Wife back in hospital - Part 2

[stolencrumbs]

This thread was split from a previous discussion found here: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=340114.30

I don't really see what good it does to be pushy with people at the hospital. I don't think there is anything they can or will do that will actually help. If there were some action I could demand that would be helpful, I'd do that. The psych hospital here is not good. I have never talked to anyone in the field who thinks it is. That includes Ts I've been to and psychologists, psychiatrists, and social workers here at my university. And the experience last time confirms this. She was there for about a week. She was just given medication and told to follow up with therapy. She saw the psychiatrist there for maybe a total of 30 or 45 minutes over the course of the week. Their job is to stabilize. They do that with drugs. Then they send the person on their way. That's what would happen again, and that doesn't really change anything. There is another facility in town. It is just a crisis stabilization unit. My hope was that she was going to be sent there. She was on the list to go there. She was willing to go there. But a bed opened at the other place first, and when they tried to send her there is when she talked to the nurse and the social worker and got herself out. I didn't know all of that until yesterday. Anyway, I think there is some inpatient treatment that would be helpful, and that is what she probably needs at this point. But I don't think that inpatient facility is the psych hospital here, and that's where she'll go if she's forced to.

I did talk to (well email) my T and her T. Within minutes of getting the information from me, her T called my wife and told her I had contacted her. The T asked if she should be worried. My wife said "no," that the "crisis" had passed and she was fine and would follow up with her. End of phone call. And now my wife "doesn't trust me" and so "isn't going to share how she feels with me." Doesn't like that I'm trying to "control" her T. And now isn't sure that she is going to continue seeing her T because she doesn't like that I have the ability to contact her and tell her things. This reaction was entirely predictable. I don't know the right way for a T to handle things, but calling and saying "are you okay," "yes," "cool, see you later" seems like not the right way. On the other hand, we are all trying to help someone who only wants help on her terms and in the way that she decides is best. So I don't entirely blame the providers here. She is obviously a tough patient.

Notwendy's description of her mom really does hit home. She definitely wants to and is very good at controlling the information other people get. She paints the picture she wants to paint. She is very smart and very manipulative and very good at it. We talked last night and I can absolutely hear the things she is telling people--the social worker, her T, her P, etc. She describes her own behavior in ways that kind of get at the truth, but colors it in such a way that it seems like we are on different planets. Her version of Saturday is that she was "really low" and just asked me for some support that day. And that she was just "telling me how she feels" and that it is really important for her to be able to do that. The reality is that she was sending me a chronicle of her impending death. "I'm heating up my last meal, then I'll be ready to go." "Everything is set." "I'm trying to think about all the good things in my life. I think that'll make it easier to go." "I want you to give the life insurance money to X." "Please take good care of the dogs." "Okay, it's time for me to go." Those are not feelings. That is not "expressing how you feel." That's not telling me you just need some help getting through the day. But that's her version of it and I'm sure that is the way she describes things to others.

I definitely feel helpless here. Or like the only way I can "help" is to try to force something to happen that she very much doesn't want to happen, and what I would be forcing is something that I don't think is going to be at all helpful anyway. She's going to sit in the hospital and do what she has to do to get out. Then we're right back where we started. She's not going to continue to see a T or P who doesn't go along with whatever she is telling them or doing what she wants them to do. She'll just stop going. We've been together for sixteen years. Her behavior is not mysterious. It is largely predictable. Forcing something on her is not going to be the answer. Doing that is going to get her to stop seeking help at all out of fear that she is going to be forced to do something she doesn't want to do, or to be somewhere she doesn't want to be.

I'm sure I'm not thinking straight. There's a lot going on, but that's how I feel right now. I don't see any options that have any real hope of helping. The option I can "force" is not a good one. I've told her T and that did no good. I can possibly figure out and track down her P, but if she tells my wife I did and if she at all takes my perspective (and evidence) as being closer to the truth, my wife will be out of there to never be seen again. And then we're back to forcing something, and the thing that can be forced is not helpful...and so on.

I feel like moving to a remote area of Alaska and living off the grid. Not really, but a break sure would be nice.

 

[formflier]

 

There is a direct correlation between people that complain effectively about bad service and whether or not that service changes.

That's why you "should be pushy".

Please do what you can to up your self care for the next day or two.  If all you can do is manage one or two phone calls...then do that and focus on yourself.

I can't imagine anything good coming from "backing down" from this last incident.  She "upped the ante" with the generator and plans.  If that gets you "back in line" to be the hubby she has had for the last 16 years...then the next (fill in the blank) years will be the same.  And she very well may be successful in her plans for suicide.

