Will all guys objectify the women in their lives

[confusedbybdp]

Split from: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=340524.0

Hi Red5,

Thank you for a beautiful description of your ideal life partner.  I guess we all have some idea of what a true reciprocal, mature love would look like, and it is a far cry from what we have been through with our partners w BPD.

Maybe you can help me...I used to be a "hopeless romantic."   Now I'm gun shy of being considered a sexual object.  My uBPDexbf became more and more obsessed with sex, wanting it multiple times a day, every day, and being angry when he didn't get it.  When we weren't actually having sex, he was telling me his sexual fantasies in graphic detail FOR HOURS ON END!  I believed he loved me (but who knows), and we were strongly attracted to each other, but I began to feel that it was sex and only sex that kept things running smoothly (for a while).

Red5, I'm scared.  Will all guys objectify the women in their lives, and use them for a release?  I searched your description of the ultimate partner, and I found so much more that was important to you.   I'm not saying that a strong attraction and sexuality isn't important.  But does it dominate the "average" man's desire for a life partner?  I am wondering if I should just stop dreaming about someone who will love all of me, not just what I can do for them sexually.  

[formflier]

Red5, I'm scared.  Will all guys objectify the women in their lives, and use them for a release?  I searched your description of the ultimate partner, and I found so much more that was important to you.   I'm not saying that a strong attraction and sexuality isn't important.  But does it dominate the "average" man's desire for a life partner?  I am wondering if I should just stop dreaming about someone who will love all of me, not just what I can do for them sexually.   

The quick answer (IMO) is yes, it dominates the average man's desire for a life partner.  That being said, I can see it playing out in many different ways.

From my own experience and from talking to guy friends,  I think that if the sexual relationship is going well, then men are open to all different kinds of love.  If the sexual relationship is not going well, I think it's hard for men to focus on other things.

Best,

FF

[confusedbybdp]

Wow, formflier, that is really disappointing.    Thank you so much for taking the time to respond to my question about the "average" man's thoughts about the sexual nature of a relationship.

I have to really think about this before considering entering into another relationship.  I don't know if I can have sex play such a big role in my life anymore. 

It may be different for men, but many women feel overly sexualized in the eyes of men, and in the culture at large.  We are gawked at, whistled at, cat called, etc. from an early age.  Sex screams at us from advertisements in magazines and newspapers, movies, books, comic books, you name it.  It is everywhere and we are bombarded with it. 

On the other hand, I had one relationship where the sexual attraction was very strong on both sides, and I didn't feel objectified, just loved.  It's confusing.

But, thanks for taking the time to respond to my query.  I really appreciate your honesty.

[Red5]

...that is really disappointing...the "average" man's thoughts about the sexual nature of a relationship.

I have to really think about this before considering entering into another relationship.  I don't know if I can have sex play such a big role in my life anymore. 

It may be different for men,

...I had one relationship where the sexual attraction was very strong on both sides, and I didn't feel objectified, just loved.  It's confusing.

...I really appreciate your honesty.

Cb/BPD,

I’ll have to disagree with Formflier here...

I have a very different view here...

I will expound further tomorrow... way too much to type out on an iPhone...

So tomorrow...

Very Respectfuly... Red5

[formflier]

But, thanks for taking the time to respond to my query.  I really appreciate your honesty.

So..these things are on a spectrum and sticking with my own personal experience, I can say that sex has become less important as I've aged.  (likely a hormone thing)

Plus there was a while in my relationship with my wife (my pwBPD) when I was the one treated as the sex object and it was obvious, sometimes even explicitly stated that feelings didn't matter...that I had a duty to perform.  (fyi...a psychologist described my wife's behavior at the time as "hypersexual")

Thankfully things have calmed immensely in my relationship and I suspect we are more down on the spectrum towards "normal".

There is a generally accepted "conundrum" in male/female relationships that goes something like this.

Gals want to feel emotionally close/safe before they feel like being sexual and men want to get sex "out of the way" before feeling emotionally close. 

You can see the obvious "tension" there. 

What I completely agree with you on is I don't see a relationship lasting long term, where one or both partners ignore each other's sexual and emotional desires.  Perhaps even worse that ignoring is "dismissing as unimportant" emotional and sexual desires. 

Best,

FF

[Skip]

Sexual objectification is the act of treating a person as a mere object of sexual desire. Objectification more broadly means treating a person as a commodity or an object without regard to their personality or dignity. Objectification is most commonly examined at the level of a society, but can also refer to the behavior of individuals and is a type of dehumanization.

This is a complex and difficult subject and one with many political overtones. Is this really the issue that concerns you or is the issue "hypersexuality", or even "sex addiction".  Your partner sounds more like this.  And no, not all men are sex craved. But some are.

