Feeling very alone

[pursuingJoy]

Hey friends. Just need to connect with others who understand. Therapist is still refusing to talk to husband about his mom's borderline tendencies, says her role is to stay neutral and make it a safe space for both of us. I've asked her numerous times why she won't bring it up, or be a little more straightforward, and she insists on neutrality. I'm trying to trust her and the process but I'm really struggling, because I feel that her neutrality is validating his relationship with his mom.

Hubby is at uBPD mom's house all day (again) today. Even after being asked not to, he violated our privacy and boundaries by telling her very intimate things in the past so my anxiety spikes when I know he'll be with her all day. She and I have never been close, but after a blow up a few months ago (where I <gasp> set a boundary with her), he feels heavy pressure to caretake her and alleviate her fears of abandonment. After an attempt at a conversation last night, I know still am seen by both of them as the persecutor/problem. They're "waiting for me to come around." Strong messages from both of them: I just need to forgive (because I hold grudges) and I just can't understand their relationship because I'm not this close to my mom (implying that I'm not loving).

It is SO, SO hard to be married to someone who is enmeshed with his mom. This sucks.

[pursuingJoy]

Is it normal for a marriage therapist to talk to one spouse about a probably BPD diagnosis, then refuse to bring it up to the other spouse? I'm so frustrated that she refuses to bring it up with my husband. Even when he asks direct questions like, "Is it normal to want to talk to your mom every day? Do you think anything is unusual about our relationship?" she doesn't say a whole lot. Help! What am I missing? Am I just wanting her to fight my battles? If I suggested BPD he would scoff it away.

[GaGrl]

It may be possible that your therapist wants to focus on engaging you and your husband in the marriage dynamics that are causing the two of you problems, thus getting the two of you to engage directly about you as a couple -- and let those conversations, and progress around being able to talk through them, allow your husband to come to his own realizations about his mother.I

If, after multiple sessions, it might be something you address in a session, bluntly, with your husband hearing your concern.

[pursuingJoy]

GaGrl, thanks for your thoughts. I broke down yesterday and asked for a phone call with the therapist to discuss. She said exactly what you did. My thought is that he doesn't care what I think or say, so maybe he'll hear something from a counselor. The counselor said no, that defeats the purpose of counseling, he needs to learn to listen to you. The counselor also observed that I am very cautious in what and how I share anything with him. I guess I've quit being honest because I'm so tired of being demeaned and dismissed. I understand her approach on a logical level, and I'll follow her guidance, but it doesn't feel good.

It feels like he's married to his mom. They make plans independent of me, talk every day, discuss joint finances, his name is on her house, he even kisses her on the mouth. Yesterday he said she was his best friend. It feels so yucky.

[GaGrl]

Have you ever looked him in the eyes, held his hands in yours, and said that last paragraph to him?

[pursuingJoy]

Have you ever looked him in the eyes, held his hands in yours, and said that last paragraph to him?

GaGrl, sorry - between family funeral, planned vacation, homecoming, birthdays and college fall break, I haven't had a chance to check in here. Thanks for asking. I have told him all of that, but not all at one time, nor with the courage, love and kindness that is implied in your question. Still things to learn (and unlearn).

Since this last post, husband has:
1. Admitted that he struggles to accept my view of his relationship with his mom because it makes him feel dirty and ashamed.
2. Stated he wanted to invite his mom to my family reunion, became condescending when I said that was unusual, finally backing off after I pointed out that no one, on either side, has done that before.
3. Didn't talk to his mom for 5 days while we were on vacation. FIVE DAYS. You could have knocked me over with a feather. When he returned, his mom did her manipulative freak out and said she was just worried about him, and then stated that there was no hope of having a relationship with me. He kneejerked, ie went into caretaking mode for her, then turned around and vomited all of her angst on me, claiming it was his own.

I have:
1. Asked him not to make plans with his mom without checking in with us first.
2. Asked him to separate our finances from hers, stop sharing details about our finances, and stop taking loans from her.
3. Asked him to stop sharing personal information about me, or us, or my kids.
4. Agreed to invite her to an upcoming family birthday party.

