Can't quite put my finger on it—Part 5

[How to communicate after a contentious divorce...]

This is a continuation of a previous thread:
https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=340987.30
Morning all, apologies for the delay, you all seem to have been working very hard on my behalf for which I am massively appreciative. I think there's a couple of things that need to be cleared up, firstly there been a few people mentioning codependancy, I've looked at codependancy extensively and it was one of a few reasons I found BPD in the first place. I don't identify myself as co-dependant nor do I fear being on my own in the slightest. I did fear 'different' mainly because I'm a slow and steady purposeful guy who doesn't willingly turn the proverbial boat around (I leave the constant direction changes to my W). I definitely do not fear 'alone' or doubt my ability to find 'other'. Secondly, I say a lot because I'm open, I want to give detail because I think detail matters to get clarity. I also don't want to hide behind lack of detail. I apologise for rambling.

Skip, I see what you are pointing at but I am also believe that FF has encapsulated my thoughts well. I'm not sure when I said that I was using the discussions about telling the kids as a threat or a way of keeping my W in the marriage, in fact I was reflecting about this on the way to work and actually if anything me genuinely pushing to tell the kids is effectively pushing her out of the metaphorical cage. At the moment we are in a stalemate of comfort where she is able to do a lot of divorce 'work' in the shadows, the divorce operates in fantasy land. The real world is where things change, kids are told, people move out, people she cares about get hurt... by her choices. My W would like to delay fantasy and reality merging as long as possible. My intended message to her is that I am not afraid of the divorce; that BECAUSE a divorce IS happening (and all their friends know that a divorce IS happening), the children need to know. Secondly, I believe that people should be accountable for choices. I don't see being accountable for choices as being right or wrong, good or bad. My children may initially see that choice as wrong or bad, they may not... BUT, this is not a 'we' decision. If my W feels it is in the children's best interests to explain why she is making that choice then I will have to be accountable for myself to my children... which I will be more than happy to do. My W wants to share the heavy burden of guilt she has, for choosing to divorce, I am unwilling to accept her burden. Sweetheart seems to also advocate for telling the truth and made herself accountable for her choice, one might also conclude she blamed her husband suggesting his behaviours were not acceptable for either her or her son to live with. Her reasoning for this being that her son could see what was going on. My kids can see what is going on as well (ex the affair probably), anything but the truth would be a lie and also would be counterproductive for sedating the children's desire to match what they see and know with what they are being told. Clearly I cannot force my W to say anything she doesn't want to say, and being conscious of the longer term objectives and life after this event have to be balanced.

The position I find myself in now is that I have been reasonable, not passive and stonewalling (I've not derailed or formally objected to the D), not aggressive and proactive (I've not kicked her out, I haven't pushed the D through), but I have shown reasonable resistance to reasonable things... YET... I have not found any hill I'm prepared to die on. One camp might suggest I'm codependant because I haven't done what I consider to be the secular response of being proactive, getting out of there, give her the guilt free divorce she needs and get on with finding "happiness", and the other camp might consider me being codependant or having flaky values because I'm not prepared to die on a hill for specific issues. My W has been banishing around a metaphorical pistol for the the last 23 years, holding it to my head, threatening me with divorce, telling me I'm bad etc etc... at what point do I put the gun in my mouth and say "pull the trigger! DOO IT!"? At some point I have to take that risk, at some point I have to seriously front this out to end the cycle. Yes I have stopped her doing things like selling the house before either of us had the financial protection of the legal process, yes I have questioned some of the twisted thoughts she had about financials but I don't feel that I have actually put the gun in my mouth, tasted the steel and told her to use it or lose it. Skip you talk about the long game, co-parenting, house sharing, this is great but requires boundaries, it requires boundaries to prevent my W nibbling into me, dancing on my front lawn. At the moment she wants her cake and eat it, at some point that needs to stop else we will just end up with the same situation we have now but living in 2 separate homes.

As a final thought, what is more damaging to a child? Knowing that their mother will knowingly do selfish things that detrimentally impact them; or continuing to believe that their mother is not selfish and will not do things knowing they will be detrimentally impact them, yet experiencing detrimental impacts caused by their mothers choices... which she does not acknowledge are her choices?

Enabler    

[Enabler]

This is a continuation of a previous thread:
https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=340987.30
Morning all, apologies for the delay, you all seem to have been working very hard on my behalf for which I am massively appreciative. I think there's a couple of things that need to be cleared up, firstly there been a few people mentioning codependancy, I've looked at codependancy extensively and it was one of a few reasons I found BPD in the first place. I don't identify myself as co-dependant nor do I fear being on my own in the slightest. I did fear 'different' mainly because I'm a slow and steady purposeful guy who doesn't willingly turn the proverbial boat around (I leave the constant direction changes to my W). I definitely do not fear 'alone' or doubt my ability to find 'other'. Secondly, I say a lot because I'm open, I want to give detail because I think detail matters to get clarity. I also don't want to hide behind lack of detail. I apologise for rambling.