I'm sure you can find plenty of men who are sexually compatible with you. Someone who has the same interests and can align his intensity, and tempo with yours.

If the chemistry is way off, no matter how well you mesh in other ways, it will be a constant struggle in the relationship. Same as with other core values like integrity, faith, etc.

Sorry you had to go through that. Better times are coming!

[Cat Familiar]

I don’t have much experience with “normal” guys, other than during college days, when hormones ran rampant. But my first BPD husband was much like your boyfriend, and undoubtedly a sex addict. His attitude totally turned me off to him and to sex.

My current BPD husband was very sexually compatible with me at the beginning of our relationship. However over time, that part of our marriage withered. It was as if any conflict we had made him withdraw permanently from that closeness.

We get along great for the most part, but that part of our relationship has never returned.

[Red5]

Hello Confused b/bpd!

Red5, I'm scared.  Will all guys objectify the women in their lives, and use them for a release? 

I searched your description of the ultimate partner, and I found so much more that was important to you.   

I'm not saying that a strong attraction and sexuality isn't important. 

But does it dominate the "average" man's desire for a life partner? 

I am wondering if I should just stop dreaming about someone who will love all of me, not just what I can do for them sexually.   

Formflier writes… The quick answer (IMO) is yes, it dominates the average man's desire for a life partner.  That being said, I can see it playing out in many different ways.

My take on this… no, not all guys, men, and old men alike… why do I think this… well; sexual desire between a man and a woman, is a natural and instinctual thing, now add the many dynamics of how a young man, and a young woman are raised, their "tribal" family upbringing, their culture… hormones, ageing… now further add in the current world we now live in, perhaps compared to the previous two centuries, and what we understand about human nature, and how human nature has been "corrupted" by the constant "sexualization" via the electronic age, whereas before it was the "printed age"…

As I look back in my own history, as far back as age sixteen through twenty, yes, a young mans #1 priority is to mate with a woman, at this age a young teenage girl, or a girls in her early twenties, I once "dated" a girl, a young woman, who was 23, and I was barely 18… she was quite the "lioness"!, and she was the one who stalked me  … so I agree with my good friend Formflier there… its all about the human anatomy, growing up, and growing old, the hormonal instinctual urge to reproduce… add the caveat of hyper sexualization of the age we currently live in… and the culture…

So to effectively answer your question, it will be dependent upon with measurement / increment, waypoint that you are at currently in your life (spectrum?)… back to me… when I was a raging teenager, yes, all of us "boys" were "on the hunt" so to speak, even years later, through my early twenties, even after being married (at age 18), and having fathered three children by age 26… I was all about chasing the wife around the bedroom… and I did appreciate the vision, and view of a beautiful, vibrant, and virile sexual woman… yes I did, and I still do, but now its no longer all about sex… for me anyways.

There was within me, (and there still is)… the instinct to protect my own woman, to be able to please her, thus ensuring that my "legacy" would remain intact… like a lion pride perhaps…

Moving forward in life, past 30, 40, now 53 years old… as Formflier says, age, and the actual aging process does change things considerably, and men do all fall along that spectrum, and the yard stick measurements all along that spectrum, and now add personality types… one man may think one way about women, and another man may think in a 180 degree heading from the first guy… sex may or may not be important, "male menopause syndrome"… sex drives climb and descend… both in the woman, and the man… do 80 year old's, 90 year olds still have sex… some may, many perhaps do not… even these who are in their late 50's, or 60's may or may not…

Cougars… "man whores"… oh' boy!

If the relationship can survive, and the couple stays together, grows together, reproduces children together… that's a very strong "symbiotic bond"… there is way more to the life long relationship other than sex… sex is for the purpose of reproduction of the species, that's the BLUF… so that aspect (instinct) will always be there… the instinctual aspect is very strong… the primal urge to "reproduce", both in the woman, and the in the man… which to me is millions of years of programing, deep seated primal instinct… the preservation of the tribe, the pride, ensuring that the species survives… (DNA),

I have read a lot about the "instinctual woman"… and her auto programed urge to "procreate"… its hard wired… she will instinctually seek out a strong man to copulate with, to seek to ensure that she gives birth to the strongest possible offspring, thus continuing the "bloodline"… the tribe, strength, virility… etc' etc' etc'… all instinct…

We call this "love"… ?

So do two old lions "hang out"… do lions practice monogamy?

Most humans have issues with even these simple "rules of engagement".

So if your still reading my "wondering banter"… basically, to answer your question('s)…
*Will all guys objectify the women in their lives, and use them for a release?
*I am wondering if I should just stop dreaming about someone who will love all of me, not just what I can do for them sexually.

Well, its going to depend on the suspect / subject lion your stalking across the Serengeti, … they are all different, this is where your instinct comes to play… trust your instincts… (your gut)… the mind and the heart are always sparring with each other as to what to direct you to do… but the gut instinct is a hard wired go, no-go system… trust it.

