On the topic of God, and faith (being another dysfunctional relationship)

[Imatter33]

My mom has been single for upwards of 20 years, never remarrying after my Dad.
My whole life her interpersonal struggle with faith and God seems to be the major dysfunctional relationship. This has caused another layer of difficulty because every person's walk with God is unique and you can't tell someone how to relate to Him.

But she will have many conversations start off with God is telling me, and God is directing me...

She usually finds a ministry to financially support and her use of money is always impulsive. The pastor's that lead the churches become all good, until they are all bad,
God is all good, until he is all bad.

It is very confusing and I am not looking for much in a reply, except that maybe spiritual members of this board have seen this relationship play out as well?

Personally, I found the strength to go NC mostly because I was seeking my own church family and relationship with God, that my mom couldn't influence.

But I want to extend love to her and when you intermingle faith and mental illness, boundaries...it's all so complex.

[R2D2]

I can relate somewhat with my uBPD sibling. Her dysfunctional relationships tend to be with authority figures and with institutions - they are either all good or all bad. Right now, church is all bad, as are Christians generally. Her mentors in graduate school are all good.

It's been hard at times to know if she really does have BPD because she never goes love/hate on anyone in the family, but observing the way she will do it with other entities has been enlightening.

[formflier]

But I want to extend love to her and when you intermingle faith and mental illness, boundaries...it's all so complex.

Can you limit discussions with her to matters other than faith?

I know EXACTLY what you mean about "all good" and then "all bad".  It's something I struggle with in my relationship with my wife.

Sadly, there is a correlation that goes like this,  less "God" in our relationship correlates to increased stability.  More "God" correlates to less stability.

I wish it were not that way...but it is.

Wishing you strength as you sort through this!

Best,

FF

[Imatter33]

FF,
Something you replied with to another member hit home for me.

So, back to NC versus LC.  I don't remember all the details of the transition but I remember I could either go through a bunch of gymnastics  to maintain NC or childcare and logistics would be easier with LC.  So...I chose to make my life easier.

I say this to suggest that you'll know when it's OK to try LC.  If you are debating it or can't see a clear benefit, likely best to maintain NC.  

Then I realized you were the same person that most recently replied to my post. I appreciate your insight.

You asked if we could limit our topics of conversation, (assuming I go lc at some point) and I just don't know if it is possible. For as long as I can remember I was the person with whom "mom got deep with." She doesn't really have the wiring to stay surface level.


She will describe it as "wanting to know me, and wanting me to know her, "her faith and heart" all words that have come to mean to me...(emotional land mines)  So right now i am nc for there is no clear benefit to lc.

My therapist posed a question to me today that I obviously have to think on. She asked if I thought "being nc means that I do not care." And to an extent this is what I am thinking. I am afraid its what everyone thinks of me. That I all of a sudden do not care about her, or my family.

Her question ultimately being,

What does it look like to care about someone w/ no contact or low contact?

[formflier]

There is an interesting perspective/thought in your post.

You are suggesting that you can't do LC because your Mom "isn't surfacey".

Here is the thing.  Your Mom doesn't have a vote about how much you share...does she?

How do you see it playing out if you try LC and she wants more?

Best,

FF

[Imatter33]

Here is the thing.  Your Mom doesn't have a vote about how much you share...does she?


My lack of sharing in the past has been the very thing that sends her in a rage. But the most hurtful thing about it, her rage always comes after a lovely and peaceful time together.  It somehow turns religious too. She categorizes surface things...(like getting a cup of coffee and organizing a closet (as example) as "being just a mom."
"I can't just be your mom, I am a child of God that yearns for his heart." "If you don't want to seek truth with me ...it gets super complex and strange.
 
My whole reason for going NC was that she is warm and then super cold at a flip of an invisible switch, and it felt too painful to subject myself (and my new baby around)

8 months ago already.

[Imatter33]

If she wants more if I do decide to go lc, I see it getting confrontational and maybe her deciding to go nc with me. Some sort of power struggle and manipulation.


oof, i have a headache even thinking about it.

[formflier]

Can you read your posts while attempting to be a neutral third party?

Asking yourself if the poster is "doing" the relationship with his Mom on "mom's terms" or "his terms"

This is tough stuff and I promise you there is important stuff for you to understand and reflect on here.

Best,

FF

[TelHill]

My mom has been single for upwards of 20 years, never remarrying after my Dad.
My whole life her interpersonal struggle with faith and God seems to be the major dysfunctional relationship. This has caused another layer of difficulty because every person's walk with God is unique and you can't tell someone how to relate to Him.

But she will have many conversations start off with God is telling me, and God is directing me...

She usually finds a ministry to financially support and her use of money is always impulsive. The pastor's that lead the churches become all good, until they are all bad,
God is all good, until he is all bad.

