HUGE question for the board

[strugglingBF]

I have been posting on here a lot as I am in great turmoil at the moment.  I have a question for the board that I have been thinking about lately.

I understand BPD is a mental illness, and that it should be treated as such.  We seem to make a lot of excuses for some very damaging and disrespectful behaviors on the part of our loved ones suffering from BPD.  That being said, a large amount of damage is being done to the people around them.  It is hard to gauge the scale of damage that is done.  We can tell ourselves that they don't mean what they say, that it is out of their control, and not to take it to heart all we want.  Fact is, damage is still being done.  In my case not only to me, but to my kids, her kids, etc.  Some of which are people that can't understand the illness and make concessions for it.  So my question is...

When is enough, enough? 

There are mental illnesses that cause people to kill others, to sexually abuse others, to physically abuse others.  We don't make exceptions for these cases, regardless of whether or not they are relatives, family, friends, etc, or the fact they are caused by an illness that may be out of their control. 

So why is it ok to slowly allow BPD episodes to beat people down in an abusive fashion?  We have no idea of the true effect of BPD behavior on those around them, nor is there a way to measure it.  But I can tell you it is damaging.  it is a form of abuse, no doubt.  But we allow it because of the illness and the fact that we love and care for the person suffering with it.  So I guess on a scale of abuse (physical, sexual, killing, mental), it would fall at the bottom in most eyes.  I would argue that long term exposure to it can have some of the same effects as much more serious forms of abuse.

I am no different.  My uBPgf has verbally abused me and created much chaos in my life, my insides, my children.  I stick around because I love her and care for her.  I look into boards like that and do hours of research so I can say that I am doing everything possible to make this work.  I fail at times.  Some things work, others do not.  But the enough is enough question is always at the back of my mind.  At what point do I pull the plug for the long term sanity of myself and my children?  Can I live with myself if I give up on this person (BPgf) that i care so much about.  Tough stuff...

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[Ozzie101]

It is tough stuff. When is enough, enough? That's an individual question and the answer will be different for each person. It's something you have to decide for yourself.

I will say this, though: From my perspective, anyway, I make no excuses for my H or for others with BPD. Explanations, yes. But explanations and excuses are different things. An explanation helps us understand where they might be coming from, which should help us know how to respond or how to tackle an issue. That doesn't make what they do or say OK. Not by a long shot.

It's not about excusing behavior. It's about understanding it so we know how to address it in a more effective manner. BPD sometimes requires a different skill set -- like speaking a different language.

Abuse is never OK. Sometimes, with skills and work and patience, we can improve the situation so the abuse is no longer happening. Sometimes we can't. But, no, it's not OK to allow the abuse or to just allow the pwBPD to have a negative impact on others -- especially children. And you're right, long-term exposure can do a lot of damage.

Often times, we enable our loved ones. We let unacceptable behavior go unchecked because we're afraid or just don't want to deal with the fall-out. That's a mistake because the behavior will just continue and will often get worse.

That's where our own skills come into play. Boundaries. Sometimes that means walking away for good. Some people feel that that's more than they want to take on. And that's OK. As I said, that's up to each person.

[strugglingBF]

I struggle greatly with boundaries.  I let her get away with way too much.  Part of that, which is hard for me to admit, is protection for myself.  If I were to tell her, "if you have nothing nice to say about my son I have no interest in being around you".  I have a feeling she would cut me off for who knows how long.  Not only that she will be very angry that I took that stand.  I have to be honest, I fear what her retaliation might be.  Reaching out to an ex, doing some other thing she knows will hurt me.  The unknown of no communication and what she might be doing eats at me from the inside.  To be fair, she may not be doing anything at all.  But she has done thinks like send friend requests on Facebook to ex's she made a good decision to block in the first place.  She has send videos of our past arguments (conveniently only me being pushed to a point of anger, not what she did to lead up to that) to my family with the caption, "just want you to know who your son is".  She is very good at hitting the record button on her phone right at the moment she has pushed me to my limit. 

[strugglingBF]

Hell, the picture that comes up on her phone when I call her is a screenshot of a nasty text I sent her when she was attacking my kids.  I probably immaturely called her a name.  But why would you want that as my picture every time I call.  Especially if you are trying to make things work with me.  She tell me, "it is a reminder of how mean you can be".  Why?

[Ozzie101]

Lovely when our own words and actions are weaponized against us. Pushed to the breaking point, then we look for all the world like an out-of-control loony toon. That's part of why it's so important for us to maintain our calm and to exit a situation before we get to that point. A lot of us learn that after the fact, by the way.

You say fear is a large part of what keeps you from enforcing boundaries. Are any members of your family and circle of friends aware of what's happening?