Make yourself a "checklist"… (Formflier loves checklists!)
*is he a strong lion
*is a young, or an old lion
*is he scared up, but tough in his demeanor
*is a beautiful lion, perhaps a "grass eating lion"
*does he eat the young, or teach them to hunt
*is he a protector, or does he run away
*how does he treat the other "lionesses" in the pride

Perhaps a silly analogy…

Ok, closing it up now… to quote the Crusader Knight in the Indian Jones movie… "you must chose wisely"!

You are preprogramed, you have a "template" of the "perfect mate" in your mind, heart, in your instinctual system… tap into that… and trust your gut… life is risky, one lion will only want to "objectify the female lions in their lives, and use them for a release"… and another lion will want you for life, and will protect you, and treasure you… just got to figure out which one is which, go back to "instinct" for that.

As for me, I'm an old lion now, I've "contributed" to the pride, and I've had several lionesses in my life over the years… I'm scared up, and a little slow now… but I do still appreciate the sight of a beautiful lioness, in her prime, but I'm a "one lioness" kind of lion… have been for a long time now… so I've come to cherish all the things in that list ^up there^… and I'm still trying to get there, yes I am.

If you find the right one (lion) confusedbybpd, you will have a long and prosperous life with him, if you don't, then you will have to endure it, and survive it, make some hard choices… many of is here are in that exact "relationship construct" right now, we are "enduring"… "surviving"… as I man, who was once a young, strong, dumb, and full of "vinegar" for life… yes, I thought with the wrong brain, eg' hormones/primal instinct… and I chose "unwisely"… the (my) history speaks for itself… and then I went back out and got hitched to another (lioness)… still haven't gotten it right yet… but I'm working on it.

Live your life, don't be afraid to enjoy relationships, just be sure you trust your gut instinct, and choose wisely, because there are all types, and "sizes" (prowess & personalities) of lions out there… and if your still looking later in life, the rules of engagement will change… exponentially.

Not all guys think only about sex, but a lot do...

Hope this helps!

Red5

[zachira]

I think it helps to remember that there are all types of people out there. Once we get in our thirties, the best people who are our age or older are no longer in the dating pool. Some of the finest men I know are happily married men who treat me with respect and kindness, and not like a sex object. When I am my best self, that is when I attract the best people, while at the same time I regularly meet men who are single who are unable to have a healthy relationship. I am now meeting men who are single who seem be genuinely nice people; it is just we don't have much in common in terms of shared interests.

[formflier]

Make yourself a "checklist" … (Formflier loves checklists!)
 

Oh yes...love checklists!

and also add the following.

1.  How does the lion react to "getting a raincheck"
2.  How does the lion react to "demand for a quicky" 

At first glance, it might appear that 1 is more important, but I would suggest both are equally important.

Most of the time in BPDish relationships the "pushback" comes in the form of shaming or complaining that "we always" or "we never", vice something supportive or kind.

Imagine what your life would be like if you were in a relationship with someone and you "knew" and were completely confident that if you had a sudden urge for romper room...that it would happen unless there was a really really good reason and that if you "had to" offer your partner a rain check that it would be received graciously and likely with thanks.

I would suggest that a person that had confidence about this, would rarely think about and most likely would end up actually having a lot more sex than those who  "worried" about the reactions.

Best,

FF

[confusedbybdp]

 
Thanks to all who took the time to weigh in on this "weighty" subject!  I appreciate all of you.  You have given me much to think about, and I will write more as other thoughts and reactions occur to me.  I hope you will do the same, as this is an important topic for BPD and non-BPD relationships alike.

You are preprogramed, you have a "template" of the "perfect mate" in your mind, heart, … in your instinctual system … tap into that … and trust your gut … life is risky, one lion will only want to "objectify the female lions in their lives, and use them for a release" … and another lion will want you for life, and will protect you, and treasure you … just got to figure out which one is which, … go back to "instinct" for that.


This is a really interesting starting point for this evening, and in my mind, it relates directly to my ex - BPD relationship, though perhaps it could have happened just as well in a "normal" relationship.  You see, the pwBPD in my life was a "waif" or "quiet" borderline.  I had been on my own by choice for 10 years (I'm a bit of a loner - okay, maybe that's a bit of an understatement!  ). I was happy and content or so I thought.  My pwBPD was someone I had met several years before we started seeing each other.  I liked him and was attracted to him, so I made sure to stay away from him!   My achilles heel is "rescue," so when he texted that he had just had back surgery and was facing another major surgery, and was reaching out to his friends, I offered to visit, bring coffee, etc.  Immediately, I was attracted again (gulp!).      As our relationship progressed, he seemed "safe" - he didn't come on strong, he was an artist, he loved reading, and we often read passages to each other in the evening.  My defenses were down, and our mutual attraction naturally grew...and became sexual.