How can we best support you here?  What do you think you need from us?

Best,

FF

[sweetheart]

sc
 
I’m with ff, what do you want to happen that would best support your wife atm?

[stolencrumbs]

If that gets you "back in line" to be the hubby she has had for the last 16 years...then the next (fill in the blank) years will be the same.

One thing I need is some reassurance that I definitely should not just "get back in line." That is what she wants. She is really overt about it. What she wants is for me to come home and us to go back to our "old life," which is mainly a life that didn't ever exist but that she now remembers as being utopic. She needs me to be there every day, and for us to live our life together, and to have stability in the relationship, and to have a "normal" life where she can just count on me. That's what she says she wants and needs. I actually do think that that is the thing that would, at this moment, reduce the suicidality. I don't think she'd be pondering how to kill herself if I was at home every day. But I don't think being there really addresses anything. It doesn't change any underlying problems. It doesn't get her help. It just stalls things until a new crisis arises. It's me staying on the hamster wheel. I don't want to do that. But nearly every conversation we have comes back to that. She tells me this all. the. time. Why can't I just do that for her? Why can't I just come home? Why can't I give her a chance? etc. It's exhausting. And the implication--sometimes spoken and sometimes not--is that her life depends on me doing this. That is just not okay with me. That whole setup is not okay. That's a non-starter. But that feels roughly like telling her to just go ahead and die. And I don't see good alternatives. And it feels like my fault. I need some reassurance that not moving back in and pretending all is well doesn't make it my fault if she kills herself today, or tomorrow, or etc.

[stolencrumbs]

And this is probably not really relevant, and definitely not healthy, but I can't stop thinking about and trying to figure out what her plan was.

I now think the generator was a backup plan, or an insurance plan. She was always worried about her attempt not being successful. And she had told me that whatever her plan was involved some risk of severe brain damage without actually killing her. That makes me think she had some primary plan, but then planned to do it in the car with the generator so that if she passed out but didn't die, the CO2 poisoning would kill her.

I think the plastic bag and leash were for a "suicide bag"--a plastic bag filled with inert gas, usually helium. But I didn't find any helium tank at the house. Of course that doesn't mean it isn't there.

I also looked at our amazon account and the browsing and order history. She looked at a lot of clear plastic bags. Didn't order any. She did order a tent about a month ago. That is exceedingly strange. There is zero chance she's going camping. It's roughly the equivalent of Vin Diesel ordering hair products. There is some stuff online about a suicide tent, but I can't really figure that one out.

And she has also told me that her plan just requires "flipping a switch." And that it can be carried out even if she is drunk. She "attempted" to kill herself about three years ago, but got too drunk and passed out. She was in the back of the car when I got there. I couldn't figure out then what her plan was. She has told me her plan now is the same basic plan, but with improvements. Somehow this involves a switch.

Again, I can't imagine this is healthy to obsess about, but I can't really stop thinking about it.
Was going to try to just watch the baseball game tonight, but it's now been postponed. I'll figure out something to do to not think about this. I teach five classes tomorrow, so I won't time to sit around and obsess about this. That'll be nice, though she knows my schedule, and if she wanted to kill herself, that'd be a fine time to do it.

[formflier]

  I need some reassurance that not moving back in and pretending all is well doesn't make it my fault if she kills herself today, or tomorrow, or etc.

 

There is nothing positive that is going to come from "pretending".  As you have found out, there are consequences for not "getting onboard" with her version of life.

Others (like Notwendy) have told similar stories about the "consequences" of shining a light and telling the truth.

I can assure and reassure you that you are not responsible for her choices about her life.  You see that she wants others to be responsible...others to blame.  That's on her, not you.

We are here for you SC.  The road you see and understand you have to walk is hard.  We can walk  this with you. 

Is it time to ask your T to help you identify others that you can "open up to"?

Best,

FF

[babyducks]

Go Yankees!   

StolenCrumbs.   This is not your fault.   You are not to blame.   Her life does not depend on the actions you take or don't take.   Her mental health is not your job.   Sure you can help,  if she is willing.     She's not.     Sure you could probably make this just slightly worse by acting out.    I don't see you doing that and I have followed along with you for a while now.

She has a mental illness.   She has a very high level of suicidal ideation.   and she has for a long time.    It's untreated.    She has a family history of suicide.

