His awful hygiene is killing me Part 2

[Before you can make things better, you have to stop making them worse...]

Mod Note:  Part 1 of this thread is here https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=341568.0;all

Our part is- ask yourself- is this something you can tolerate. Even if he promises to stop?

I've been thinking about what's happened and even though he's said sorry and how embarrassed he is, he hasn't actually come right out and told me that this will never happen again. Just the fact that he wants the house to himself for a few days worries me.

So the question now is- what do you want to do about this? Can you entertain romantic thoughts about this man now that you know he is intentionally doing this?

To be very honest, I am feeling grossed out by him physically.  I mean he showered with that sh*t in there 2x before I discovered it.  I told him that he probably got some on his feet when he went to bed that first time and that the sheets could have some on. That clearly didn't bother him as he got in that bed just like that. I didn't make it up and have been sleeping in another room.

[Perdita]

Mod Note:  Part 1 of this thread is here https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=341568.0;all

Our part is- ask yourself- is this something you can tolerate. Even if he promises to stop?

I've been thinking about what's happened and even though he's said sorry and how embarrassed he is, he hasn't actually come right out and told me that this will never happen again. Just the fact that he wants the house to himself for a few days worries me.

So the question now is- what do you want to do about this? Can you entertain romantic thoughts about this man now that you know he is intentionally doing this?

To be very honest, I am feeling grossed out by him physically.  I mean he showered with that sh*t in there 2x before I discovered it.  I told him that he probably got some on his feet when he went to bed that first time and that the sheets could have some on. That clearly didn't bother him as he got in that bed just like that. I didn't make it up and have been sleeping in another room.

[Perdita]

That's the real question, because I'm going to bet until he sees/experiences his world changing...that there is ZERO chance that he will want to change anything about himself, let alone this (whatever we call it) thing he does in the shower.

Reading his comments, it says to me that it's not his problem and he is not ok with you having a problem with it.  (do I about have his attitude right?)

It definitely seems that way. No promise to me that he will change.   In fact, I woke this morning to find that once again things were all over the kitchen counter that he easily could have thrown in the bin.  If he can't even do something so simply then how will he be able to change the big things?

I just remembered now how he used the kitchen scissors in the previous house to trim his nose hair with. I told him how disgusting that is and that it can't be used in the kitchen anymore.  When we moved into the new house I had a brand new scissor for the kitchen - about a month in I found it in the bathroom.  He made me out to be the nag. I got a new scissor for the kitchen once again.  He clearly does what he wants in secret until I catch him out. Then he's the sulking victim.

[Notwendy]

Dig deep into your feelings Perdita. This isn't about him, or what he wants.

Let's be objective -pretend you don't have history with him.

You meet someone, go on a date, and he reveals he poops in the shower for you to clean up, and uses your kitchen scissors to cut nose hairs.

He asks you out again. Do you say yes or no? Do you want to live with this man? Do you want to have sex with him?

You don't know this imaginary person well, so you have to focus on you, consider what are your boundaries? What can you tolerate and what you don't want to.

Don't apologize for your feelings. You have a right to your preferences. I think we get used to feeling like things are our fault or we are bad people for them, but people can have boundaries. You can decide that hygiene in a partner is something you feel is important. This is also beyond personal hygiene. He isn't not brushing his own teeth. He's POOPING in the shower you use too and getting in your bed.

[Perdita]

NotWendy,

Those are things I have thought about as well.  The history we built with people is a tricky thing.  On the one hand it makes us stick things out that we wouldn't with a new person and that's not necessarily a bad thing. On the other hand, it clouds our judgement.  Our feelings are involved.

The thing that puzzles me the most is that he never seems to have that talk with himself about changing his ways.  I am quite sure he will not even be discussing this with his psychiatrist.  He has probably already told himself a lie so big about all of this that he believes himself.   He does have a problem with the trutheven about little things.

His dad's house is always immaculate and I know he would be shocked if he knew how bad his son's hygiene is. Not that I will dare mention this to anyone.

[Notwendy]

He may not have that talk with himself about changing. It isn't the nature of BPD. The tendency is to project this. I know you have tolerated a lot. I could understand if he had a physical illness that made this accidental. Yes, he has a mental illness, but he purposely chose to poop in the shower, not once but more than once and isn't showing signs of remorse.

You may attribute this to BPD, but I don't know of people with BPD doing this. My mother is severely BPD and meticulous about hygiene and keeping the house clean. This isn't just about being messy, this is unsanitary. Yes, he has a mental illness but even past age 4 a child doesn't do this unless they have an issue called encopresis and for those children these are still accidental.

If he had a disorder such as schizophrenia or dementia this might be explainable. Maybe he needs further evaluation.  

[sweetheart]

Encopresis (pooing in inappropriate places) is often quite common in children, in the absence of a physiological reason, as an indicator of trauma.