Skip, I see what you are pointing at but I am also believe that FF has encapsulated my thoughts well. I'm not sure when I said that I was using the discussions about telling the kids as a threat or a way of keeping my W in the marriage, in fact I was reflecting about this on the way to work and actually if anything me genuinely pushing to tell the kids is effectively pushing her out of the metaphorical cage. At the moment we are in a stalemate of comfort where she is able to do a lot of divorce 'work' in the shadows, the divorce operates in fantasy land. The real world is where things change, kids are told, people move out, people she cares about get hurt... by her choices. My W would like to delay fantasy and reality merging as long as possible. My intended message to her is that I am not afraid of the divorce; that BECAUSE a divorce IS happening (and all their friends know that a divorce IS happening), the children need to know. Secondly, I believe that people should be accountable for choices. I don't see being accountable for choices as being right or wrong, good or bad. My children may initially see that choice as wrong or bad, they may not... BUT, this is not a 'we' decision. If my W feels it is in the children's best interests to explain why she is making that choice then I will have to be accountable for myself to my children... which I will be more than happy to do. My W wants to share the heavy burden of guilt she has, for choosing to divorce, I am unwilling to accept her burden. Sweetheart seems to also advocate for telling the truth and made herself accountable for her choice, one might also conclude she blamed her husband suggesting his behaviours were not acceptable for either her or her son to live with. Her reasoning for this being that her son could see what was going on. My kids can see what is going on as well (ex the affair probably), anything but the truth would be a lie and also would be counterproductive for sedating the children's desire to match what they see and know with what they are being told. Clearly I cannot force my W to say anything she doesn't want to say, and being conscious of the longer term objectives and life after this event have to be balanced.

The position I find myself in now is that I have been reasonable, not passive and stonewalling (I've not derailed or formally objected to the D), not aggressive and proactive (I've not kicked her out, I haven't pushed the D through), but I have shown reasonable resistance to reasonable things... YET... I have not found any hill I'm prepared to die on. One camp might suggest I'm codependant because I haven't done what I consider to be the secular response of being proactive, getting out of there, give her the guilt free divorce she needs and get on with finding "happiness", and the other camp might consider me being codependant or having flaky values because I'm not prepared to die on a hill for specific issues. My W has been banishing around a metaphorical pistol for the the last 23 years, holding it to my head, threatening me with divorce, telling me I'm bad etc etc... at what point do I put the gun in my mouth and say "pull the trigger! DOO IT!"? At some point I have to take that risk, at some point I have to seriously front this out to end the cycle. Yes I have stopped her doing things like selling the house before either of us had the financial protection of the legal process, yes I have questioned some of the twisted thoughts she had about financials but I don't feel that I have actually put the gun in my mouth, tasted the steel and told her to use it or lose it. Skip you talk about the long game, co-parenting, house sharing, this is great but requires boundaries, it requires boundaries to prevent my W nibbling into me, dancing on my front lawn. At the moment she wants her cake and eat it, at some point that needs to stop else we will just end up with the same situation we have now but living in 2 separate homes.

As a final thought, what is more damaging to a child? Knowing that their mother will knowingly do selfish things that detrimentally impact them; or continuing to believe that their mother is not selfish and will not do things knowing they will be detrimentally impact them, yet experiencing detrimental impacts caused by their mothers choices... which she does not acknowledge are her choices?

Enabler    

[sweetheart]

Enabler your final paragraph question...for me they are both as damaging but just in different ways. Damage is damage, whether it is immediate or long term. Whether it is felt or seen or just sensed in an atmosphere. Damage is both direct and indirect.

For me it’s how I manage the extent, impact, direction, understanding of the behaviours that are causing the emotional  damage to my child.

If by ‘blame’ you mean that I held my husband directly responsible for the consequences of his behaviour by asking him to leave, then yes I did.  I also take my share of the blame in allowing the dysfunction to continue way too long.

[Skip]

Skip you talk about the long game, co-parenting, house sharing, this is great but requires boundaries, it requires boundaries to prevent my W nibbling into me, dancing on my front lawn. At the moment she wants her cake and eat it, at some point that needs to stop else we will just end up with the same situation we have now but living in 2 separate homes.

The "boundaries" in divorce are the custody order, right?

What pre-divorce boundaries are you thinking about that are per-requisite to divorce?

[Enabler]

For me it’s how I manage the extent, impact, direction, understanding of the behaviours that are causing the emotional  damage to my child.

For me, lies, deceit and manipulation of reality are the cornerstones of my W's abusive behaviours, and as I see the situation at the moment, the most likely thing to emotionally damage the children in the long run. It's the very foundations of how she manages to make you feel guilty for her over consumption of resources and holistic inconsiderate behaviour.  I agree that both are damaging, so is it not better to rest on the value of being truthful rather than trying to tell a lie in the hope that time makes things less damaging or more palatable?

Enabler...if you could tell a public lie (about something substantial that would likely eventually be found out) to your family...yet there would be healing in your family.

In answer to FF's question, I have told public lies to my family and they have been found out and things were worse, I have learnt by experience that telling the truth and dealing with the consequences rather than hoping time will ferment the truth doesn't work.

I would like it to be made clear that I am not asking my W to take the blame for the disintegration of our marriage, I would like my W to be accountable for the choice to get divorce. There is a huge difference. I am more than happy to make myself accountable for my role in the disintegration of our relationship which has led to my wife's CHOICE to remedy that problem with dissolution of our marriage. I would have chosen other options. She would argue that due to the disintegration of our relationship she has no choice other than to seek a divorce, I do not believe this to be the truth.

Enabler

[Enabler]

The "boundaries" in divorce are the custody order, right?

You and I both know this is not the case with a person with BPD, hence even those with robust custody orders in place still struggle on an ongoing basis with their ex partners, and regularly have to place other boundaries around the custody order in order to have a functioning relationship with their children, and drama free life.