One thing I need is some reassurance that I definitely should not just "get back in line." That is what she wants. She is really overt about it. What she wants is for me to come home and us to go back to our "old life," which is mainly a life that didn't ever exist but that she now remembers as being utopic. She needs me to be there every day, and for us to live our life together, and to have stability in the relationship, and to have a "normal" life where she can just count on me. That's what she says she wants and needs. I actually do think that that is the thing that would, at this moment, reduce the suicidality. I don't think she'd be pondering how to kill herself if I was at home every day. But I don't think being there really addresses anything. It doesn't change any underlying problems. It doesn't get her help. It just stalls things until a new crisis arises.

The sad tragic truth is there is nothing you can do so 'save' her from suicide or suicidal ideation, if she doesn't want to be saved.    and the honest truth is you can't force her to give up the ideation that is so much a part of her.   It's really up to her.    and she's not cooperating in any way.

I think you are thinking clearly about this.    moving back home and falling into line would solve today's crisis.    for a while.  I agree there would be another crisis.    A need to move.    A need for a new house.    and then you would be right back on the roller coaster.

And now my wife "doesn't trust me" and so "isn't going to share how she feels with me." Doesn't like that I'm trying to "control" her T. And now isn't sure that she is going to continue seeing her T because she doesn't like that I have the ability to contact her and tell her things. This reaction was entirely predictable.

you recognize this as projection correct?     who is trying to control the narrative?    who is trying to control this elaborate construct she has in her head?

abusive relationships are all about power and control.    she is going to control your actions with threats.     yes she is in pain.   yes she is acting out badly.  that doesn't make this any less abusive.    holding you hostage by threats to take her life is pretty high up there on the scale.   

I would suggest you don't accept the premise of the (bogus) argument that she presents.    If you move back home everything will be okay.    It won't be.    when she attempted to kill herself three years ago?    where were you living then?    how was the relationship then?  better?   worse?   stagnant?    How is this going to be ~better~ if you move back home?

I'm sorry you are going through this StolenCrumbs.   Sending you strength to care for yourself.

'ducks

[Notwendy]

On the other hand, we are all trying to help someone who only wants help on her terms and in the way that she decides is best.


Yes, that basically describes my mother, from the largest to the smallest of tasks. Even if I offer to drive her to get her car fixed, it has to be when she wants it and how she wants it. As far as any psychiatric help- she determined what she wanted the providers to know. I was not allowed to speak to them. When I spoke to my father's providers, he got angry at me. At this point, SC, you are questioning whether or not to go along with your wife's magical thinking that all will be OK if you are just there again. I called this the "dry erase" apology with my mother. We were all supposed to forget whatever happened and all was "good" again ( until the next rage or dysregulation).

I don't think my mother had as elaborate a plan as your wife. She has access to all kinds of medications but thankfully hasn't used them to that extent. Her attempts were dramatic- she wanted us to know. Some I barely recall- I was too young - but I know they happened ( confirmed by relatives).  The danger was that even if there was a manipulative aspect to them, they could still (heaven forbid) be unintentionally successful.

I think the only way we adult kids could emotionally deal with this was to believe ( and we do) that we are not in complete control of her actions. Even if we were there 24/7 watching her, it would not entirely prevent her from doing something she wanted to do--- if she wanted to do that. When my father was hospitalized for a while I stayed with her alone, one on one, for the first time in years and being with her while she was stressed out was a challenge. It took a lot of time and attention. I realized that for me, that was not a task I wanted to take on- especially since I had my own family to attend to as well. I loved my father dearly and wanted to help out at this time as much as I could, but I realized that, my mother's issues were more than I could manage on my own, and not without professional help- and she controlled that as well.

If she had a medical condition, and refused to cooperate with the providers, or follow their instructions, or give them accurate information so they would know what to do, then I would not be able to help her. Is mental health any different? As long as my mother won't seek appropriate mental health in an honest way and cooperate with her providers, then how could I help her?

Sadly, I realized I had to maintain boundaries and distance with my parents if I was to be able to be emotionally available to my own family. I also had to include myself in this. I gave it all I knew to do, and it wasn't enough and I was emotionally strung out and even physically worn down.

But as FF mentioned, there are consequences to not going along with what my mother wanted. My parents were angry at me.

I know this is different from a spousal relationship, but I also wonder if it still comes down to accepting our own limits.

One thing I need is some reassurance that I definitely should not just "get back in line."

That "line" involves magical thinking, the pretend nothing happened game. As an intelligent human being, you know that takes some cognitive dissonance. I agree with the others to seek help- maybe if it is only for you- to be able to come to terms with what you feel you can do. I spent a lot of time in 12 step co-dependency groups trying to sort out my own situation with my parents. Your wife certainly has issues she would need to work through ( if she chose to) but your feelings are not less worthy of seeking professional help and support for.