This situation reminds me of my late husband's late mom. She went through every religion out there until she started her own house study with a group of lady friends a few years before she had a stroke which disabled her.

My late h said she was looking for a magic wand to resolve her issues. When it became obvious it wasn't happening, she jumped ship a lot. She wasn't bpd, but had some issues. My late husband became a lifelong atheist at 12.  He was tired of the church hopping and decided belief in God was like believing in Santa Claus.

Maybe I'm going out on a limb here, but could God/religion be a substitute for an absent husband to your bpd mom? It seems like an extra added layer of mom control issues for you since it's coming from her. Not sure your dad was around during your formative years.

I was raised Catholic - went in and out of atheism in college and 20s but have remained Catholic for 25 straight years. Practicing religion is difficult with a normal upbringing.

Take your time to think about what you want to do here, would be my suggestion, taking headstrong mom's reaction into account. My mother is headstrong and stubborn, too. In my church, God is not headstrong and stubborn. He's gentle, kind and understanding. He likes to be talked to. He likes to be asked for courage and wisdom.   

It is very confusing and I am not looking for much in a reply, except that maybe spiritual members of this board have seen this relationship play out as well?

Personally, I found the strength to go NC mostly because I was seeking my own church family and relationship with God, that my mom couldn't influence.

But I want to extend love to her and when you intermingle faith and mental illness, boundaries...it's all so complex.

[Imatter33]

How do I do the excerpt function? I need to figure that out . THen i will absolutely reply. Thank you!

[formflier]

How do I do the excerpt function? I need to figure that out . THen i will absolutely reply. Thank you!

Just tap the excerpt button and then start typing above or below the cut out portion.

If you want to split it up...what I do is cut and paste the top line


[quote author=Imatter33 link=topic=340600.msg13086897#msg13086897 date=1573664450

have the quote you want in here

then use the bottom line cut and past

[/quote


For both of the above there is a "closed box" at the end I removed so you can see how it looks

If you close the box it looks like this.

have the quote you want in here

then use the bottom line cut and past

Play with it a bit.  You'll get it.

Best,

FF

[Imatter33]

Maybe I'm going out on a limb here, but could God/religion be a substitute for an absent husband to your bpd mom? It seems like an extra added layer of mom control issues for you since it's coming from her. Not sure your dad was around during your formative years.

Telhill,
I think you hit the nail on the head and it's what i have began to see probably for close to 2-3 years.

 In other boards I did some reflection on that "boundaries are for me." The addition of God in my mom's dysfunction only reiterates that my boundaries need to be even stronger. In my formative years my dad was around (in a pretty strict custody agreement of one day per week for 7 hours) And at that time, my dad "didn't know God like she did." He was misinformed and doing it wrong.

This many years later:

 I think my mother thought that if her beliefs were shared or followed  by me then she would be assured of her place in my life as an adult.  And if and when I  were to get stern with her, then I somehow rejected God's will. (Yeah that's a big one.)

However, through a lot of hard work, heartache, and reflection I see that it is perfectly acceptable that I control my own life. (Including my personal relationship with God)
Control does not need to be synonymous with selfish.
Control along with healthy boundaries are crucial to my own self-discovery.

One thing that I notice that keeps coming up for me, is that I have seen through the FOG, and I know I don't have my values established.  So I'm at that step, but I feel like I don't know myself. Or that I have gotten so used to listening to others, I don't know my own desires or voice.
I thought this step would be easier.



Thank you FF for the tutorial. Maybe I did this right.

[formflier]

Thank you FF for the tutorial. Maybe I did this right.

Nailed it!  Solid work!

Best,

FF

[pursuingJoy]

I think my mother thought that if her beliefs were shared or followed  by me then she would be assured of her place in my life as an adult.  And if and when I  were to get stern with her, then I somehow rejected God's will. (Yeah that's a big one.)

Control does not need to be synonymous with selfish.
Control along with healthy boundaries are crucial to my own self-discovery.

I was raised by a NPD missionary who used scripture to control and dominate. Any form of self-advocacy or feeling of empowerment was considered selfish. Breaking away was challenging, to say the least. My recovery came in phases: embracing the reality of my upbringing, then years of personally untangling 'faith' that was used to perpetuate and justify unhealthy relating. What Turkish is saying about separating the faith pieces out really helped me, not so much in conversation with my dad, it was an internal conversation for me.

You've done great work so far. It takes a good deal of courage to face all of this, and you're in good company on this board. I'm glad you're here!

I thought this step would be easier.

I hear you. You've come so far, and at the same time you've just started. If your journey is anything like mine, recovery is a lifetime endeavor. It's a little like discovering muscles you didn't know you had and learning to use them...and you need to keep using them. It can be discouraging, enlightening, empowering, and every other 'ing' in the book.