A small taster, my W suggested that I would come over to hers to babysit the kids post divorce (to increase access with children post divorce, she is keen for me to maximise access)... how does this fit with me being "emotionally and verbally abusive to her and the kids", and "a real and apparent threat to her safety", so much so that she feels morally empowered by God to get a divorce? Or is that just an extension of her not wanting to face the realities of divorce and the impact that might have on HER social life?

What will happen when she can't financially plan and comes asking for more money under the pretence of children impoverished... "you wouldn't want to harm the kids would you?" These are probable outcomes. As I said above, lies are the corner stone of her abuse, she lies to others, she lies to me, she lies to herself... I can no longer endorse the lies.

Enabler

[Notwendy]

To clarify- I'm not advocating for a "secular" decision. My point was to not enable her carefree dating - not being the one to clean up, be available to watch the kids all the time- so it isn't all "fantasy" land. While I wasn't interested in anything like dating when my kids were younger, just going out to do anything in the evening was difficult- kids had activities, homework. Sometimes some female friends would want to get together for dinner, "girls night out" and I rarely got to do this as a parent. And if I don't do the dishes, they are still there to do later.

If my H and I wanted to have a "date" - then we had to arrange for a sitter. So to me, ( morals aside) it's unrealistic to be able to just go out like single people when one is married with children. Your wife and OM are in a sort of responsibility free romance and so it perpetuates their fantasy. It would seem to me that if there was a chance for them to see the reality of a relationship with each other, it might not (or might) look so great.

As to your last question- which is better for the kids? My own mother is very selfish. Over the years, getting to know her as an adult, it's actually been a shock to me to see this. One huge shock to me was realizing that she lies to me. I had given her the benefit of the doubt- my own mother wouldn't do this to me. But she does and it is a shock to realize the extent of her selfishness.

But at what point could I have handled this information? My mother is seriously mentally ill- some of the behaviors I saw growing up were shocking actually and not appropriate. Still, I was expected to accept them, not tell anyone about them and pretend she was a normal mother. I can't imagine being told the truth before I could even process it though. By my teens though, I knew there had to be something going on. By late teens I was trying to read about psychology and asking my Dad questions. I wanted to know what was going on.

As to adultery- I didn't even understand romantic relationships as a child or young teen. I couldn't have processed much information. But BPD mother would confide in me and tell me way TMI. Sometimes she would paint my father black to me, but I could see the picture. I knew who the reliable parent was, and even though my parents didn't admit to my mother's issues, I figured things out. Not the whole BPD thing.

That's just my own experience. I think being truthful is important, but not more than a child can handle.

Maybe that's the clue- are your kids asking.

[Notwendy]

you talk about the long game, co-parenting, house sharing, this is great but requires boundaries, it requires boundaries to prevent my W nibbling into me, dancing on my front lawn. At the moment she wants her cake and eat it, at some point that needs to stop else we will just end up with the same situation we have now but living in 2 separate homes.


I think this is the heart of it- boundaries. Whether you stay married or not. You will remain in some relationship with her either way.

But the boundary keeping is on you, Enabler, you know that. I understand it is tough, my mother is tough. Trying to manage boundaries with her is a challenge and this also has helped me to understand my father's situation. My mother also pushes at boundaries. I think I can see this aspect to your relationship because my mother has not had to take on the regular responsibilities of parenthood or domestic work. My father did a lot of that.

I've seen the results. She's extremely unhappy. I think not having responsibilities or boundaries contributes to that. It's the same idea as not spoiling kids or giving them age appropriate household tasks. My mother isn't accountable to anyone. This actually was a positive learning experience for me growing up. One assumes this kind of thing would be nice- do what you want to do, but I knew it was a recipe for discontent.

Another one is attachment. Kids are attached to their caregivers. It's a bonding experience. I am not emotionally attached to my mother in that way. I was with my father.

Basically, your wife will make her own relationship with the kids. Selfishness and lying doesn't create a close bond. This will happen without you saying anything.

Having a boundary with her is a struggle. She can be relentless. I can understand just giving in to keep the peace. I did this in my marriage. It resulted in me being unhappy and resentful. It's a short term solution but not a long term one.


My first steps to boundaries involved saying "no" and being able to tolerate the response/extinction burst- and that is difficult, but if you want to do it, you need to start somewhere. One suggestion is if wife wants to go out to "church" in the evenings. ( church with OM and out afterwards basically) and you say " I have a meeting Wednesday night and won't be available to watch the kids"- and she's left to deal with that. Your meeting might be going out for coffee by yourself- just don't be the available sitter. If you can't do this boundary- pick another one.

[Enabler]

One suggestion is if wife wants to go out to "church" in the evenings. ( church with OM and out afterwards basically) and you say " I have a meeting Wednesday night and won't be available to watch the kids"- and she's left to deal with that. Your meeting might be going out for coffee by yourself- just don't be the available sitter. If you can't do this boundary- pick another one.

She'd then get her parents to sit (even more Enabling than me) or a babysitter (paying for it with money she doesn't have)... and if I didn't give her the funds she'd believe I was financially abusive. She is relentless in her quest and will find a solution to do what she wants... why, because she doesn't see it as want (or anything that might stimulate the response of being reasonable), she see's it as a need. Imagine if when you said 'no' to your mother she claimed you were abusive towards her, and told all her friends so, and they believed that you were capable of abuse because she'd been telling them for years how horrible you were... now imagine if that was your spouse and the world was tilted in such a manor that they would have almost default control over your kids, your social network, a large swathe of the families personal wealth... and there were almost zero repercussions to making such false claims about you. Now it's not even about being a victim, or codependancy, it's about the fact that someone has a very real, very big bullet in a very big gun pointed at your head, and I have a choice whether or not to play a game of chicken (or not) with her.