The constant boundary setting and maintenance is exhausting. Forgiving him over and over, repeating requests, being asked to repeat them yet again, fight building resentment, listen to his gushing adoration of his mom...I'm worn out. 

[GaGrl]

From a practical standpoint, perhaps your requests and the agreement to invite could points of discussion in your marriage counseling. Your MC might be able to focus your husband on what is "normal"/accepted behavior with a parent and what is considered out of bounds.

Your husband seems out of touch with how most mother/son relationships work.

[Jareth89]

My thought is that he doesn't care what I think or say, so maybe he'll hear something from a counselor. The counselor said no, that defeats the purpose of counseling, he needs to learn to listen to you. The counselor also observed that I am very cautious in what and how I share anything with him. I guess I've quit being honest because I'm so tired of being demeaned and dismissed. I understand her approach on a logical level, and I'll follow her guidance, but it doesn't feel good.

It's sad that in order to be heard or taken seriously you have to invite a 3rd party/professional. I'm doing this with my parents over ubpdsil. Personally I think the elephant in the room should be addressed right away with no more time wasting - the bpd should be put on the table and discussed to get some relief. Sometimes people will only accept it or open their mind to it if the truth is delivered by a professional - it carries some weight. Otherwise you can be accused of 'reading too much into things'...'reading too much on the internet'...etc etc. Therapists do not always apply common sense. Remember, your therapist is not suffering, you are. Very often your own contribution of a suggested solution may work best, with her facilitating. Your therapist needs to firmly validate you about the bpd in front of him and put an end to the demeaning and dismissing...your patience has already been tested to the max by your hubby and his mother...your therapist needs to not add to that because seriously, why keep dancing around the truth. Why prolong your misery? Just tell her to get to the damn point then she doesn't need to bill you for god knows how many sessions  

[Jareth89]

Is it normal for a marriage therapist to talk to one spouse about a probably BPD diagnosis, then refuse to bring it up to the other spouse? I'm so frustrated that she refuses to bring it up with my husband. Even when he asks direct questions like, "Is it normal to want to talk to your mom every day? Do you think anything is unusual about our relationship?" she doesn't say a whole lot. Help! What am I missing? Am I just wanting her to fight my battles? If I suggested BPD he would scoff it away.

You are not the problem. Hubby and mother is. You are feeling frustrated because the therapist is not resolving anything for you or quickly enough and time does matter when you have already been pushed enough to seek out a therapist. Consideration for your feelings and your right to have peace. Your therapist should act as your advocate and fight your battles for you if you identified a truth that needed to be told to unlistening ears.

[Harri]

Hi pursuingJoy!  It is good to have you back here.

Let's talk a bit about MC (marriage counseling).  MC is about improving the communication and relationship between you and your husband.  Your MC is not going to take sides nor should she.   I forget if you have mentioned this before and I am sorry.  Do you go for individual therapy?   That might help with your growing, and understandable, frustration.  

GaGrl makes a good point when she says:  

Your husband seems out of touch with how most mother/son relationships work.

 Ask almost any poster on this board who has some recovery under their belt and who was enmeshed/co-dependent, raised by a disordered parent(s) and they would say they too were 'out of touch with how most mother/child relationships work'.  How would those of us raised in dysfunction know when all we had was dysfunction and enmeshment and chaos and making moms world okay and having our own safety and happiness hinge on our mothers because our survival depended on it?

I am not defending your husband.  He is not acting as a good partner.  He is not acting as a good husband.  Nor is he emotionally healthy.  Realistic expectations have to be in place here.  Then evaluate your relationship and see if it is workable.  

Your MC is for you and your husband to communicate.  It is not for her to diagnose your MIL or counsel your husband about his mother.  It sounds like your MC recognizes that your husband is very fragile and is wisely not going to get into things she is probably not qualified to handle or that he is not psychologically ready to hear.  He needs his own therapist to work with him on that.  If he chooses not to do so, that too is going to affect your realistic expectations right?

Personally I think the elephant in the room should be addressed right away with no more time wasting - the bpd should be put on the table and discussed to get some relief.

First, no decent therapist is going to 'diagnose' a person they have never even evaluated.