She should be in control of and responsible for her own actions. Just as you should be of yours. Yet, for some time, you've been ceding your control to her (letting your fear of her actions and her behaviors take the steering wheel), and accepting responsibility for her actions (going out of your way to pick her up so she's not late). Untangling those is a big step towards a healthier you -- and a healthier relationship if that's what you decide you want. Make what's yours yours. What's hers is hers. You take what steps you need to take to protect yourself and your children. It's easier said than done, I know, but it's vital and we can help you walk through it.

[zachira]

You ask when will it be time to pull the plug on the relationship with your uBPD girlfriend for the long term sanity of you and your children. I am coming from this at a little different angle having a mother and siblings with BPD along with several other more distant relatives. I honestly loved my family members with BPD and tolerated their abuse of me and others for most of my life. The turning point was when my mother abused my terminally ill brother so badly that social services got involved which made me decide to go to long term therapy. Have you thought about what might be a turning point for you, what would be the deal breakers that mean you could no longer be with your girlfriend? Would you be willing to share with us what those dealbreakers might be? Thinking about this really means starting to determine what you will and will not tolerate and setting some limits on your girlfriend's behaviors particularly when she is around children. You will set boundaries on the limits of the amount of abuse you will tolerate from your girlfriend when you are ready to do so, and likely it will take looking deep inside yourself to get to a place where you no longer will tolerate your girlfriend mistreating you and your children. You are already doing some of the soul searching on why you are with this woman by posting here. Many of the members on this site started out asking questions similar to yours while regularly updating us, and are now in a better place with their relationships with the people who are the most important to them. Do read other members' posts and educational materials on this site as you think about how you would like to make changes in your relationship with your girlfriend.

[strugglingBF]

My family is aware of our explosive moments in the past.  Well, most of them.  I have had the cops out to my house way too much since dating her.  It is a pattern for her (cop calls with most of her ex's).  This is new to me.  I have never had so much police involvement in my life, and I hate it.  Luckily, my kids were not present for most of it as they were with their mother during most of those times.  As I have seen on here repeatedly, alcohol is always a factor in our most explosive moments. My family is not aware of the BPD, or the day in and day out struggles of it.  Frankly, I am scared of tarnishing her more than she already has tarnished herself to my family.  My family is already not her biggest fan due to some of her past actions that they know about, and due to the fact she has a tendency to target my son.  I love my family, but they have a tendency to be one-sided.  Not that that isn't needed at times, but I dig my own grave sometimes by immaturely participating in outbursts and playing along and my family won't see that part.  I am getting better at "not taking bait" as my therapist used to say.  And I am trying to keep my cool regardless of how harsh the words coming out of her mouth are.  Sometimes keeping my cool seems to set her off just as much.  She will find a way to make that negative by saying, "you must not care about my feelings" or something to that effect because she is looking for a more emotionally charged response (or fight).  I struggle with the family thing because my mom is my closest and she can be judgmental at times.  I actually called her last night thinking about venting and pulled back and kept the conversation light because they are going to be around my GF tonight for my daughter's birthday and I didn't want any cold shoulder stuff from my mom to my GF.  I just want my daughter to have a good birthday.  Excuses, I know.  I'm sure my mom down inside would love to see me move on from my GF.  My mom knows about many of the nasty things she has done.    

[strugglingBF]

Thanks Zachira!  This is something I need to establish for myself.  My son becomes a target almost daily.  Not to his face, but to me.  I have a tendency to let things build and build and then I end up exploding myself.  This is something I want to avoid moving forward, so healthy boundaries should probably be at the top of my list.  And I need to be prepared to protect them and deal with whatever consequences my GF decides to impose as a result.  It seems that many times the BP will eventually learn the boundaries and adjust accordingly from what I hear from people on this board.  I just need to do it in a calm, respectful manner. 

[Ozzie101]

I have a tendency to let things build and build and then I end up exploding myself.  This is something I want to avoid moving forward, so healthy boundaries should probably be at the top of my list.  And I need to be prepared to protect them and deal with whatever consequences my GF decides to impose as a result.  It seems that many times the BP will eventually learn the boundaries and adjust accordingly from what I hear from people on this board.  I just need to do it in a calm, respectful manner.

Yes. Exactly.

For your family being one-sided: BPD is very difficult for people who aren't living with it to understand. You'll find that many of us here have families who don't really get it. That's part of why this community is so valuable. Also, for your family, you and your children are their priority. If they see you (or your kids) being mistreated, they're unlikely to want to "understand" where the abuser is coming from. Again, they're not living in it.