I hear a genuine desire in you to grow and learn. Read the stories here, check out the resources, and keep us posted. Let us know how we can help!

pj

[Levi Love]

Maybe I'm going out on a limb here, but could God/religion be a substitute for an absent husband to your bpd mom? It seems like an extra added layer of mom control issues for you since it's coming from her. Not sure your dad was around during your formative years.

I was raised Catholic - went in and out of atheism in college and 20s but have remained Catholic for 25 straight years. Practicing religion is difficult with a normal upbringing.

Take your time to think about what you want to do here, would be my suggestion, taking headstrong mom's reaction into account. My mother is headstrong and stubborn, too. In my church, God is not headstrong and stubborn. He's gentle, kind and understanding. He likes to be talked to. He likes to be asked for courage and wisdom.   

I want to thank you all for your honest posts.  I read them all to this point, and I just want to lay my naked thoughts as I read. 

I am the husband of someone I love with BDP separated now for over a year.  I am a single dad of a 15 yr. son from my prior marriage.  I have codependent traits and getting counseling and going to support groups.  Being secure in my faith in JESUS Christ (not a church necessarily)  is my bedrock foundation from which I build my entire battle fortress to combat mental & emotional in my home (figurative).  LOVE NEVER FAILS.   I combine that with much "non-religious" reading & research & support groups dealing with codependent & BDP.

That being said, my role as a father to my 15 yr. old son is becoming difficult for many reasons including our home missing a most important member (the love of my life, wife), and also him just being a teenager among other things.  A-B student, great athlete, plays piano for fun (and our church).

HERE IS WHERE I GET NAKED:

I DON'T WANT TO BE THE TYPE OF DAD THAT SNUFFS THE PROCESS OF HIM DISCOVERING HIMSELF AND HIS OWN RELATIONSHIP WITH GOD.

 
We do 1on1 bible study when we can, and I try respect that that is not the most fun for him.  I refer a lot to scripture during life lessons in good measure (in my head).  I desire him to have the same bedrock foundation I have as a 52 yr. old...LOL.  I love him, he is the best I could ever dream of having.

However, reading your posts and realizing I am lonely for my wife (who moved out) and for a complete home again, I feel more sensitive to overwhelming him with my relationship with GOD.   I know mental/emotional issues & Church/GOD are very very COMPLEX no question.  I believe the American church has a long way to go when it comes to dealing with mental & emotional health.  Change starts with ME.
DAY BY DAY, STEP BY STEP.


Thanks again, for your posts.  Thanks TelHill.

[formflier]

Hey...thanks for the thoughtful and open post, for sharing that which matters greatly to you!   

I'm a Dad of 8 and my wife (BPDish) used to use scripture to control and dominate.  So I've had lots of sorting out to do to figure out my role and the role of God.

Here's where I'm at.

Axioms:

1.  We know we don't save our children.
2.  We know that God understands we are imperfect, therefor his "plan" would not get messed up because we are "imperfect".
3.  We know scripture is one of many ways God can tug on the heartstrings of humans and call them to him.

Therefore:

I've take it upon myself to make sure my kids get a good "Christian Education", but I don't focus on them experiencing faith exactly as I do.

I am very open about how I see things, process scripture and all that...but I'm even more clear that a person's relationship with Jesus is an individual thing...so don't be surprised if theirs or someone else's looks different.

Anyway..solid work with 1 on 1 Bible study.  Keep it up.  When I use scripture with my kids I normally ask way more questions and give very few answers.  Best they pray and search for their own interpretation.

Best,

FF

[Ramhorn]

I am going to throw my hat into this ring; middle millennial adult child, uBPD/NPD Dad, both my parents accepted Jesus when I was 4, chosen child-emotional centered.

I definitely echo what was said previously; it sounds like your mom was using Jesus as her vehicle into enmeshment. The story you got was the rationalization, the lie she sold herself because she couldn’t see the sin.

Being a first generation Christian, I have had to do a lot of reworking weird theology. My mom fell into “better safe than sorry” mode and so my siblings and I rode the Christian cultural wave of what was ok and not ok to be exposing your kids to. We were super active in the church and it definitely fed my dads ego while giving my mom a break. The problem is a grew up with a messed up dad, who “loved unconditionally” but really sucked everything from you. So teach me that God hates sin, and I’m a sinner, but he sacrificed everything for me. And now we’re off. Needless to say, as soon as my shame reached critical mass, I ran away from God as hard as I could. So during high school, I did all the “wrong” things. God showed me that Jonah still makes sense. Like he knew that I needed that to learn that the lowest in God’s kingdom are living better than me. God’s provision for you and your children is not dependent on your actions.  And their life circumstances are marginally affected by your actions. Look at the blind man in Luke, it wasn’t his or his parents sin that made him blind. He was blind so Jesus could heal him and teach us this lesson. Like God’s glory, your (child’s) purpose, is not going to change based on sin. I don’t see that anywhere in the Bible.