I don't mean to sound evasive or not solution orientated, it's just that it's a struggle to 'whack a mole' when you're life is so enmeshed because the mole just pops up somewhere else. I hope you see where I'm coming from.

[Notwendy]

Imagine if when you said 'no' to your mother she claimed you were abusive towards her, and told all her friends so, and they believed that you were capable of abuse because she'd been telling them for years how horrible you were...

This is exactly what happened. She turned my father against me- told him so many lies that he was angry and hateful to me when he died. Her family and friends stopped speaking to me for many years. It was devastating.


now imagine if that was your spouse and the world was tilted in such a manor that they would have almost default control over your kids, your social network, a large swathe of the families personal wealth... and there were almost zero repercussions to making such false claims about you.

Thankfully, my spouse would not do that, so I am not in your shoes, but this kind of thing isn't uncommon and it is discussed on the legal board. I think this is where people take legal action for this kind of thing, careful documentation. Also the kids can speak for themselves and after a certain age, I think authorities would ask them. I know that if someone had asked me what was going on at age 11, they'd get an earful.

I do know one thing, that as long as I was in fear of my mother's repercussions, she had power over me and she abused that power. I was hugely afraid of losing my father's approval and this is what happened. After that, I had to do some work on myself to deal with that. It was that fear that kept me from having boundaries with her.

I think there's a cost to setting boundaries and yet, there is also a cost to not setting them. Sometimes it is the fear that keeps us in this seemingly powerless situation. Although I am not in your situation with a spouse, if I wanted to make changes, I think I would consult a lawyer about how to protect myself against these false claims.

It's also about choosing your losses. Yes, it hurt my feelings to have my mother's family refuse to speak to me, but then how invested could they be in a relationship to let it go like that? Is this worth my own emotional investment? Is a social circle an irreparable loss? What I did find is that truth can prevail sometimes. I think over time, these relatives saw enough about my mother to question her lies.

A lawyer can help you with custody and control over the kids. That, and finances can be negotiated. You can arrange to pay for large costs like college, or music lessons directly. If wife comes to you "for the children" that can be worked out. Yes, financially this can drain you. It's also a calculated loss. Your money or this constant living in fear of losing it.

As to getting a sitter- is it wrong to have her parents babysit? Unless they are abusive to the kids, seems like an OK arrangement to me. Or pay a sitter. Either way- she has to take the steps to arrange for the kids- and you don't do it for her, thus enabling her affair. When we hand the issue to someone to solve for themselves, we don't get to control how they do it. In this situation, I'd step in if it wasn't safe for the kids but otherwise, it's the idea of having her be responsible for her own night out.

You aren't going to change her thinking no matter what you do. But by not being always available to take care of the kids while she goes out with OM, you are making a change in the dynamics.

This is behind my cost/payoff posts. Only you can make this choice.

[sweetheart]

What does custody look like for you and your wife?
Can you go for 50/50?

I don’t know your situation well enough to know what is possible.

What do you want custody wise?

[Enabler]

50/50 custody has been verbally agreed. With regards to living arrangements my back stop is every other weekend. I leave for work at 6am (5am once a week) and get back around 18:30 (17:30 once a week). The practicalities of picking them up from school and dropping them there are just impossible unless I was to hire outside help which is a challenge for a 5am start (not least very disruptive to their sleep). I do not want to over promise and under deliver. My occupation is well paid but not mega mega bucks and I have little option out of the niche I'm in to earn similar money without a lengthy commute. Access to the children midweek would have to be facilitated by my Mum coming to stay and doing drop off and pick up... or by me being able to work from home (which is currently not allowed for my particular function... so would require a change of compliance rules). I am by order of magnitude the breadwinner of the family thus everyone is reliant on my income... so I am somewhat trapped there. Other visitation midweek would be adhoc and for a couple of hours as my youngest goes to bed around 6. I have vocalised that I will not be looking after the children around her home as it makes a complete mockery of her reasoning for getting a divorce in the first place, added to which I would feel particularly going into the home she's setting up with someone new... that just feels weird on many many levels.

I would also arrange to have all 5 weeks holiday on a fixed agenda and rotation of bank holiday weekends.

A recent conversation I had with my W on the topic:

Enabler - When will we see Daddy – Every other weekend and lots of the school holidays

Enabler W - And multiple times during the week. Again, if you want to put the kids at the centre you can arrange to see them in the week – have them for tea, stay over and take them to school/ your mum/a childminder take them to school. If you choose not to do this then that’s up to you, but other people with much more complicated jobs and commutes living in greater proximity to their children manage this, so it’s really up to you. Whatever you choose we again need to stand in solidarity. It wouldn’t help for example if I was to say or imply that you are choosing to only see them on the weekend, which I would never contemplate doing.