[formflier]

 
Again, I can't imagine this is healthy to obsess about, but I can't really stop thinking about it.
 

I support you doing all this and think it IS healthy for you to do AS LONG AS you pass the information along.  As long as you are pushy with it.

That's a kind and healthy thing to do, trying to help another human that is obviously in a bad way.

If you are going to get all this information and then "keep secrets", well that seems like "backsliding" and not something I would want for you.

Either way it's not easy.   

Sending you all the positive thoughts I have!  Stay strong!

Best,

FF

[formflier]

But as FF mentioned, there are consequences to not going along with what my mother wanted. My parents were angry at me.
 

Notwendy

Can you elaborate more on how you "feel" about this now (looking back).  When you look at this area of your life and how you lived out your values? 

Hard to ask without suggesting words.  Are you "at peace" with this?  Is there still a lot of "internal conflict"?  etc etc.

If you had "played along" how would you imagine you would "feel" about things now?

Basically trying to give SC some insight into how he may look at himself and his actions when it is a few years from now and he is looking back.

Best,

FF

[Notwendy]

FF, I have some peace about it now, but it took a long time and a lot of work in 12 step groups to come to terms with it.

For one, I was raised to feel what I think now is a larger responsibility for my mother's feelings and this was the way to gain my father's approval which I very much wanted.

Also, as you probably have noticed, I have strong religious values and so believe we need to honor our parents. I also think this is similar to the belief of honoring our marriage vows.

But there's a dilemma. What if honoring a parent/spouse involves personal harm ( physical or emotional) or infringes on our other obligations such as caring for children.

What if honoring a parent or spouse's wishes involves potential harm to them? ( not getting medical care) or enabling magical thinking ( allowing them to lie) or enabling them to do harm to themselves or others?

I think we have a duty to honor these relationships, but there must be limits.

These are personal things to work out. Everyone interprets their values/religious values differently to some extent and so how I did it isn't applicable to others. But I did have to do some searching - both secular and religious.

There's another aspect to this that SC isn't dealing with and that is, I have my own family. Trying to meet my parents' wishes took an emotional toll and a physical one. I realized that my children needed a mother and I had to preserve some sanity to be a mother to them while also doing what I could for my parents. I was also grieving the impending loss of my father. For SC it could mean considering his obligations to his work, his students, his other family members and ultimately himself in addition to his wife.

They say, sometimes you make a change when you hit bottom and I think this was a bottom for me.

I don't think there's a way to make these decisions without some regret. I wish things were different with my parents, but they are who they are, and I am who I am. I know there are things I could have done better at the time, but I only knew what I knew. I don't think these are choices where one feels good and the other doesn't. It was more about what choice would seem worse at the time. There were consequences. I was painted black to extended family on my mother's side. Some of them have reached out to me to reconcile. It is emotional and yet good to be able to reconnect. Finally having access to her medical records has been somewhat validating. Her caregivers see the issues now.

However, her being elderly makes a difference. She can have caregivers because of that. This is not available like this for a younger person. Lastly, apparently my father planned well for her - and she has the resources for that. For SC this might mean using his resources to ensure his wife has medical care and a means of support for a while if he chooses to leave- not easy on a professor salary, but to the extent he can. This is why a lawyer may be able to help decide this.

Between 12 steps and faith- faith that God sees that I tried, as much as I could, to do the best with a tough choice, whether or not it was the right thing is something that I draw some peace from. There was no bad intentions on my part, no matter if people saw it that way. I think SC has to come to terms with his own choice - no matter what that is, and hopefully work this through. I think it helps to have support through whatever way he needs it- counseling, 12 steps, faith based.

[formflier]

Notwendy

Thanks for being so open.  About how long since you "hit bottom"?  (I think this may help SC with perspective on his own feelings right now)

I'm often shocked at the passage of time and how I "feel" about events (usually dysfunctional ones) in my life.   I'm about 7-8 years out from "hitting bottom" and 6 or so years our from finding out there was a thing called BPD.

FF, I have some peace about it now, but it took a long time and a lot of work in 12 step groups to come to terms with it.

I also see it the same way.  There are days where I would drop "some" from "some peace", but those days are rare. 

My life is infinitely more "peaceful" since I stopped "pretending".

What if honoring a parent or spouse's wishes involves potential harm to them? ( not getting medical care) or enabling magical thinking ( allowing them to lie) or enabling them to do harm to themselves or others?

I think we have a duty to honor these relationships, but there must be limits.

That's really what we are trying to guide SC to  What are the limits?  When is it best to be "silent" and not engage and when is it best to "be the squeaky wheel".

