Things have taken a strange turn.

[How to communicate after a contentious divorce...]

Okay.  Something weird happened yesterday that I’m still having trouble wrapping my mind around.  My ex contacted me out of the blue and now wants to have a sit down and talk about coming up with a custody schedule in which she wants me to have 50% custody, she also said that she has also put on the table that she doesn’t want support payments and alimony anymore.  She’s acting suspicious normal and agreeable and it’s hard for me to believe it.  I really want this to happen.  Obviously getting custody of the kids would be great and not having to pay support or alimony anymore would be ideal, but it’s hard to trust this.  It feels like charming.  I’m worried that this obviously sounds too good to be true.  I’m nervous because this will be the first time that we’ve talked face to face in months.  Obviously, I need to hear her out because of this is on the level this means an end to a lot of the chaos that has been rocking my world for almost a year:  Then again trusting her about anything is very difficult.  I have agreed to meet her in a public neutral location where there will be plenty of witnesses and video cameras around.  But I still feel really unsafe and concerned about where this will lead.  I think/hope she realizes it’s over between us.  And i hope she’s not looking for any kind of reconciliation because I don’t want to outright reject her because I think we all know how BPDs deal with rejection.  If she does realize it’s over that means I can really move on and start to rebuild my new life.   Help!  I am confused and really worried.  It’s like a dream come true but with the shade of a nightmare surrounding it. 

[pausercell]

Okay.  Something weird happened yesterday that I’m still having trouble wrapping my mind around.  My ex contacted me out of the blue and now wants to have a sit down and talk about coming up with a custody schedule in which she wants me to have 50% custody, she also said that she has also put on the table that she doesn’t want support payments and alimony anymore.  She’s acting suspicious normal and agreeable and it’s hard for me to believe it.  I really want this to happen.  Obviously getting custody of the kids would be great and not having to pay support or alimony anymore would be ideal, but it’s hard to trust this.  It feels like charming.  I’m worried that this obviously sounds too good to be true.  I’m nervous because this will be the first time that we’ve talked face to face in months.  Obviously, I need to hear her out because of this is on the level this means an end to a lot of the chaos that has been rocking my world for almost a year:  Then again trusting her about anything is very difficult.  I have agreed to meet her in a public neutral location where there will be plenty of witnesses and video cameras around.  But I still feel really unsafe and concerned about where this will lead.  I think/hope she realizes it’s over between us.  And i hope she’s not looking for any kind of reconciliation because I don’t want to outright reject her because I think we all know how BPDs deal with rejection.  If she does realize it’s over that means I can really move on and start to rebuild my new life.   Help!  I am confused and really worried.  It’s like a dream come true but with the shade of a nightmare surrounding it. 

[ForeverDad]

These have been a stressful few weeks for you.  Separated spouse files a TPO against you, the TPO is dismissed and you still have the prospect of several more weeks of supervised visitation.

So a good question is, Why does she want to meet to discuss 50/50 custody?  I think this may be a factor...

I have requested a Court Custody Investigation which is happening next week.

Right now she has temporary custody, a default initial status for many mothers.  However, depending on the depth and quality of the investigation, she may lose big time.  Hence, in part, this may be why she wants you to limit the impact of your requested investigation.

You're probably one of the Nice Guys, someone who wants to be - and wants to portray himself as - super fair and super nice.  The risk is that you may agree to too much in her favor while you try to show how nice you are.  A saying expressed around here, in general, The person behaving poorly seldom gets consequences and the person behaving well seldom gets credit.  That is especially true early in a case, courts expect some acting out but are willing to ignore it because it figures the initial conflict will fade.  It may not be ready to Accept that it is dealing with an acting-out PD at this early stage.  What that means is you have little upside by being too nice or too agreeable.

Yes, be polite.  Don't get triggered or led into any conflict where she could claim you were aggressive, threatening or abusive.  Best to have someone you trust nearby during this discussion.  But don't agree to terms you're not comfortable with.  Any terms reached during such discussions should be conditioned on you having time to ponder them later and consult with your attorney (and peer support such as here).  We've been there, done that.  What you're desperate to get now may, upon reflection months and years from now, be too little and hard to undo.