Now, you are recommending that this be addressed by the MC with pursuingJoy's husband in a joint therapy session?  Take his emotional stability, no matter how dysfunctional and warped it may be, away from him without building trust or a sturdy foundation for him to fall on?  With no skills for him to use to carry him through the very rough period he will go through?  This is not a take the bull by the horns conversation or situation.  It is frustrating and hurtful for pursuingJoy for sure and we can help her with that but not by fueling resentment with unrealistic expectations about MC or recommending the MC take damaging action against her husband.  I know you mean well here and want very much to understand and help your brother.  His situation is very different from PJs husbands.  Apples and oranges.  Hell, apples and water    There are deep emotional wounds and patterns in her husband here that need to be addressed first.  We have members who struggle to separate from their disordered parent for years and are still working on it, sometimes even after the parent has died and that is with years of focused individual therapy.  

Your therapist should act as your advocate and fight your battles for you if you identified a truth that needed to be told to unlistening ears.

Again, this is a joint therapist, not an individual therapist.  If an MC did what you suggested I would question their qualifications and suitability to do the job.  I do not think your husband is not listening PJ.  I think it relates to what he said here:  

1. Admitted that he struggles to accept my view of his relationship with his mom because it makes him feel dirty and ashamed.

Sit with that for a bit and then imagine the MC talking to him about his mother having a disorder and how the world he knows is disordered and have him see the MC taking 'your side' against him in therapy... and it is going to feel that she is taking your side regardless of how it is worded.  It is going to feel like an attack at his very core.  

Not many people who are as enmeshed as your husband is will be able to take this information in and be productive with it.  Never mind the potential emotional break down that may occur, it could possibly/likely cause a bigger rift between you and your husband and end up pushing him even closer to his mother if he is not ready to hear it and if it is handled poorly by the MC.

PJ, you may not be the major problem.  Heck, you may not even be 5% of the problem.  Does that really matter here or is it more an issue of finding some way to communicate with your husband and improve your relationship with him... and if that is not possible to determine what sort of action you do want to take?

Lets talk more about the boundaries you have set and what you are doing to enforce them.   Can you pick one and give details?

[Jareth89]

Harri you are right in that it is not the place for a MC to address the BPD. Since the main root of the problem in their marriage appears to be the husband's relationship with his PD mother, as stated by his wife, surely a psychologist is needed to make some progress. The husband is already asking questions.

First, no decent therapist is going to 'diagnose' a person they have never even evaluated.

Are you referring to his mother? My psych is very happy to discuss my ubpd/npd sil and enmeshed brother with only my observations as evidence - we both understand that sil will not be diagnosed. I'm very aware that the poster's (PJ) situation with her husband is different from mine with my brother, but I could relate to her concerns and echoed her sentiments for her given situation. I don't believe that engaging someone in the truth with the necessary support is taking sides, but it may be perceived that way.

[once removed]

but after a blow up a few months ago (where I <gasp> set a boundary with her), he feels heavy pressure to caretake her and alleviate her fears of abandonment

what happened?

[pursuingJoy]

what happened?

once removed, in a nutshell, husband and I agreed long ago that his mother would never move in with us. He went to his mom's house to do work, 24 hrs later I joined them. Within two mins of my arrival she announced that she and her son had decided she would build an apartment above our garage. She would let me design the outside but I had to let her design the inside. I felt like I was in the twilight zone - he should never have made plans for her moving in with us, nor plans to build on our property, without me. I wasn't rude, never raised my voice, but told her firmly that was not the plan I'd discussed with her son. She kept arguing, saying it's what they'd agreed, following me down the hall and yelling after me that I was just insecure. He never said a word until we got in the car to come home, when he yelled at me for two hours, saying they were joking, I was too sensitive, and I didn't have a heart because she was so lonely and she just wanted to live with us.  

I found out later that she had informed him that she would "poke at" me with this. He allowed it to happen and expected me to entertain their thoughts. We started marriage counseling and at his request, I created a list of toxic, unhealthy, hurtful, intrusive things (40+) she's done in the past 7 years.