Luckily, my kids were not present for most of it as they were with their mother during most of those times.

This suggests that they were present for at least one of the times involving the police. Is that acceptable to you? Just something to think about.

[strugglingBF]

It is not acceptable to me.  The one they were present for was the most recent.  My GF has since moved out of my house with her kids and moved into her old house, which she was renting while we tried to create a blended family unsuccessfully.  You may have seen in one of my previous posts my hunch that I believe my GF's daughter is also BPD.  She actually fits the Narcissist profile on this site to a T, but I believe she is also BPD.  So for a while I was living with a 46 year old BPD and a suspected 18 year old BPD.  There was an incident where the daughter attacked my son out of anger for me (I has just sent her a text calmly asking her to be more respectful and stop bringing drugs into the house).  She threw a bottle of dawn dishsoap as hard as she could at my sons head from 2 feet away.  Hit him behind the ear.  I pressed charges and GF moved out.  Her daughter is a terror that has no remorse for anything.  Spun it to her therapist, and in court, as an accident.  It was no accident.  She uses people for whatever she can get out of them and discards them...including her mother (my GF).  Now that we don't live together there has been no police calls.   

[zachira]

You are already taking some steps to change the relationship with your girlfriend by moving to separate residences. It must have been hard for you to decide to live apart. It is great you are in therapy. It takes courage to go therapy. I went for years on end and it helped me to start setting healthier boundaries with my family members with BPD, and it also helped me to build a strong enough foundation that I am now comfortably low contact with my family members with BPD most of the time. I cannot put into words how painful it is to accept that those with BPD will never really love us, and that we have to limit our contact with them for our own well being even though we love them and wish so much that they could get better. Woman with BPD can be enormously attractive and break the hearts of many men. Can you make us a long list of all the reasons you still want to be with her? Writing all the reasons you want to stay can be extremely helpful in looking at why you can't leave. Just focusing on the leaving part, can become so overwhelming that it can leave us so emotionally paralized that we can not move forward. We hear your pain and want to help. It seems that what your family members are doing makes it very hard for you to leave your girlfriend as you feel like you want to defend her. Is that correct or am I way off base?

[strugglingBF]

BTW the incident my kids were around for happened right before my GF moved out.  We have a dog together and she took all of the dogs paperwork out of my desk in an effort to gain control over him.  I asked her where the paperwork went as it is my name on his license.  She lied and said she threw it out in the trash at work.  I knew she was lying so I went to check in her car, which was locked.  She saw my idea to check the car, and we raced to where we both knew the keys were (in her purse), which was on her chair.  We had a bit of a tug of war with the purse and she fell out of her chair.  Bingo, that is what she wanted.  She immediately called the police and said I attacked her.  They came out and I was made to leave the house for the night (my kids were up in their bedrooms) because I was considered the aggressor.  The police are well aware of my GF as she has had multiple calls before me and with me.  ONe of the police actually pulled me aside and said, "just go with this please, I'm sorry this happened".  My kids had no idea i had to leave, but they knew something happened and that cops came out.  If left, but within an hour my GF called and asked me to come back.  She almost felt bad I had to leave with my kids in the house.  I did end up going back after venting to my mom.  I think this was a baiting moment where she was just waiting for me to screw up, which I of course did, so she could teach me a lesson.  This was right after I called the cops on her daughter for assaulting my son, which she wholeheartedly disagreed with.  So I think this was a form of retaliation.  A, "see I can do the same thing to you".  Only I didn't assault anyone and the cops knew that when they came out.  

[strugglingBF]

Reasons for staying:
1. I have more fun with her when times are good than anyone I have ever been with.
2. When she is stable, she actually is good with my kids and has their best interest at heart.  Some of the lessons she teaches them, although carried out in a horrible way, are actually good lessons.
3. I would be lying if I said that part of it is my fear of being alone.  I like to have someone to share life with.  I don't doubt that I wouldn't find someone else, but the thought of that process does not sound appealing. 
4. If I move one and leave her, she will go on to repeat the same process with someone else who may not care about her as much as I do.  Her previous BF literally almost choked her to death in an argument.  Their relationship was worse than ours, partially because I believe he was not stable either.  Their fights dwarf ours.  There is no doubt if I ever moved on it would be hard to do because I truly love her (regardless of her ridiculous actions and hurtful words).  There has always been a part of me that felt like something was at play that is out of her control.  Nobody is that evil, just because.  There are times in arguments when she is at her worst I swear I can almost see an internal struggle in her eyes.  It is strange.  Like she is aware what she is doing and is helpless to stop it. 
5. There is a part of me that wants to be the one that sticks it out and helps her overcome this.  I realize this has to be her idea as well, which I suspect she will fight to the death.  She refuses to go to couples counseling.  She used to bring it up.  I think she is scared what she will find out.  She is already aware that our old couples counselor suspected BPD because she found the Walking on Eggshells book that counselor gave me when my girlfriend stopped going with me.  She constantly tells me I am the one that has BPD and that she researched it.   

