Was she just immature & jealous? Considering trying again.

[magic78]

I’m really struggling here. I have no idea if I am letting my heart run the show & ignoring my logic mind? Could this be the tail end of a trauma bond? I don’t know.

I have posted here various times in the detaching section. I will try to sum thing up without writing an essay. I started talking to my ex 8 years ago I think & she was younger than me at 20 & thus quite immature. I was in my 30’s & we got on very well although she had a very unpredictable jealous nature even before we started dating. She would often block me on Facebook for minor things & verbally abuse me. However, she appeared to really care & I put these tantrums down to immaturity. We started dating June 2016 & everything was ok until she started breaking up with me for what I would class as petty things. I counted 30 break ups in over 2 years. At first there was verbal abuse & some really nasty name calling & insults. She would call me fat ugly & other things. Looking back, I think these were all done on impulse & because she felt hurt. I was told that she had really low self esteem by a family member which I couldn’t understand why but it made perfect sense. However, when we were together in person things were great. She was a really loving caring person who would take time to listen to me & I valued her opinion. Throughout our relationship she would constantly need my attention & would cause arguments if I didn’t immediately answer texts. She would constantly accuse me of talking to other women when I wasn’t. She would check my phone & then complain when she found no evidence. There were times that I had a gut feeling she was the one talking to guys & she did actually tell me once that she was & showed me the conversation. She would tell me that she couldn’t lie it was just something she was unable to do but then I would catch her lying. I posted on various relationship forums throughout our relationship & a lot of people started suggesting that I looked into BPD due to her behaviour & constant breakups. I must admit that things did start ringing alarm bells. She had a really bad upbringing & her parents seemed like they were not the best. Her mother was constantly in & out of relationships & was very foul mouthed with a very suspicious mind although I think she often cheated in some kind of way on her partners. Her siblings were also very abusive & erratic.

We broke up for the last time in October 2018 when she said she didn’t love me anymore. I had already told her that if she broke u with me again then it was last time. She called this manipulative. She broke up with me then tried charming me back around 5 times. One time she told me that a family member had been diagnosed with cancer but I still didn’t reply to her email. This has recently been found to have been a lie as I suspected. I went no contact, but I was checking on her Facebook & she was flirting with a lot of guys. She always had around 5 of the same guys that she would use to triangulate against each other while getting her validation. Around 4 months ago she started dating this guy who I could tell was really weak & would be perfect for her to manipulate or at least someone who wasn’t going to leave her if she had her tantrums as usual.

I reconnected with her probably about a month ago while she was still dating. We were talking & I could tell she was still interested in me & at one point she started talking sexual. I reminded her that she had a boyfriend. She said he knew we were talking which then turned out that he didn’t. So, this confirmed to me that she was ok with talking to men behind her boyfriends back & was she doing this to me when we were dating? We spoke last week & she told me she had broken up with her boyfriend because she found out he had been speaking to another woman & she could no longer trust him. She did send me a screenshot, so I know this is true. However, I did think this was a little contradictory given she was talking to me behind his back.

The reason I have posted again on here because I am having doubts to whether she did have a personality disorder or was just very immature. We have spoken maybe twice a week via email for a few hours at a time & she does really seem like she can see everything that was wrong with our relationship. She has apologised profusely for breaking up with me & acknowledges that it must have hurt me a lot. She said she was immature & an idiot for doing it. She doesn’t bombard me with emails if I don’t reply. She keeps saying that she never thought that I would go through with the breakup & that’s why she kept doing it & it was when she was upset & reacted wrongly. She’s apologised for all the nasty things that she said. She keeps saying that she didn’t know what she had till it was gone & she massively regrets it & still loves me a lot but isn’t in love with me. She’s not blamed me for anything. She said her ex wasn’t what she wanted & she would often think about me. When I contacted her, I thought she was charming me back but actually I think it was my fault. I contacted her & this upset her, but she replied because she thought there was something wrong with me & I do believe this. I just get the feeling that she is been genuine. Also, she did acknowledge that talking to me behind her ex’s back was wrong & she was just as bad as him, but she thought something was the matter with me.

What is clear is that the she is / was very jealous & the constant breakups were not healthy. However, was this just immaturity & were some of the issues we faced just normal traits that can be seen in the general population? I think what didn’t help was the fact that I was very co-dependent when we first met & I started to sort this out & I think this came across as not been as caring & distant. In fact, the final break up when she said she had fallen out of love with me coincided with me telling her that I have realised that I have co-dependency issues. She actually googled it & came back asking me if I did really care about her or was that I was co-dependent. Was this final break up an act of protecting herself?
I think this made her feel insecure at times & she did say that she thought I didn’t love her sometimes. I don’t think was the best at communicating sometimes too. We only saw each other once per week & I didn’t make the effort to phone her so all we did was text which didn’t help.

I do truly miss her & I haven’t felt the same bond with anyone. Even now we can talk like before & the conversations flows for hours without effort.

I just don’t know anymore & I am really wondering whether we should give it another go or at least talk a little more. I don’t want to throw this all away if it is something that can be worked on & not a personality disorder. She never self-harmed or mentioned suicide & she liked her own space a lot so sometimes it could be a couple of weeks before we would see each other & this worked as we both have children. Just some things don’t seem like traits of BPD.

Any advice would be appreciated.

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[Radcliff]

30 breakups in two years is a lot.  Whether she officially has BPD or not isn't the most important question.  You've got a tough relationship history with her, and many of her behaviors were unhealthy.  Some research has shown that BPD can resolve itself in some people as they get older.  Each person with BPD traits has them to a different degree of severity.  Bottom line -- proceed with extreme caution.  Learn about the coping tools taught on Bettering, in particular about setting boundaries.

If you were to start seeing her romantically, how might you do things differently in order to allow for the relationship to grow while still watching out for yourself?

RC

[magic78]

30 breakups in two years is a lot.  Whether she officially has BPD or not isn't the most important question.  You've got a tough relationship history with her, and many of her behaviors were unhealthy.  Some research has shown that BPD can resolve itself in some people as they get older.  Each person with BPD traits has them to a different degree of severity.  Bottom line -- proceed with extreme caution.  Learn about the coping tools taught on Bettering, in particular about setting boundaries.

If you were to start seeing her romantically, how might you do things differently in order to allow for the relationship to grow while still watching out for yourself?

RC

Yeah I think that I cannot rule out the possibility of her having BPD but as you say it can she may have just had traits to a different severity. What is certain is that she had a lot of unhealthy behaviours.

To answer your question. If I was to start seeing her romantically again my number one thing to do would be to set clear boundaries that I wouldn't allow to be crossed. With this break up & the time I have spent by myself I know I can manage much more than I thought that I could. I don't mind been by myself & I have more self worth than I had before so my boundaries would be much stronger. Also, I think I need to look into things that I may have been doing wrong. I think sometimes I could be cold & selfish which will have exacerbated her insecurities & jealousy. I think I tried to make her see sense sometimes instead of looking at things from her point of view. I do think that I have a lot of things to work on. I thought I was a perfect partner but looking back I don't think I was. I had a sense of grandiosity sometimes & always thought that I was right. It was like I had something to prove all the time. So, I do believe that I do need to work on myself more & acknowledge my part in the dysfunction. If you have any good articles to read I would appreciate it. I will start with the link that you sent.

