My Soon To Be Mother In-Law is non-Diagnosed BPD

[trueheart89]

Hi there,

This is my first post. I am reaching out because my fiance and I are really struggling with his mom who has never been clinically diagnosed with BPD, but from our extensive research, and from talking with our own psychiatrists/therapists we feel it is likely the case. Basically I am trying to find a place where my fiance and I can get advise and vent to people who are experiencing the same thing. Unfortunately, his parents are divorced and he only has one sibling. No one else in his family is comfortable discussing the possibility that the mom has serious personality disorder and that the relationships that are a result from that are extremely unhealthy. She has written off her 2 siblings so my fiance does not have aunts or uncles to discuss it with, and her parents are also not mentally stable (in my future MIL's words).

My fiance and I are feeling very lonely and hopeless because nothing we try to set boundaries with his mom works. In fact, the more we try to set boundaries, the harder she pushes. And now his sister is getting involved (taking thier mom's side) Our engagement has been hell because of all of this. I am feeling especially vulnerable because I am the outside taking away her baby boy...  I have done everything I can to have a good relationship with my future mother in law and sister in law, including asking the sister to be one of my bridesmaids (along with my sister, and best friends). I am very close with my family and siblings and was so excited to get to know my fiances sister- She is the only family who lives in town, other than my parents, so I couldn't wait to have a sibling near us.  But because we are trying to work on boundaries with their mom- it is causing major tension with the sister... I am so stressed all the time. This is the ONLY thing my fiance and I fight about. His family. The Holidays are awful because all they do is keep score on how much time we spend with my family vs. theirs. I feel angry and resentful all the time because I am extremely protective of my family. We have been through a lot together and now I have some other woman telling me I am not allowed to spend as much time with them as we do...

We need help. We are already seeing a therapist. Both as a couple and separately. I have even invited my mom to come with me so she can better support me and understand what we are dealing with. I love my fiance so much. When he was a kid his mom cut off his dad's side of the family completely because she did not get along with them. He did not know his grandparents on that side before they died, and it makes him sad. He did not know his cousins until his parents divorced and they were grown adults. Luckily, they now have an awesome relationship. I have promised him I will never cut off his family, that I think that is sad and I will always do my best to maintain some sort of a relationship with his family. I have always reached out to include them in everything we do. I have always loved having a big family and always envisioned us doing everything all together as one big family... that is becoming very clear that that will not fly. I am very fearful of what I will be able to handle in the future. I am 100% committed to my fiance. I will do whatever it takes to have a happy future with him and I hope that includes his family as I promises, but I worry now if I will be able to handle it. We are not even married yet, and I am really struggling... I do feel lucky that we are on the same page with his mom, but she is still forcing her way into our lives daily whether it be long drawn out text messages, facebook, email, you name it. We can not escape it. I have even considered getting off social media because of her... but this is how I keep up with my family so that doesn't seem fair or even like it would solve anything.

[pursuingJoy]

Hi trueheart89! I'm sorry for the things that have brought you here but I want to welcome to bpdfamily!    

I also have a uBPD MIL, as do others here, so I can relate to much of what you're saying. I only saw neediness at first. I didn't really see her mean side until she realized that she wouldn't be moving in with us. It's been challenging, to say the least.

I'm glad to hear that you and your fiance are in counseling, and it is amazing that you're mostly on the same page. (I have other blessings, but not that one, my H is insistent that his mom and his relationship with her is normal.)

Can you tell us more what exactly you and your fiance fight about? Sometimes specific examples are helpful.

I know it can be so frustrating when people push back on boundaries that you've set. Would it help to sort through what you've tried so far and what's happened?

Make sure to let us know how we can help, trueheart. Hang in there.

pj
 

[GaGrl]

Welcome, and we're so glad you found your way to us. My parents went through this when they married -- my stepgrandmother is uBPD/BPD -- and my stepGrandmother was nasty at my wedding years later.

It is awesome that you and your fiance are doing this work now, because it definitely can become a negative factor in your marriage -- and in having children.

With some specific examples, we can help you work through how to work with boundaries that are based on your (yours and your fiance's) values, and share some techniques to hold those boundaries.

The wedding itself has some stress surrounding it -- are your MIL and SIL okay on the wedding, or do you anticipate problems?

[Spindle0516]

I also have an Ubpd MIL. My husband and I were married in June, and in the months surrounding the wedding, we noticed an uptick in a lot more difficult behavior. And like you, his mom is often the biggest cause of tension between the two of us.

It is so hard to be the daughter in law- I too have a very close family and his family's dynamics are so different than mine.

A lot of this journey has also been about me learning the most appropriate and helpful ways to support my husband AND protect myself. As DIL's we are the outsiders. We are the people who "changed their sons," and "make them do things they would have never done before." It has been very hard for her to realize that he is an adult and does not need his mom the way she wants him to need her. In almost every way, he has become the parent figure.

This board has been so helpful for my husband and I as we are learning to navigate the complexities of this relationship. You are not alone in this!   

[trueheart89]

Well first of all, thank you so much for all your kind words of encouragement. One thing I will say is I feel completely secure in my relationship with my fiance and support each other unconditionally(we'll call him Chris for the sake of this discussion.) We are on the same page, have the same vision for what kind of future we want and we are both aligned on his mom's behavior.

The specific arguments we have are not so much between us- it's more centered around the tension with his family. I want to know how we are going to tackle this issue go forward and he doesn't have the answer. His family is very passive. I grew up in a family where we always openly talked about our feelings. If we had a problem, we talked it out. They are the complete opposite. So that is very difficult for me. When his mom upsets him, he just let's her get away with it. He does not address it head on or stand up for me directly, which sometimes is hurtful to me. I am very headstrong and confident on my own and I don't feel like I need him to fight my battles, but I also don't want to feel like my fiance won't ever stand up for me when his mom is bullying me... this is one thing we are specifically working on in therapy. Also on how to best tackle those altercations with his mom the most successfully because of her personality. Setting boundaries with her has been challenging. She does not like to hear "no." We have been trying to put our foot down more with things, and the more we do that- the harder she pushes back.