Enabler -  Please could you give me an example of the ‘other people with much more complicated jobs and commutes living in greater proximity to their children manage this,’ the last example (Nigel) you gave me who “leaves the same time as you” actually catches the 08:10 train…. Which is a vastly different proposition. Please don’t minimise the logistic challenges seeing the children midweek will pose. I am very sure that I will be able to do some of the things you have mentioned above, however, I am also very cognisant of promising things that I cannot deliver. The girls have an enormous amount of trust in my word and know that when I say I will do something I will crawl over coals to achieve it for them. You’re welcome to try and say comments such as that but I fear they are rational enough to not believe that is true. Having a house with capacity for a spare bedroom for Mum to sleep in is unrealistic however I will do my utmost to facilitate them being with me whenever they wish.

She trivialises the logistical impossibility of sustaining the job (that provides her income) I do with my ability to offer the flexibility required for regular midweek access to the kids.

If she offered for me to take the kids full time (which I would willingly do) and to not pay child support I could hire in services for less money than I would pay her for CSA... but that's definitely not on the table.

Enabler

[Enabler]

As and when the children grow old they would have the option to live with me should they choose to. Unless my W decides to move I plan on living very locally.

[sweetheart]

Actually your plan sounds good and viable.
Meet your w where she’s at, involve your mum if this is really possible for midweek contact.
 This I think would be great for the kids. They would still have some time with you mid week. You would be home eventually, and they would have regular contact with  their Grandma.


How much help would your mum be willing to give on a regular basis? Is this a real possibility?
Also more contact means reduced child support, which is good for you.

I suppose I’m also thinking that the more time the children spend with a parent who is stable and constant the better for them. For me Extended family contact is a real positive too.

[sweetheart]

Enabler the highlighted paragraph that is your response to your wife. Stop it, it’s a mess of JADE. You just don’t need to do this! Really you don’t.

Pull out the salient, concise points that you REALLY need to focus on and bullet point them.

So your plan for custody is the following:-

A
B
C

or
1
2
3

Less is more for pwBPD. I know that less is more is not your preferred style of responding   , but try it here and we can help you edit it.

[Enabler]

My mum would offer as much help as I asked for, in fact she’d probably move in if I asked her to... but I’d rather saw my foot off with a rusty butter knife, we’re very different people.

Regarding the words, I don’t know whether my W likes lots of words or few words, you’re damned either way so I go with clarity, and clarity to me means details examples and specifics. Lack of clarity and lack of specifics leaves loopholes which she always manages to find.

[Enabler]

So having contacted the T's my T suggested who specialised in this kind of D and communicating with children, the best lady (who comes recommended by the second best lady) isn't available till 18th Dec. Since I want to do this right (although part of 'right' feels like it should include 'urgently') it looks like no discussions will commence till after Christmas/New Year. This is disappointing, but having spoken to both recommended T's they seem to be under the impression that the kids likely know but have found ways of coping with knowing but not talking about it. I'm not so sure but then I'm not an expert in how children might know yet ask questions that suggest they don't know.

Interestingly both T's have suggested they would like private intro sessions with myself and my W... I'm not sure my W will be up for this.

Seeing a T to discuss this would also be a good opportunity to discuss the 'Child Order' (part of the divorce should I elect to have one (which I will), and I have stated in email that I am not prepared to sign the financial order until the child order is in place and agreed at the same time.

Enabler

[Skip]

Enabler, in reading this 138 post thread series (most of which were very long and thoughtful posts), I'd be remiss in not noting that you have brought the discussion back full circle to where you started. You have strongly defended your positions, been upset (but handling it well) by people probing other options, and it seems that you are even more entrenched in thinking then when this started.

This is the embodiment of being conflicted, defeated. You are not the first or the last on this board to be in this position. But know that a lot of your reasoning resembles learned helplessness... and there are depressive thought patterns at play.  And know that these thinking patterns can make divorces long and painful and destructive.

It's a lot easier to see it in others than in ourselves. The same was true of me when I was in your boat.

So having contacted the T's [my therapist, her therapist], my T [therapist] suggested who specialised in this kind of D [divorce] and communicating with children, the best lady (who comes recommended by the second best lady) isn't available till 18th Dec. Since I want to do this right (although part of 'right' feels like it should include 'urgently') it looks like no discussions will commence till after Christmas/New Year.

I think it is good that you are reaching out for help... and even more important, it will be good for drop you hands and put everything on the table to be rethought. Get completely out of your box.

What you face is awful - but it is not unique. It's a bad situation and there is a huge cost to correct it - just like there is a huge cost to heart surgery. It's understandable that you don't want to face the recovery process. It's understandable that you went the extra mile - had extreme patience.

Seeking another therapist and additional expert opinion is good as long:

• your are not looking for a resource that will agree with you more than the current resources

• your therapist is frustrated and moving you on to somone one else handle this subject

I don't mean to sound evasive or not solution orientated, it's just that it's a struggle to 'whack a mole' when you're life is so enmeshed because the mole just pops up somewhere else. I hope you see where I'm coming from.

What have you heard in all of this long dialogue?

[Enabler]

Seeking another therapist and additional expert opinion is good as long:

• your are not looking for a resource that will agree with you more than the current resources

• your therapist is frustrated and moving you on to somone one else handle this subject

I'm not sure what you mean?

I’m not looking for another resource (T) to agree with me, In fact similarly to many of you, my guess is that she will disagree with me, I don’t know and it warrants discussion. The Independent T was my wife’s suggestion along with other options like the legal mediator or a home-school link support person from one of the kids schools (they both pointed towards independent counsellors). There is no way my W would take the advice of my T... she thinks he's rubbish because he can't see how disturbed I am!