I used to tell him that he "got under the radar."  He seemed so non-threatening - yay!    BUT, what I didn't realize was that this was not a normal relationship in any way.  It quickly became bizarre, confusing, disordered, and toxic.

That is all to say that I got into trouble because I didn't trust my instincts.  I saw the red flags - his inability to be alone, his grasping for more and more of my time, his childlike meltdowns, his rage, and much more.  I initiated breakups with him 20 times in 18 months, and was spectacularly charmed 19 times!  The last one "took."

I only hope as I move forward that I will more fully trust my instincts and choose "wisely." 

Thank you all again for being there, and for taking the time to share your thoughts with me.   

[secretgirl]

Hi confusedbybpd...
as a woman who is rather dealing with this on a daily basis in my life... my answer is somewhere in the middle. Yes and No.

I think most men AND women for that matter want sex if they're mentally sound. Because you had endured forms of sexual abuse and objectification, as I have, it takes time to get over this so I think it's not so much that you don't want sex as you want a partner who understands this aspect about you.

My T and I talk about this A LOT because of my past work ... so let me put it this way, any woman (or any man) who has dealt with sexual abuse/assault in some form or another, is more likely to feel pressured into sex more often when compared to someone who has not experienced those things.
My T said that because of this, I need to choose a man who RESPECTS me and is PATIENT with me, well knowing my past and experiences... this does not mean no sex ever. This means... a man who is willing to stop whenever you feel uncomfortable, a man who is willing to be patient with you "putting out", a man who is willing to show you that they won't leave if you refuse to perform sexual acts or intercourse.
I think it comes down to not avoiding sex altogether, but finding someone who respects your boundaries and "goes slow" with you, so to speak. This builds trust... and when you form trust, it builds a comfortable space for you to open up and be more sexual.

At least that's what rings true to me... I LOVE sex... but I DON"T like being objectified, or treated like I'm some orifice any man can stick his dink into at any point. I think this is what some of the members were trying to describe as "men want to have sex and get it out of the way before feelings."

There's no problem you putting out in any way whenever you want... usually, to be honest, I like to get sex out of the way too to "test drive the car" so to speak because what if you aren't compatible or there's no chemistry? That's a huge issue too... BUT , thereon after, you must remember this ... as a codependent, we are used to pleasing others and giving even if it means we aren't happy which is bad... so remember... YOU CAN SAY NO AT ANY GIVEN POINT... and if you DO NOT give consent, it's SEXUAL ABUSE.

I think we forget this. And believe me, a man who LOVES you. WILL respect you. Whether or not he wants to decide if the lack of sexuality at times isn't "enough" for him is up to him, and has nothing to do with you. Don't ever perform sexual acts when you aren't feeling it.

And men can put up boundaries too... my ex always complained that I can't walk around naked or he wants to attack me and I'm "asking for it" ... and as much as I do NOT agree with his view... I respected his boundary and never walked around naked in front of him. Another boundary he had was no making out heavily if I wasn't going to get into the act... again, I respected that... but again, he has BPD. I think with anyone mentally sound I've been with... they have never ever made me feel guilty for not wanting to have sex even after making out... if I'm not feeling it or into it, they don't press.

When I find a guy presses, he is not respecting me. I went on a date with a guy once who only talked about my looks, my chest , etc. how sexy I was... it was never about me as a person... I brought up my past and how I don't like to feel objectified... and he still kept asking me to wear certain outfits... and perform dances for him like I did at work which made me feel uncomfortable and eventually it ended up him asking me to come over all the time, never taking me out on dates yet spending money to BUY me lingerie and outfits to wear for him?
What's wrong with this picture? I have said I have objectification issues, I had said I felt uncomfortable... yet he is unwilling to spend money to take me out yet willing to spend it on his own selfish need for sex... and I dumped him. that was that. If someone does NOT respect you, don't ever feel guilty for leaving. and don't ever do anything you're uncomfortable with because it gets worse and worse.
and guess what? when I dumped this guy and explained why (because I felt objectified) he said he didn't care and that I "wasn't the girl he thought I was." LOL there's literally NOTHING to say to that. Sure it felt sh*itty... sure it hurt... but at the same time I look back at it now and it's ridiculous . Whatever own issues he has, he's got to deal with. When people react this way it's usually due to insecurity and immaturity I find. So there was not much on my end to respond. it wouldn't have helped anyways. I said my part .

At the end of the day, you be yourself. If you can't take care of yourself, no one else will. You should be your #1 priority. If it means no dates/no sex for a while, then just be happy and live your life without dates and sex. When you're ready, you will know.
Don't let anyone pressure you into anything or push you around.
That's my take on this.