Here's so brief history for context on our relationship. Chris and I met in our 30's ( I was 29 he was 31). I was his first real serious girlfriend and the only one he ever brought home to meet his family. We knew pretty quickly that we were the one's for each other. I met his family about 2 months after we started dating and he asked me to move in with him 8 months after we started dating. (This was also after we had discussed wanting to get married and expressing that with both our families.) We got engaged  6 months after that. During this time I had been working very hard to build a meaningful and genuine relationship with his family, especially his mom and his sister. Building relationships have never been hard for me, I wear my heart on my sleeve and am very outgoing. I was so excited that his sister lived in town because my 2 siblings have since moved out of state. I was excited to have someone here to hang out with on the weekends!  We reached out frequently to make plans with his sister and brother in law (like every couple of weeks.) And they would almost always cancel last min or have other plans... So after about 6 months I began to cool it on that, thinking maybe they just like having their own space. I also went out of my way to make special plans with his mom. We invited her to come stay with us for a couple weekends- I took her shopping one day just us girls, had her stay with us Mothers day weekend (didn't see my own mom that weekend) and really tried to show her that I genuinely wanted a relationship with her. But Chris had warned me about his mom. That she could be a little "much" and to be careful. I soon started to see this.

Major Conflict #1
Last March after I reached out to her telling her I was not going to be able to make it to an easter lunch she wanted to plan (Chris would, but I could not because I was helping my parents move out of my childhood home.) We received a long drawn out text mapping out how family holidays were going to go down from now on. This text was not a conversation, it was a list of demands. It listed out every holiday and what days we would be celebrating them for the years to come. It had specific days and at what time and all of them taking place at her house. All holidays were the typically weekend before the actual holiday- for example "We will ALWAYS celebrate thanksgiving as a family at my home the weekend before thanksgiving starting at Friday 7pm and will be an overnight through the following Sunday 2pm." Each holiday was listed out this way... then came the big one. "Christmas will ALWAYS be celebrated at my home and you will all stay the night for both Christmas Eve and Christmas Day..." I broke down in tears. This was before Chris and I were even engaged ... I felt like this woman was trying to keep me prisoner from my own family. It was unbelievable. Chris called her and calmly said, although on paper this seems like a good idea, it is just not workable for us and we would not be signing up to this. It gets more complicated when you are dealing with bigger families. (my family is bigger with lots of moving parts so sometimes we have to be flexible about dates when we can all get together.) The thought of never being with my own family on Christmas again was heartbreaking... let alone when Chris and I start our own family and want our own traditions in our own home... When Chris confronted her about this (very calmly and non-aggressive) she completely blew up on him. She was swearing and yelling so loud I could hear her on the phone from the second floor of our condo. She accused us of not including her in our lives and of always putting my family first... That argument continues today...

Major Conflict #2
This just happened last week. We were feeling some distance and tension with Chris's sister. So he called her to ask her if everything was ok. His sister told him that their mom told her that last spring I told my future MIL that "they all need to get used to not seeing Chris anymore... " and that she was not comfortable with me. This is a bold face lie. Not only is that just not something I would ever say, it is also the OPPOSITE of what my actions have been showing, including with his sister! Needless to say, I was very upset by this. I did call his sister myself. She did not pick up but I left her a nice voicemail saying that whatever was said or interpreted that I said was not correct. I never said anything like that, and I absolutely do not believe that they should get used to not seeing Chris. I explained that family is the most important thing to me and that included their family. I then said I would love to see more of them, but I know their schedule is very busy. Then I explained that we loved them very much and our door is always open. She did not respond or return my call.

Another part of all of this that is stressful is that Chris's sister is one of my bridesmaids and her husband is Chris's best-man in our wedding in September. Needless to say that is causing a lot of added stress on us. We just want to enjoy this happy time in our lives and instead we are just hoping that his family will show up to our wedding...

[GaGrl]

On the holiday schedule from your future MIL...wow. Just wow.

That is so outside any logical or normal approach for holidays when an adult child is marrying. It is good that Chris recognized this and quickly stated such to his mother.

A few questions...how does his sister and BIL handle holidays between two families? Do they also run into conflict with his mother? In which areas? And where is Chris' father in all this?

You are absolutely correct in that, as you establish your marriage and new family, you will want and need to establish how that works for you. Without boundaries that help set up a workable relationship with Chris' family, having children will be even more difficult than a wedding.

Have you looked at the site resources on Boundaries yet? That may be a good place to start and to get additional help from a couples counselor.

[trueheart89]

That is also the frustrating part for me... Chris's sister just goes along with it. She enable's his mom to behave this way. She was also on this text (it was a group text to the 4 of us- Chris, myself, sister and BIL) and his sister's response was "Sounds great!" I was so disappointed... it made me feel immediately like the bad guy.

Chris's family is small. It is just the 4 of them- and his mom has cut off everyone in her family except for her 2 kids and her parents who do not leave their house anymore. His sister's husband (BIL) has a much smaller family as well and they are all in state and live pretty clustered together. Chris's parents are divorced and still live in their hometown which is about 2 hours away from us and they live 5 min from each other. that was also the kicker about that text- none of that was allowing any of us any time for us to go see their Dad. (Also note their mom left their Dad 10 years ago when he was at work with no warning.) They live in a tiny town that Chris really doesn't really any ties to anymore and sometimes actually feels sad going back to. He says our current city is his home now...