 

  I was also grieving the impending loss of my father. 

SC

Is it fair to say part of what you are experiencing now is "grief"?  There is an element of loss, perhaps loss of a dream or what you believed a marriage would be like.

They say, sometimes you make a change when you hit bottom and I think this was a bottom for me.

SC

Does this connect with your experience?

I don't think there's a way to make these decisions without some regret. I wish things were different with my parents, but they are who they are, and I am who I am.

I was often frustrated because I knew that there was NOT a decision on the table that would be without regret.  That didn't (and often still doesn't) seem fair to me.

I know there are things I could have done better at the time, but I only knew what I knew.

Lots of regret/wishing I had known more earlier.  This is inevitable.  My only words of wisdom about how to get through this is make the best decision you can make NOW, to minimize regret later.

 

  This is why a lawyer may be able to help decide this.

L would be able to say if your "evidence" is enough to have a long involuntary commitment.

 

I think SC has to come to terms with his own choice - no matter what that is, and hopefully work this through. I think it helps to have support through whatever way he needs it- counseling, 12 steps, faith based.

SC

I wish I had more to offer you for emotional support. 

What I can offer with absolute assurance that it's pointing you in the right direction is two issues.

1.  Appropriately letting your wife's mental health team know about the evidence/complaints you have

2.  Taking increasing steps for long term care and growth of you.  I know you have a T and that's good.  My T often chides me about focusing so much on caring for others, vice caring for me.  It's a balancing act. 

What steps can you take today to handle number 1?

What do you think you can add in the next few days for number 2?

Wishing you the best,

FF

[stolencrumbs]

I guess things have returned to their normal not-normal. My wife claims to have made appointments with her T and her P. I have told her T what's going on. I still can't find out who her P is. I did find out what large umbrella organization the P is affiliated with. They can't tell me if my wife is even a patient, but they did take down information I gave them and said that if my wife is a patient of someone there, they will pass the information along. I don't have any way of knowing if this will actually happen. That's where things are on that front.

In my daily life, my wife is really, really pushing hard for me to make some kind of commitment to our marriage and to working towards moving back home. She wants me to move in immediately, but is willing to "compromise" as long as we both agree that that is the goal. We have had this same conversation literally every time I have seen her, and also on a couple of very long phone calls.

I don't know the best way to respond, and I'm getting exhausted having this conversation all the time. I don't see my therapist until Friday, and the chances of making it until then without this coming up seem small. Perhaps the best option would be not to engage in this conversation at all, but I don't know how to do that when the consequences are very real suicide threats, and the option I have open to me (calling the police, going to the hospital, etc.) seems less than ideal based on the last experience. So I do engage, and it never goes well. I usually end up very frustrated after some period of time, and after having the same conversation over and over again.

I try to be consistent in what I say. I mainly emphasize that (a) I want to have these conversations with a T (hers, or someone else) because we aren't very good (including me) at managing them on our own, (b) I am not qualified or able to handle the suicidal thoughts/actions and that I feel like that needs to be the top priority right now, not our relationship, and (c) I need some space and distance from the relationship in order to focus on myself and to be able to breathe and think and just generally not be in crisis mode.

She asks repeatedly if I want a life with her and if I am ever coming back home. I am generally non-committal about this, and I get her being really frustrated with that. But I don't know what to say. She tells me explicitly that if there is no hope for us, she is dead. So I'm not sure how to be completely honest here and say "no, I'm not coming back home." But being non-committal is clearly frustrating. I usually respond with some version of (c) above--that I'm not closing the door on all possibilities, but I need time and space and distance that I haven't gotten. She takes this as a "no," and says I give her no hope. This all repeats over and over again. For hours. Day after day. With lots of crying, sobbing, screaming, begging, etc. Thus far there's no raging, which I guess is good, but small comfort. I don't know how to handle it better. I don't really feel like I'm helping very much right now, but I'm also not sure what alternatives are more helpful.

I can't force her to go see a T with me, and she is very resistant to that. She is willing to do that if I first make a commitment to her and to being together. Otherwise, it's a no-go. Ideally, she would focus on herself, build up some alternative forms of support, and get to a place where she no longer wants to kill herself if we're not together. But it sure doesn't feel like I can help her get to that point, and brutal honesty seems excessively cruel and dangerous right now.