But, the most important part would be the boundaries. I hardly set them & if I did & she crossed them I would allow it. She even said she lost respect for me as I kept letting her get away with the breakups. This last break up as really shook her up I think.

[Gemsforeyes]

Hi there-

I’m a bit confused...in your first post of this thread, you stated that she said although she loves you, she is not in love with you.  How do you feel about that?

It appears that you’re attempting to convince yourself that she does NOT have BPD.  Regardless of whether she’d meet the criteria for a full blown diagnosis, from your description of her behaviors (all quite recent and continuing), it sounds like she’s got BPD traits.  Not ALL pwBPD traits self-harm or express suicide ideation. 

What is it about her that you think has changed in the 11 months since your break-up that would present more hope for a renewed relationship?

I’m playing devils advocate here, because you state that her lying continued through her efforts to charm you back.  She keeps a supply of 5 guys in her orbit for “validation” and she still flirts with other men when she has a BF.

You further state that she’s “not blaming” you now.  My uBPDbf and I have separated numerous times over the last 6 years.  Each time he was trying to come back, he would fully take responsibility for his actions.  Why would he NOT when he’s trying to get back in my good graces?  If he were to twist his actions and blame me while we’re apart, we would NOT reunite.  I’d only get all the blame while we were together.  Things have changed a LOT now.

It seems that you’re recognizing that you’ve personally got some things to work on...which is great.  That realization and taking the actual steps to do that, with the help of a T will serve you well - for your lifetime.  I took time away from my relationship to work on some serious issues.  This has made an incredible improvement in the relationship with my uBPDbf.  Incredible.  Have you considered really doing your OWN work before reuniting?  You can explain to her that this is something you want to do, to better yourself.  I told my BF that.  But our difference was that during our times apart, neither of us ever went out with anyone else.

At any rate, some things for you to consider?  Remember, nothing changes until something changes...

Please keep posting.

Warmly,
Gemsforeyes

[magic78]

Hi there-

I’m a bit confused...in your first post of this thread, you stated that she said although she loves you, she is not in love with you.  How do you feel about that?

I am not too sure to be honest. I know what she is like & she tends to go around the houses instead of been upfront. For instance she has never suggested that we should try again but I am certain this is what she is aiming for.

It appears that you’re attempting to convince yourself that she does NOT have BPD.  Regardless of whether she’d meet the criteria for a full blown diagnosis, from your description of her behaviors (all quite recent and continuing), it sounds like she’s got BPD traits.  Not ALL pwBPD traits self-harm or express suicide ideation.

 

Yes, I do agree that I am trying to convince myself that she doesn't as this would give me hope that she has changed. But, I agree that she does show some traits or at least from my limited knowledge.

What is it about her that you think has changed in the 11 months since your break-up that would present more hope for a renewed relationship?

 

The main issue was the break ups. I did allow this to happen until the 29th time. I didn't set any boundaries. She was able to control herself I witnessed this with other things. For example at the start of the relationship verbal abuse was often when we had a breakup or sometimes just a disagreement. I did set boundaries regarding this. I did eventually say "I will not tolerate verbal abuse". She did stop doing this. Similarly with the constant need for attention. She did acknowledge that the main cause of this was her not keeping herself busy & letting her mind ruminate. 

I’m playing devils advocate here, because you state that her lying continued through her efforts to charm you back.  She keeps a supply of 5 guys in her orbit for “validation” and she still flirts with other men when she has a BF.

 

Yes & lying is one thing that I cant tolerate. However, I can see why she lied. She wanted to hear what I had to say & I think she wanted to judge whether I still had feelings for her. I told her that I wasn't comfortable speaking to her while she had a bf so she lied. Whether this is acceptable I don't know. She did flirt with other guys but never when we were dating. It was always when she was trying to get someone interested but I suppose this is normal to a certain extent.

You further state that she’s “not blaming” you now.  My uBPDbf and I have separated numerous times over the last 6 years.  Each time he was trying to come back, he would fully take responsibility for his actions.  Why would he NOT when he’s trying to get back in my good graces?  If he were to twist his actions and blame me while we’re apart, we would NOT reunite.  I’d only get all the blame while we were together.  Things have changed a LOT now.

Yes I do see that it is not in her interest to blame me. I cannot really tell if it is just part of the plan or if she is genuine. It is the way she explains it. It's as if she has had a light bulb moment where she finally realised that she had pushed me away. Its the fact that she is able to see her part in it & not just say what she thinks was her part in it if that makes sense?

It seems that you’re recognizing that you’ve personally got some things to work on...which is great.  That realization and taking the actual steps to do that, with the help of a T will serve you well - for your lifetime.  I took time away from my relationship to work on some serious issues.  This has made an incredible improvement in the relationship with my uBPDbf.  Incredible.  Have you considered really doing your OWN work before reuniting?  You can explain to her that this is something you want to do, to better yourself.  I told my BF that.  But our difference was that during our times apart, neither of us ever went out with anyone else.

I honestly thought that I was never in the wrong. From the break up & a lot of introspection I can see that I wasn't in fact perfect. I had a lot of ego & selfishness that she did put up with.

At any rate, some things for you to consider?  Remember, nothing changes until something changes...

Yes! I believe I have changed & that's what I am hoping from her. Even if she has BPD the main issues were the breaking up. The rest of the relationship was pretty good. The verbal abuse stopped. I still thought she was speaking to other men but was this because she feared I was going to leave & that could have been due to me not fulfilling my part in the relationship. I do not think that she ever physically cheated. She found it hard to be intimate with anyone so I don't think that she was capable of cheating. I just don't know. I do know that I am stronger now & if it didn't work out again I wouldn't keep going like I did previously & I think she knows this.

At the moment we are talking via email every few days & have not gone any further. I don't even know what she wants to be honest.

Please keep posting.

Warmly,
Gemsforeyes

Thank you!

[Gemsforeyes]

Hey Magic-

I don’t think any lie is acceptable, and I’ve got pretty good reasons for feeling that way.
I was married to a lying liar for 19 years.  He was NPD, with BPD traits thrown in for good measure.  My exH’s lies were harmful and damaging.  He was a bad man.

My uBPDbf’s lies are are like those of a 7 y/o child.  And I’ve caught every one of them... truly as if he MEANT for me to “catch” him and “scold” him.  Ridiculous.  I do NOT want to be his mother... who is incredibly controlling and manipulative.  You’ve got to look at where they come from...

After all we’ve been through and work on myself (I’m also codependent and had a LOT of anger at myself); I am no longer afraid... of anything.  I believe that was our major key to improvement.  I stopped being afraid, I enforce boundaries and I use the communication tools.

I’m not afraid to have discussions that “normal”, healthy couples have.  It had to be me.  So it would have to be you.