I have not looked at the boundaries references yet. I want to do that with Chris this weekend. We have been listening to a few audiobooks together so far but not gotten a lot from them yet.  Counseling is helping so far. I am actually bringing my mom into a session with just me tonight so I can have my own support from my family...

Chris's sister lives 15 min from us. I am from where Chris and I currently live (and sister/BIL live), and my parents and aging grandmother as well as some cousins still live. We live in a big city with more things to do and more people to easily go see. Yet, his mom is adamant that the holidays will be spent at her house. Which makes us feel sad about our future... Of course I don't think it's fair for her to always some drive to see us, but she already had her turn to throw the holiday dinners at her house with her family. Now we are the adults starting our lives and we would like to have our own traditions and memories... and the bottom line is, it is not enjoyable when we are there. She treats Chris like he is still 8 years old and it is always extremely awkward.  We have tried to get ahead of this by inviting her to our house the weekend before Christmas to celebrate with us- but she is insisting on bringing the dinner she wants to make and she also has heavily hinted 3 times that we still find time to make it back to her house on Christmas... it's exhausting. We have not told her yet that we will be at my sister's for Christmas eve and Christmas (and then returning home to work the next day!)

Meanwhile my sister and her family lives 3 hours away and my brother and girlfriend live 9 hours away. I only get to see them a few times a year now. We are extremely close and if I had it my way I would see them every weekend. They are my best friends. Yet any time we spend with them is counted and thrown back in our faces later when Chris's mom is feeling left out.

[pursuingJoy]

I want to echo GaGrl's 'wow' on the holiday schedule. The fact that she has already exhibited some clearly over-the-top behavior, and Chris' willingness to see and accept what is happening means you are both able to make informed decisions as you start your life together. Slim silver lining in the middle of a storm, I know.

The fact that you are already talking about how he can take steps to stand up to his mom on your behalf is huge. This is a battle worth fighting. It's been hands down the most difficult thing to deal with from my H.

My H has often taken on the role of his BPD mom's defender...if she's upset, he'll pick up the cause and run with it. Imatter, another poster, used a valuable analogy of feeling like she had to be her BPD MIL's airbag. Some children of BPD feel a strong sense of loyalty to their parent and feel compelled to stand with and support them. This sounds like the role your future SIL is playing. I know it's frustrating to watch her enable. It's possible that this dynamic with her could get worse as you set boundaries with your future MIL.

So glad Chris is on your side and wanting to support you. It will still be difficult but that is key.

If you need to vent about wedding prep or Christmas plans, we're here. Hang in there. You're doing all you can. I hope this wedding is a beautiful experience for you two.

pj

[worriedStepmom]

It was a difficult transition when my ex and I married. Even without a PD in the mix, it took a few years for us to sort everything out and to really differentiate "our life" versus just being their kids. 

It's okay if your relationship with his family isn't rosy and perfect right now ... or next year ... or the year after that...or never.   It's okay to try to build those relationships more slowly, and it's okay if you get frustrated when your efforts aren't enough to satisfy the black hole that is his mom.

Now that your fiance is making efforts to stand up to his mom and sister, you will likely bear the brunt of the blame for that.  You've already seen that.  His mom *feels* that you are taking away her son, so she believes (and tells people) that you have acknowledged/announced that.

Have you read any of the articles on JADE - Justify, Argue, Defend, Explain?  It can be crazy-making to engage in these with someone who isn't being reasonable. 

[zachira]

My heart goes out to you hearing how your future MIL is treating you. I admire your wisdom in going to therapy. Before you get married, how you are going to deal with your future husband's family is going to be very important in determining how much they negatively affect your marriage. My mother with BPD was determined that none of her children would ever get married and did every thing she could to ruin all her children's relationships, especially her sons' relationshps. You really get it that your future MIL sees you as the woman that is taking her son away from her. Can you talk with your therapist about what boundaries you want to set with his family now and in the future when you have children? We welcome you to BPD family and are here to help in any way we can.

[trueheart89]

worriedStepmom I have not read any of the articles on JADE but I will definitely give this a look over. Thank you for the suggestion.

Zachira- thank you so much for your support. We have been working with our therapist on what boundaries we want to set and how we can best set them. Chris and I share the same vision for what we would like "ideally" for our future with our families to look like. That is with including everyone as much as possible. We both want our children to know their grandparents, and for them to know their children. We want to continue to have relationships with his sister and BIL. At this point we are just taking it day by day. We know we are not in control. We know that it will not be easy with his mom and that we can not let our guards down. We only give her a little bit of information at time, but still try to include her as much as we can.

 Saying no to her is still something we are working on. She does not accept no... she will continue to push if you tell her you will have to get back to her on something...  She even targeted my mom on facebook this week. My mom commented on a photo I posted of Chris, myself and his mom on thanksgiving. All she said was "looks like you all had a great time! " and future MIL wrote this huge paragraph about my mom should  bring my sister's kids (my mom's grandkids) to her house for a visit around Christmas time to see their "magical" little park by her house. Although, it was a nice gesture (a little weird to invite my sister's kids) She took it WAY OVER the top. My mom politely told her that would be wonderful and she knows the kids would enjoy it but with them living out of state there is never enough time to do all the holiday activities. She explained she is still trying to figure out a way to see all of her kids around the holidays this year and there just aren't enough days in the year! Then she ended with "looking forward to seeing you at TH's and Chris's in the exciting months to come ahead with wedding events!" Chris's mom did not take no for an answer. She went on and on about this park and how my mom should come without the grandkids with Chris and I (we already told her we will not be making another trip to her house for Christmas- we were at her house for thanksgiving and we invited her to stay with us the weekend before Christmas to do our celebration with her.) She gave my mom a complete history of the park and how we could drink champagne at her house and walk to the park as a "united family"... My mom responded with a christmas tree emoji... !  You just can not continue that conversation at that point. Chris and I are already preparing for this to be twisted in her mind and thrown back in our faces... it will be turned it to my family being mean to her and not wanting to include her. Even though my mom invited to come over our last easter brunch in our childhood home with our family (when my parents were int he middle of moving- and MIL was making a big deal of me not being able to make time for her), and I have invited all of them to join my parents and Chris and I for dinner several times... ugh... it's exhausting.