Would love any thoughts on how better to respond or handle these conversations when they come up. Oh, and a particular question she asks repeatedly is "what do you have to lose by trying," by which she means just come home and see what happens and go from there. No idea how to respond effectively to that question. I usually go with some version of that isn't where I am right now, or that I don't feel like that is what is best for me. Those don't go over well, and they also don't really answer the question. I really don't like being non-committal and evasive, and I clearly am, and that clearly frustrates her. But the alternative she's given me is that she'll be dead. I just don't know what to do, so I just keep treading water. I've gotten really good at treading water, but I don't like it.

[formflier]

My first reaction is this:

I would let her know you won't even "consider" a compromise unless it is discuss with her T and her psychiatrist.  Basically that you have a joint session with both.

If she tries to pin you down on what you will or won't say...inform her that you won't agree ahead of time to say or not say anything.

She gets to say her piece and you get to say your piece.  No control either way.

Best,

FF

[formflier]

. Oh, and a particular question she asks repeatedly is "what do you have to lose by trying," by which she means just come home and see what happens and go from there. 

Flip this question on her.

What does she have to loose by "trying" to give you open access to her mental health team?

Best,

FF

[Cat Familiar]

I like formflier’s suggestions, but I would be very careful about giving her any false hope that you’ll ever get back together.

You are negotiating with a terrorist. Instead of holding the gun to your head, she’s holding it to her own.

This sounds like a peculiar suggestion, but you might give a call to your local police emergency negotiator for some ideas. They talk suicidal people down from ledges and know how to communicate with them.

Right now, your wife holds all the cards and thinks she can maneuver you into compliance with her wishes. She’s been successful in the past. You need to break the pattern without her using the ace in the hole.

[Notwendy]

I would not be dishonest about your wishes and agree to stay with her just to keep her from another attempt, but I also understand the delicacy of the situation. Although, if you had to call the authorities again, they may look at this differently the second time. I don't think you should be expected to be responsible for her actions. I know you don't want her to be harmed, but this is putting a decision on you that isn't yours to begin with. I know it's difficult but this is misplaced responsibility.

I don't think it is fair for her to put you in this predicament- commit to me or else...

FF makes a good point of insisting you have access to her T, but this may also set up a false hope or expectation on her part that if she agrees to this, you will commit.

For now when you are asked this, one response is to repeat your boundary over and over again, like a broken record. It's OK to do this. She's going to push the boundary again and again. She will get the same response. She does this because it worked for her for a long time- keep badgering until you give in. This time, you don't.

It may help to see this for what it is. It's manipulation.
Maybe not in a malicious sense, or if she's even conscious of what she's doing.

I hope you can hang in there until you see your T. But basically all you need to say is " I can't give you and answer yet- I need some time to process what happened". Using the "I "form keeps it less confrontational. It's also honest. Repeat as needed.

[formflier]

FF makes a good point of insisting you have access to her T, but this may also set up a false hope or expectation on her part that if she agrees to this, you will commit.
 

It is wise to consider ALL of your actions and words to from the point of view of "are they giving her false hope?"  I fully support that. 

I think you will come to realize that ALL of your actions could and very will are likely going to be taken by her as "giving false hope".

So, then you would want to ask yourself.  Am I responsible for someone taking my words to mean something I have explicitly said they don't mean?

Look at it this way.  You are still there listening and talking?  Is that giving her false hope? 

If we are not going to do anything that may give false hope then you should?

Clarity:  I'm not suggesting you should never talk to her again.  Even if I knew for sure it was giving her "false hope" I think there is a greater potential good than a greater potential bad from continued engagement.

The potential good from a sit down with her P where the truth (evidence and all) can be presented is...massive.  I simply don't know how to "calculate" or "describe" it.

The potential bad from giving her yet more false hope is also not really "calculatable" (new FF word according to spell check), because you'll never know what "pushes her over the edge with false hope". 

Hows that for over explaining my position/thinking.

SC you are doing massive good work here.   MASSIVE.  Please don't take any of my comments as criticism.  Hopefully you are finding ideas/points of view to evaluate here that you would not have thought of on your own. 

You can do this!  Keep up the good work.

Best,

FF

[AskingWhy]

A book to consider is called, "Emotional Blackmail."  It is not a scholarly book, but I found it helpful in some ways when my uBPD H emotionally blackmails me.

Take care, SC.  We are here for you.

[sweetheart]

sc I am unclear from your post as to what you want from your relationship and your wife, and for yourself.
Of course this is the conflicted forum so that's ok and you admit to being evasive but this approach is clearly negatively impacting upon your wife's current mental state.

However if I'm unclear, then that lack of clarity will be translating itself to your wife also which will be in turn informing her current levels of emotional dysregulation.

Do you know if you want to be with your wife, do you want your marriage to continue?