No more lying... that’s a boundary that cannot be crossed.  No more threats to leave each time there’s a disagreement of any sort.  Important topics are discussed face to face... not by text or email.  There’s too much room for misinterpretation.

Try REAL honesty and see what she says.  Ask her why she felt the need to break up All those times.  You can say you’re just trying to understand in your effort to work on how YOU function within a relationship.  And that’s actually true.

Regarding her “Tantrums”... what sets her off?  How often does she have her rages?  How did you react to the rages?  How long did the behavior last?  Did she become physical when dysregulated?  Have you ever discussed her “tantrums” or her rage with her?  If not, why not?

I really believe if you want to understand what makes her tick, you’ve got to ask... are you only communicating by email now, or are you speaking by telephone?

Does she work and is she completely self-supporting?  This is a big one to me.  I seem to see way too many instances of pwBPD relying way too heavily on their partners for financial support very early on in relationships.  My exH drained me.

Regarding her constant need for attention and your figuring out that it had to do with her not keeping herself busy - what was that about if she has kids and is working?  How was that issue solved?

Finally, has she ever admitted that any of her behavior is unhealthy and that perhaps therapy may be in Order?

Okay, sorry for the third degree.  Just some food for thought

Warmly,
Gemsforeyes .

[magic78]

Firstly this is all good stuff, thanks!

Hey Magic-

I don’t think any lie is acceptable, and I’ve got pretty good reasons for feeling that way.
I was married to a lying liar for 19 years.  He was NPD, with BPD traits thrown in for good measure.  My exH’s lies were harmful and damaging.  He was a bad man.

My uBPDbf’s lies are are like those of a 7 y/o child.  And I’ve caught every one of them... truly as if he MEANT for me to “catch” him and “scold” him.  Ridiculous.  I do NOT want to be his mother... who is incredibly controlling and manipulative.  You’ve got to look at where they come from...

I also do not think any lie is acceptable. I think if you are capable of lying in any shape or form then it says a lot about your character & the level of lying could be anything from minor to major. This issue is that she is capable. She often said that she was incapable of lying. This was her get out clause when she said something nasty about someone.

After all we’ve been through and work on myself (I’m also codependent and had a LOT of anger at myself); I am no longer afraid... of anything.  I believe that was our major key to improvement.  I stopped being afraid, I enforce boundaries and I use the communication tools.

I’m not afraid to have discussions that “normal”, healthy couples have.  It had to be me.  So it would have to be you.

No more lying... that’s a boundary that cannot be crossed.  No more threats to leave each time there’s a disagreement of any sort.  Important topics are discussed face to face... not by text or email.  There’s too much room for misinterpretation...

Previously I was scared! I was scared that she wouldn't like my answers or questions. I went around the houses to avoid the uncomfortable feelings. None of this helped. I wasn't definite in my approach so there were too much room for her to manoeuvre. For instance I would be afraid to say "no more lying". The reaction from her made me feel uncomfortable like a really nasty internal feeling. I hate confrontation. I wanted to please all the time even though inside she was doing things that I didn't want to accept so this just caused resentment & conflict. So I would let her get away with things then resent her which would come across in side issues. So then he would react to this. I would just do anything to avoid conflict as conflict normally resulted in a breakup which then resulted in me experiencing major discomfort & then self pity, wallowing & depression. I was uncomfortable with my feelings. I didn't understand how to navigate & process them & move on if I wasn't happy with the outcome. I felt locked into the relationship. This break which will almost be a year next Month has given me strength & knowledge.   

Try REAL honesty and see what she says.  Ask her why she felt the need to break up All those times.  You can say you’re just trying to understand in your effort to work on how YOU function within a relationship.  And that’s actually true.

I like this! This is something I have never done as my ego said "she shouldn't do it so why should I ask, It's up to her to tell me because she is the one in the wrong"

Regarding her “Tantrums”... what sets her off?  How often does she have her rages?  How did you react to the rages?  How long did the behavior last?  Did she become physical when dysregulated?  Have you ever discussed her “tantrums” or her rage with her?  If not, why not?.

Her tantrums often coincided with her menstrual cycle. However, this wasn't always the case. So she basically had a major tantrum at least once per month. It was normally when I reacted in a way she didn't like or something didn't go to plan. Maybe I misunderstood her or she couldn't get a babysitter or she thought I was chatting to another woman. She never became physical she is really soft & never shouted. As I say most of it was over text which is a problem within itself. The only time I discussed it was to tell her to stop.

I really believe if you want to understand what makes her tick, you’ve got to ask... are you only communicating by email now, or are you speaking by telephone?

All by email. She gave me her number but I have avoided texting as I believe this would just encourage her. At least by email I can limit the contact until I am satisfied she isn't going to bombard me with texts just like before. I would move things to phone calls eventually if I felt comfortable.

Does she work and is she completely self-supporting?  This is a big one to me.  I seem to see way too many instances of pwBPD relying way too heavily on their partners for financial support very early on in relationships.  My exH drained me.

Regarding her constant need for attention and your figuring out that it had to do with her not keeping herself busy - what was that about if she has kids and is working?  How was that issue solved?

Nope, she doesn't work which was another issue. She did go to college & obtained some good qualifications. However, she suffered a loss in the family at the end of one of her courses & pulled out. She also has a young child so finds it difficult to find work around looking after her child & I think childcare was an issue. She was always actively seeking employment & she did have some major life goals. She just didn't seem to find a position. So when her child was at school she was at home & that's where she would constantly text me.

She was getting financial help so she never ever asked me to help her with her finances. I did want a partner who was working but I did believe that eventually she would find something & because she didn't rely on me financially I didn't make much of an issue with this.

Finally, has she ever admitted that any of her behavior is unhealthy and that perhaps therapy may be in Order?

She has never mentioned therapy. But, she has said that the breakups were pathetic & wrong & that she was immature & an idiot. Her mother & sister are very similar but MUCH worse & she recognises their behaviour as unhealthy. We would have very long interesting conversations regarding their unhealthy behaviour. She seemed to be very switched on when it was about other people.

Okay, sorry for the third degree.  Just some food for thought

Warmly,
Gemsforeyes .?

This is all very very helpful! Thank you!




[/quote]

[GoodMan]

Ok.

I’ve said this to a few other people. So I’m just putting this out there.

Are you strong enough, confident enough and self aware enough to do this again.

If she is a pwBPD it doesn’t go away. It allergies not a cold. It’s forever without constant, diligent, invested therapy and possibly medication. Even with all those things it’s not a cure it’s a preventative lifestyle.

Everything will look fine and amazing and then bam. Back to zero.

It is a lifetime long disease that makes her brain justify action based on emotional responses not logic. It colors her entire life.

Actions you may not be prepared for. You need to be strong and self aware and healthy person to be able to constantly hold your boundaries and communicate with her in away that has been found to work with people with this disorder. Independence is a absolute must.

If you are whole and strong and ready and aware and deeply I love with this person as a whole. The whole her. The disease and all. Then you may be prepared enough to proceed.