Like most BPD's she manipulates to get her needs met, and she's a master at backing him down when he tries to confront her. After this incident, in a conversation with her, she asked him what she had done that was 'soo bad.' He thankfully left me out of it and offered something she had done to him (the first time she met my mom, she told my mom some very intimate details about my husband, displaying very inappropriate and toxic behavior that could have destroyed his chances of ever having a relationship with my mom). His mom said she didn't remember doing that. A few days later, he got a firm phone call from his mom's friend telling him, "STOP. Stop telling your mom these things. She can't handle it and now she's crying every day." So he did. He's too worried about her feelings.

She is a master at playing the victim, calling on the phone crying and asking him, "Am I such a bad person?" He turns around and asks me, "Is she such a bad person?" This is all prompted by nothing more than tension. I haven't spoken to her in 4 months. I don't talk to anyone but the MC about her. But she and my husband have no boundaries and talk about me constantly, something I've begged him to stop doing.

It's been 4 months and it's still a major problem. My husband thinks he has every right to discuss building plans on our property (a mortgage I pay for) without me.

Your MC might be able to focus your husband on what is "normal"/accepted behavior with a parent and what is considered out of bounds.

Your husband seems out of touch with how most mother/son relationships work.

I sincerely wish the MC was more straightforward about what normal, healthy relationships look like. I think it's because he's so out of touch that she is allowing him to sort through his thoughts at his own pace. I understand why. The slow pace drives me up a wall, but I know the priority is effectiveness. I do see tiny cracks. Meanwhile our relationship is starving for change and the cracks feel like crumbs.

 

Personally I think the elephant in the room should be addressed right away with no more time wasting - the bpd should be put on the table and discussed to get some relief.

I am desperate for some relief, so I hear you on this. The therapist's professional perspective is that for me to get temporary relief would mean pushing him too hard, too fast, possibly irreversably so. I can see what she's saying. He is soo defensive of his mother.

I am working to trust the way the T sees it because at the core of BPD are issues with relating and communication. He's learned BPD behaviors that are playing out in our marriage in a huge way. If slowing down and learning new, effective ways to communicate means that our relationship will be healthier in the long run, whether he ever learns about BPD or not, I'm (grudgingly) willing to accept that.

Healthy behaviors are freeing, right? My hope is that as we adopt new and healthy ways of relating, he'll feel good about that, and he'll more clearly see what's wrong with his relationship with his mom? Crap shoot? Don't know. I'll keep you posted.  

Your therapist should act as your advocate and fight your battles for you if you identified a truth that needed to be told to unlistening ears.

On one hand I do wish she would fight my battles. I seriously want to wield her like a weapon and make him listen. But at what cost? I'm hurting, too, so I know my decision-making capabilities might not be the best right now. That's why I need the MC.

Maybe instead it's learning to fight my own battles, only sometimes it's not even about fighting. It's about letting go, adjusting expectations, and new perspective. This experience will make me stronger. I'll learn. It just hurts like hell.

Hi pursuingJoy!  It is good to have you back here.

Do you go for individual therapy?   That might help with your growing, and understandable, frustration.  

  Harri! good to be back! We both go for individual sessions with the MC. Individually she is very validating, which helps. Per your standard description of a trained and professional MC, she also validates him, which is where it gets challenging. He said the other day, "The T hasn't ever come out and said that my relationship with my mom isn't healthy."

How would those of us raised in dysfunction know when all we had was dysfunction and enmeshment and chaos and making moms world okay and having our own safety and happiness hinge on our mothers because our survival depended on it?

I had an epiphany of him being stuck to his mom by an umbilical cord. If it had been cut at a normal age, it would have been cut more easily and healed by now. Instead it's petrified, lumped together and rock hard and must be chipped away piece by piece. I've been reading other threads on the Golden Child and he is a textbook GC. He has become a people-pleasing rescuer, behaviors that are amplified 100 times when it's his mom.

He has 44 years of training to unlearn, and that is what makes me feel most hopeless. What could I ever say to hold a candle to that?

It is going to feel like an attack at his very core.

It does. Any slight against his mom hurts him visibly. The MC observed that he is more willing to accept that he has some responsibility in his relationship with his mom, but he refuses to put any responsibility on her.