For me when I was working in adult forensic psychiatry, use of poo as a psychological weapon was not unusual.
In psychodynamic therapy either withholding poo, or inappropriate pooing can be interpreted as unresolved childhood trauma, issues around shame, anger and resentment, also control.

You are absolutely right when you say that his behaviour feels like a form of punishment toward you, or that he feels angry and unable to express that anger verbally.


Pooing in anywhere other than a toilet, in the absence of physical issue, is for me in an adult linked to mental illness.
The understanding and awareness of what your husband is doing is probably psychologically out of reach for him and it’s meaning deeply rooted in an unconscious process.
He can rationalise the awfulness of what he has done with you because you found it, but I don’t think for one minute he will stop, I don’t think he would be able to without support from a professional P or T.

My husband didn’t ever poo outside the toilet, but short of that never would I have believed that a man could live and smell, and be so utterly filthy. Such was his lack of hygiene that his smell made me wretch. He was completely unaware. He has hands were black, he had sores all over his body and was also covered in a fungal infection. He had what I think is called trench foot, he kept the same boots and socks on for 18 months. His skin came away from his feet when they removed his boots in hospital. He spent a year and half in a psychiatric hospital.
I drew all these things to his attention, he was rational, said of course he would shower, launder his clothes, change his bed linen. He did not, he couldn’t. It took me ages to realise he just couldn’t, he would always need looking after.
I know this is a bit more extreme. Yes my husband was/is mentally ill, but my realisation that I could not change his behaviours and that he was unable to look at them in therapy, helped inform my decision to live separately from him.

[Perdita]

For me when I was working in adult forensic psychiatry, use of poo as a psychological weapon was not unusual.
In psychodynamic therapy either withholding poo, or inappropriate pooing can be interpreted as unresolved childhood trauma, issues around shame, anger and resentment, also control.

His parents divorced suddenly when he was 9 when his dad's affair was discovered. His sister moved out soon after. His brother was sent to live with their dad and he stayed with his mother. I only found at recently that he and his mom had to rent a room for 6 months in someone  else's  home and had to share the bed. He said he hated it there and the people weren't nice.  I know this was a trauma in his life,  but millions of kids have gone through divorce and don't do things like this.

You are absolutely right when you say that his behaviour feels like a form of punishment toward you, or that he feels angry and unable to express that anger verbally.

He's actually never had a problem expressing anger towards me.  I have noticed he is like that with his mother as well, but he does struggle to verbalize his anger towards others.


I agree that he might not be able to stop this disgusted behaviour.  It is scary to read what you're husband's personal hygiene deteriorated to.  I worry that this might end up getting even worse too.  He scared me today when he asked me why I have been locking my bathroom when I am not home and then said that he sometimes wants to wash his face over my tub.  Just made me think of my fear that he mighf be urinating down the tub  drain.   It would not surprise me if he's wanting to do something like that - even in my sink - as a way to lash out at me for catching him out.

[sweetheart]

Perdita,
If we knew what triggered a childhood trauma response in adults and not in others, we would have found psychiatrys' Holy Grail.
The bottom line is we don't know why some adults go on to have serious mental illnesses and some just don't.



What you outline from your husband's childhood is seriously traumatic. And we can safely assume prior to age 9 when his father was having the affair that the situation at home wouldn't have felt ok for a young child. A child would have had a sense that things were awry between his parents.

Saying that millions of kids go through divorce and are ok, invalidates your husband's experiences. Finding a way to understand that his behaviour is probably symptomatic of something else helps you make informed choices going forward.

My husband's decline in his self-care was incremental over a number of years. He had some control over it in the beginning, but not now.


From your husband's response to your locked bathroom door tells you that he is not fully aware of his behaviours and their effect on you otherwise he would know why the door was locked.

[GaGrl]

I found an article on adult compress n Men's Health that positions the issue as a mental health problem. It says the defecation in inappropriate places is related to anger/rate and is the ultimate F-U. You might want to Google that article.

[sweetheart]

For me it would be impossible to ignore the significance of his father's immaculate home...

Psychodynamic theory would look as this as very significant because adult encopresis can be linked to anger and rage and the ultimate acting out 'dirty protest.' An literal act of dirtying his father's lovely clean home.

Again for me there is significance that he poos in the bathtub, somewhere we go to get clean.

It was his father who had the affair, and triggered a chain of events that changed the family's lives forever.

I don't believe that anything as significant as your husband's behaviour is ever without meaning.

[Perdita]

Sweetheart, yes it was his father's actions that led to all of that.  Yet he is constantly trying to win his approval and has never confronted him about the pain he caused, whereas his brother has done so.  Meanwhile, he focuses his anger toward his mother and she gets to see his extreme mood swings and rude behaviour - which is what I see too.  The dad doesn't see this side of him.