My T advocates my approach with my divorce. You are correct, we have ended up full circle and no, no one has convinced me that my thoughts on telling the children are out of line. Being disappointed that the optimal T is on holiday in S Africa is defeatist either. I wonder sometimes whether or not people confuse my ability to hold multiple plausible outcomes on the table and be somewhat comfortable with them, as being conflicted. I don’t see it that way, I just see a bunch of outcomes and a bunch of different routes to getting there and positive and negative payoffs.

I’m an options trader as you know, I can’t tell you where the stock market is going to go, as much as I can’t tell how my W will behave. Some may be able to tell you with some degree of certainty where the market will go some of the time, but only a fool will tell you he knows where it’s going to go all the time. Some of the finest traders I have seen are not those who make huge directional bets, but those who are agnostic to market direction and are outcome focused. When I say outcome focused, I don’t mean the outcome I want, I mean all potential outcomes most of which are not in my control... and I don’t necessarily need control. I am not helpless, neither is an options trader. Just like the trader I can make moves, assert myself in certain positions and be passive in others. Had I taken some huge directional bet, attempted to ‘take control’ several years ago I’m pretty confident I would be in a world of pain now, ignorant to the all to present high probability risks evolving from the fallout.

I have no doubts that this current situation is painful for my W... but who is responsible for that pain? Me? I don't think so. Remember she could have chosen to complete the legal process when it was initially started in Oct17. She is entirely responsible for the delays. Regardless of any of the 'moves' I have made she could have unilaterally decided to move the D on without the 6m delays with no action, no communication, no nothing. As I concluded after assessing your 3 points earlier on in the thread I see me being at home with the kids as net net positive for their flourishing. My own existence isn't optimal, but I wouldn't call it terrible, because I don't allow it to be terrible. The only person this is truly painful for is my W... and although this is not my aim or malicious plan, I will not rescue her from the pain and suffering she is experiencing from her own choices, I've spent too many years doing that. Some, including myself have argued that she is having her cake and eating it, but frankly I don't think she takes any joy in any of it, even the affair. She called me controlling, I allowed her to take full control of herself and the direction of the relationship... this is the outcome for her!

Do you  suggest I should take control again?

Enabler

 

[sweetheart]

I went back and had a look at your OP and the initial question arising out of that:— What is making my wife behave as she is around the divorce process?

Did the replies answer your question, what more do you understand now than you did before asking about her processes?

For me with regards to the children, following the lead from the T’s involved, on what pace and how to frame what you say around what is happening is the right way to approach things for them.


What made you ask about ‘taking control again’ at the end of your reply?

[Enabler]

Did the replies answer your question, what more do you understand now than you did before asking about her processes?

Gems probably came closest to giving me possible insight into what appears to be procrastination quite early on.

What made you ask about ‘taking control again’ at the end of your reply?

It seemed to me that the majority of board members believe that me taking control by determining my path towards 1 outcome rather than gaining contentment in a range of outcomes and allowing my wife to control which one of those outcomes is possible is the way forwards. I see this way of thinking about the situation ineffective since the outcome I want (and have always wanted and have NEVER EVER been conflicted about) is improbable. I can't find myself wanting something that neither fits with my values nor something that doesn't work in the long term. The board seems to be pushing me towards taking some of the improbable outcomes (which might actually be the ones I would choose), in favour of focusing on outcomes I prefer less and align less with my values.

I think the board underestimates my ability to make the best of the choices my W might make. for example, some may view the last 3 years of my behaviour a waste of time where I could have been pursuing my own personal happiness, however, I don't. I think back to my relationship with the kids in 2017 and see how tarnished it was by the chaos in my relationship with my W. I now have a vastly different relationship with the kids, mostly attributable to my change and my daily interaction with them. I place the probability of my W's ability to parental alienate far far far lower now than I would have back then. Yes, this has resulted in a longer more protracted divorce and some discomfort for my W as I no longer joined her on her emotional roller coaster every day... but my outcome for me and the kids was nonetheless positive. I have also learnt a lot about my wife during this period.

I suppose you could say that I took control when I decided to stay regardless of her desire for me to leave.

Enabler 

[Notwendy]

Moving you towards taking charge of a divorce process wasn't my suggestion. In fact, what I suggested was taking steps to change the dynamics in your relationship- which may have been a chance to move it in the direction you want.

My premise is that there's an appeal to a romance that seemingly has no consequences or responsibilities- (other than possible guilt you wife may or may not feel). My suggestion was to not continue to facilitate this- by being available to watch the kids, clean up, while she and OM go out.

But there hasn't seemed to be a suggestion that appeals to you. Your responses are such that having their grandmother, or a sitter, isn't reasonable for you. I'm not suggesting that there's a sitter every evening, but a trial of it to change the pattern of facilitating this affair.

I don't believe that every case of adultery means a marriage should end. I know couples who have repaired a relationship after it. But staying together doesn't mean tolerating or enabling it. I also don't discount the time you spend with your kids. It's valuable. But being the sitter while she carries on an affair makes it easier for her to do that.

I don't see people suggesting you take charge as a means to end your marriage necessarily. Facilitating her time with OM makes it harder to move forward with divorce. She has the best of both worlds just like it is. She has a reliable caregiver and provider for the kids, and romance with OM. If she moves towards divorce, she loses what you have to offer. Perhaps some people suggested you taking charge to push her towards seeing the reality of her choices. She may get cold feet. This is also a possible step towards the outcome you wish for. But it's also a risk.