Your personal support system needs to be there when you’re down and out from the barrage of emotional fluctuations and responses. You’ll need to be prepared for self care.

I recommend you do some heavy research. Read books read this site read other sites.

Good luck.

[Gemsforeyes]

Just so you know, Magic-

When I left my marriage, I was a changed person.  That marriage ended the night he threw me across the room.  Before then, I was bubbly and upbeat most of the time, despite the fact that I was emotionally abused for nearly all of those 19 years.  I didn’t know that; and I did not rely on that man for a living or a life.  He was violent only once... that was enough for me.

When I met my uBPDbf 2.5 years later (2013), I thought my dreams came true.  Of course I did... right?  Wrong.  When those RAGES surfaced, I found myself stunned and cowering... without a voice.  I was so confused, my anxiety rose to a fever pitch and my depression grew more intense.  I just didn’t know any of this.   I too was scared to death to open my mouth.  Sometimes I would pray for him to leave, even when he wasn’t raging.  I just felt so silenced.  It’s hard to write this... Except when he would threaten to leave, I would say...”please go”.  Then he would “charm” his way back to me.

Things changed in 2/2018 when my best friend died suddenly and he wouldn’t let me grieve.  Instead he RAGED and it felt like he was desecrating her memory.  I sent him away.  I hit my rock bottom and 2018 was rough.  I let him back briefly, he RAGED again in December.  This time, I LOST it.  And for the first time in my life (I’m 61), I screamed at HIM.  When he said I had “not changed at all”; I said “oh yes I have!  I am NOT AFRAID OF YOU, YOU NO LONGER MAKE ME COWER!”  I also said a few other choice words about people like him with BPD...  I scared him.  He was trembling and red-faced.  He had NEVER seen me angry.

When he tried to apologize, I refused.  I told him I needed to work on some anger issues.  And that was true.  I was so angry at myself.  For allowing my exH to do what he did and for allowing the verbal abuse from my uBPDbf. 

I love my BF deeply.  We have never “blocked” one another on phones or email.  We have never ghosted or given silent treatment.  When I was doing my “anger” work, I did communicate with him.  When I was done, I welcomed him back.  We have not had even a tiff in 8 months (5 months in person).  But you know... he’s still who he is; and so am I.  But I think he’s a little scared of me now.  That’s not altogether bad.

It’s still hard to trust that the relationship won’t revert to what it was...

Sorry to hijack your thread, Magic.

So tell me, what things do you need to  see in order to consider reopening this relationship?

*Would you want her to complete school?
*Her with a job?
*Where did her financial help come from?
*Type of relationship she has with the father of her child?
*Explanations of breakups rather than go-to words like “immature, idiot, pathetic, wrong”?
*Details about what she finds disturbing about her mother’s and sister’s “unhealthy” behavior and how she thinks that could change? How does that behavior impact other people?

Just more food for thought?

Gems

[Gemsforeyes]

And GoodMan is correct...Eyes wide open.

[magic78]

Ok.

I’ve said this to a few other people. So I’m just putting this out there.

Are you strong enough, confident enough and self aware enough to do this again.

If she is a pwBPD it doesn’t go away. It allergies not a cold. It’s forever without constant, diligent, invested therapy and possibly medication. Even with all those things it’s not a cure it’s a preventative lifestyle.

Everything will look fine and amazing and then bam. Back to zero.

It is a lifetime long disease that makes her brain justify action based on emotional responses not logic. It colors her entire life.

Actions you may not be prepared for. You need to be strong and self aware and healthy person to be able to constantly hold your boundaries and communicate with her in away that has been found to work with people with this disorder. Independence is a absolute must.

If you are whole and strong and ready and aware and deeply I love with this person as a whole. The whole her. The disease and all. Then you may be prepared enough to proceed.

Your personal support system needs to be there when you’re down and out from the barrage of emotional fluctuations and responses. You’ll need to be prepared for self care.

I recommend you do some heavy research. Read books read this site read other sites.

Good luck.

Until this recent communication with her I didn't want anything more to do with her. However, I have been diligently listening to her & cross referencing this against things that I have read in books such as Psychopath Free & loads of YouTube videos & I truly am not certain that she is a pwBPD. I think she maybe but not on the high end if that is possible? Just the fact that she isn't constantly trying to contact me or getting butt hurt when I don't reply for days is a massive difference to how she used to be. I know that they can change for their own benefit but I'm sure she couldn't hold back this long without showing some signs of her old behaviour. This is why I am unsure about the full thing. Is it an illusion or has she changed? She appears to acknowledge the problems that we had.

I am a stronger person & if things did progress I am certain that my boundaries would be solid & she would only get one chance.

I now have a network of loyal fantastic supportive friends that I didn't have before.

The issue I am having at the moment which I am concerned about is a certain feeling that I am experiencing & I am unsure whether this is a gut feeling or maybe my intuition telling me to be careful. The feeling I can only describe it as weary of getting attached. It's like I am currently dipping my toe in the water but I don't want to put my full foot in in case I like it but then get bitten. Does this make sense?

I am keeping communication open. I have not suggested any kind of relationship. I said that I enjoy taking with her again & that I do still care about her but that is as far as I have took it at the moment. I am just assessing what she says & looking for any signs of her old behaviour.

[magic78]

Just so you know, Magic-

When I left my marriage, I was a changed person.  That marriage ended the night he threw me across the room.  Before then, I was bubbly and upbeat most of the time, despite the fact that I was emotionally abused for nearly all of those 19 years.  I didn’t know that; and I did not rely on that man for a living or a life.  He was violent only once... that was enough for me.

When I met my uBPDbf 2.5 years later (2013), I thought my dreams came true.  Of course I did... right?  Wrong.  When those RAGES surfaced, I found myself stunned and cowering... without a voice.  I was so confused, my anxiety rose to a fever pitch and my depression grew more intense.  I just didn’t know any of this.   I too was scared to death to open my mouth.  Sometimes I would pray for him to leave, even when he wasn’t raging.  I just felt so silenced.  It’s hard to write this... Except when he would threaten to leave, I would say...”please go”.  Then he would “charm” his way back to me.

Things changed in 2/2018 when my best friend died suddenly and he wouldn’t let me grieve.  Instead he RAGED and it felt like he was desecrating her memory.  I sent him away.  I hit my rock bottom and 2018 was rough.  I let him back briefly, he RAGED again in December.  This time, I LOST it.  And for the first time in my life (I’m 61), I screamed at HIM.  When he said I had “not changed at all”; I said “oh yes I have!  I am NOT AFRAID OF YOU, YOU NO LONGER MAKE ME COWER!”  I also said a few other choice words about people like him with BPD...  I scared him.  He was trembling and red-faced.  He had NEVER seen me angry.

When he tried to apologize, I refused.  I told him I needed to work on some anger issues.  And that was true.  I was so angry at myself.  For allowing my exH to do what he did and for allowing the verbal abuse from my uBPDbf. 