[GaGrl]

On a positive note, you've enlisted your mother to understand and support you and Chris in navigating through this, and the social media posting is a really good example of what your mom needs to understand can happen with future MIL with her over-the-top behaviors.

[Spindle0516]

Are you my kindred spirit? Our experiences sound so similar.   

I just got married 6 months ago and I too felt a lot of frustration at not feeling "allowed" to just be excited during this period of our lives. Everything felt tainted by my MIL's inability to just allow us to have this time without drawing the attention to her in some way. A week before our wedding, she had a full blown meltdown- crying, panic attacks, the whole works- because we were not going to be in the same hotel as her. She wanted us within the same space in "the event that she needed us for something." I remember saying to my husband that I didn't understand why we couldn't even have just one night, OUR WEDDING NIGHT, to not have to be the direct caretakers of her emotional needs. (She lives with us, so we deal with it daily.) It was a thing and it was really hard not to feel resentful.

I eventually came to realize that any detail apart from the date, time, and her dress was too much for her to handle and I stopped including her. My husband and I also ultimately decided to not have a wedding party so as to avoid the complications that would cause with her/his siblings. It made me sad for a period of time, but I came to realize that the day was really about the two of us, and everyone who loves us will be there regardless of whether or not they were in matching bridal party attire. I still took photos with those people and it still felt special. Paring it all down, actually became a really special way for me to bond with my husband, and to really figure out what was most important to us for our wedding day. This is not necessarily the solution for you, but just remember why you are marrying your husband, and any detail apart from the two of you and the vows that you want to make to each other are irrelevant.

You and I appear to be in really similar stages of this journey. My husband and I are only married for 6 months, but we have been together for 5 years, and lived together for 3. My MIL moved in with us shortly after due to health concerns. For so long, we didn't realize that BPD was likely the cause of a lot of chaos. His family does not understand and are not emotionally capable of supporting us as we support her. If my husband and I were not united in our approach, it would have been a lot harder for us to sustain our relationship. Regardless, I wish we had approached a therapist years ago because supporting her in a way that is healthy for my husband and I has been the hardest thing I have ever done.

As we went through this process, I also had to learn a lot, and I am still learning daily,  the best ways for me support my husband. Her reactions to me and to him were surprising for him even though he has dealt with her for his entire life. It was and has been hard for him to accept that even in these monumental times of his life, he will never get to just have a mom. Coming from a family who is close, and who enjoys doing a lot of things together, this was was harder for me than I would have expected. The way he processes these experiences, the way he shows emotion, and the way he grieves have all been impacted by having a mom with an inability to regulate her emotions. As a result, the approaches that would have worked with my family, or even with friends, did and do not work with him. All this to say- a lot of patience may be required, especially with yourself as you navigate all these relationships. I have never had a problem connecting with and getting along with people. I actually always thought it was my greatest strength, but this tested that, and I spent a long time thinking that I must not be doing something right and feeling like I was ruining his relationship with his mom.

Our marriage has been a huge trigger for her. Her fear of abandonment heightened significantly and was a catalyst for her ending up in the hospital several months later. We are still seeing the affects of that. I bore the brunt of the blame for the choices she made and for "ruining her family," and for "ruining her son." Like Pursuing Joy stated, as you start to set boundaries, the dynamic may become more difficult, so it is good that you are already utilizing various resources to sustain and support you and your fiance.

I feel like I just blurted out a whole lot at you, but it was just a long winded way of trying to say that I understand what you are going through. As you go through this process, remember that this time is about celebrating you and Chris. And when things get challenging, know that you are not alone, and that we are hear to listen.

[Panda39]

Hi trueheart,

I'm on these boards because my Partner has an undiagnosed BPD ex-wife (uBPDxw) so come at BPD from a slightly different angle.  I wanted to pop in and talk about boundaries a little bit.  BPD folks are excellent boundary busters.  The key is to be consistent with your boundary and enforcing it.  I often share this simple analogy because I think it can make things easier to see...

We've all seen this at the grocery store...

Mom's value: I want to take good care of my child and that includes eatting good healthy food.
Mom's boundary: Sweets are to be had at special occasions only
Mom's Action: Not buy sweets for her child while grocery shopping

A little kid asks mom for candy, mom says no so the kid pouts.  Little kid asks mom again for some candy, mom says no again so the kid whines.  Little kid asks mom again for some candy, mom says no for the third time, this time kid has a full on melt down screaming tantrum (what we call an Extinction Burst). What happens if mom gives in and gets the candy?  That little kid has just learned that having a screaming tantrum will get them what they want and if it gets them what they want once screaming in the grocery store will likely work again. What happens if mom doesn't give in? The kid learns that no means no and he gives up.

This does not mean however that the little kid won't ask again the next time mom and he go to the grocery store...the kid will test the boundary again and so will the person with BPD in your life.  The key here is to always be consistent with your boundary.

Our BPD Family members can act just like the child in the grocery store.  Set a boundary and they push and push and have tantrums hoping that you will cave and they will get what they want. Our job is to send a consistent message.

I love this quote because this is what boundaries is about, it's about protecting ourselves it is not about punishing someone else.


I also wanted to pull a couple of links on items already mentioned for you...