It's your choice. Will my suggestion work? I don't know. Any change is a risk. But continuing to do what you are doing is bringing the results you have. If you feel if what you are doing is the best choice for you then that's fine. It seems to be delaying her divorce plans, but it isn't improving the relationship between the two of you.

[Enabler]

Notwendy,

I always respect your advice, the only area I lack is the imagination to see how I implement it. Seeing the OM is intermingled with reasonable things, that's how she operates. The co-mingling of reasonable requests with unreasonable actions results in the need to object or disrupt reasonable things like going to church, or going to a parish council meeting, or going to a church band practice... since she is not overt in her relationship with the OM I struggle to be able to put up boundaries with regards to NOT enabling the unreasonable actions she does on the side. Here's an example:

Sunday evening Church -  typically she leaves at 18:15 -  I stipulated in 2016 that she should drive and not get a lift with OM, and return soon after it finishing at 21:15 since I did not want to enabler her relationship with OM by tending to the children during this time (I was currently living some of the time at my mothers so said that I would leave at 18:00 to go to hers on a Sunday if she failed to comply). I want to facilitate her going to church, that is reasonable and the teaching (which I listen to) SHOULD scream at her, I do not want to facilitate her spending time with OM. I moved back in full time in Jan17, the consequence of the boundary of me not being there to facilitate was removed. She now drives but returns some time between 23:00 and 02:00. When I have confronted her she says that it is none of my business where she goes after church. Do I go out on a Sunday evening and obstruct her doing something reasonable, not knowing for certain that she is in fact doing something unreasonable (just having a very very very strong suspicion)?

Can you see the layering effect of reasonable and unreasonable mixed with deceit and how effective that is at meaning a person can't separate what I'm okay with with what I am not okay with? If I were to move out... she'd be happy with that as well and no doubt invite OM round to play at home instead.

I'm not averse to saying no, I'm definitely not conflict avoidant, I don't see how I can precision extract myself from enabling these types of scenarios.

Enabler 

[Notwendy]

This is a tangled web of her thinking and your fear of being unreasonable or abusive in her perspective. You are trying to walk the line of reasonable but her thinking is twisted and "reasonable" and "unreasonable/abusive" are influenced by it.

I don't have an answer to it. My posts are based on my own view from watching these dynamics between my parents and also dealing with my own enabling tendencies which I think led to dysfunction in my marriage.

While you want her to go to church and "hear the message" - that message is also filtered through her own thinking and also her own wants which she sees as needs.

I think you are invested in being the good guy here, but when working with boundaries, we don't always get to be the good guy in the other person's perspective.

My BPD mother thinks any boundary is unreasonable and when I don't go along with what she wants, I'm a demon as she is concerned.

Reality, I've been a pretty good kid. I think my father was a good husband, but she still sees herself as some kind of victim.

I basically became a Stepford wife to my H, and yet, he saw any request such as asking him to do the dishes once in a blue moon as being unfair and taking advantage of him. So I walked on eggshells. His reasoning was that he worked and supported us, therefore he should not be expected to do things like that. Also he should be able to come and go as he pleased and I shouldn't ask him to watch the kids ever. So while my friends could do things you think are reasonable, like go to a women's church group, he considered this to be unreasonable.

Yes we were married. I was unhappy and resentful.

Staying married is a noble thing, but I wanted to change and so to change, I had to do "unreasonable" things as far as my H was concerned. Like  not cook dinner sometimes and let him fend for himself. Is this immoral or abusive? I don't think so. But if he thought it was, I couldn't change that.

I think the bottom line for me was to decide for myself what is abusive or immoral and not have it based on someone else's feelings. Yes, my H could have left me, that is a possible outcome. But what happened was different. Once I stopped buying into and enabling twisted thinking and owned my own reality, some of the crazy dynamics improved.

You are in a tough place, I know. But this trying to stay reasonable in your wife's eyes may be buying into twisted thinking. Not everyone gets to go out whenever they want for all hours, not even to church.

[Enabler]

I know and she knows that I am not buying into her twisted thinking, I doubt she's under any illusion that I am. However she is getting away with it, and seems to have little in the way of conscience about doing so.

I can't really control the amount of guilt she might feel about manipulating the situation, maybe she believes that I deserve this treatment for not obeying her. Part of me thinks that since I shouldn't attempt to control her, I shouldn't attempt to control the amount of guilt she assumes for her manipulation, and thus enabling what she 'says' she is doing at least clears my conscience. I can't think where this puts me on the drama triangle as I don't see this as rescuing. I'm feel neutral "I was facilitating you going to church and assumed you were going for a drink with church friends afterwards... why... what else were you doing... were you lying about that? (shrug shoulders)"

If she wants to see OM, she's going to see OM, I either place myself as perpetrator trying to stop them then it feeds other 'whack a moles' that will pop up elsewhere. Being perpetrator fuels her BPD fire. Agreeing/humouring her deceit places the guilt on her firmly and squarely.

Re your example of cooking and cleaning. I guess you're just fighting his fixed twisted opinion about how things should be. It's not like he gives you some legit (but fictitious) reason that might prohibit him from looking after himself.

Enabler

[Skip]

Your situation isn't complicated or unusual. I say, with great respect for you, I fear that you are making this far more complicated than it is and your focus is on her and what she thinks and does, and not on yourself or your children. There is an old saying, when you make it all about someone else, they will often oblige you and make it all about themselves.

