't understand" card (INFJ's generally feel misunderstood).

So, I get where it can present problems, but it can also provide a languaging and a framework for understanding.  Her analysis above is an example where it could be seen and languaged through the shared understanding of the framework.
Logged
Witz_End
***
Offline Offline

What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Romantic partner
Posts: 152


« Reply #19 on: September 12, 2019, 10:50:55 PM »

Lol witz, I'm an INFJ male. We look at things from all sides.

Which can create the agility in a BPD mind to adopt the perspective that suits the BPD need, as you can imagine.  Splitting, as well.  Or think Ni-Ti loop and how that plays.

She explained to me last night that hitting herself (self harm / literally balling fists and pummeling her head) was about breaking Ni-Ti loops, as if that's a sort of behavior explained as INFJ-related.  As I sat listening, it was even more clear how much she processes the BPD as INFJ.

I mean, yes... it may be the loop, but I'm pretty sure it's the loop on BPD (insert the old "this is your brain... this is your brain on drugs" commercial here for analogy) and I'd wager most INFJ's don't punch themselves in the head to break it.

Excerpt
As narc as it may sound my wife twisted everything to her perspective. I even had people text me things from her that were my advice to her twisted to be the bad guy. My ex was looking for excuses to blow off a long time "friend" who she was distancing herself from. I told my wife if you don't want to see her just tell her. The "friend" sent me a screenshot of the conversation between them, "his mom decided to come to town at the last minute and I didn't know and he wanted me to tell you to just f off".

Why be the bad guy when you can be the bad guy for her, I suppose.    Being cool (click to insert in post)

Excerpt
She did it to her first husband too, luckily he only got it for about a year. Her first husband told everyone who would listen that she was crazy, and she said it was him who had the problem. I learned the hard way after non stop arguments, suicide threats, eating disorders, sleepless nights for 10 years what he meant.

This is familiar.  I'm not sure what really went down in her previous marriage and honestly I do think the guy was a lot of the problem.  I do know, from her, that her intense anger was an issue for him, too.  And yet, it's been held against me for a long, long time that I voiced the same, ignoring the pattern as having been through two marriages.

He was a problem, though, and may have had NPD/BPD issues of his own.  She was not allowed to have male friends and being even 30 mins late coming home led to insinuations or accusations she was cheating.  Yet, he would leave in the evening to go to the store for some milk and not return until something like 5am... routinely.  There are some things she won't lie about and I don't think his behavior was fabrication.  There is undoubtedly a middle ground to the story, like yes... he spent nights out, but how much of that was response to feeling blasted with anger and not feeling he could do anything right in her eyes?

What gets me is that I had 100% faith in her fidelity... until after she nearly left me for another man.  Even then, I forgave her and saw it as a one-off, understanding my own contributions to our problems may have contributed.  But, now, having gone through a second case of that situation, my trust in her fidelity is pretty damaged.

And yet... anytime I bring the topic up, she refers back to her ex and how he used to accuse her constantly.  She draws the parallel between him and me and it boggles my mind how the difference is ignored.  I do believe that he had insecurities and accused her regularly without cause, but... I trusted her for over a decade and only questioned after it was a known thing she almost left me for the guy.  Even then, I only questioned her fidelity in *those* cases, never suggesting or questioning other friends or playing the "where were you" interrogation game with her when she's been out.

To top that off, *after* healing and resuming trust from the first time, we did enter a swinging and later polyamorous lifestyle.  I've seen her with other guys and even dropped her off for play dates.  I've been anything but jealous when it comes to other men on the whole, only questioning her honesty and lack of ownership with these two cases.

So, it just boggles my mind that when I bring up how I see these cases as having been affairs, the response is a threatening "J didn't trust me either and how did that end up going for him?"

The implied threat there is an almost comical irony.. after being accused over and over without cause by her ex, she found herself in a situation with a guy where she had the choice to stay loyal or not.  Her decision was "I'm going to be accused either way and I'm tired of that.  If I'm going to be accused, I might as well be accused for something I did, not something I didn't do."  So, she had sex with the guy.  The irony?  That was before she knew me... and yet the guy is the same guy she's almost left me for twice, starting 15 years after that situation.

So, her ex accused her constantly and she had sex with this guy out of frustration with false accusation.  I trusted her completely and she almost left me for the same guy.  INFJ's recognize patterns well, right?

I am rambling a bit, I know.  It's a little bit of a vent.
« Last Edit: September 12, 2019, 10:57:50 PM by Witz_End » Logged
once removed
BOARD ADMINISTRATOR
**
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
Posts: 12608



« Reply #20 on: September 12, 2019, 11:10:11 PM »

Excerpt
how do you differentiate between MBTI traits and disorder traits?

do you think trying might over complicate things?

isnt this more of an emotional conflict between the two of you?
Logged

     and I think it's gonna be all right; yeah; the worst is over now; the mornin' sun is shinin' like a red rubber ball…
Witz_End
***
Offline Offline

What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Romantic partner
Posts: 152


« Reply #21 on: September 12, 2019, 11:55:55 PM »

do you think trying might over complicate things?

I'm not sure I follow the question 100%.  Differentiating between type and disorder?  I think what is helpful to me is understanding.  Learning about BPD aids understanding.  Using the framework of MBTI, despite imperfections, aids understanding.  Listening certainly does too, but on that note, she speaks in terms of MBTI often, so it is her language.

Differentiating between the two on my part can help me see where something is coming from.  Is she processing something a certain way because it's just a difference in personality type or is this a facet of BPD poking its head up?  Understanding can help me know what may be coming next or even what may be a more helpful response.

Ultimately, no, it's not critical to differentiate.  What is more important is working on my own response.  I get that.  As much as it may be just the way I am wired, I do find it helpful to understand, though.

Excerpt
isnt this more of an emotional conflict between the two of you?

Part of the emotional conflict is an out-of-sync-ness as a couple.  I guess the way I see it is that understanding and communication help re-syncing.

Or even in the question of trust, understanding what drives a person in what they've done to damage trust can help.


Logged
Can You Help Us Stay on the Air in 2024?

Pages: [1]   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Our 2023 Financial Sponsors
We are all appreciative of the members who provide the funding to keep BPDFamily on the air.
12years
alterK
AskingWhy
At Bay
Cat Familiar
CoherentMoose
drained1996
EZEarache
Flora and Fauna
ForeverDad
Gemsforeyes
Goldcrest
Harri
healthfreedom4s
hope2727
khibomsis
Lemon Squeezy
Memorial Donation (4)
Methos
Methuen
Mommydoc
Mutt
P.F.Change
Penumbra66
Red22
Rev
SamwizeGamgee
Skip
Swimmy55
Tartan Pants
Turkish
whirlpoollife



Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.21 | SMF © 2006-2020, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!