More on Boundaries...
https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=61684.0
https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=167368.0

Extinction Burst...
https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=85479.0

More on JADE (Justify, Argue, Defend, Explain)...
https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=139972.0

Take Care,
Panda39

[trueheart89]

Spindle0516- Oh my gosh, we are so similar! Except I don't think I would surivive my MIL living with me. You are a saint in my eyes! Thank you so much for reaching out and sharing your story and experiences with me. This the whole reason I joined this support group. I wanted to find people out there with similar stories to bond with and to seek advise and even to vent to without feeling judged. I also just wanted to find a group of people who truly understand exactly what Chris and I were dealing his. His mom is not a normal rational person. Things you do with other people that work to solve conflicts do not work with her. Normal communication tactics do not work with her. It is very difficult. I feel like people often think I am being negative when I say that... it's hard because I am a very positive person at heart! I just know from experience and my own constant disappointments with his mom what will and will not work with her...

With my wedding I know my family is very concerned about me allowing her to dictate what we do and do not do for our wedding. But what they do not understand is that added stress that comes along with my MIL. It's not so much allowing her to have the control- but trying to alleviate some of the unnecessary stress from Chris and I. So we have had to basically make a list of what our priorities are for the wedding. There are things that are non-negotiable for us. For example- our wedding parties. . I am involving my family heavily in my wedding just as I have always dreamed of and I refuse to allow her to make me feel guilty for that. My sister is my maid of honor and my brother is officiating. My brother is also a groomsman (pulling double duty) and is my brother in law. However, we are also including his sister as my bridesmaid, because his family is equally as important to us (or at least they were until it seemed sides were being taken). Chris also chose his BIL as his best man, and several of his cousins as groomsmen. Chris doesn't have a lot friends of his own. We spend a lot of time with our families and with mutual friends, so this is what made the most sense to him at the time. It is causing a little stress now that his sister seems to be under his mom's spell currently. We are not sure how that will affect BIL. We really do not want to put him in the middle of it, but can not control what they do.  Another non-negotiable is My mom and I always joked about doing a silly choreographed mother-daughter dance at my wedding (in addition to the all the traditional dances and my father daughter dance with my dad). So literally each of my immediate family members will have some sort of "starring role" at some point during our wedding. At first I was nervous about still doing this in fear of what MIL would think or say, but ultimately decided, no. My mom and I have been talking about that for years, since I was in HS, and it would not be fair to my mom to take that away from her. This is MY family's wedding just as much as their family's wedding. I have always had an especially close and unique relationship with my family and that is because of our history as a family. We have been through a lot. And that's what makes these happy, and momentous times so very important. I can mute that away because of one person. Chris is one the same page with me there too. He has always become close with my family. It is not our responsibility to make his mom happy, and especially on our wedding day. If she is jealous of my close my relationship with my family that is not my business and I can not allow it to affect one of the most special days of my life. OF course I am saying this today... tomorrow I could break down and not feel this strong. But today and I trying to remind myself of these things! I am trying to use my stubbornness to my advantage for Chris and I when it comes to our wedding. We will not let anyone pierce our love bubble that day.

Panda39- I loved your analogy about the kids in the grocery store! It's funny my mom gave me the very same advise! She told me that she would come at this the very same way you would approach setting boundaries with a toddler. Stay consistent, stick out their temper tantrums- no matter how bad, remind yourself don't  know any better (or in this case can't help themselves) and remember you are standing your ground to teach them what is acceptable and to better yourself in the future.

Thank you for the additional links too.  I will be reading these tonight for sure.



 

[Spindle0516]

Hi, TrueHeart! I meant to reply a few days ago, but I don't know what is happening to time. I am with you on so much of what you are saying.

My MIL, BIL, and husband have all started spending holidays with my family. My MIL is often on her best behavior there, so it isn't much of an issue. And my BIL and husband said that some of their best holidays have been with my family. They didn't know a family gathering could exist without chaos. (Not that my family doesn't argue and bicker, but it isn't even comparable). It makes me happy they can come and enjoy themselves and so sad for everything they went through as children.

With my wedding I know my family is very concerned about me allowing her to dictate what we do and do not do for our wedding. But what they do not understand is that added stress that comes along with my MIL. It's not so much allowing her to have the control- but trying to alleviate some of the unnecessary stress from Chris and I. So we have had to basically make a list of what our priorities are for the wedding.

I understand this completely and this is ultimately what my husband and I did.

So for example:

One of our non negotiables was initially wanting a wedding party. We eventually realized that it was becoming complicated due to his family's confusing relationships (and finances which played a huge role in how we planned the wedding). We spent some time sitting with that and eventually realized what we really wanted was for our families and close friends to play a role in our wedding day. So we found ways to meet those needs without assigning them the title of "brides maid" or "grooms men."

It allowed us to have some flexibility and use our imaginations as to what that could look like. Our siblings stood by us during the ceremony. 2 of our close mutual friends read a poem and a passage during the ceremony. His niece was a flower girl. His dad played a song on guitar and sang. Two of our siblings each gave a toast. My aunt who has down syndrome read a poem..so on and so forth. It ended up being more special than I could have ever imagined and everyone had a part to play. No one was left out and it reduced tension on his families side.

Now, this is not me saying don't have a wedding party. This day is about you and your husband and if that is what you both want, you should do that. BUT, as you figure out your priorities, I would encourage you to step back from them a moment and sit with them. When we did this, we started to realize that what we thought were our priorities were actually rooted in something deeper and we were able to meet our needs/wants and alleviate the tensions between family members at the same time.

As I am writing this, I am also realizing how this was great practice for us and we really started doing this with a lot of serious interactions we have with his

mom. We figure out what our values are/what is most important to us and we approach each interaction with that in mind. It has certainly decreased the amount of tense conversations we have had and we don't have as many pointless arguments.

It is still hard though, but responding to you just now has helped me see some of the progress we have made!