 I have had huge rows with him over the years due to his inability to stand up to people that deserve to get an earful.   He will smile to such people and then lose his temper completely the moment he is no longer in their company. I have been on the receiving end lots of times as a result.

GaGrl, thanks for that information.  I feel very much that it's a big f you from him to me. I will Google that.  It makes me sad though that he takes things out on me when I have stood by him and supported him so much over the years.  He says I am the most important person in his life and I believe that I am,  but I am also his emotional punching bag.

[sweetheart]

You are the most important person in his life, that's why he makes these behaviours visible to you only. The 'FU' is not to you, it is to his father. If I was his therapist I would see that this is the only safe way he has to express his emotions around what his father did.

I would think also that he is fearful that if he expresses anger toward his father he may leave him again.

You are safe and reliable, so it might be possible for you to  help him find a way to get these issues to therapy. This is key to the support he needs.

If your husband has a P, I would consider making a separate appointment to go and discuss what is happening. You can ask the P to keep your visit confidential, as third party information. I have done this many times over the years with my husband's mental health team. It has even been redacted in his notes when he has requested them to read.

There are no guarantees that your husband can change, or even address this behaviour, but if you are staying for now, it can't hurt to see what his P thinks.

[Perdita]

Sweetheart, he runs his dad's company.  He took over from him earlier this year. His dad is still involved,  but not nearly as much.  He has left him with a whole lot of crap to sort out that he started. He basically has to clean up after his old man. They are currently starting a second company together with his dad supposedly a silent partner.   I do recall his brother telling me years ago that he noticed he has become a very angry person since he started working with their father.

[Perdita]

BTW, I would like to talk to his psychiatrist,  but  I am scared that he will tell him if I do.  It's not a risk I feel comfortable taking.

[sweetheart]

Perdita look at the phrases you are using

'...he left him a whole lot of crap to sort out.'

'...basically had to clean up after the old man.'

I wonder if his encopresis coincided with him taking over his father's business, or sometime in the last year...

[sweetheart]

I completely understand your fear, it is scary, the risks to your trust with your husband feel huge. I know mine did.
You could ask the P if they would keep what you say confidential, and see, and maybe have a think about it.
If they are good there should be no issue at all.

[Perdita]

I wonder if his encopresis coincided with him taking over his father's business, or sometime in the last year...

I suspect this has been going on to some extent for years.  I have had suspicions about him not wiping for quite a while. In fact he has boasted in the past about how he poops in such a way that there's no need to wipe and that I waste toilet paper.  Well,  we all need to wipe.  So how has he been cleaning himself?  The shower, of course.  In recent months I have paid closer attention to how long the paper lasts in his toilet. It simply lasts too long to make sense.

[Perdita]

Last night we went out so he could buy more cleaning products.  He is going to use jeyes this weekend to clean out the drains. He seemed keen on doing it but by this morning he started feeling sorry for himself again due to the time he will have to put into it.

He also hinted this morning that sex will be nice tonight.  I am still sleeping in the other room.  Not in the mood to share a bed with him yet. Let alone have sex.

Last night he also agreed to go hiking with me on Saturday morning. We use to hike a lot, but he has become increasingly lazy to do anything at all - except drive to the same coffee  shop every single day to sit and drink coffee with the same crowd.
 That and smoking weed at home. This morning he complained about how he was looking forward to sleeping late tomorrow.   This is nonsense because come tomorrow if we don't go hiking, he will get up early anyway to go sit in that coffee shop in a noisy center and listen to the same people talk about the same things.  Yet he recently had the audacity to  complain on Facebook how everyday is just a repeat of the previous days and how it's like being dead while still alive. Still he refuses to do new things - or anything for that matter. He makes promises to me about going here or there but when the moment comes, he cancels. Literally at the last minute.  I want to enjoy this festive season as he has ruined too many for me over the years.  I told him a couple of weeks as well that I want to be active this month and do thinks.  So far we haven't done anything and the month is mid way already.

[Notwendy]

Is he pooping in the shower or washing off? It's odd to not want to wipe. Again, if you are with him for the long run, you might want to install a bidet if he wants to clean with water. I don't know if he would continue to use the shower or not but that might be a solution.

[Notwendy]

I would encourage you to continue to focus on your boundaries and feelings. So much of this thread is about him, and understanding him and what he wants to do. But you are a part of this too- you have feelings, wishes ( to enjoy the holidays, to have a clean shower and a partner who cleans his own poop off himself and the shower).

If you can't change the behavior, how do you manage this as long as you wish to continue the relationship.

One is a boundary on his hygiene. If he wants to poop in the shower, he needs his own shower. Maybe not live together, or if you do, find a place where he has his own bathroom.