What does she mean by 50/50 custody?  Is she referring to the legal aspects?  Frankly, if you are not seen by the court and its associated professionals as substantively abusive, endangering or neglectful, then the courts typically do default the parents to joint custody.  (In my case that didn't happen until my divorce decree after a two year divorce process.)  What I'm saying is that if all she is offering is joint custody then that is most courts' eventual outcome anyway.

Something you may not be able to get early in the case but good to seek from the start is at least some level of control over likely future obstructions.  Ask your lawyer to include Decision Making or Tie Breaker status for any joint custody arrangement.  That will reduce the delays and obstructions your spouse can cause.

Is she's talking about 50/50 parenting schedule?  If so, then that's good, at least for a start.  Could it be that she's already feeling overwhelmed by caring for the kids so much of the time?

If her goal is to dissuade you from continuing that custody investigation, then be very careful.  That action is much of your current Leverage.  If you "gift it away" then your position will be weaker.

She can agree to no Alimony but ask your lawyer about that because I suspect she can change her mind anytime until the divorce's final decree.

She can agree to no Child Support but your lawyer would probably tell you that she could still file for it at a later time.  (And in at least some states, if she becomes dependent upon government financial aid, the state may step in and force you to pay child support.)

[pausercell]

Forever Dad, THANK YOU! 

This is great advice.  She has not requested that I stop the CCI so I am going to continue on with it.  She does want a 50/50 child schedule as oppose to simple joint custody.  Unfortunately, she wants only the two of us to meet, but I am making the meeting take place at the public library and I know some of the staff that work there already so I am going to ask them to keep an eye on things.  As for the divorce decree I am going to make sure we include language that there will be no spousal or child support in perpetuity even after the divorce had been finalized.  Also, I am going to ensure that she agrees any and all disputes regarding any matters dealing with support payments will be handled by an independent mediator of our choosing and not by the court.  What do you think?  Also I am going to as you suggested and inquire about a Decision Making and/or Tie Breaker agreement.  Just to clarify, what is that in general, just in case my lawyer needs some clarification.

I am taking what you said to heart about being too nice.  In general it’s in my nature to try and not rock the boat but in this instance I feel that I can be a lot more assertive considering that she is the one initiating contact and basically opening the door for me to tell her what I want out of an agreement.  Her case was weak to begin with and the further we progress the more the holes in her case are staring to shine through.  Not to mention her lawyers head must be spinning trying to keep all the lies that she’s told in order.  The vast exaggerations on her income/expense form were almost comical, her declarations are overly dramatic and and contradict themselves.  Overall, at the start she had the momentum because people were still reacting to the whole thing out of emotion.  Now, on the other hand people are taking a step back and asking questions that are very hard for her to explain. 

I believe she and her lawyer are realizing that they are at a disadvantage and are trying to settle this out of court as a means of preventing her case totally collapsing.  My intention is to meet with her, hear her out and ask for what I want/need.  I am willing to walk away at anytime if she isn’t reasonable and starts to make bigger demands. 

My lawyer has advised me to meet simply to see what she wants.  Since my ex’s requests were made via email they are admissible as evidence and my lawyer has said that if our meeting goes south for any reason we will be able to use her own words as the foundation for working out an agreement based on her initial requests and the court will definitely take it into consideration. 

I believe you’re correct about her feeling the stress of having to be the primary caretaker of the kids.  When we were living together I did the majority of the childrearing, I got them up and dressed for school, gave them breakfast, and then helped them with homework, set a bath and bed time.  Without me steering things I can’t imagine she’s doing well.  In point or fact at my last visitation my son showed up not wearing any shoes because he said that they were “running late.”  This fact was not lost on my visitation supervisor. 

For now I am gearing up to do as you have advised and am going to stay mindful of any provocations that she might send my way.  I’m living by the matra quoted in “Splitting” KEEP CALM.

Thanks again.  You have really helped me make sense of all of this and I will not gift away what I want in hopes of a more peaceful existence.  I’ve been there and done that for a long time and that time had passed. 

[livednlearned]

This does sound strange and it may take time for things to come to light in terms of explanation.

Doesn't matter. What does is that she signs papers and you can lock down the most favorable terms now while she is demonstrating an ability to be generous.

If it were my ex, I would wonder if the grandparents were rejecting the kids, or if there was a new partner in the picture.

Not to mention that yes, it's tough to be a good caretaker even in the best of circumstances.

Let us know how things unfold. A lot can happen, these things can have twists and turns.