How have you been feeling about the wedding planning and the holiday plans lately? And I hope the therapy session with your mom was helpful! 

[trueheart89]

Thanks for your response Spindle0516. That is a lot of really great advise! I can't wait to share your insights with Chris.

I am having a hard time today, actually. I'm at work and fighting back the urge to cry just feeling overwhelmed and hopeless. We did not have a a great weekend. Chris and I had an awesome therapy session on Friday afternoon and were both feeling really positive because we are on the same page with his family and feeling really strong in our relationship. Chris's work Holiday party was Friday night and we were really excited to go out and have a fun night and just let our hair down. We haven't been out in a while and I was really excited to meet his co-workers. The party was at a new cool bar in our city that they had rented out just for our group. It was an open bar with pizza to snack on. The night started out great! We were both having so much fun! Mingling with people our age and not thinking about all our stress at home. It was a blast! I had not eaten dinner so I grabbed a piece of pizza but these were giant like new york style pizza slices and hard to eat when you are standing around talking to a group of people- especially people you are just meeting, so I probably only ate like 1/2 a piece... Cut to a few hours later and 3 strong drinks later the party was wrapping up and Chris's boss invited everyone to move on to another local watering hole. Again, we were having fun and weren't ready for our evening to end- because it had been a while since we had been out. But before we all left the boss bought everyone a round a shots... This must of been my kiss of death because I barely remember getting to the next spot. Apparently we were only there for about 20 min before I fell down twice and was asked to leave by the bartender... I am MORTIFIED... I can't believe I allowed myself to get to that point at Chris's work party! Chris and I got in huge fight on the street only 1/2 block from the bar and I wouldn't allow him to go get our car. He ended up calling my parents to come get us... I was a mess. I ruined our 1 fun night out. I embarrassed myself and worse of all I embarrassed Chris. I feel completely ashamed... and worse is some of these people I had just met and most likely will not see again until our wedding (they are on our guest list). My mom has been wonderful in trying to convince me to forgive myself. That I am human and we all make mistakes, and that we have all been there before. But I can not let this go... I feel terrible and so ashamed. I know it was not something I did on purpose but I can not stop thinking about what all Chris's co-workers and in particular, his boss's are thinking about me...

Then on top of that- we got a long 4 paragraph text message from Chris's mom last night. She stated she hoped we had fun at his Christmas party and that she was disappointed that we had not sent her photos or posted any photos on facebook. Are you kidding me? I didn't want to post any photos of the night because I felt so ashamed in how the night ended! Also we only took 1 photo and it wasn't that great. We were having too much fun to be concerned with taking photos... She is so consumed with social media... She also went on to pressure us to find time to make it to her house around Christmas, even though we have plans with her this weekend at our house to celebrate Christmas with her. This weekend's plan is already a source of stress and frustration for me because I tried to plan a weekend of things I knew she would enjoy doing and it was all thrown back in my face...

Some history on how our visits typically go. I can't even tell you how many times I have invited her to our house for dinner. I LOVE to cook and entertain at our house (as does she at her home). Since my parents live in town we don't typically have the opportunity to because when my siblings are in town we go to my parents- they have more space for everyone. This is something I have looked forward to about Chris's smaller family. However, every time I have done this she has insisted to take that "burden" off me and she has found a restaurant (in our city mind you) and made a reservation.  This drives me nuts! First of all, I offered to make dinner because I wanted to, not because I felt burdened to. Second of all, this is where we live. Maybe we have a favorite restaurant we would like to take her to! But she must have control over the plans, so she finds the restaurant and sets the reservation time without consulting us on what we may already have planned for us to do.

So in order to try to get ahead all of this for our Christmas visit, on Thanksgiving (while we were at her house- we did Thanksgiving with her this year and Christmas with my family- we did the opposite last year) I invited her to come stay with us the weekend before Christmas- Friday night through Sunday morning. For Saturday night we had picked a trendy downtown restaurant she would LOVE and then there was a nearby park we could walk around to view the Christmas lights. I also mentioned that if Chris's sister and husband wanted to join that would be wonderful too-! She told us right off the bat she did not want to intrude Friday night and would come Saturday afternoon. Again- it's not intruding or a burden if I am inviting her...ugh. Then she demanded we give her a specific time to arrive at our house when we told her it did not matter to us as we had blocked off the whole weekend for her. She agreed to that plan (but getting to our house at 3 PM sharp on Saturday- eye rolls). 2 days later, after she spent some time with Chris's sister, we received a lengthy text message saying "Thank you for the invitation see you on the 21st, and I am thankful that my schedule was open that day.. I will return home that same evening as I already had plans for Sunday meeting friends for church and a brunch at my home on the 22nd"... weird that she did not mention that 2 days prior when we first discussed this plan. She also stated "you mentioned eating out but as that gets so costly for everyone. If you will allow I will bring dinner in my crockpot for everyone. Sister and BIL will come and join us at 5pm for a family dinner at your home." I was so frusterated as I know that this is not a text asking us if this new plan is ok with us. This is a text telling us what we WILL be doing. Chris and I do not have a choice. So now I am hosting a dinner at my house that I am not even getting to prepare, and I do not get to even determine what time people should arrive... After thinking this thru and chatting it out with my mom I have decided to just try to let it go and stay positive. Whatever, it is money we are not needing to spend. I can decorate the table beautifully the way I like it, put out a few yummy appetizers, have nice music playing and now I don't have to worry about having the stress for the whole weekend of having her around. But at the same time... how dare she... After she kept us at her house until after 8pm thanksgiving night when she knew I had to work the next morning. Now she is planning an early dinner my own house so she can get home...