If he wants to have sex with you, he needs to keep his shower clean and clean up first.

If he doesn't want to hike or do something fun, you still can. Find a hiking buddy. Go out with friends, pursue your interests.

[formflier]

  but I am also his emotional punching bag.

Does this "work" for him?

Does this "work" for you?

What are your thoughts on what you are doing to do with the "punching bag"?

How do think your pwBPD would answer that question?


Best,

FF

[formflier]

BTW, I would like to talk to his psychiatrist,  but  I am scared that he will tell him if I do.  It's not a risk I feel comfortable taking.

Why are you worried about his reaction at this point?  Isn't it time to speak freely?

He obviously feels free to defecate regardless of your feelings, help me understand the deference you are apparently granting him to not speak accurately about his medical conditions?

Best,

FF

[Perdita]

Is he pooping in the shower or washing off? It's odd to not want to wipe. Again, if you are with him for the long run, you might want to install a bidet if he wants to clean with water. I don't know if he would continue to use the shower or not but that might be a solution.

Notwendy, I suspected that he was washing off in the shower instead of wiping which is bad enough in itself.  I didn't think that he was actually pooping in the shower. I am always so mindful of the fact that he uses the shower too.  I wipe the door down, make sure not to get the bathroom mat soggy, I  scrub.  What dies he do?  Now I know.

[Perdita]

Does this "work" for him?

Does this "work" for you?

What are your thoughts on what you are doing to do with the "punching bag"?

How do think your pwBPD would answer that question?


Best,

FF

All I can tell you is that I am realizing how unhappy I am despite having tried so hard with him.  I love him, but I no longer like him.  I realized that today when we were hiking and he was a real as$.  Then I  ended up cleaning up the garden alone and when I went to find him, he was sleeping.   He's useless.  I am both the man and the woman around here.
 Meanwhile, I haven't showered all day because I am still too grossed out. I haven't shower here since I made the discovery.

[Perdita]

Why are you worried about his reaction at this point?  Isn't it time to speak freely?

He obviously feels free to defecate regardless of your feelings, help me understand the deference you are apparently granting him to not speak accurately about his medical conditions?

Best,

FF

Because he is highly manipulative and experience has taught me that when I speak up, he swings it around to people in such a way that they view me as the problem.  Honestly,  this has happened too many times over the years.  After all these years, not one of his family members are even on my Facebook.  Yet I see them adding casual acquaintances.   That's the reality check for me no matter how nice they are to my face.

[formflier]

What role, if any, do friends and family play in his decision about where he defecates?

What role, if any, does he medical team play in his decision about where he defecates?

My question about openness was really about the above two issues? 

So sorry you are faced with these decisions.  I really don't see much nuance or wiggle room left, do you?

Best,

FF

[Perdita]

FF, the way I see it, it is no one's decision but his own. He's a grown man and should know better.

 He is unbelievable immature emotionally though and will constantly react like a young child.  For instance, today he decided that he will not wear a hat on our hike despite the sun and him balding.  He also didn't bother to get his backpack from his brother when he saw him last night. This made the hike harder for him.  Yet when I told him heading out that he really needs to take his hat and a backpack he yelled at me "stop telling me how to do things.  This is how I want to do it. You remind me of my mother."  Of course, he struggled on the 3 1/2 hour hike as a result. Common sense says that he should have taken a backpack and hat.  It's not about having an own way of doing it. The poop thing is the same.  It's his screw up.  Common sense and good hygiene means not pooping in the shower.

Today I really wanted to shower after the hike and cleaning the garden.  I couldn't do it.   I ended up washing my hair over the bath and then taking a bath.  I really don't like bathing.  It is time consuming,  I can't wash my hair at the same time and, I just don't like sitting in my own dirt.

[Notwendy]

Perdita, these posts are about him. The solution is about you. He does what he does. He may blame you or have some other reason it's not his choice to clean his poop in the shower but it is. He does this.

All you can do is control yourself. What will you do about it? It's about your boundaries.

He may paint you black to others, blame you, but one isn't a bad person for having boundaries.

We get to choose who we want to have a relationship, and who we want to have sex with. It's a choice like other choices. Are you a bad person because you don't want to have sex with everyone who wants to have sex with you? No, you aren't obligated to be in a romantic relationship with anyone or have sex with anyone. If you are married, that becomes a complicated situation ( and even then one has choices), but if someone isn't married, they have not made vows, legally joined themselves to someone.

You are not a bad person if you don't want to live with, date, or have sex with someone who does not meet your hygiene standards. I don't know what you want to do, and it may be difficult to own your choice, but the choice is yours no matter what anyone says to you or about you.

I think that when we are in a dysfunctional relationship and there are weak boundaries, we forget that we are not bad people if we have certain standards of cleanliness. It's accepting who we are.

[I Am Redeemed]

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