[zachira]

You do have some reasons for really wanting to stay with your girlfriend. The relationship with her means a lot to you. I am now wondering what reasons people have given you for leaving her. Would you mind sharing those? It can be terribly frustrating to have people tell you to leave a relationship when you have reasons for wanting to stay.

[strugglingBF]

I guess the reasons to leave would involve her actions when things are not going well.  Really, the only person that has ever told me I might want to move on is my mother, but she knows the most about our incidents and their explosive and potentially life changing effects.  For example, we had a disagreement on the way home from having dinner and a few drinks one night.  It was midnight and she wanted to drop by unannounced to a friends house that just had a baby.  I agreed to stop by (I was driving) if she called ahead.  She refused to call.  I was heading away from their house and towards our at the time, and kept driving in that same direction.  She became so angry that I wouldn't go to our friends house that she asked me to let her out of the car.  ON THE HIGHWAY.  I refused to play that game and continued driving toward our house.  She text one of her friends that works for 911, told her I was holding her against her will, and asked that a cop be dispatched to pull me over.  I was not drunk, but I would have easily blew over the legal limit.  I took the next exit and pulled into a grocery store parking lot and got out of the car.  Cops came, drove us both home, we went back and got the car the next morning.  She could have got me a DUI that night.  I drive for my job and have a company car.  I wasn't driving the company car that night, but a DUI could lose me my job.  What the hell?  This is the kind of behavior my family worries about.  The calls to the police to claim abuse when we were having a tug of war with her purse.  These are flirting with major disaster...and she doesn't care one bit.  If I bring up the possible ramifications of that night she dispatched cops to our car, she will say you should have let me out of the car.  Total disconnect with reality.

I have reason to stay, and I have reasons to go if it get to a point of me needed to protect myself or my kids.   

[Friend333]

*DISCLAIMER*  These are MY 2 cents, not intended to deprive anyone of their feelings, and lord knows I am NOT trying to persuade anyone of anything, much less critique ones decisions and beliefs.

The first part seems kinda easy for me? Why do we let them "get away" with stuff? Because they provide value beyond those moments of pain. We know they don't do it because they crave psychotic chaos and are just evil beings... we know they are troubled and they are in extremely irrational states of mind.

Conversely, we don't grant leeway for psychopathic murderers an child molesters, because they provide no value beyond their criminality.

Just because we understand and "tolerate" these behaviors from BPD doesn't mean they aren't responsible for their actions; nor does it diminish the effects it has on yourself and those around you. We all have our own thresh-holds for pain and tolerance, and theres literally no one thats more "Right" than another. Verbal abuse has never bothered me at all. I can self reflect and know if shes accurate or not, and I can appreciate shes not being rational. When she calms down, I can calmly ask her if she knows what she said and why she said it and go from there. Conversely, physical abuse has no place in any relationship, under any context shape or form. Id love her all I want, understand her illness all I want, but the moment violence happened, that'd be a hard line for me and I'd leave no questions asked.  One I know people are going to massively disagree with, but if SO approached me and asked for an open relationship, I'd entertain it after some absurdly strict guidelines and agreements. Id make it very clear that any violation of said agreement would be a termination.  I think for me thats part of the territory of the disease. Impulsive, overly sexual behavior. Its literally in the diagnostic criteria. If they respect me enough to ask, then yeah I'd probably be ok with it. One of the agreements would be conforming to therapy. Maybe appease one aspect for another she wouldnt like. The ultimate end is the engagements are more or less controlled, safe, engaging in therapy and I wouldnt have to "find out".  That one is just so personal though, if its a violation to you and your core beliefs, its not up to anyone else to decide that for you.

I feel like each person will eventually "move on" when their minimum value isn't met to be worthwhile (perceived or otherwise...).   Some people add fake value to relationships due to their own insecurities, i.e. "Im afraid of being single" isn't a reason to stay with a partner, but its something frequently done; which raises the threshold and tolerance of otherwise intolerable things.

Children would absolutely change everything, and pretty much all of the above is moot in that context.

[strugglingBF]

Thanks for the post 333.  You had some good stuff in there right to the open relationship part.  I respectfully, but strongly disagree with you there.  I think you are playing with fire.  And I think strict guidelines to allow it to happen will be walked all over by someone with a mental illness as they play by no rules but their own.  To each their own, and I wish you luck on your journey. 