And now cut back to that new long text from last night... pressuring Chris to find MORE time to come to her home for Christmas-time... She went on and on about how much she misses him... yet she has been in town every weekend since Thanksgiving visiting his sister and we have not once been contacted to join them. They all went out to dinner 15 min from our house last Saturday and we were not invited... Chris and I had no plans. We had only told her we could not see her that Friday night due to Chris's work party. I'm sure she did not invite us to dinner as punishment for that... it's all so exhausting and I am feeling like crawling out of my skin. Chris is going through a lot right now and I am trying to be strong for him but this is a lot for me too...

[MamaLlamaDrama]

This feels so familiar. Planning our wedding was when the cracks started to show. I remember saying to my now husband "wow we're really going to need to set boundaries before we have kids". We didn't have any idea she may have BPD and I wish I had started learning and setting boundaries before having kids. You have a head start on us and it can only help. I don't have much advice at the moment. We're just learning as we go as well. I also have a very close family who communicate a lot. My husbands family barely knows how to speak to each other and they all communicate through his mom. It's a different world and I'm just trying to learn as much as possible about BPD so I can support him as we go through this.
It's so frustrating and hard to not take things personally. Best of luck!

[kiwigal]

I have been in your shoes and your stories ring so familiar!
Therefore, my first reaction, honestly, was "run!" 
But honestly, there is such a precious invitation in this storm, to become so grounded and centred.
You need to be so tender to yourself. You won't get it perfect and its so messy!
Can I post you some great tips my counsellor wrote out for me? They are simple truth statements that ride over the distress, when working with narcissistic/ BPD people:

1. I can't be misinterpreted if I merely respectfully point out my visiting protocols, and even comebacks on commitments they expect from me can be plain and simple.
2. Matters involving me are always up for negotiation - anything requiring my commitment requires negotiation if it doesn't fit - this is how all humans operate (except the in laws).
3. I always have the right to say what will work for me and what won't; any non-compliance on my part always have a reason.
4. I can be flexible when I have (whatever reassurances I need) .
5. Counter-propositions are not of themselves noncooperation.
6. Challenge assumptions on their end.
7. Always be specific about what's needed.

You will find so many wonderful wonderful tools here. Harri in particular, has been such a lifeline to me! And just know, you're marriage always comes first and this stuff will make you so strong together 

[Spindle0516]

Then she demanded we give her a specific time to arrive at our house when we told her it did not matter to us as we had blocked off the whole weekend for her.

I have come to find that open ended anything is too much for my MIL. When it comes to plans, I have realized that if I leave it too broad, or give her too much room to do/show up/plan however she wants, I feel railroaded and end up miserable. Perhaps going forward, you can be more specific, and keep the visits to just day visits. Then, you don't have to feel the frustration of all the detours you have to take to finally arrive at a plan.

And now cut back to that new long text from last night... pressuring Chris to find MORE time to come to her home for Christmas-time... She went on and on about how much she misses him...

I believe this is an instance where boundaries are appropriate and you are allowed to say no. I am still working on how to implement those appropriately,  but when it comes to your home and what is happening in your home, your voice still has value. I love what kiwigal says, "anything requiring my commitment requires negotiation if it doesn't fit."

Finding ways to support your husband is wonderful, but IT IS hard for you too, and you still have to take care of you. I spent a long time trying to be supportive of my MIL and my husband. I still try to be those things, but I am learning that all of this won't work if I also don't feel whole and like my voice has value. Finding the balance is tricky!

As kiwigal also said, "but honestly, there is such a precious invitation in this storm, to become so grounded and centered. You need to be so tender to yourself. You won't get it perfect and it's so messy."

I love that and I am also putting that in my back pocket!

All I can say is to remember that even in regard to your finances work party. Give yourself a little grace- it is so clear you've offered it in abundance to the people around you!

I hope today is proving to be a bit better than yesterday.

[kiwigal]

I have come to find that open ended anything is too much for my MIL. When it comes to plans, I have realized that if I leave it too broad, or give her too much room to do/show up/plan however she wants, I feel railroaded and end up miserable.

THIS Spindle!
Oh my word, you have nailed something for me. I have exactly the same thing!
With my MIL, if I agree to an 'event', in her mind, I have agreed to it entirely on her terms.
And while she doesn't get so reactive vocally now, she does the silent thing - and I feel miserable for it. I love your idea of not leaving things too broad. Thats given me a new tool:
Keep the agreement narrow! Thank you. Now just how to learn to do that 

[pursuingJoy]

Keeping the agreement narrow is an excellent boundary that works for me, but be prepared to calmly enforce it. MIL will probably express disapproval or disregard the boundary.

We've recently changed up our format for spending time with my MIL. To replace her week-long overnight visits to our house or all day, open-ended visits to her house:
1. We visit her house
2. We agree on arrival and departure times
3. We coordinate activities while we're there

After a visit like this over Thanksgiving, my MIL told my H that "I shouldn't bother coming up unless I'm going to actually spend time with her." We've discussed this in MC, where we went over what her expectations might have been. H couldn't really come up with what she wanted. I've reviewed my part (I was cordial, hugged her, spoke to her, and my energy was very positive, though somewhat gray rock). I feel good about what I brought to the table. Her displeasure and discomfort don't make the boundary wrong. She has a right to feel discomfort and it is hers to carry, not mine.

H is not on board. He still has a hazy thought that I did something wrong, but he hasn't set boundaries with her before. He is as terrified as she is. I contribute to the solution if I stay calm and confident and reinforce this simple boundary.

[Harri]

 

Her displeasure and discomfort don't make the boundary wrong. She has a right to feel discomfort and it is hers to carry, not mine.

Excellent and well said!  The other persons response to our boundary does not determine the success or validity of it.

[trueheart89]

Thank you all for the kind words of encouragement. I wrote out a long replay last week and then my computer restarted in the middle of it! I have not had time to retype it all but I have read through all the replies and they have helped tremendously.