PJ, you may not be the major problem.  Heck, you may not even be 5% of the problem.  Does that really matter here or is it more an issue of finding some way to communicate with your husband and improve your relationship with him... and if that is not possible to determine what sort of action you do want to take?

I'm not concerned about who's to blame. I think all involved parties need to take responsibility for their part. I am responsible to do a better job of speaking frankly, then setting and maintaining boundaries that protect my values, and refraining from controlling him. Husband is responsible for listening to how his behavior impacts me, assessing his behavior, learning new ways of relating, and allowing his mom to take her own responsibility. Both of us are responsible to keep going to counseling. If he decides to ignore me and our relationship, I have decisions I need to make.

Lets talk more about the boundaries you have set and what you are doing to enforce them.   Can you pick one and give details?

Let me give this a shot.

Value: prioritizing our relationship by respecting shared space, time and finances

Boundary: check with the other person before making plans, spending money, or making major decisions

Last week we called his mom to invite her to his daughter's bday. Within the 3 min conversation, she mentioned winterizing. He knee-jerked (because he has to solve all of her problems) and offered to go up there one day next week. That's a two-hour drive in a very old, run-down truck that is on its last legs. Plus we're in the middle of a remodel and we need any extra time to work on our house. She has people close to her that can help her. I asked him (for the millionth time, with very little hope of my request mattering) not to make plans without checking in with us and our plans first. (maintaining a boundary?)

For the first time, he didn't get pissed off and explain why he was justified. He said he was sorry, he understood and he wouldn't do that again. He is still going to see her next week, but he's willing to talk through what day works best for us. And he will make plans with her again because he can't help it. (realistic expectations?) But maybe, just maybe, something is shifting?

Anything I could do differently?

 

[Methuen]

I am very sorry to hear about the problem of your husband's enmeshment with his mother.  It doesn't usually work to have 3 people in a marriage... I feel this would cause legitimate distress.  Your title "Feeling very alone" makes a lot of sense in this context.

Here is another perspective.  I have always known I have a difficult mother.  That she was kind of "special".  Many years ago I joked to someone that my mother was "high maintenance".  I knew that she grew up in an abusive household, and that strangely, all her siblings had the same personality traits as her.

I knew nothing.

Now I feel like I understand BPD.  I have recently read a lot.  I am working through CBT.  The learning and processing of all this has happened in the last 3 months.  It has rocked me.  Yes I have a therapist.  I also have the support of a wonderful husband.  I have no one else that I have shared my troubles with.  But my world has been shaken, as I fully comprehend the big picture, and the complexity of navigating a relationship with a mentally ill mother.  Everything I thought was normal, is no longer normal.  It's turmoil, and chaos, and...I'm at a loss for words.

And I am not a rescuer like your husband.  I support my mom as a loving daughter should, because ultimately I still love her, but I am not her rescuer.  I have never defended her behavior.  Nor are there 3 in my marriage.

If my world was rocked even though I always had awareness of my mother's shortcomings, and fully acknowledged them, I can't imagine what your husband would go through if he acknowledged his mother's illness, and started delving into it the way I have.  If I have been rocked, I think perhaps it would be worse for him if he is so enmeshed with his mother.  I have not been enmeshed with my mom like that.  I have always seen her flaws.  Maybe he's afraid to face the big unknown. 

In a way, my life was simpler when I was ignorant of BPD. 

I am putting faith in all the people who post on this site "that it gets better with time and if we work on it".  Harri comes to mind, along with others.  I have to believe that, because where I am right now is painful.

If your husband is able to accept his mother's disease, and work to disentangle himself from her, it is likely going to be quite a difficult process.  What does he want?

I am so sorry you have to go through this.  I think your situation would be harder than my situation with my BPD mother.  At least I can try to learn some tools to better deal with her BPD.  You on the other hand don't have that control, because you are the 3rd party after your H and MIL. 

PJ, I hope you are finding ways to look after yourself, and pursue finding moments of joy... you definitely deserve some TLC - self care!