If so what do you want from your wife in order for this to be possible, if not then you need to tell her that you want to end your marriage.

It seems to me that not being clear with her hasn't improved the situation at all and you are still having to contend with suicidal ideation, planning and suicidal behaviours and attempts. Not telling your wife has not stopped this pattern of behaviour, but by you being unclear about what you want has inadvertently exacerbated her emotional instability.



Welfare checks, calling the police, being admitted to hospital for assessment whether you like or agree with it or not is the correct pathway for someone who is actively expressing suicidal intent, or engaged in self-injurious behaviour of any kind.
 That is the correct Safety Plan/Protocol, because we are not equipped to deal with it any other way, it has to be handed over to professionals every single time.


I'm sure you are very familiar with the concept of FOG, fear, obligation, guilt. Until you are able to find support through these areas that you are so clearly struggling with, the impasse that you are in will continue.

[stolencrumbs]

sweetheart,
I want to divorce. I have told my wife this. She asked me to press pause on the divorce, and I agreed to do that, but I made it clear that I wanted space and that wanting a divorce is where I was at. This was a few months ago. I got my own place two months ago, and that was at least one of the triggers for her current behavior. Things have been very bad since then. I think that she knows, on some level, that the marriage is over, but every concrete action that reinforces that sends her into a tailspin, complete with suicidal thoughts and behaviors. I have been evasive about the finality of things, but I think I've been pretty clear and consistent about how I see the marriage, about wanting to focus on me, about not seeing a future together, etc. What I haven't done is say "no, that's it, we're done, here are the papers."

I wish I actually believed that calling the police, going to the hospital, etc. was always the correct pathway. I just don't. I don't think I'm equipped to deal with it, but I don't think the system (at least where I am) is equipped to deal with it either.

There is definitely a lot of FOG, and it definitely feels like manipulation, whether it is intentional or conscious or not. I am trying to work on not acting on that.

[babyducks]

I wish I actually believed that calling the police, going to the hospital, etc. was always the correct pathway. I just don't. I don't think I'm equipped to deal with it, but I don't think the system (at least where I am) is equipped to deal with it either.

I understand you don't believe that calling the police, going to the hospital was/is the correct pathway.

I'm wondering if you could describe what the correct pathway would look and feel like for you.         

I'm curious about the same thing with being 'equipped to deal with it'.     how do you define being equipped to deal with it?     what would equipped look like?   

would it be possible to suggest a inpatient stay at a hospital of your choice?   some place that better fits your criteria?

[I Am Redeemed]

Hi SC,

FWIW, I understand completely what you are saying about "the system". I'm in the South, too, and I think that around here the protocol usually consists of exactly what you described when your wife went to the hospital this last time. In this area, it seems that unless someone does something in front of a mental health professional that presents a danger to self or others, involuntary admission to psych hospitals is unlikely.

As you said before, even a stay in a hospital is short term and meant to stabilize the patient out of crisis. The patient is then responsible for following up. There doesn't seem to be much that is done other than that. I would think her T would be the most likely person to be able to get her admitted for long term treatment, but she would have to see the need for it.

Can I ask why you agreed to press "pause" on the divorce, and what did you hope would happen in the meantime? Did you give yourself a time limit for when you would "unpause" it, or were you thinking that there was the possibility that you might reconsider and decide to remain in the marriage?

I know this is very hard, but if divorce is what you have decided, then there will never be a right time. Are you trying to hold on until something can be done to stabilize your wife so you can file for divorce? How likely do you think it is that she will ever be stable enough to handle that decision?

It is a hard place to be, in limbo like that. I stayed in it for a while until I had to make the choice to go no contact. My situation was different from yours, of course, as there was physical abuse in my marriage, but the longer I held on waiting to see if my ex would seek treatment and really make an effort to save the r/s (which is what he said he wanted) the more I saw that he was only willing to pressure and guilt me into coming back into the r/s ''as is", without any professional help on his part to address the core issues. 

[sweetheart]

babyducks beat me to the question.
 
I too am interested in what your version of the correct pathway would look like for your wife’s repeated suicide ideation, threats and ongoing mental health issues?