We made it through our weekend with Chris's family and it went as best as I think it could. His sister was very warm and friendly to me this time so I am hanging on to that! Maybe my voicemail I left her a month ago worked! Who knows- I am just clinging to that positive part of the weekend. Chris's mom was awkward and control hungry the whole time- but we expect that from her. At least there were no verbal confrontations about us coming to visit her house again this season.  One thing that I took away from the evening was how proud I was of Chris. He did such a good job of asserting himself with his mom (something he struggles with) and standing firm with the boundaries we had discussed before they arrived. For example, we knew his mom would want to sit at the head of the table. She can't stand giving up the control of being the host. But Chris and I talked about this beforehand came up with a plan. We wanted to sit her in the corner so I was on the end and he was at the head of our table. It's our house and I wanted him to feel empowered to have this seat. I also wanted to be the one to get up and down to serve the food. She pushed a little but Chris handled it very well. And even though we seated her there- she still got up and down and insisted on plating and serving the food which was frustrating for me, but I let that go. Baby steps... She made the dinner, she wanted to serve it. That's fine. I got what I wanted- to decorate my table and house beautifully, I put out a delicious spread of appetizers and Christmas cookies the way I wanted to. (Of course my cookies were not touched as future MIL brought her own and only served hers...WHATEVER- they are cookies. Who cares! ) Everyone left our house by 8pm and Chris and I went on a nice evening walk to decompress and admire the pretty lights in our neighborhood.

Chris's dad came in town the next day. We do all celebrations separately because his parents are divorced. However, we suspect FMIL has been reaching out to Chris's dad about us. She invited him over for Thanksgiving dinner at her house when it was just the 4 of us... so weird. She reaches out to him when she feels like Chris is being "mean" to her. I don't know why. What does she expect? This is her ex husband who SHE LEFT. She moved out of the their home while he was at work with no notice... It's very hard for us because his dad should know better than anyone else how FMIL is. Last year they were mortal enemies... this year they were texting the ENTIRE time we were at his house the night before Thanksgiving and all day before all 3 of us went to her house. Chris's dad was kinda of distant and distracted again on this visit and again, was texting someone the ENTIRE visit. This was only a 3 hour visit... We opened gifts, and then went to a local restaurant/tap room to get a late lunch and enjoy the christmasy atmosphere. He was on his phone the WHOLE time. When I got up and went to the restroom he asked Chris if everything was ok with us. (meaning between Chris and I). Chris was frustrated and said yes, of course! Why would you ask that. And his response was "well, I just thought I would ask. My dad never asked me before I got married and I wish he would have..."  This upset Chris because the issues are not between He and I. We are both happier and healthier than we have ever been. The issue is his family. He feels like no one cares about what he wants or even knows him... It also seems clear that someone has been in his ear... Things did not feel the same way over the summer with his dad. I was feeling really good about my relationship with his Dad. I insisted we go to his Dad's family reunion and I have invited his Dad's sister and her family (Chris's cousins are AWESOME) to fun things at our house a couple times. I know he was noticing that, but it seems like now his attitude has changed toward me. He seems colder and alluded to him thinking we needed to spend more time with Chris's family... I am getting to my breaking point with this. I invite his family to EVERYTHING. We see them more frequently than I see my own family... and it's miserable. We do not enjoy this time, but we try. I put all of myself into these visits and interactions. None of it matters though. It will never be enough and I will always been seen as the enemy. I don't understand how people can be this self involved and cruel... I really don't.

[GaGrl]

Your MIL has pulled FIL into her issues with you and Chris -- triangulation. She is using him to voice her concerns, where he was apparently fine before.

You guys did great for the dinner! Having Chris own his place in y'alls home was a strong move. Just keep establishing his independence -- that will make the next visit eadier, and the next even easier.

It sounds like your FIL was enmeshed with Chris' mother before the divorce and continues to be even after the divorce. It wouldn't be out of place for Chris to talk to his dad about your efforts to establish a healthy home and marriage and request that he not discuss the two of you with MIL. (When I married my DH, he had not lived with his uBPD/BPD ex for 14 years -- yet she regularly involved him in her issues with their adult children. This was a tough lesson for him to learn, but it sure made our life together more peaceful!)

[trueheart89]

Thank you Gagrl. I was thinking maybe he should talk to his dad too...  I do worry that if he does, his dad will shut him down. The last time Chris tried to talk to his dad about all this stuff going on with his mom his dad just replied with "I don't want to get involved. Leave me out of it." Chris did not approach in a way of needing his dad to take sides, but to simply gain advice from his father. His dad knows their mom better than anyone else, and Chris is having a hard time with all this. I even encouraged Chris to reach out to his dad for advise. Not to be malicious, and certainly not to cause more conflict, but a son seeking life advise from his father. His dad shut it down before Chris could even explain what was going on...This is another reason why we believe their mom has already gotten to him... How could he have possibly known what Chris was talking about otherwise...

The other challenging part is how passive the whole family is. No one ever directly confronts one another, or shares their feelings ... It's always awkward passive comments, silent treatments and social media warfare... I am just not sure how Chris would even start this conversation. Also, we are going off of our gut feelings with what may be happening with his dad. There is no evidence that this is what happened... Do you have any suggestions on how to start that conversation?

[GaGrl]

It sounds as if a conversation already was attempted and went nowhere. Hmmm...you might need to accept that and proceed with the boundary that you won't discuss anything with Chris' father that is at risk of going back to his mother.

Otherwise, a technique might be open-ended questions that put the responsibility of asking inappropriate questions back on Chris' father (and his mother, for that matter).

Example --

FIL to Chris: Is everything all right between you and Trueheart?I

Chris: Why do you ask?