I love my BF deeply.  We have never “blocked” one another on phones or email.  We have never ghosted or given silent treatment.  When I was doing my “anger” work, I did communicate with him.  When I was done, I welcomed him back.  We have not had even a tiff in 8 months (5 months in person).  But you know... he’s still who he is; and so am I.  But I think he’s a little scared of me now.  That’s not altogether bad.

It’s still hard to trust that the relationship won’t revert to what it was...

Sorry to hijack your thread, Magic.

Thank you for sharing this & it sounds like you have come a long way & your current relationship is a testament of this!

So tell me, what things do you need to  see in order to consider reopening this relationship?

*Would you want her to complete school?
*Her with a job?
*Where did her financial help come from?
*Type of relationship she has with the father of her child?
*Explanations of breakups rather than go-to words like “immature, idiot, pathetic, wrong”?
*Details about what she finds disturbing about her mother’s and sister’s “unhealthy” behavior and how she thinks that could change? How does that behavior impact other people?

Just more food for thought?

Gems

For me to reconsider reopening this relationship she would have to appreciate & listen to what I would be willing to accept such as no verbal abuse, lying, breakups which could be avoided. I would of cause listen to what is important to her as I say I wasn't perfect. I would only give this one go & that would be it.

I would like her to obtain work this would allow us to do more things together & make things stable plus keep her busy. Her financial help came from the government support. To be honest we have not mentioned anything about working. Maybe she is working but I am sure she would have told me. Maybe I should be asking in a polite way? I think the relationship with the Father of the child was ok. He paid child maintenance & he regularly had the child stay over. However, I think he still had feelings for my ex & could be slightly pushy & flirty with her. She appeared to deal with this & would tell him firmly she wasn't interested so I tended to keep out of it. Yes I would like her to explain why she would break up with me. What she was feeling & why did she resort to breaking up. This would help me a lot but I never asked this. When we talk about her mother & sisters unhealthy behaviour she is really switched on about it. She is able to define what part of the behaviour is unhealthy & where it may have come from. She would often tell them both that they shouldn't be acting like that. This is why it was so confusing. Her mother was highly insecure & would accuse her partner of cheating constantly. My ex would tell her mother that this is wrong & she needs to look at the facts & stop jumping to conclusions. Then my ex would accuse me. I suppose this is because she couldn't help it. Her sister could be really nasty with her bf & really verbally abuse them. My ex would tell her that she shouldn't behave like this & she doesn't deserve a bf is she treats them like that. My ex was always classed as the black sheep of the family for some reason. I think this was because she would tell them when they were acting out of line which they didn't like.

[Radcliff]

It sounds like you both may have grown a lot.  Your instinct to be cautious is a good one.  A healthy measure of caution is a good thing in any growing relationship.  It's good to understand what your standards are, what you need in order to continue in the relationship, and what additional things you'd want to see in order to feel comfortable going in deeper over time.  Keep in mind though, that some or all of the things you need to see might stay in your head and not be openly voiced to her.  If you say them to her, it may be heard as a demand, as something threatening "I will leave if you don't..."  Voice your needs, but not conditions.

Again, her diagnosis is not the most important thing to focus on now.  Focus on increasing your relationship skills, learning the coping tools, and understanding your needs in a relationship.  That focus on yourself will better equip you to handle a relationship with her or anyone else, and to make relationship decisions that work for you.

RC

[magic78]

It sounds like you both may have grown a lot.  

I do believe this. I needed to know that I was ok without her which I was. This means I am not fearful of setting boundaries. I have also been doing a lot of spiritual growth & I am lot less selfish as I used to be. As for my ex. I think that the fact that I managed to go NC for so long really shook her up. It appears that she has never experienced this. Most of the times she has ended previous relationships & the ex has begged her. I think this is the first time that she's suffered the consequences of her actions. However, if she does have BPD I assume that the impulsive nature would still be there. So logically she may know that she should try to deal with things differently but will she be able to? She did show signs of been able to adjust her behaviour when I strongly told her about the verbal abuse which did stop.

Your instinct to be cautious is a good one.  A healthy measure of caution is a good thing in any growing relationship.  It's good to understand what your standards are, what you need in order to continue in the relationship, and what additional things you'd want to see in order to feel comfortable going in deeper over time.

Yeah I think it shows that I am not prepared to suffer again & that I now have certain standards that are important to me.   

Keep in mind though, that some or all of the things you need to see might stay in your head and not be openly voiced to her.  If you say them to her, it may be heard as a demand, as something threatening "I will leave if you don't..."  Voice your needs, but not conditions.

How would you discuss these things in an healthy way? For instance the breaking up thing. What would be the best way to state that it is not acceptable without making it sound like a threat?

Again, her diagnosis is not the most important thing to focus on now.  Focus on increasing your relationship skills, learning the coping tools, and understanding your needs in a relationship.  That focus on yourself will better equip you to handle a relationship with her or anyone else, and to make relationship decisions that work for you.

Yes I shall continue to do this. I am not rushing into anything with her & to be honest I am not sure what she actually wants. We haven't spoke for a few days which I am fine with.

Thank you.

[once removed]

it is good that you are posting here. its a good step in getting centered, getting perspective, and coming up with a plan. youre doing some good work and getting some good advice.

i wanted to touch on a couple of things.

The reason I have posted again on here because I am having doubts to whether she did have a personality disorder or was just very immature

lets walk this through a little bit.

the difference between a diagnosable personality disorder and just traits of a personality disorder is a measure of dysfunction and suffering in ones own life. it is not a measure of difficulty in intimate relationships or saying and doing messed up stuff. a person that is say, a 3 on the scale can even be a far more difficult person to love than someone who would be a 8, a 9, or even a 10.

BPD (either traits or diagnosable) is not an absence of self awareness or the ability to self reflect, or to say what you want to hear. most (not all) are very aware that something is wrong. most can look at themselves in past relationships and see the error of their ways. my own ex spoke in a very lucid way about what a pill she had been in past relationships. she was very aware of how difficult she was with me.

furthermore, that she likely doesnt have a diagnosable personality disorder (or trying to figure out whether or not she does) is not a reason to get back into a relationship with her.

& cross referencing this against things that I have read in books such as Psychopath Free & loads of YouTube videos

  this is junk psychology, the worst of the worst. this will only serve to confuse you.

if you want to educate yourself on BPD (traits or otherwise) i strongly recommend you try a book like this one: https://bpdfamily.com/book-reviews/loving-someone-borderline-personality-disorder

additionally, if you want to go into this with eyes wide open, and with a plan, i recommend this: https://bpdfamily.com/book-reviews/high-conflict-couple

The feeling I can only describe it as weary of getting attached.

i cannot stress enough, that the purpose of getting back into a relationship should not be to satisfy your curiosity, to see if shes changed, or to see if you can avoid hurt.

the purpose of getting back into a relationship should not be to break up with her at the first sign that old relationship baggage and conflict resurfaces. there is no point in that. i would suggest with some certainty that the old issues (on both sides) will resurface eventually, if not quickly.

the purpose of getting back into a relationship is that there is real love there worth salvaging, and that you have a very different approach and game plan than the last iteration of the relationship, that you have thought it through, and that you have a reasonable degree of certainty that you can resolve conflict in the future.

for instance, "no more lying" and "no more abuse" is not a plan, nor is it realistic. i tell my dog "no biting". hes heard it hundreds of times. ive said it gently, ive shouted it, ive said it firmly up close eye to eye. hes a very smart dog and he knows better. he still does it sometimes. im not calling your ex a dog, im illustrating a point about realistic expectations, consistency, and leadership. your strategy should not be "how will i make her jealousy go away". it should be "how will i personally cope with her jealousy, and how will we as a couple deal with it in a healthier way" and "do i have the strength? am i up for it?".

its big picture stuff. we have an entire lesson on this board about surviving confrontation and disrespect.