[MeandThee29]

I believe she and her lawyer are realizing that they are at a disadvantage and are trying to settle this out of court as a means of preventing her case totally collapsing.  My intention is to meet with her, hear her out and ask for what I want/need.  I am willing to walk away at anytime if she isn’t reasonable and starts to make bigger demands. 

My lawyer has advised me to meet simply to see what she wants.  Since my ex’s requests were made via email they are admissible as evidence and my lawyer has said that if our meeting goes south for any reason we will be able to use her own words as the foundation for working out an agreement based on her initial requests and the court will definitely take it into consideration. 

I would mostly listen and not provide much in the way of showing your hand. Your lawyer has probably talked to you about that. Because you are in the midst of a legal transaction, you have to very thoughtful about it. Also watch yourself with email.

I admit that was totally naive about things like that. My lawyer called me to a face-to-face and politely pointed out the ramifications. Yes, I'm too nice as well.

[GaGrl]

If she is unstable and impulsive, make sure you get resident parent for school purposes, so she can't arbitrarily move and put them in another school district.

Are you planning to discreetly record your meeting with her?

[pausercell]

This is getting insane.  Just a few minutes ago she sent me a message saying that she no longer wants to meet.  I know it’s typical BPD behavior to shift wildly but this is intolerable.  Everything looked so positive and I thought we were making progress and then she pulls the rug right out from underneath me.  I don’t know what the heck is going on and she won’t tell me.  I guess I’m back where I started from and if she hadn’t sent me the message I would’ve been fine with everything it now I feel like I’m being toyed with.

[david]

My ex ran away with our two boys. She then wanted to go to a counselor to try to work things out. I listened and said little but did agree to counseling. We actually went to our parish priest to start the process. She agreed, in front of the priest, that she would make the appointment. The day before the meeting she emailed me saying she was too busy and couldn't make it. I talked to the priest and he suggested I go and let her know in case she changed her mind. I went and she never showed.
She pulled the rug out from under me several times after that. I learned to expect it and never showed my hand or what I was thinking. I listened most of the time. When I said anything it addressed exactly what she was talking about and I gave nothing more. I honestly believe she was trying to figure out what I was planning. When we were together I was an open book and I later realized she used that to keep me off balance.
I discovered the less she knew from me the better off I was because she used her imagination to make up what I was thinking. She was never right. I also learned what she was up to by her emails and threats. I came to realize she attacked me when she felt threatened/scared/lonely/whatever and I was a safe vent. She was using me the same way as when we were together.

[MeandThee29]

This is getting insane.  Just a few minutes ago she sent me a message saying that she no longer wants to meet.  I know it’s typical BPD behavior to shift wildly but this is intolerable.  Everything looked so positive and I thought we were making progress and then she pulls the rug right out from underneath me.  I don’t know what the heck is going on and she won’t tell me.  I guess I’m back where I started from and if she hadn’t sent me the message I would’ve been fine with everything it now I feel like I’m being toyed with.

Just remember that her reality is not your reality. It's not about you, it's about her. She thinks she can negotiate from a place of reason and fairness, but probably not. She probably got overwhelmed and decided to cancel. Discarding you yet again gave her control and put her back where she wants to be.

That's maybe not something you want to allow again. Certainly this sort of thing can be handled with the lawyers.

[ForeverDad]

Courts are very reluctant to change from the joint custody arrangement post-divorce.  (Initial temp orders are different, often one parent, the mother, is defaulted to temp custody on the assumption the divorce will be only months.)  Apparently they try to avoid one parent feeling restricted or blocked unless there is real basis to do so.

The problem with plain joint custody in our high conflict cases is that any major disagreements have to be addressed in court.  That can take months.  Meanwhile you're stuck with the current arrangement.  DM or TB limits the delay and puts to decision to go to court on the other's shoulders.  Note that those terms are not used in every state.

Decision Making means that you would make major decisions while in a joint custody status.  If your ex disagreed, it would be up to ex to contest it in court or mediation.  But you could still proceed without legal delays.

Tie Breaker status is similar but means that rather than informing ex first and proceeding, you instead ask for agreement first and then you can proceed as the tie breaker.  If your ex disagreed, it would be up to ex to contest it in court or mediation.  But you could still proceed without legal delays.