Tl;dr - No matter what you think, God is going to be God. He will provide for your (his) children, regardless of your actions. Rocks and trees crying out.  Like you’re the parent but the buck doesn’t stop with you. Humble yourself. Know that you’re not supposed to protect them. You’re there to support, so when/if they fall (into sin), it doesn’t kill them. 

Now for what to do going forward. When you’re with God, keep your eyes open. Reading the Bible, prayer and meditation, worship, etc. Look for the things that seem strange and don’t make sense. Sit with those things. Pray around them. Then go to the Bible, what is said. If your picture of God is off, he will show you. The end of Romans 8, the spirit is asking for the stuff we don’t know we need yet. Stay humble through the process.  That doesn’t mean think less of yourself. It means don’t trust your brain. If you don’t want to question that area of theology, that is probably needing the most attention.  Or at least that’s how I have experienced God.

Do you have an idea of where you think your picture is distorted? Taking mom out, what are the inconsistencies that you see in your faith? Like where are the big question marks, or where is the “bible says this but...” in your relationship with God? (Those aren’t all real questions, just a bunch of attempts to communicate a quandary. That is all one question, sorry.)

I really appreciate this thread. It’s alway nice when you see you’re not alone in the fight.  So, thanks everybody.

Keep Grinding.

[Imatter33]

I've take it upon myself to make sure my kids get a good "Christian Education", but I don't focus on them experiencing faith exactly as I do.

It struck me how this sentence is healthy. The exact opposite of what I was exposed to in my adult life.  In a nutshell, choice. A mentally healthy person understands that children do not need to experience faith just like their parents.

 I am understanding more and more how BPD is a condition of interpersonal identity crisis, and a desperate need for control. It just so happens that my mother desperately wants to control how she "does a relationship" with God. , A relationship with God is inherently more safe than  relationship with a human being because she can't hurt God's feelings. Plus God never leaves or forsakes, lessening her fear of abandonment.

In typing that sentence,  I do believe it helps me actually take compassion on my mother. I understand  why she relates to God the way that she does. Her tendency is to preach, is to condemn how other people experience Jesus, and to think that only her Pastor is holy.
I suppose the BPD comes in because of course she would irrationally defend her version of God because she's not in any other significant and loving relationship. And she can have her point of view. I just am not participating in it.

 Taking mom out, what are the inconsistencies that you see in your faith? Like where are the big question marks, or where is the “bible says this but...” in your relationship with God?

That is such a good question, and honestly its like we have unearthed this core question after processing my moms stuff. I have many most likely but I never understood why my mom cried so often about a relationship with God. I don't think she understands God is love. And that your salvation cannot be lost. And that even if there are imperfect christians at church, there is grace and community that we should feel free to commune with.

Like Telhill mentioned,


God is not headstrong and stubborn. He's gentle, kind and understanding. He likes to be talked to. He likes to be asked for courage and wisdom.

A gentle kind and understanding God is a fairly new concept to be honest.

[pursuingJoy]

I've enjoyed reading this thread. As many do, I equated my dad with my understanding of God. It was hard to differentiate between my dad's narcissistic 'worship me' from God's 'worship me.' One day it occurred to me that they handled power differently. Dad took away my power (abuse), God empowered me. I keep coming back to that.

In case you're interested, I found "Bold Love" by Dan Allender very helpful to understanding how boundaries, healthy relationships and genuine faith intertwine.

Once Removed and FaithHopeLove have also read and recommend "Boundaries" by Cloud and Townsend.

Here's to 'working out our faith.'
pj

[Imatter33]

One day it occurred to me that they handled power differently. Dad took away my power (abuse), God empowered me. I keep coming back to that.

Amen sister.

Because I feel like I have been working double time to understand BPD and that specific relationship, I keep noticing that the work of boundaries is everywhere, even needed with people who are more mentally stable. We all love the person in our life with BPD, and they put the neon sign ON with boundaries, but is anyone else realizing the work they do here is echoing into all facets of life and "other" relationships?

Guys, I did not have one healthy boundary to speak of, in any relationship! I truly believe this.
WHOA.


Note to my new self:  Just you wait. I'm gonna do this.

I am going to pray:
Heavenly Father,
I give my mother to you. I surrender my need to fix. I ask you to work on softening my heart towards the hurt and confusion that is underlying my personal relationship with you as my Lord and Savior.
I trust that you have brought me here today and I am thankful.
I thank you for the Grace to continue, to seek answers and to forgive.

Show me the way you'd have me go.
Amen.

Thanks all.