[magic78]

it is good that you are posting here. its a good step in getting centered, getting perspective, and coming up with a plan.
the difference between a diagnosable personality disorder and just traits of a personality disorder is a measure of dysfunction and suffering in ones own life. it is not a measure of difficulty in intimate relationships or saying and doing messed up stuff. a person that is say, a 3 on the scale can even be a far more difficult person to love than someone who would be a 8, a 9, or even a 10.

BPD (either traits or diagnosable) is not an absence of self awareness or the ability to self reflect, or to say what you want to hear. most (not all) are very aware that something is wrong. most can look at themselves in past relationships and see the error of their ways. my own ex spoke in a very lucid way about what a pill she had been in past relationships. she was very aware of how difficult she was with me.

furthermore, that she likely doesnt have a diagnosable personality disorder (or trying to figure out whether or not she does) is not a reason to get back into a relationship with her.

She is definitely aware of her behaviour. In fact within hours she would normally apologise but 99% of the she wouldn't take full responsibility & would say "well if you hadn't done this then..."

For me to consider starting the relationship again I would like to know what I am dealing with & this was the reason for my post. If I am dealing with a person who looks to have BPD opposed to a young woman who is just immature & insecure then it changes the my approach. Would you not agree? A personality disorder is very different to a person who is just immature. If it is BPD or traits of then from what I understand it is going to be very different for her to change with out therapy as her behaviour is part of her character. If it just immaturity then there more chance of her been able to adjust this behaviour or out grow it.

this is junk psychology, the worst of the worst. this will only serve to confuse you.

if you want to educate yourself on BPD (traits or otherwise) i strongly recommend you try a book like this one: https://bpdfamily.com/book-reviews/loving-someone-borderline-personality-disorder

additionally, if you want to go into this with eyes wide open, and with a plan, i recommend this: https://bpdfamily.com/book-reviews/high-conflict-couple.

Thank you for the recommendations. I have also got a copy of I hate you don't leave me & Stop Caretaking the Borderline or  Narcissist. Are these any good?

i cannot stress enough, that the purpose of getting back into a relationship should not be to satisfy your curiosity, to see if shes changed, or to see if you can avoid hurt.

the purpose of getting back into a relationship should not be to break up with her at the first sign that old relationship baggage and conflict resurfaces. there is no point in that. i would suggest with some certainty that the old issues (on both sides) will resurface eventually, if not quickly.

the purpose of getting back into a relationship is that there is real love there worth salvaging, and that you have a very different approach and game plan than the last iteration of the relationship, that you have thought it through, and that you have a reasonable degree of certainty that you can resolve conflict in the future.

for instance, "no more lying" and "no more abuse" is not a plan, nor is it realistic. i tell my dog "no biting". hes heard it hundreds of times. ive said it gently, ive shouted it, ive said it firmly up close eye to eye. hes a very smart dog and he knows better. he still does it sometimes. im not calling your ex a dog, im illustrating a point about realistic expectations, consistency, and leadership. your strategy should not be "how will i make her jealousy go away". it should be "how will i personally cope with her jealousy, and how will we as a couple deal with it in a healthier way" and "do i have the strength? am i up for it?"

I do care for this woman a lot. We have years of history. I still have feelings for her & nothing would make me happier than us been able to have a relationship that was better than before & that would be my reason for starting a relationship with her again. It would be to attack relationship issues in a better & different way than before. Especially looking at my part in things. However, just as before it's whether the effort put in is in my best interests. Yeah we may love each other a great deal but will it effect our emotional health in a negative way as much as it did before? I don't know. At some point you have to decide whether all this training of the dog not to bite is worth it when that one bite could be fatal or is it a safer option to have a goldfish instead?

[once removed]

I have also got a copy of I hate you don't leave me & Stop Caretaking the Borderline or  Narcissist. Are these any good?

definitely. i hate you dont leave me is a little bit dated, but good to have on your shelf, and clinically reliable. stop caretaking is highly recommended.

Would you not agree?

yes and no.

whether youre in a relationship with a clinically disordered person, a person with traits, or just an immature person, you need healthy boundaries, you need relationship and communication skills, you need to be able to roll with the punches, you need realistic expectations, and you need to be a strong, benevolent, consistent, gentle but firm emotional leader. the approach is pretty much the same.

what i hear you asking (correct me if im wrong) is "if she has a diagnosable disorder it means its probably hopeless and if she doesnt she might change".

but she is who she is. shes a person who was just recently going outside of her relationship sending you sexual messages. shes a person with significant jealousy issues. these behaviors are a part of her character. they may change with age...people (clinical or otherwise) mellow out, sex drive slows down, need for external validation lessens. i think it would be unrealistic for you to expect anything other than that they will play a significant role in your relationship.

i understand you want to weigh the likelihood of whether or not she will grow or mature. its reasonable to do. but by the same token, it is prudent to also consider what a relationship with her would look like if she didnt change at all.

have you read the links in the top left corner, under Diagnosis + Treatment? theyre essential reading for sorting through this stuff.

At some point you have to decide whether all this training of the dog not to bite is worth it when that one bite could be fatal or is it a safer option to have a goldfish instead?

its a prudent question, and you and i have that choice. what, for you, would be a fatal bite?

[Radcliff]

whether youre in a relationship with a clinically disordered person, a person with traits, or just an immature person, you need healthy boundaries, you need relationship and communication skills, you need to be able to roll with the punches, you need realistic expectations, and you need to be a strong, benevolent, consistent, gentle

once removed makes a very important point for all of us here.  So many of us spend so much time trying to figure out exactly what's "wrong" with our partner and what's going on in their heads.  This is totally natural; anytime there's a problem, it makes sense to want to diagnose it so we can respond effectively.  The problem is that exactly what's going on with the other person is usually unknowable, or the knowledge comes at such a cost it's more disruptive to the relationship to try to interrogate the situation.  This quest also distracts us from assessing our own behavior and opportunities to change our behavior to be more effective in relationships and relationship decisions.  Over the long haul, we're much better served by developing a good set of "all season" relationship tools.  It can be a huge and pleasant surprise to find how well such a tool set works with a wide variety of people and relationships.  This stuff really works.