[pursuingJoy]

I am very sorry to hear about the problem of your husband's enmeshment with his mother.  It doesn't usually work to have 3 people in a marriage... I feel this would cause legitimate distress.  Your title "Feeling very alone" makes a lot of sense in this context.

Thank you for this validation Methuen. I am in a lonely place. I had this idea that my husband was my best friend and I was his. He recently stated she was his best friend and that's how he's acting. I'm so weirded out.

Here is another perspective.  I have always known I have a difficult mother.  That she was kind of "special".  Many years ago I joked to someone that my mother was "high maintenance".  I knew that she grew up in an abusive household, and that strangely, all her siblings had the same personality traits as her.

I knew nothing.

Now I feel like I understand BPD.  I have recently read a lot.  I am working through CBT.  The learning and processing of all this has happened in the last 3 months.  It has rocked me.  Yes I have a therapist.  I also have the support of a wonderful husband.  I have no one else that I have shared my troubles with.  But my world has been shaken, as I fully comprehend the big picture, and the complexity of navigating a relationship with a mentally ill mother.  Everything I thought was normal, is no longer normal.  It's turmoil, and chaos, and...I'm at a loss for words.

So what changed for you? When did you start to see things differently?

From the beginning my husband warned me that his mom was a little difficult and made jokes about her not having a filter.

I can empathize with your (and others') experiences of 'discovering' a completely different family than the one you thought you had. My dad was a missionary, ordained preacher, dynamic speaker, spoke three languages, translated the Bible, started a Christian radio station and printed Christian material. We thought he was wise and all-knowing. Between 22-28, with therapy and my mom finally speaking out, I learned that he was a well-disguised narcissist who cheated on my mom for 26 years, coaxed her into covering for him, emotionally stunted and controlling, had threatened to kill her, and he was sexually abusive (we just didn't understand what was happening and we shut it out).  I thank God for the painful blessing of 'waking up' and it took me years.

In fairness, I need to give my husband the same time I had.

If I have been rocked, I think perhaps it would be worse for him if he is so enmeshed with his mother.  I have not been enmeshed with my mom like that.  I have always seen her flaws.  Maybe he's afraid to face the big unknown. 

I'm sure he is. What I know from being on this side of 'waking up,' and from being in a relationship with a man who is enmeshed with his mother, is that he will lose so much if he doesn't wake up.

I am putting faith in all the people who post on this site "that it gets better with time and if we work on it".  Harri comes to mind, along with others.  I have to believe that, because where I am right now is painful.

I 100% agree with you. Crying as I type this. I'm so sorry you're in pain. I am too. I am thankful we're not having to go through this alone.

If your husband is able to accept his mother's disease, and work to disentangle himself from her, it is likely going to be quite a difficult process.  What does he want?

Good question. I know he wants the tension between me and his mom to go away. He wants his mom, he wants me. What remains to be seen is his willingness to look at things differently and change unhealthy behavior.

I am so sorry you have to go through this.  I think your situation would be harder than my situation with my BPD mother.  At least I can try to learn some tools to better deal with her BPD.  You on the other hand don't have that control, because you are the 3rd party after your H and MIL. 

Crying again. You nailed the hardest part of this. I'm head over heels in love with this man, and in the end, I'm not confident he'll choose me. I also have no control over his choices. Yay, accepting realistic expectations. 

PJ, I hope you are finding ways to look after yourself, and pursue finding moments of joy... you definitely deserve some TLC - self care!

Thank you. Means more than you know.

pj

[ProudDad12]

Hi pursuingJoy,

I read your posts and keep looking for something constructive to say, given my experiences and hindsight of knowing what my wife went through. In fact, she doesn't have an account here but checks in and reads the posts, and read yours and said "That was me!"

Anyway, I obviously can't make any promises on the choices and realizations your husband will make. But just tonight my wife and I were reflecting on the past decade, and its always hard for me to hear what she went through. I feel safe saying I didn't have the level of enmeshment with my mom as your husband, but my wife still felt very alone, and at times didn't know if she could stick it out. Meanwhile I was convinced I was doing the right thing at time. And I also thought I was prioritizing my marriage. I know that sounds strange, but really not much seems to make sense when it comes to BPD.