[Friend333]

As mentioned, it was my perspective and things I personally would be able to tolerate. Given the nature of the disorder, and the sheer amount of adultery posts on here alone; not to mention that kind of impuslivity being a  DSM criterion...  coupled with the possibility of comorbidity of other illnesses, I would find more value in leveraging that behavior to a positive outcome with therapy and communication. I have no confusion or false pretense that this an extremely sensitive, personal, and very typically regulated hard line with most people.  As mentioned,  I wasnt trying to persuade anyone of "who's right" or that my beliefs are going to be acceptable to others.  There is one crux here. I made it a specific situation. A discussion of an open relationship vs sneaking around and getting caught. Establishing strict ground rules, leveraging treatment that will ultimately serve them in the long run, and making it clear these rules are inflexible and will result in me leaving don't exactly feel like me getting "walked all over". I would argue that if she did violate said rules or started skipping therapy, and I was to back down and placate "oh ill let it slide this once" would be an entirely different scenario. If anything Im using HER insecurities and impulses to gain leverage on something I would ultimately need in the long run anyway. Better than me saying no way and finding out the hard way, or her taking it improperly as me "controlling her" or some other negaitve thing.

No offense taken at all. I am fairly confident I am in the minority here, and no harm no foul.

[Friend333]

I dont see any way to "edit" a previous post, and I'd like to add some clarification to why I even posted that.

The ultimate answer is going to always be only you know what your situation is, what you can tolerate and what you're ultimately going to put up with. The standard answer is going to be "Establish boundaries and enforce them". I've seen an issue on other places where theres almost a herd mentality (by no means saying that goes on here, this place seems rather open and accepting) and when the lions share of people are saying and agreeing with each other on one point; sometimes that can cause trepidation to even consider other options outside of "the norm".  "Oh it makes me weird to be ok with that, I guess I have to do such and such".  In the case of normalcy (and in some regards of appealing to tribalism), sometimes other options go unexplored simply due to the fact that "everyone else is doin it". This is actual psychology, and a very real phenomenon that occurs with almost every subject. 

Ironically, even though we have may have grossly different interpretations of it, the end result IS the same imo -> set boundaries, dont sacrifice your beliefs, sense of self nor self respect, and enforce said boundaries in a fair manner. Some may take my flexibilities as a lack of control or lack of self respect, but assure you its really not. If I had issues with it, and THEN let it happen? Yeah that would be different, and completely not what Im trying discuss.

Hope that helps!

[itsmeSnap]

So why is it ok to slowly allow BPD episodes to beat people down in an abusive fashion? 

People who tolerate this kind of behavior often come from difficult backgrounds themselves, where their parents or caregivers would flare up from minor things, so one way we "learned" to cope is to just tolerate, wait it out, survive. Back then there was nothing else, our lives depended on these people. As we grow it doesn't anymore. But a literal lifetime of doing it is hard to shake off.

We have to relearn our coping skill, learn to manage (not hide, not hold, not let loose) our emotions, then we can start putting boundaries that benefit everyone involved.

They may resist, they may leave, or get angry. If they can get away with things they will, everyone does that.

I stick around because I love her and care for her.

My dad recently had a heart attack and is in the hospital. I strongly suspect bpd, though clinically undiagnosed.

He wants his phone to be in contact and pass the time while he's waiting for a procedure.

I will not give him his phone. Why? Because he's under medical orders for absolute rest. I know he will call coworkers to coordinate what he left unfinished, even though I was assured by the uni director where he works its been taken care of. I know he will call the credit card company and make a fuss about being in the hospital. I know he will call a building materials supplier to arrange for it to be delivered (he's building a restaurant for his retirement), I know he will not stop, will not rest, and will get all worked up doing thins he's not supposed to.

Its a very minor thing with very real consequences for him. Giving in maybe doesn't do him harm short term, but sets him up for possible damage in the future, and sets a terrible precedent for me giving in.

Point is, he can ask anyone else for a phone and still do all that, but I will not give him his phone. He needs to understand that I will do what I believe to be the correct thing to do, follow doctor's orders.

Imagine if I gave him the phone and he had another heart attack from his heart still being weak and getting worked up over some stupid argument with a coworker or customer service representative. Even worse, imagine I gave the phone to someone I know for sure would give it to him and just asked to pretty please not do it, how do you think I would feel if my dad died because I wouldn't stick to a very simple plan?

So that's maybe a bit hard to connect to a relationship, but the thing is I cannot hide behind " I want him to be comfortable, so I'll give him his phone which I know is bad for him because I love him".

Anyway, I hope that provides some perspective