RC

[magic78]

definitely. i hate you dont leave me is a little bit dated, but good to have on your shelf, and clinically reliable. stop caretaking is highly recommended.

Good stuff thanks.

whether youre in a relationship with a clinically disordered person, a person with traits, or just an immature person, you need healthy boundaries, you need relationship and communication skills, you need to be able to roll with the punches, you need realistic expectations, and you need to be a strong, benevolent, consistent, gentle but firm emotional leader. the approach is pretty much the same.

what i hear you asking (correct me if im wrong) is "if she has a diagnosable disorder it means its probably hopeless and if she doesnt she might change".

but she is who she is. shes a person who was just recently going outside of her relationship sending you sexual messages. shes a person with significant jealousy issues. these behaviors are a part of her character. they may change with age...people (clinical or otherwise) mellow out, sex drive slows down, need for external validation lessens. i think it would be unrealistic for you to expect anything other than that they will play a significant role in your relationship.

i understand you want to weigh the likelihood of whether or not she will grow or mature. its reasonable to do. but by the same token, it is prudent to also consider what a relationship with her would look like if she didnt change at all.

Yes I think I am trying to understand whether it would be hopeless for me to give it another go. I can do my bit by learning better relationship dynamics & by what she has said to me already she is fully aware of how her behaviour was wrong but is she able to control this & try to adjust her behaviour accordingly? I wouldn't expect everything to be perfect & I would expect to have a few moments of madness like before but with my new knowledge & further reading together with her acknowledgment of her immature behaviour as she put it, is there a chance things could improve? I am not an expert on BPD & I have no idea if they are able to change to a certain degree. All I have been told is that they at on impulse & only intensive therapy such as DBT can help to change this. If someone said that it could be just an immature stage then I would be more than willing to give it another go.

have you read the links in the top left corner, under Diagnosis + Treatment? theyre essential reading for sorting through this stuff.

No but I shall have a read. Thank you.

its a prudent question, and you and i have that choice. what, for you, would be a fatal bite?

A fatal bite to me would be either her cheating or a constant barrage of breakups again in quick succession as before. I suppose this latter one maybe inevitable? 

[once removed]

i am not a professional. nor am i an expert on BPD (none of us are). i would reasonably assume you are dealing with an immature person with bpd traits (they go hand in hand).

people that are eligible for a diagnosis are usually in serious crisis at the time of diagnosis. a risk to their own lives. things like suicide attempts, or eating disorders, or dangerously impulsive behavior, or some combination. there are exceptions, but thats the norm.

what im trying to stress though, is that (right or wrong) none of that speaks to how difficult the person you are dealing with is in relationships, or her likelihood or unlikelihood of change. she could be twice as difficult, or less. she could be more likely to change, or less.

If someone said that it could be just an immature stage then I would be more than willing to give it another go.

shes in her 30s, do i have that right?

A fatal bite to me would be either her cheating or a constant barrage of breakups again in quick succession as before. I suppose this latter one maybe inevitable?  

if she were in high school and she cheated a couple of times i might call it an immature stage. by the time one is in their 30s, things like jealousy and infidelity are pretty ingrained. its possible they would mellow out when shes older. its possible they wont. her recent behavior is a likely indicator.

when it comes to infidelity: if this is a fatal bite, its probably your biggest gamble. you will need a relationship that builds trust and security; thats your biggest antidote. people with bpd traits are also inherently distrustful and insecure, so its a tall order. you will want to give her time to grieve her recent relationship. if this becomes a rebound relationship, the odds go way up that this will end badly. ideally, she will be upfront with you (when shes ready) about pushing for commitment and exclusivity. you will need to realistically assess where her heart is when and if this happens - people with bpd traits tend to push for quick commitment.

you will need a system of accountability. this means different things for different couples. transparency is important. for example, some couples give each other access to phones and things like that (im not a fan of that myself, but i dont judge it). my mom always had an attitude that everything was accessible...anyone could snoop any time, but that if they did, shed quickly add a password (snooping without permission is invasive and unhealthy...if a person has access or permission to look at something, its very different). these are just examples. the two of you will need to discuss your interdependent values and your boundaries around them, come up with a system that works, and be on the same page.

people with bpd traits also need a lot of reassurance, validation, and attention. when they arent getting it consistently, they may cope by looking for it elsewhere.

regarding jealousy, i would reread this thread, its full of great tips that will go hand in hand with building an environment of trust and security, especially Skip and Unitedfornows posts: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=78324.msg846983#msg846983

probably the thing that might be the easiest to, over time, nip in the bud is breaking up as a go to. number one, make sure you arent doing it yourself. dont threaten it. dont do it unless you mean it. second, understand that this is her go to, and think of it as more of a bad habit than something to take personally...its her reaction to stress. the important thing is not to react to it. dont beg or chase or plead. dont get angry. reacting by and large rewards the action, feeds into it. assume that its something that will blow over when she returns to baseline, and let that happen.

but then, in times of calm, work on nipping it in the bud. talk about (listen) why she does it. talk about how it makes you feel. talk about the harm it does in the relationship. talk about how both of you, and your relationship is better than that (motivate). use positive reinforcement to encourage healthier behavior. you may have to do all of this multiple times, over time, but realistically, if your relationship gets to stable ground, its probably something you can eliminate.

remember that none of this is a guarantee. people with bpd traits need a rock in their lives. a strong, consistent, emotional leader, who can weather the storms, who can bear the brunt of the storms without being wounded, who doesnt judge, who validates when need be, someone with strong empathy skills, who can also gently but firmly define limits and boundaries (isnt a doormat). they tend to thrive in that environment. its a tall order for anyone, and its also no guarantee.

https://bpdfamily.com/content/what-does-it-take-be-relationship

[magic78]

i am not a professional. nor am i an expert on BPD (none of us are). i would reasonably assume you are dealing with an immature person with bpd traits (they go hand in hand).

people that are eligible for a diagnosis are usually in serious crisis at the time of diagnosis. a risk to their own lives. things like suicide attempts, or eating disorders, or dangerously impulsive behavior, or some combination. there are exceptions, but thats the norm.

what im trying to stress though, is that (right or wrong) none of that speaks to how difficult the person you are dealing with is in relationships, or her likelihood or unlikelihood of change. she could be twice as difficult, or less. she could be more likely to change, or less.

Noted thank you.

shes in her 30s, do i have that right?

She is in her late 20's

if she were in high school and she cheated a couple of times i might call it an immature stage. by the time one is in their 30s, things like jealousy and infidelity are pretty ingrained. its possible they would mellow out when shes older. its possible they wont. her recent behavior is a likely indicator.?

Not sure whether I am been naïve but I truly do not think that she has physically cheated. I am certain she is capable of & definitely has talked to other guys when she either needed validation or was looking for a back up but I honestly do not think it's gone any further than that. I am not saying that this is acceptable though. I

when it comes to infidelity: if this is a fatal bite, its probably your biggest gamble. you will need a relationship that builds trust and security; thats your biggest antidote. people with bpd traits are also inherently distrustful and insecure, so its a tall order. you will want to give her time to grieve her recent relationship. if this becomes a rebound relationship, the odds go way up that this will end badly. ideally, she will be upfront with you (when shes ready) about pushing for commitment and exclusivity. you will need to realistically assess where her heart is when and if this happens - people with bpd traits tend to push for quick commitment.