[stolencrumbs]

Called the police again tonight. Nothing has really changed since the last incident. Same things happen. Repeatedly. The last two nights, she's been explicitly threatening to "let go" of the dogs. She tells me that is because once she does that, she won't be able to live with herself and that will motivate her to kill herself. Tonight she was telling me all of this on the phone. Then she started walking with the dogs on the leash, at 11:00 pm, in the pouring rain. She was very drunk and had taken some assortment of pills. She told me she was walking to the highway (which is very close to our house). Kept giving me 30 seconds to tell her I am coming back home before she lets go of the dogs and kills herself. And so on. At some point she told me she was laying down on the side of the road. I called the police. They found her laying down on the side of the road behind our house with the dogs. They called and talked to me and I told them what was going on, and as much history as I could in a short phone call. Ten minutes later my wife called me back. The police had left. She offered them pecan pie, told them she was just walking the dogs, and that we were having "problems" in our marriage. She then continued yelling at me and saying exactly the same things, only adding taunts about how calling the police didn't "get me what I wanted."

No professional cares one bit about what I say. The three times I've called the police have amounted to a week at a mental hospital, two days in the ER, and a ten minute visit with the cops. In that order. I don't know what a good system looks like. This one sucks. It doesn't work. Nobody cares what I say. Nobody cares what evidence I have. Nobody is helping her. It would be great to get "professionals" involved. They're not. Sure doesn't seem like they're going to be. I am not at all qualified to deal with this. I don't think I am. But nobody else is doing a damn thing.

I am way beyond frustrated.  

[Cat Familiar]

I can see how completely frustrating this situation is. What complicates it is that your wife is intelligent and able to manipulate her way out of being held accountable for her threats.

You must be so worn down by this after so many times of hearing her threaten to take her own life.    

No one should be put in this position of being held hostage by their partner’s suicidal threats, and you’ve experienced this behavior for years.

I only had a few times when I was in your position and my ex husband threatened suicide, and it was gut wrenching. He never threatened it again after I asked him what his final wishes were—whether he wanted to be cremated or buried, and if he wished his mother and sisters to view his body.

I’m not suggesting you do that, but I was done trying to prop him up and if he truly wished to end his life, I wasn’t going to stand in his way.

I learned a couple of years later after I divorced him, that he was holding his new girlfriend “emotional hostage” with suicide threats—that was the term she used.

[Notwendy]

I don't think this is because the professionals don't care. They are bound by legal definitions of "danger to oneself or others". They can not hold or force hospitalization on someone against their will unless they meet this criteria.

I would focus on your response. You are not there to assess her and you aren't a professional. I think leaving this to the police to decide is fine. You may need to call them as much as is needed. That is their job, not yours.

You running to her threats will reinforce the manipulative behavior. She doesn't want them, she wants you. Calling the police is a natural consequence of making such threats.

When she makes  these threats,  calling the police is helpful to you. While you are frustrated that they didn't do more- they did exactly the right thing- assessed the situation without you reinforcing her threats and encouraging more of the same.

Why does the make these threats? Because they probably worked in the past to keep you running to her. So it may take some time for her to learn they don't work. You might experience an extinction burst to test them, but now isn't the time to go back on your determination to not reinforce this.  The police can get there faster than you can. They are trained to deal with this.  I hope she doesn't harm herself, but there isn't a way you can know her intentions, and you aren't trained to assess someone. Let the professionals do this.

[formflier]

So, was there any plan or instructions from her previous discharge about what you should do when/if she threatens suicide again?

So sorry this is continuing?

Best,

FF

[stolencrumbs]

So, was there any plan or instructions from her previous discharge about what you should do when/if she threatens suicide again?

So sorry this is continuing?

Best,

FF

No. There is no plan. There was no plan. There has been no instruction. The professionals think she’s fine being at home. I guess I’ll just go with that. She’s fine. They’re the pros!

(And apologies for sarcasm. Not directed at anyone. I’m just frustrated. And there is no break. If I don’t go over there tonight, the same thing will happen.)

[Notwendy]

And if you do go over there tonight, then the same thing will happen when you don't.

I think it would help for you to  be clear about what it is that you want. Do you want to be an emotional hostage to your marriage? Do you want to be at her beck and call for suicide watch?

Or do you want to let the professionals handle it. If she does this again, you call police again. Maybe you will call them every night---.

Are you rationalizing your own fears of what she may do? "the professionals aren't going to do anything, I'm the only one who can deal with this"

Then you are setting the stage for yourself to be part if what will continue her behavior and being responsible for her decisions.

Just because the police are not handling it as you wish they would, doesn't mean they aren't handling it. They aren't emotionally involved like you are. They have assessed the situation. They also have not reinforced the behavior like you are when you come running.

There is a risk that they are wrong. I hope she doesn't (heaven forbid) harm herself, but still, that is their responsibility, not yours.

She won't likely do anything if you are there 24/7 with her, and don't take your eyes off her, even for a minute. To do anything else is taking a risk. Do you want to do this?