Another idea is to get a settlement or order that you are the Primary Parent for school decisions.  Mothers are often defaulted to that status but since our ex-spouse is a problem or inconsistent person, it is best to avoid him/her in charge there.  Disordered people are probably more likely to move around.  Do you want to risk having to follow your kids, with your ex moving around or even away?

[worriedStepmom]

As for the divorce decree I am going to make sure we include language that there will be no spousal or child support in perpetuity even after the divorce had been finalized. 

In my state, even if this were included in a decree, this is not enforceable.  Your lawyer can tell you if it is legal in your state. 

Also, I am going to ensure that she agrees any and all disputes regarding any matters dealing with support payments will be handled by an independent mediator of our choosing and not by the court.

In my state, the Attorney General's Office handles child support payments.  The person paying sends the check to the OAG, the OAG sends it to the person receiving.  The OAG can also handle enforcement if the payments aren't being made.  That isn't even required to be in the decree, it's just how it is.   Your lawyer can let you know what the norm is in your state.  Generally, for child support, there isn't a lot of wiggle room as to how it's handled.

My state doesn't do Tie Breaker or decision maker in those terms...but it does allow the individual rights to be listed out.  So my H and his ex have Joint Custody, but he has the sole right to determine mental health care and a bunch of other stuff for SD12. 

[mart555]

This is getting insane.  Just a few minutes ago she sent me a message saying that she no longer wants to meet.  I know it’s typical BPD behavior to shift wildly but this is intolerable.  Everything looked so positive and I thought we were making progress and then she pulls the rug right out from underneath me.  I don’t know what the heck is going on and she won’t tell me.  I guess I’m back where I started from and if she hadn’t sent me the message I would’ve been fine with everything it now I feel like I’m being toyed with.

Mine did that a few time when she was feeling like a bad mom. She wanted to sign the kids away and just take her money.  Then, 2 days later, she wanted to take everything away from me.  The cycle repeated a few times.    At least she canceled before you met.. so you did not waste as much time on this.   Don't keep your hopes up with the BPDs..

[livednlearned]

It's possible that she experienced splitting within herself. We often notice it when the splitting occurs toward us (good partner, bad partner), but it can also take place within (good self, bad self).

She may have been in a splitting phase where she was "bad self" and felt it was best to give up responsibility for the kids.

Then she split back (good self, bad dad) and changed her mind.

[MeandThee29]

It's possible that she experienced splitting within herself. We often notice it when the splitting occurs toward us (good partner, bad partner), but it can also take place within (good self, bad self).

She may have been in a splitting phase where she was "bad self" and felt it was best to give up responsibility for the kids.

Then she split back (good self, bad dad) and changed her mind.

Oh boy, I never considered that, but it makes perfect sense. My therapist has often said that what happens inside is seen outside.

[MeandThee29]

It's possible that she experienced splitting within herself. We often notice it when the splitting occurs toward us (good partner, bad partner), but it can also take place within (good self, bad self).

She may have been in a splitting phase where she was "bad self" and felt it was best to give up responsibility for the kids.

Then she split back (good self, bad dad) and changed her mind.

Gosh golly, that makes sense. My therapist has often said that what happens inside is seen outside and may be even worse inside.

[pausercell]

I had my initial interview with the Court Custody Investigator last Thursday and she said she was confused why I don’t already have 50/50 custody.  She urged me to ask my ex to reconsider and even tried calling my ex to talk.  Of course my ex who NEVER picks up her phone didn’t answer.  I think it’s possible that there is some huge conflict brewing inside my ex as the truth of what was happening is slowly coming to light.  The investigator basically said that there was no reason good reason for a restraining order in the first place and I think that my ex is now having trouble justifying, even to herself what she did.  It is possible that she is splitting within herself as I have seen her do this before.  I’ve even watched her as she sat by herself and could see the wheels turning.  You could even read it on the messages that she sent me, going from nice, agreeable and accommodating to harsh and dismissive within the span of minutes. 

unfortunately, she is really susceptible to outside influences, as many with BPD, who lack a sense of self, typically are.  And her mom, who also has BPD and her cut throat lawyer are steering her in a direction that keeps painting me black.  Her mom is doing it because she has an even more sever case of BPD and her lawyer just wants to keep racking up more billable hours and the longer this thing goes the more $ she’ll make. 

As time goes on I think that she is starting to lose credibility, not only with the people around her, but also within herself