The trust thing is where I probably lacked at a personal level. I am 100% loyal & trustworthy but I just assumed because of this she would trust me. For instance if I was going into a meeting she would expect me to tell her prior to this. I took this as an attack on me so I never did it then of cause arguments followed. So I had 2 options here. Reassure her & keep her sweet or don't reassure her & resent her for wanting this. I took the latter option. I resented her because other women don't need this reassurance. This is something I am going to need to decide on. Do I want a relationship that needs constant work or a relationship that's easier. Regarding her recent relationship. She said she can never trust him again so she told him they can just be friends. This obviously means it gives her the green light to keep in contact with him. This could end in them getting back together. So, this is why I have been giving her space. We have not spoken for a week. Maybe she is back with him? I don't know but I wanted her to grieve or change her mind without my attention in the background.

you will need a system of accountability. this means different things for different couples. transparency is important. for example, some couples give each other access to phones and things like that (im not a fan of that myself, but i dont judge it). my mom always had an attitude that everything was accessible...anyone could snoop any time, but that if they did, shed quickly add a password (snooping without permission is invasive and unhealthy...if a person has access or permission to look at something, its very different). these are just examples. the two of you will need to discuss your interdependent values and your boundaries around them, come up with a system that works, and be on the same page.

She did look through my phone on a few occasions & I was ok with this when she did it. I had nothing to hide. However, once again I ended up resenting her for this as my opinion at that time was that it was an attack on me & other couples don't do this & I deserve better. There's was a lot of Ego stuff going on with me I think. Why not just let her look? I have nothing to hide & if it reassures her then what is the problem? This is something I need to think about.

people with bpd traits also need a lot of reassurance, validation, and attention. when they arent getting it consistently, they may cope by looking for it elsewhere.

Yes this was a big problem. I was expected to keep in touch with her constantly & text her before I fell asleep & soon as I woke up. Even if we had a big fight the night before she would forget this & ask where my good night text was. I do think as soon as she thought that I wasn't giving her enough attention this is when she started chatting to other guys.

regarding jealousy, i would reread this thread, its full of great tips that will go hand in hand with building an environment of trust and security, especially Skip and Unitedfornows posts: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=78324.msg846983#msg846983

I will take a look thanks.

probably the thing that might be the easiest to, over time, nip in the bud is breaking up as a go to. number one, make sure you arent doing it yourself. dont threaten it. dont do it unless you mean it. second, understand that this is her go to, and think of it as more of a bad habit than something to take personally...its her reaction to stress. the important thing is not to react to it. dont beg or chase or plead. dont get angry. reacting by and large rewards the action, feeds into it. assume that its something that will blow over when she returns to baseline, and let that happen.

but then, in times of calm, work on nipping it in the bud. talk about (listen) why she does it. talk about how it makes you feel. talk about the harm it does in the relationship. talk about how both of you, and your relationship is better than that (motivate). use positive reinforcement to encourage healthier behavior. you may have to do all of this multiple times, over time, but realistically, if your relationship gets to stable ground, its probably something you can eliminate.

This is all good stuff! You've really described a good way to look at this major issue. Thank you.

remember that none of this is a guarantee. people with bpd traits need a rock in their lives. a strong, consistent, emotional leader, who can weather the storms, who can bear the brunt of the storms without being wounded, who doesnt judge, who validates when need be, someone with strong empathy skills, who can also gently but firmly define limits and boundaries (isnt a doormat). they tend to thrive in that environment. its a tall order for anyone, and its also no guarantee.

https://bpdfamily.com/content/what-does-it-take-be-relationship

This is EXACTLY what I feel she needed! I was a soft caring guy. I was there for her 24/7 but I could be firm when needed. She loved this. She loved that I could change her mind when she was having silly impulsive ideas. She often commented on how she appreciated my sternness sometimes. Thinking back it was a little like dealing with a young child who wants everything but thrives on someone else been in control. My problem was my co-dependency. I think if I had of made my boundaries clear she would have listened to them but it was making them in the first place that I found difficult. However, the last time she broke up with me & I stuck to my boundary I think this really shook her.

[once removed]

I honestly do not think it's gone any further than that. I am not saying that this is acceptable though.

its very important to define this. its important to define your deal breakers in general. both your independent ones (your values as a person) and your interdependent ones (the values you share with another person within a relationship).

if she was talking sexual to you, theres a pretty good likelihood that that kind of thing would occur again. theres a pretty good likelihood that if theres trouble in paradise with you, she will look for external validation (whatever that entails).

I am 100% loyal & trustworthy but I just assumed because of this she would trust me.

trust is built slowly and over time, through many actions (and remember that in general people with bpd traits have lifelong trust issues).

This is something I am going to need to decide on. Do I want a relationship that needs constant work or a relationship that's easier.

i think that you will find that the highest quality relationships take a great deal of work. it takes a great deal of work to be the kind of man who can attract that kind of partner.

but i understand what you mean. its easier to think of someone with bpd traits as a special needs person in a relationship. it is very much something you sign up for.

There's was a lot of Ego stuff going on with me I think. Why not just let her look? I have nothing to hide & if it reassures her then what is the problem? This is something I need to think about.

i guess i saw it the same way you did. i really resented it because in relationships i need a fair amount of privacy. i wasnt prepared to compromise that to reassure someone elses insecurity.

im not sure thats entirely invalid. there arent necessarily right or wrong answers, its an individual thing, as well as a matter of relationship compromise. we can be too rigid, or too flexible, or possibly just not compatible.

what if you let someone look, and they pick a fight with you over something innocent? what if they arent really reassured, and it just encourages/enables more?

know that im throwing a little bit of my own bias and personal feelings at you. just trying to give you some things to think about.

I was expected to keep in touch with her constantly & text her before I fell asleep & soon as I woke up

that probably isnt sustainable long term. i think youd want to wean off of that a bit...ideally, consistency, trust, and reassurance start to go a little bit longer way over time, and she also learns to self soothe.

lets say hypothetically you fall asleep having forgotten to text her. its eventually gonna happen. if shes expecting it, its going to mean a lot more if it doesnt happen. so she freaks out. you want to calmly reassure (dont go overboard) in the moment...maybe it helps, maybe it doesnt. assuming it doesnt, you let her freak out. eventually though, she will calm down and get back to baseline. thats when you show a little extra love...do something to nurture the relationship. take her out. or share a song that made you think of her. that kinda thing, long term, will demonstrate your investment and commitment. and then ideally things like not texting her all the time will start to effect her less. she will still have trust issues and freak out. but she will be able to get through the smaller stuff without the fear that she needs to jump ship.

you notice youre able to do all of this without blaming yourself or feeling like a failure? youve come a long way.