I've had quite the journey of eye opening the past few years. Unfortunately it was triggered by an event, not by words. Either way I've come a long way, with a long way to go, but my wife is glad she can see me as an ally and partner now. I, in turn, am immensely grateful she stuck it out with me.

Again, I don't mean for this to imply false hope to your situation, just want to try to empathize where I can. I really hope your husband has an epiphany and sorts his priorities out. It is a very hard thing to break out of. At the same time, my wife will attest that it is very difficult to be in your situation. Good luck, and remember you have lots of support here!

[pursuingJoy]

ProudDad12 it means the world to hear from you and your wife (hi wife!  ).

People on this board are helpful in so many ways, challenging my thoughts, sharing experiences, offering suggestions, and validating. You offer hope, something that for me is in desperately short supply these days. Just knowing that it's possible gives me a little hope to keep going.

Thank you thank you thank you. 

pj

[once removed]

i think youre doing your best here, pJ, and i think youre doing as well as anyone could.

im assuming that youve read up on the karpman drama triangle. if you havent, i encourage you to: https://bpdfamily.com/content/karpman-drama-triangle

there are a lot of moving parts here.

if youve read around on this board, then you know that having a mother or father with bpd can make for an incredibly complex bond, with issues that a person can struggle with for life. the power that she wields over your husband is significant. its really not something you can compete with, and in general, you shouldnt try to compete.

by that, i dont mean you shouldnt assert yourself, or try to get on the same page. i do mean that for the time being, results are going to be limited, maybe very limited. play the long game, dont play to win, so to speak.

in essence, the more that you do, the more you push your husband to his mother. push him to make choices, and shes going to win out.

i sense that your therapist can see all of this, and shes playing the center of the triangle like a boss, determined not to take sides, but to help all involved.

no one wants to hear that their relationship with a family member, especially one who wields so much power, is unhealthy. that would push him away from the therapist. away from you. toward his mother. also, it would be a judgment she doesnt really need to make...family dynamics are complex, and what might look like unhealthy enmeshment in one family might not in another. i think that we all can agree that this dynamic is unhealthy. i dont think it would be helpful for the therapist to declare it so.

it is very much something your husband is going to have to see, and want to see. she can only gauge him, and guide him there.

in doing so, i think shes also focusing on the way you and your husband relate to each other. because ultimately, the more the two of you are on the same page, consistently and over time, the more likely your marriage will come first.

if there has been any progress, any at all, then that is very promising. its just important to have realistic expectations...of her, of yourself, of him, of the time frame when it comes to progress, and how far it can go.

i think you know all of this, i see the attitude reflected in your posts, and youre doing your best to stay centered, and in the center of the triangle. i just want to reinforce that. keep doing it.

[ProudDad12]

ProudDad12 it means the world to hear from you and your wife (hi wife!  ).

People on this board are helpful in so many ways, challenging my thoughts, sharing experiences, offering suggestions, and validating. You offer hope, something that for me is in desperately short supply these days. Just knowing that it's possible gives me a little hope to keep going.

Thank you thank you thank you. 

pj

I'm so glad to be at least a little bit of help! I don't respond as much as I should (usually because I'm checking from my phone), but we're happy to share experiences and help support where we can!

[Spindle0516]

It is so hard to married to someone enmeshed with their mom!

Our experiences are different, but there is so much I relate to here. I have reread this thread over and over again today and I have a few thoughts that I'd like to share.

I often say to my husband, "I am married to you, not you and your mom."

What is different for me is that my husband is aware of the likely BPD diagnosis and we have come to be fairly united on how we approach issues, but it hasn't always been that way and it still been so hard for both of us, but especially him. The more he learned about BPD, the more he saw how these patterns played out throughout his life, and he has had to grieve the loss of a "normal" childhood and the loss of ever having a "normal" relationship with his mom. Really, this grieving and learning process has just begun for him and I know he still has a lot to process in regard to this.

She had a really traumatic past- an abusive father, 2 abusive husbands, pregnant at 17, a daughter who struggled with addiction the sudden death of her partner/best friend- the list goes on and on. My husband has been taking care of her emotionally his whole life and physically since he was about 20. He moved away to a different city, but had to move back when her health began to decline after a year and a half. He once said that he feels like he is responsible for ensuring her happiness and when she isn't doing well, I can see the emotional toll it takes on him.