What have you heard in all of this long dialogue (140+ posts)?

I'm not sure what you mean? '.. // .. Do you  suggest I should take control again?

Can you answer this in a very straight forward way? Maybe bullet points?

[Enabler]

What have I heard?

- that I am part of the cause of the stalemate
- that my wife is likely caught between a rock and hard place not wanting to be with me but not wanting to lose the benefits of me
- that my children likely know what is going on
- that the best thing for the children is that the transition from marriage to separation be as drama free as possible
- that children being in the middle of drama is not good for them and memorable
- that for some the truth doesn’t matter, but for others the truth does matter
- that some people thing that I should propose house sharing or other options that are not viable
- that if I continue on this path some people believe that I will enter a high conflict divorce which will be bad for everyone.
- that I’m just seeking outside help re how to tell kids because I’m stonewalling my wife and putting emotional roadblocks in her path to prevent divorce.
- this will all backfire

Note that’s what I’m hearing being suggested.

[Skip]

This is what I am hearing:

Marriage situation:
Marriage has serious problems - over a decade
Wife in an extended and active affair – not a short fling
Couple is cohabiting with children 6-12
Home life for husband and wife is cold war.
Divorce is filed
Divorce is bogging down at step 1

Partners motivations:
Wife’s new relationship is not yet at the point of supporting her. The failed marriage is providing a comfortable transition platform (food, housing, child care, etc.) and flexibility for navigating her new relationship or even pursuit of another relationship. If the divorce takes 12 - 18 months, that timing is most likely preferable to an immediate split.

Husband wants to maintain the status quo and not disrupt the temporary and partially functional life he has created within a toxic household. It is the easiest way to have access to the children in the short term. The primary tool with wife is resistance via FOG (fear, obligation, guilt) - not intentional - but FOG nonetheless.

Partner divorce style:
It's too early to declare a conflict level for the divorce (high, medium, low), but Enabler and wife are currently mired down in how to conduct a 15 minute “tell the children” family discussion. The debate is about how much adult information to share with the children when announcing the divorce. Enabler's wife would like to share zero adult information. Enabler would like to share some damaging adult information - but not all.

What I have heard people saying is:

1. Look at the big picture. You may be mired in the minutiae and struggling to see the forest for the trees right now. There will likely be long term consequences if you don’t broaden your perspective.

Enabler's wife is focusing on her future and is on her way to building a new life in which she can fold the children into – a  partner, a house, a second income, primary custodial care of children -who knows- maybe a dog, and boat. She has her eyes on the future and a new family. Enabler is holding onto the past and hoping to prolong the current custodial care for another 12 months or so and then move to every other weekend gig for the next 10 - 12 years… Enabler said he would not pursue another romantic relationship after the marriage and cannot pursue a 50%:50% time slip with the kids because of his work schedule. Enabler is giving little/no thought to launching an all out arms race to get into a 50%:50% custody position for the children's teenage years. Getting into a 50%:50% nesting in place arrangement now could be critical as judges often agree to the status quo. It’s also critical that a couple not be heavily bickering and log-jammed over stuff because judge will not do 50%:50% with bickering parents Building Enabler life II is important – having a healthy, capable home will be critical to the allocation of his custodial time.

2. Don't use "truth" as a weapon. Cloaking the sharing of adult information with 6-10 year olds as "truth" is probably not helpful. Where do you draw the line? Who the wife is sleeping with, or why she thinks Enabler is unfit as a husband, who masturbates, and are Santa and the tooth fairy real (this is hyperbole and to make a point, not a suggestion or an insult)

We shelter our young children from age inappropriate "difficult truths" of the world so that they can be innocent children. We lie, often through omission, to preserve innocence and protect. Enabler has lied through omission, about the tooth fairy. Enabler and wife have lied about many things. This is something honest people do.

Disclosing fault could start a PAS war as both parents try to convince the children that they (and not the other parent) are the one who cares most about them and will provide the best love.

3. There are significant signs of co-dependency  Enabler is consumed with the wife's thinking, intent, and actions to the point of being paralyzed by them. It's a divorce. It's best - most practical - to let go. For example, being very upset that she was late in turning in some divorce documents, yet wanting to delay the divorce... Understandable, but not helpful. The divorce process is a dismantling of these types of connections.

Why are people saying it?
This is not because some people don't believe in truth. One of the people you put in that bucket teaches theology. Others you know well from posting here and you know they have character and integrity.

This is not people telling you they know how to do it better than you. It's been said over and over that everyone respects your right to chose.  We are just sounding boards.

You are a victim, Enabler. We all see that. Your wife has been tough on you and the affair would devastate anyone's reality. Infidelity blows up our world. You have every reason to be beat down and wounded and focused on day to day survival. All of us have been there. We know that others rise above when they are ready to rise above - on their timetable - not on ours.

This is about people trying to crack the very hardened and complex web you have weaved around yourself and help you to clear the deck of years of being beat down -  to start thinking about a new future. Get out of the past.

I hear people saying that they are ready to help you take the very first step of considering and talking openly about options that you have not thought about or have rejected.

Fair summary?

[Cat Familiar]

Enabler, you may be somewhat comfortable living in limbo with many potential outcomes and choices available to you, as things begin to coalesce.

I think what you’re neglecting to see is that your daughters are also living in limbo, through no choice of their own. Children crave security and this extended period of uncertainty now has gone on for many years of their childhood.This is a continued:
https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=341263