I would say that my husband was ready to hear the information about BPD and in some ways, it was still devastating. If he hadn't been ready for it, I don't know how he would have coped. Intellectually, he gets all of it, but from what I have observed, the emotional side is trying to play catch up.

My mother in law lives with us- this may be changing within the next year, but we have been through a lot over the past few years. We have had to have many conversations where I had to repeat, "I am married/in a relationship with you, not you and your mom." I used examples to help him understand why, at times, it felt like I was being asked to be in a relationship with both of them. A lot of them had to do with similar things that you described- lack of boundaries/sharing of personal information.

Do you ever feel like that is the case for you? When I phrased it like that to him, it felt like a flip was switched and he saw it in a different light. It is still hard- even if he understands, she doesn't, and we are just beginning to understand and learn about what this should look like in terms of our relationship with her.

I am not sure if your husband struggles with anything else like anxiety or depression, but mine does. I see a direct connection with his mental health and her mental health. When we are going through more difficult times with her, he is way more anxious, has more panic attacks, and feels way more despair and hopelessness. It is hard to watch. I once said to him that I worry about him specifically when he has all these difficult interactions with her. I explained that I see a change in his behavior and mood as well, and that it makes me sad to see him struggling so much. He told me that me acknowledging this made him feel less alone and that I wasn't just out to disagree/argue about everything pertaining to his mom. I didn't realize that to him, it felt like I didn't care about the effect that all of it was having on him, and that to him, it often felt like I was just doing everything to ensure we didn't have to "deal with her." Does this even make sense? I'm tired and not sure if I am even typing coherently.

Being the daughter in law is not easy. I love my husband so much and sometimes it makes me so sad watching him go through this. And then sometimes I feel so angry that she doesn't understand how she is affecting his life and emotional well being. And then I feel disgusted that so many people could be so abusive to her, especially as a child, and that noone protected her to the point that BPD may be the result.

[pursuingJoy]

Spindle0516 thanks for sharing your story. I'm sorry it's taken me so long to respond. I'm glad you and your husband have found ways to communicate and work together, but caring for an aging parent and the effects of BPD relating are still so much to carry. Much love.

Do you ever feel like that is the case for you? When I phrased it like that to him, it felt like a flip was switched and he saw it in a different light. It is still hard- even if he understands, she doesn't, and we are just beginning to understand and learn about what this should look like in terms of our relationship with her.

I'm concerned about his level of defensiveness if I make a statement like "I'm married to you, not you and your mom," but I do provide examples so that he has something practical to work from. Some he dismisses, but there are two specifically that have made some sense to him.

I am not sure if your husband struggles with anything else like anxiety or depression, but mine does. I see a direct connection with his mental health and her mental health. When we are going through more difficult times with her, he is way more anxious, has more panic attacks, and feels way more despair and hopelessness. It is hard to watch. I once said to him that I worry about him specifically when he has all these difficult interactions with her. I explained that I see a change in his behavior and mood as well, and that it makes me sad to see him struggling so much. He told me that me acknowledging this made him feel less alone and that I wasn't just out to disagree/argue about everything pertaining to his mom. I didn't realize that to him, it felt like I didn't care about the effect that all of it was having on him, and that to him, it often felt like I was just doing everything to ensure we didn't have to "deal with her." Does this even make sense? I'm tired and not sure if I am even typing coherently.

You're making a lot of sense! My husband has high blood pressure, I do worry about that. I have tried to make the observation about his stress levels after he talks to his mom and express concern, but he insists that he's fine, his emotions are his own.

Being the daughter in law is not easy. I love my husband so much and sometimes it makes me so sad watching him go through this. And then sometimes I feel so angry that she doesn't understand how she is affecting his life and emotional well being. And then I feel disgusted that so many people could be so abusive to her, especially as a child, and that noone protected her to the point that BPD may be the result.

I feel these same emotions all at the same time, too...well said!

Thanks for sharing your story, Spindle.

pj